Lati@s

Hm, I remember when I suggested Latios @ Specs Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt/HP Fire/EQ. A beast, really. Kills Registeel before Registeel kills it, same with Heatran and Empoleon. Still, you'll be countered if you don't predict perfectly, like with every Choicer.

I'm all for trying it out for a while.
 
There is a simple way to hit Lati@s with Earthquake, but you have to sacrifice a turn.
Give Bronzong Heatproof and Skill Swap. Heatproof protects it against HP fire, and if they have substitute, you could Skill Swap.
This strategy would work alot better if Bronzong were faster, though.
And I only ever use a Physical Jirachi, which would become more common should the Lati@s be moved to OU.
 
For the record, I support testing it too, but I think this is going to be a lot more difficult than Garchomp or Wobbuffet were. Latios and Latias are absolutely awesome pokemon. I fail to see how they are "easily defeated by other pokes" and whatever else has been said. The argument for this didn't really impress me, so I think I'm going to stay neutral on this.

I will say that we shouldn't rush to any kind of conclusion too quickly - just look what happened with our friend Wobbuffet.
 
I vote for testing Lati@s as we did Garchomp. I think we could save a whole lot of time just by settling it this way. I mean look back at the whole Garchomp arguement. We argue for days on end and got practically no where. We can say what we believe will happen but we won't really know until we try. So here comes my giant cliche - Actions speak louder than words. That quote doesnt exactly fit in this situation but close enough >.>
 
Xairmo said:
I vote for testing Lati@s as we did Garchomp. I think we could save a whole lot of time just by settling it this way. I mean look back at the whole Garchomp arguement. We argue for days on end and got practically no where. We can say what we believe will happen but we won't really know until we try. So here comes my giant cliche - Actions speak louder than words. That quote doesnt exactly fit in this situation but close enough >.>
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I agree and disagree with you.

It's true that you have to see how it will actually do in a real battle, but the reason the Garchomp argument went nowhere is because people kept annoying us with pathetic "arguments" against it being moved to ubers.

I think testing is necessary, but I think discussion is just as important. A lot of times we don't say what we believe, we say what is true. For example, you don't need a test to prove Forretress isn't going to be beating HP Fire Latios anytime soon.
 
True there are some aspects that are common knowledge that need no testing, but if it seems to be a widspread agreement that testing is needed then why no start now?
 
Okay, I didn't read the whole thread in PC, but I did read the threads on Smogon about the Lati@s testing. Basically here are my thoughts:

First, what does Lati@s bring to the metagame?

Latios: 80/90/80/110/130/110
Latias: 80/90/80/110/110/130

Weaknesses: Ice (2x), Dark (2x), Bug (2x), Dragon (2x), Ghost (2x)
Resistances: Fire (0.5x), Water (0.5x), Grass (0.5x), Electric (0.5x), Fighting (0.5x), Psychic (0.5x), Ground (Immune)

Right from the start the Dark, Bug and Ghost weaknesses hurt it as it can't effectively deal with Gengar, and would be countered by random Pursuiters, especially Tyranitar. Heracross would also put a big hole with Megahorn.

No 4x Ice weakness. No revenge killing with Mamoswine/Weavile. No random Ice Beams/HP Ice would screw you up. That is arguably the biggest advantage Lati@s has over their fellow dragons and other special walls, and could be used for Sp.Walling.

The resistances may seem great, but apart from Fire and Grass, most of the resistances do not seem good enough. For one thing, Electric and Water types commonly pack Ice attacks, and Fighting types do have an SE move against Lati@s.

Now on to the movesets. As explained in the thread in the Policy Review in Smogon, each of the respective offensive movesets have their own pros and cons. CMLatios has moveslot syndrome, Specs and Scarf Latios are outclassed by some pokemon in general, and are easily walled.
To add on, Choiced pokemon with a Pursuit weakness are a great liability in D/P as explained by Great Sage, Ttar and stuff would come in and Pursuit Latios to death.
The common counters for Lati@s in Ubers will be more threatening to them in OU.

What the thread and the Eon tournament did not show is a clear indication of Latias' abilities. A minimal number of Latias were used in the Eon tournament, and therefore cannot be properly analysed.

Latias has access to Wish and a higher SD, something Latios cannot boast. Both Latis have Roar, Latias utilises it better able to phaze Calm Minders and such. Latias, as a more defensive pokemon can use Reflect and Light Screen to ppass. Therefore both of them have almost completely different roles.

I feel that coth of them should be allowed in testing in OU WITHOUT Soul Dew, but this is not the right time for it with all the furore over Wobbuffet and to a lesser extent, Deoxys-E (MS still thinks its uber...).
 
Yay, I love these discussion threads. =P

Hey, just a thought guys, could we hold a small tournament which allows the use of Lati@s, similar to shoddy? This would help in that regard. Other than that, we could hold some test battles via shoddy to see how that threat list really holds up. I've been following this for some time on Smogon actually, and I like how D_A has these ideas, Smogon shouldn't be the only one left to discuss these things.

~T_S
 
Simply put, a tournament would not be sufficient to gauge the viability of Lati@s. Considering the small community of battlers (I think I can remember almost all of them), and the fact that Smogon's tourney was 64 people and yet failed to come to an accurate conclusion.

A test on Shoddy would be sufficient, but I reiterate, now is not the time to be testing Lati@s.
 
I think it is the perfect time. When would you consider it be the 'perfect time' pray tell? It's not going to make any difference if we do it now or in a month. I just think it should be discussed, and that list seems to have some flaws, as Anti pointed out.

~T_S
 
As I already said in my last posts, Wobb and D-E are causing a lot of controversy, particularly Wobbuffet where lots of people are against it "taking the fun away from battles", "removing stall", "uncounterable" etc.

Lati@s would not cause as much controversy as Wobbuffet but would affect the metagame a lot. The Wobbuffet testing was evidence enough that the community can only take so much at one time. I suggest the more important issues at hand should be resolved, Wobbuffet and to a lesser extent Garchomp.

Anti pointed out the flaws in the list, but the list was not the only thing that MR mentioned. We already know how Pursuit Ttar and Metagross completely stop Lati@s, and MR already explained the pros and cons of the sets and whether it would be outclassed by sweepers. The list made by MR was to see whether Lati@s could effectively counter the top 15 threats in the OU metagame, not to see which counters Lati@s.
 
I never said introduce the Lati twins to the whole community, just to the select few of us in this discussion thread so we can actually see the 'counterability' of them in the OU metagame. I am in agreement with your points, but I think we all seriously believe Wobby should be Uber and Deoxys-E is too sub-par to be Uber, and it's even being considered for...BL.

~T_S
 
Bah. A "few of us".

Anywho, I'm at an impass. I'd love to say "yes, OU-ify them. But I'm still not completely convinced. I have to agree with Aquillae. Forget these two for the time being, there are bigger, Wobblier fish to fry.

I dunno. I keep thinking, how would MY team fair against them? It works fine as it is, but would I need to make drastic changes?
 
Metagross is near a 100% counter to Lati's considering their only move that can hit it is HP Fire, and Metagross 2HKOs with CB Meteor Mash.

Tyranitar can also come in on Lati@s without Grass Knot and proceed to dish out pain with Pursuit. A specially defensive Tyranitar (Careful, 252 HP, 42 Attack, 216 SpD) can come in and do damage to Lati@s while not taking major damage from Grass Knot.

Metagross and Tyranitar are two of the main counters for Lati@s, I'm not so sure about the special walls due to the possibility of CM.
 
Would that be a bit...over centralizing? I don't care for Ttar at all, and I don't care for Meta that much, especially since I suffer from pokeslot syndrome.

Those aren't it's only counters, are they?
 
sims796 said:
Would that be a bit...over centralizing? I don't care for Ttar at all, and I don't care for Meta that much, especially since I suffer from pokeslot syndrome.

Those aren't it's only counters, are they?
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No, there are steel types, special walls (See toxic blissey and crunch snorlax), Pursuit, Status, the Calm Mind set has moveslot syndrome, Specs set gets walled by special walls as is specs mence(Lati@s doesnt have a good fire move outside of hp, so is inferior in that aspect), DD Set is walled by Forry, Skarm, Bronzong basically any usual DD stat upping dragon counters.


Dark, Ghost, Bug, ice, Dragon Moves also


I know you have at least one of those moves on your teams.
 
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Ah, not so different, then. It seems they might fall from a single Dragon Claw from my...

Ok, then, I'm cool. I had just noticed their sub-par Defsive stats.
 
I've noticed you are all saying stuff about Wobby being tested as wel, and i just want to point out onething: It has great Hp, but is rubbish in other stats, only learns seven moves, and is easily countered by almost anything, as a move wouldn't have to be super-effective to 1HKO it really. With the Lati@s thing, i feel really strongly that it should not be uber if it doesn't hold Soul Dew, as they are both weak to anything physical, as well as the fact that almost everyone has a Dragon, Ice,Bug,Dark or Ghost move in their team. Also, why do we use Smogon's rules? Why don't we just state it as a rule here that Lati@s aren't uber unlesss they have a Soul Dew? You could just do the same thing with Deoxys-E, say it isn't uber as far as you're concerned, and use it. I'm a huge fan of the Lati@s , but hate most other ubers (especialy Dialga, as he made me wonder why i didn't by pearl instead), which makes it a pain in the arss to raise a team of ubers just to be able to use 2 of my favourite pokes (the other is Dragonite, as my sig might imply). I know this is probably the longest reply i have ever posted, but i do think this is really important.Just making a point or two.
 
kiddo999 said:
I've noticed you are all saying stuff about Wobby being tested as wel, and i just want to point out onething: It has great Hp, but is rubbish in other stats, only learns seven moves, and is easily countered by almost anything, as a move wouldn't have to be
super-effective to 1HKO it really.


Your greatly misguided, its which moves and trait Wobby learns/has that make it Uber in most peoples eyes.

Its awesome hp makes up for its sup par defenses, if you leave its hp untouched and ev its defenses.


Wobuffet@leftovers
6 HP / 252 DEF / 252 SP.DEF
Bold Nature
Trait : Shadow Tag
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Charm / Safeguard

With the above, it can survive a Choice Scarf Adamant Heracross's Megahorn and a Black Glasses boosted Jolly Tyranitars crunch. If that doesnt say something, i dont know what will =/


Also note, you cant counter it, you cant switch out =/. Really it controls matches, you try and stat up on it, it encores and you get a free switch in on the other persons poke. You try and attack it, it countercoats you, even status can be prevented by Safeguard.



If you have a counter for it i would love to hear =/


Dont even say taunt, its kinda not going to stay in for that, Wobby controls matches and can come back whenever it feels.








With the Lati@s thing, i feel really strongly that it should not be uber if it doesn't hold Soul Dew, as they are both weak to anything physical, as well as the fact that almost everyone has a Dragon, Ice,Bug,Dark or Ghost move in their team. Also, why do we use Smogon's rules? Why don't we just state it as a rule here that Lati@s aren't uber unlesss they have a Soul Dew?

Which is kinda what we are doing/trying to do now.



You could just do the same thing with Deoxys-E, say it isn't uber as far as you're concerned, and use it.


Deoxys - E is OU now most places.


I'm a huge fan of the Lati@s , but hate most other ubers (especialy Dialga, as he made me wonder why i didn't by pearl instead), which makes it a pain in the arss to raise a team of ubers just to be able to use 2 of my favourite pokes (the other is Dragonite, as my sig might imply). I know this is probably the longest reply i have ever posted, but i do think this is really important.Just making a point or two.
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Well you should'nt be trying to use Ubers in standard matches unless they somehow become unbanned.
 
"IT WEZ L3TS IN DIS DRAGON I GUNNA KEEEELLLL UZ ALL 4 BAN CHOMP!"

I'm kinda with Aquillae on this one, we really shouldn't be worried about these two at this time. The metagame has other controversal monsters to handle and it keeps swinging this way and that way, can't we do things one at a time! xD At first glance, it looks usable for OU, however I'm not jumping on the bandwagon just yet. I wonder how overcentralizing this will become if it is used, just imagine all the newbs using it just because it looks cool. Also a tournament doesn't really give the correct measures in my opinion. The worry of not being able to tell wether they even have soul dew on is another point.

What happened to the good ol' days!

I'll give more of my opinion review on Lati@s later~
 
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