Ladies First????

[LegendChu]

I believe they exist, I don't believe in them.

Even I don't believe in them, I just wanted to put forth the point that the do exist.

In actuality, there are still many societies which are male-dominated, where men get to make all the rules & women are supposed to be meek followers. In such scenarios, preferential treatment, okay I'd rather say encouragement, like economic empowerment, right to free education, freedom of movement, incentives based on gender etc., can actually be a good thing.

Pika Pika :chu:

 

[Sir Codin]

I usually offer to hold a door open for a woman because I'm trying to be polite. Hell I often do the same for men.

If anyone takes an issue with it:

"Oh, okay then."
*closes door in their face while I mumble about them being ungrateful pricks*

 

[Exodrake]

What do you wanna tell, you have written a huge post and I cant read that huge post so try to say that in few words, >_>

If you find 5 fairly short paragraphs TL;DR, maybe a thread for thoughtful discussion isn't your cup of tea.

 

[Taemin]

Eeh, I say "ladies first" to guy friends when I'm joking around, but in an actual situation, if I'm in a public place I offer to let anyone go first regardless of their gender. If they won't budge then I go myself, but I try to be polite to everyone and not focus so much on their age / gender. I've found most women don't like special treatment, and they like to do things on their own, anyway - instead of having people be awkwardly polite to them.

 

[gimmepie]

:15: why are you taking this seriously?

Because that's what this section is for. Serious discussions and debates.

 

[Crystal Berry]

I really agree with Exodrake like I couldn't have explained myself any better than she did so I won't say too much, but I'd like to stress that "benevolent sexism" if you want to call it that is not really a privilege and a lot of us would prefer to just be left alone, and as for opening doors don't most people hold the door for the next person regardless of gender? O.o

Also I have been given free things by random guys and being the shy slightly socially awkward person that I am in person I would prefer they just leave me alone 9.9 times out of 10. I usually just go along with them and feign appreciation, because if I said I wasn't interested they would look at me as if I'm some kind of bad person.

 

[LegendChu]

Baseless assumptions a good debate does not make. Don't put words into peoples' mouths.

On the contrary, most points made in debates are based on assumptions, coz not every individual taking part in the discussion, has actually been in situations that they are talking about.

And about my "assumptions" being "baseless", that's your perspective. From where I see things what I said about pre-defined gender roles is more than good enough to be put forward as a valid point, because it does exist.

To answer your question, if a woman offers to help me and I don't need it I politely decline. If a woman offers me help and I need it, I accept it. I don't follow stupid stereotypes, so no a woman offering her assistance or holding a door for me or whatever does not offend my "male ego".

I was very clear in what I wanted to ask. Not once did I ever mention about not taking help from the opposite gender.

You not following "stupid stereotypes" is a good thing & I applaud that. But then again, have you actually been in a scenario where a woman opens a door for you or offers you a seat, no right. So what you're saying your reaction will be is still based on assumption & maybe the reaction would be different when faced with an actual situation.

Nothing personal gimme, but since this is a serious debate & I think needed to put forth my points more clearly :)

 

[Psychic]

As a feminist and someone who believes in equality for all genders, I think it goes without saying that women shouldn't receive preferential treatment. Pretty much every instance where women are given preferential treatment is because of sexism. Just because sexism benefits one group doesn't make it good. Most of us are tired of this outdated concept that women are delicate flowers who need men, because it's frankly demeaning and insulting. I want to be treated just like everyone else, even if that means getting less benefits. Most people in 2016 feel the same way.

We should be chivalrous to everyone. The idea of only being nice to someone because of their gender is so incredibly gross to me. I personally always hold the door open when I see someone coming, because it's the right thing to do. I actually believe that in being chivalrous to everyone, we help dismantle sexism, even if in a small way.

I too disagree with the assessment that "women are considered equal to men." While our perceptions are changing and it's becoming less tolerated to treat people differently based on gender, we definitely are not at 100% equality yet. Women still aren't treated equally to men (just look at how the press and fellow candidates treat Hilary Clinton compared to her male counterparts). Plus if women were considered equal, then we wouldn't get all of the "benefits" from sexism that have been previously stated.

But tell me, as a woman, have you ever offered a seat or opened the door for a man (not necessarily your bf/husband)? Or do you think, its always a man's duty to do that. And be honest!

And as a man, will you be offended if a lady does that? Will that hurt your male ego?

Pika Pika :chu:

I always hold the door open to other people, regardless of gender or physical ability. Same with giving up seats and whatever else. Frankly, I find it kind of insulting that you assume that no women do this.

I think it's unfortunate that we've been socialized to believe that men should help women, and that's it. I strongly believe that men should be taught to be vulnerable and receive help from anyone (among other things), and that women should be taught to offer help whenever possible. If a guy can't handle receiving help from a woman, then that's his issue to deal with on his own time.

So do I take it that everyone here believes in pre-defined gender roles or maybe doesn't want to admit it?

Pika Pika :chu:

I really don't understand this question. Obviously we have had gendered roles in pretty much every society. There's no denying that. That does not mean that those gender roles are right, are fair, or make sense in the current day and age. Gender roles are an outdated concept, and I think they need to wither and die. What is the point of this question?

On the contrary, most points made in debates are based on assumptions, coz not every individual taking part in the discussion, has actually been in situations that they are talking about.

No, not when you're making assumptions about the people in the debate. That's dangerously close to ad hominem.

And about my "assumptions" being "baseless", that's your perspective. From where I see things what I said about pre-defined gender roles is more than good enough to be put forward as a valid point, because it does exist.

What? The assumption gimmepie is referring to is that you're assuming we all believe gender roles are good or whatever. Nobody is saying gender roles never existed.

I was very clear in what I wanted to ask. Not once did I ever mention about not taking help from the opposite gender.

You not following "stupid stereotypes" is a good thing & I applaud that. But then again, have you actually been in a scenario where a woman opens a door for you or offers you a seat, no right. So what you're saying your reaction will be is still based on assumption & maybe the reaction would be different when faced with an actual situation.

Nothing personal gimme, but since this is a serious debate & I think needed to put forth my points more clearly :)

I've held doors open for both women and men. I've had both women and men hold doors open for me. Just because you've never seen it does not mean it never happens.


~Psychic

 

[Melody]

I'm not one who believes it's wrong to be chivalrous. However the practice is falling far out of vogue; and should probably be left to strictly formal occasions where it makes practical sense, or the odd outing or date...if your partner is OK with that sort of behavior and treatment.

Is it right to expect such behavior? No; not in this day and age. Chivalry isn't applicable...we're unpretentious. We each hold the door for each other; no questions about gender asked or thought of. We each hold to basic courtesies; that are gender neutral. I think that's the modern day code; ideals of gender have gone to the wayside for very good reasons.

We've knocked down the little things like the chivalry thing already, gender roles as a whole are coming down brick by brick as we speak, and raise a new generation, a generation which is taking our work a step further down the line. :3

 

[Fannie]

I see a lot of talk in this thread about which gender is more privileged. In the developed world i don't think it's either. Both genders have their fair share of issues that are either specific to them or effect one gender to a higher degree.

I've never been offended by the 'ladies first' saying. I believe very few people who use the phrase wouldn't be just as happy to help a man out.

 

[ShinyUmbreon189]

You not following "stupid stereotypes" is a good thing & I applaud that. But then again, have you actually been in a scenario where a woman opens a door for you or offers you a seat, no right. So what you're saying your reaction will be is still based on assumption & maybe the reaction would be different when faced with an actual situation.

Do you define opening the door as opening the door or holding the door open, or both? If it's holding the door open then I've had a woman hold one open for me numerous times. It's just a way of being polite. Closing a door on someone is rude imo unless they made a big deal out of holding it open which has never happened to me.

 

[LegendChu]

I always hold the door open to other people, regardless of gender or physical ability. Same with giving up seats and whatever else. Frankly, I find it kind of insulting that you assume that no women do this.
I think it's unfortunate that we've been socialized to believe that men should help women, and that's it. I strongly believe that men should be taught to be vulnerable and receive help from anyone (among other things), and that women should be taught to offer help whenever possible. If a guy can't handle receiving help from a woman, then that's his issue to deal with on his own time.

I just asked "if" women do it or they think a man has to do that. My intention was never to hurt anybody's feelings, but then again, I see nothing wrong in asking that question.

And again, I've already said that before in my previous post, I NEVER said men shouldn't take help from women.

I really don't understand this question. Obviously we have had gendered roles in pretty much every society. There's no denying that. That does not mean that those gender roles are right, are fair, or make sense in the current day and age. Gender roles are an outdated concept, and I think they need to wither and die. What is the point of this question?

Although I too don't agree the concept, but the truth is they do exist. I just wanted to know if people believed they existed or not & would admit to it or not. The point's clear in the question itself, isn't it?

What? The assumption gimmepie is referring to is that you're assuming we all believe gender roles are good or whatever. Nobody is saying gender roles never existed.

Hey now c'mon now you are making assumptions. When did I ever mention that gender roles were good. I just put forth the question if they existed or not.

I've held doors open for both women and men. I've had both women and men hold doors open for me. Just because you've never seen it does not mean it never happens.

From the time I mentioned "opening door & offering seats" everyone seems to be talking only about that. Okay agreed, I've rarely seen that happen, but I never said it "never" happens, did I? Again, you're "assuming" that.

No, not when you're making assumptions about the people in the debate. That's dangerously close to ad hominem.

This is something, I'll take serious personal offense to, coz its like saying I'm attacking & questioning someone's character, which in turn is like attacking my character. Sorry, not done at all.

I think I made a mistake by editing a previous post, which sort of gives people an opportunity to think I'm against women or something. I put back the original post. Please check it out first.
"https://www.pokecommunity.com/posts/9199444/"

I'm sorry Psychic, but you are making me look like I'm anti-women. For someone whose seen Gender Inequality up close & is actively involved with a community supporting women's empowerment & child welfare, its like an insult.

Pika Pika :chu:

 

[gimmepie]

On the contrary, most points made in debates are based on assumptions, coz not every individual taking part in the discussion, has actually been in situations that they are talking about.

Logical assumptions =/= Baseless assumptions.

And about my "assumptions" being "baseless", that's your perspective. From where I see things what I said about pre-defined gender roles is more than good enough to be put forward as a valid point, because it does exist.

I was not referring to your discussion of stereotyped when I talked about baseless assumptions, I was talking about your comment suggesting that anyone who hadn't yet replied to you was hiding a secret belief in old gender roles. That's a baseless assumption, you had no reason at all to make that comment and had no idea why or why not a person may not have replied. A lot of people may not have even checked the thread.

Obviously there's enough evidence to back up your discussion about stereotypes existing, to call that baseless would be idiotic.

I was very clear in what I wanted to ask. Not once did I ever mention about not taking help from the opposite gender.

You strongly implied in your comment about "male ego".

You not following "stupid stereotypes" is a good thing & I applaud that. But then again, have you actually been in a scenario where a woman opens a door for you or offers you a seat, no right. So what you're saying your reaction will be is still based on assumption & maybe the reaction would be different when faced with an actual situation.

Yes? I think the vast majority of men have had a woman open/hold a door from them or offer them a place or something. So no, my reaction isn't based on assumptions it is based on past experiences. I have very rarely met someone in modern society who actually subscribes to the gender roles of the past, even more rarely have I met a younger person who does.

Nothing personal gimme, but since this is a serious debate & I think needed to put forth my points more clearly :)

No worries, it's silly to take other debaters points as personal attacks. You should indeed continue to clarify your points.

 

[Psychic]

I see a lot of talk in this thread about which gender is more privileged. In the developed world i don't think it's either. Both genders have their fair share of issues that are either specific to them or effect one gender to a higher degree.

I don't think this is a good place to get into it, but while I agree that sexism cuts both says, until resumes with female-sounding names receive the same treatment as identical resumes with male-sounding names, the wage gap between men and women (especially women of colour) closes, female politicians are treated with the same respect as their male counterparts, women start to be the lead characters in films more than 22% of the time, more women are CEOs and more women are politicians, and women are no longer objectified, sexualized, and overall devalued at every turn, I don't think it's fair to say it's even right now. That doesn't mean the hardships men face mean nothing, but I think we still have a long way to go.

I just asked "if" women do it or they think a man has to do that. My intention was never to hurt anybody's feelings, but then again, I see nothing wrong in asking that question.

Asking the question "do women hold doors open for men?" is fine. But then you phrased it like this:

But then again, have you actually been in a scenario where a woman opens a door for you or offers you a seat, no right. :)

The fact that you said "no right" as in "no, you've never had a woman open the door for you, have you?" is what stood out to me. It's assuming that gimmepie, and nobody else here, has been in that situation. If that wasn't what you meant, then I apologize, but that is 100% what it sounded like to me, and that's why it rubbed me the wrong way.

And again, I've already said that before in my previous post, I NEVER said men shouldn't take help from women.

I was just making a general observation, it wasn't a jab at or response to anyone.

Although I too don't agree the concept, but the truth is they do exist. I just wanted to know if people believed they existed or not & would admit to it or not. The point's clear in the question itself, isn't it?

Hey now c'mon now you are making assumptions. When did I ever mention that gender roles were good. I just put forth the question if they existed or not.

But what is the point in asking this question? What would it prove one way or the other? It looks like you're trying to setup a "gotcha" question, but it doesn't actually serve any purpose.

From the time I mentioned "opening door & offering seats" everyone seems to be talking only about that. Okay agreed, I've rarely seen that happen, but I never said it "never" happens, did I? Again, you're "assuming" that.

Yes, you implied it never happens when you said this:

But then again, have you actually been in a scenario where a woman opens a door for you or offers you a seat, no right. :)

Again, the tone you used here makes it sound like you think it never happens.

This is something, I'll take serious personal offense to, coz its like saying I'm attacking & questioning someone's character, which in turn is like attacking my character. Sorry, not done at all.

I think I made a mistake by editing a previous post, which sort of gives people an opportunity to think I'm against women or something. I put back the original post. Please check it out first.
"https://www.pokecommunity.com/posts/9199444/"

I'm sorry Psychic, but you are making me look like I'm anti-women. For someone whose seen Gender Inequality up close & is actively involved with a community supporting women's empowerment & child welfare, its like an insult.

Pika Pika :chu:

Sorry to hear you feel that way, but the comment still stands. If you hadn't phrased your question that way to gimmepie, then I wouldn't have said that.

~Psychic

 

[LegendChu]

You know I really find this habit of taking bits & pieces out of a post & putting it quote by quote a bit irritating, its almost like you are dissecting a person's views bit by bit, by putting them under the microscope, so I won't do that.

Gimme as much as I'd love to take up each point one by one & debate again, it won't serve any purpose, as we've already discussed everything. Everything I said though stays & I'm not taking anything back. But don't worry, I have more strong points to validate my views, so hey we will have new things to debate about :). I won't put them up just now, coz I think I need to tone down a few things. But I will soon & we can continue arguing :P

Psychic, the biggest problem I have with you is you speaking up on Gimme's behalf again & again, even after he took it up with me. It almost makes it seem like you wanna create trouble between us, even though I know that's not your intention. And about the rest of the points I made, as with Gimme it won't serve any purpose discussing them again. Having said that though, I'm not backing down from any of the views I put forward & I'm still not cool with you trying to make me look anti-women (yes I'll still use that word), coz if anything I'm all for women empowerment (prefer calling it that, than "feminism"). And I don't just talk the talk, I'm actually doing something for it.

Pika Pika :chu:

 

[gimmepie]

You know I really find this habit of taking bits & pieces out of a post & putting it quote by quote a bit irritating, its almost like you are dissecting a person's views bit by bit, by putting them under the microscope, so I won't do that.

Is dismissing effort people put into their posts in a section for in-depth discussion to strengthen their stance and/or further discussion as "annoying" or "irritating" something you intend to do in every Round Table thread you participate in? It doesn't contribute anything and is honestly offensive and devalues people's arguments simply because you're too lazy to put the same effort in. I've had enough of hearing "the way you discuss/debate is irritating" from you.

Gimme as much as I'd love to take up each point one by one & debate again, it won't serve any purpose, as we've already discussed everything. Everything I said though stays & I'm not taking anything back. But don't worry, I have more strong points to validate my views, so hey we will have new things to debate about :). I won't put them up just now, coz I think I need to tone down a few things. But I will soon & we can continue arguing :P

If we've already discussed everything, how are you going to be back with more "strong" points? I don't expect you to take anything back unless you find your views change. As it stands though, I'm no longer sure what you're trying to argue so I look forward to hearing more.

Psychic, the biggest problem I have with you is you speaking up on Gimme's behalf again & again, even after he took it up with me. It almost makes it seem like you wanna create trouble between us, even though I know that's not your intention. And about the rest of the points I made, as with Gimme it won't serve any purpose discussing them again. Having said that though, I'm not backing down from any of the views I put forward & I'm still not cool with you trying to make me look anti-women (yes I'll still use that word), coz if anything I'm all for women empowerment (prefer calling it that, than "feminism"). And I don't just talk the talk, I'm actually doing something for it.

Pika Pika :chu:

You're issues with each other are irrelevant to this discussion. If you have a problem with another member here, you come to me, Nah or a member of higher staff. I would like both of you to check yourselves now before this devolves into a pointless argument.

 

[Psychic]

You know I really find this habit of taking bits & pieces out of a post & putting it quote by quote a bit irritating, its almost like you are dissecting a person's views bit by bit, by putting them under the microscope, so I won't do that.

Psychic, the biggest problem I have with you is you speaking up on Gimme's behalf again & again, even after he took it up with me. It almost makes it seem like you wanna create trouble between us, even though I know that's not your intention. And about the rest of the points I made, as with Gimme it won't serve any purpose discussing them again. Having said that though, I'm not backing down from any of the views I put forward & I'm still not cool with you trying to make me look anti-women (yes I'll still use that word), coz if anything I'm all for women empowerment (prefer calling it that, than "feminism"). And I don't just talk the talk, I'm actually doing something for it.

Pika Pika :chu:

Responding to quotes from posts is actually really common in debates, because you're supposed to be precise and it allows both parties to make and respond to specific points.

You asked me why I said what I said, and I explained my reasoning. I have no problem with you, but you don't seem to be responding to my points and are instead choosing to complain about me, which is frustrating. I welcome you to respond to the substance of my post, because you haven't refuted my observation that you don't believe women hold doors open for men.


On another note, what do people think of the idea that "the man always pays" for dates?

I get that some people find it romantic, but part of why that used to be in vogue was because it was assumed that men had money and women didn't. In the modern day and age, that just isn't the case anymore. Personally, I don't feel comfortable having a date pay for me. Usually my partner and I go Dutch, or we'll split the costs so, for instance, they'll pay for dinner and I'll pay for the movie. I generally like to feel "even" with people, even my romantic partner, haha.

~Psychic

 

[LegendChu]

Responding to quotes from posts is actually really common in debates, because you're supposed to be precise and it allows both parties to make and respond to specific points.
You asked me why I said what I said, and I explained my reasoning. I have no problem with you, but you don't seem to be responding to my points and are instead choosing to complain about me, which is frustrating. I welcome you to respond to the substance of my post, because you haven't refuted my observation that you don't believe women hold doors open for men.
On another note, what do people think of the idea that "the man always pays" for dates?
I get that some people find it romantic, but part of why that used to be in vogue was because it was assumed that men had money and women didn't. In the modern day and age, that just isn't the case anymore. Personally, I don't feel comfortable having a date pay for me. Usually my partner and I go Dutch, or we'll split the costs so, for instance, they'll pay for dinner and I'll pay for the movie. I generally like to feel "even" with people, even my romantic partner, haha.
~Psychic

See Psychic, you are a person with strong views, I'm a person with strong views. Neither of us are going to budge from our stands, so let's just end this here. Peace :).

Is dismissing effort people put into their posts in a section for in-depth discussion to strengthen their stance and/or further discussion as "annoying" or "irritating" something you intend to do in every Round Table thread you participate in? It doesn't contribute anything and is honestly offensive and devalues people's arguments simply because you're too lazy to put the same effort in. I've had enough of hearing "the way you discuss/debate is irritating" from you.

Gimme, you are taking a statement I made in jest on another thread & using it in this context, which is completely different from that. What I meant to say was, when you take out bits from a post, sometimes the meaning changes entirely. But what am I even trying to explain, coz you've already decided that I'm lazy, offensive & devaluing people's arguments.

If we've already discussed everything, how are you going to be back with more "strong" points? I don't expect you to take anything back unless you find your views change. As it stands though, I'm no longer sure what you're trying to argue so I look forward to hearing more.

As a registered member on this community, unless I'm breaking any rules, I have the right to visit any part of the forum I want, make any thread I want & put in my views. Of course not everyone is going to agree & I'm fine with that. But why should I change my views? And I said I had "new" points to argue about, not ones we have already discussed, so how can you decide before I make them whether they are "strong" points or not? Again explaining is futile, because I'm sure you're gonna find fault with this as well.

This constant rudeness from your side, picking on me & trying to put me down, is really unsettling.

I made this thread to discuss a serious issue, but I think its becoming too personal now. So yeah Gimme, go ahead & close this thread, that's what you want right, will it give you a sense of victory?

 

[gimmepie]

Gimme, you are taking a statement I made in jest on another thread & using it in this context, which is completely different from that. What I meant to say was, when you take out bits from a post, sometimes the meaning changes entirely. But what am I even trying to explain, coz you've already decided that I'm lazy, offensive & devaluing people's arguments.

I'm taking a statement you have made in several threads and pointing out that it is inappropriate behaviour. That's a part of my job. As for "taking bits out of posts" I have not seen anyone remove anything you have said. We're not removing anything to suit our own purposes, we're separating your points out so we can reply to them in a structured way. Doing this allows us to go in-depth on each point and makes for an easier read.

As a registered member on this community, unless I'm breaking any rules, I have the right to visit any part of the forum I want, make any thread I want & put in my views. Of course not everyone is going to agree & I'm fine with that. But why should I change my views? And I said I had "new" points to argue about, not ones we have already discussed, so how can you decide before I make them whether they are "strong" points or not? Again explaining is futile, because I'm sure you're gonna find fault with this as well.

I never said you didn't. You are completely welcome to post here, or in any other section and I encourage you to do so. I am simply advising you that creating a thread and then seeming to have an issue with other people contributing their views to it is not going to end well.

I didn't decide whether your points are strong or not, I can't without seeing them. I personally don't think you have made many strong points at all so far though, so that does make me wonder what further points you intend to bring up, especially since you already commented earlier that we've apparently already discussed everything relevant. Still, I am truly eager to see what else you have to say since I always encourage people to contribute as much as they can in this section.

This constant rudeness from your side, picking on me & trying to put me down, is really unsettling.

I made this thread to discuss a serious issue, but I think its becoming too personal now. So yeah Gimme, go ahead & close this thread, that's what you want right, will it give you a sense of victory?

If you feel I have been rude I am deeply sorry, I am simply responding to what I see in front of me. However I am by no means going out of my way to pick on you, nor will I ever do so. Still, if you continue to feel I am behaving inappropriately you're welcome to report me to higher staff.

You're the one who has been making the debate personal, if you cease to do so I am fairly confident the thread will return to a purely intellectual discussion. So no, I won't be closing this thread just yet because there's plenty of other PCers who I am sure would like to be a part of this conversation. For the record by the way, having to close a thread never does anything but disappoint me. It never gives me, or any other mod that I know, a sense of satisfaction/victory.

This is the last time I will say this, further posters need to remain on topic. Those of you that do not will receive yellow cards.


Now to answer Psychic's question. If I've taken a girlfriend out, I admit I do often offer to pay. This isn't out of any belief in stereotypes or anything though it's just because I love that person and want to do something nice for them. It's no different than buying someone a present in my eyes. If they refuse my offer, I'll split the bill.

 

[Kanzler]

Sometimes I feel societal pressure to pay for my girlfriend. But sometimes she wants to buy really unnecessary shit and I make her pay for that. I think it's only fair that every person pays for their own indulgences.

I've never been called out on holding a door for a woman, so there's that. People who are actually angered by such acts are probably few and far between.

I think we should drop the whole Ladies First ideal because we live in an increasingly feminist age and less and less people care about it. We can call people who hold on to such ideals as entitled folk who just want free shit and call it a day.