Lati@s

BeachBoy said:
"IT WEZ L3TS IN DIS DRAGON I GUNNA KEEEELLLL UZ ALL 4 BAN CHOMP!"

I'm kinda with Aquillae on this one, we really shouldn't be worried about these two at this time. The metagame has other controversal monsters to handle and it keeps swinging this way and that way, can't we do things one at a time! xD At first glance, it looks usable for OU, however I'm not jumping on the bandwagon just yet. I wonder how overcentralizing this will become if it is used, just imagine all the newbs using it just because it looks cool. Also a tournament doesn't really give the correct measures in my opinion. The worry of not being able to tell wether they even have soul dew on is another point.

What happened to the good ol' days!

I'll give more of my opinion review on Lati@s later~
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I dont think the Soul Dew thing will be much of an issue. In regards to weather or not they pack it.

Really you CAN tell by the amount of damage it takes/deals, damage calcs are helpful if there is controversy, and people found to be using SD will be DQ'd.


You can tell its spec'd due to when it gets walled, it has to switch out.


Lefties and Life Orb should be obvious too.



But i kinda see where your coming from.
 
Dark_Azelf said:
I dont think the Soul Dew thing will be much of an issue. In regards to weather or not they pack it.

Really you CAN tell by the amount of damage it takes/deals, damage calcs are helpful if there is controversy, and people found to be using SD will be DQ'd.


You can tell its spec'd due to when it gets walled, it has to switch out.


Lefties and Life Orb should be obvious too.



But i kinda see where your coming from.
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Yeah, I guess you are right on the soul dew use.
I think it would be okay to let these guys in for a month to test the affects. It would also be a nice idea to have a tournament with these guys! Mind if I host it? 8D Even if a tournament can't fully cover the affect of a metagame...

We do have to decide wobba, D-E, and RE-evaluate Garchomp now that a month has turned. (in 4 days or something)
After we figure out all of those guys, I say we then tackle Lat@s. <- that's gonna be my new email. ;P

Anyway!
I think they could be used. What set do you think would be the greatest "centralizing" in the metagame?
 
BeachBoy said:
Yeah, I guess you are right on the soul dew use.
I think it would be okay to let these guys in for a month to test the affects. It would also be a nice idea to have a tournament with these guys! Mind if I host it? 8D Even if a tournament can't fully cover the affect of a metagame...

We do have to decide wobba, D-E, and RE-evaluate Garchomp now that a month has turned. (in 4 days or something)
After we figure out all of those guys, I say we then tackle Lat@s. <- that's gonna be my new email. ;P

Anyway!
I think they could be used. What set do you think would be the greatest "centralizing" in the metagame?
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Imo the greatest over centralization would be.


Calm Mind/Sub or Safeguard or <Insert another attack move >/Recover/Dragon pulse.

Still gets owned by steel types. Gah WHY CANT YOU STUPID EON DRAGONS GET FIRE BLAST >=[! SURE, WE'RE GAME FREAK, AND WE EVEN GIVE SLOWBRO FIRE BLAST/FLAMETHROWER =/ !!1111.


Lets face it, Latios has moveset syndrome, Tar is going to own it without Grass knot anyways, so meh. In fact, Pursuit in general, ouch.... Its sets are wall-able, no matter which set you run and with 5 Weaks, its making Celebi blush.

Latias i however think CAN be a nice niche in your team, like countering Ape, Gyarados, providing Wish support and PHazing Calm Minders etc..



Why does Wobby even need to be re-considered, its broken and has no counters and forces teams to use Taunt and what not ? I have said this before, the ONLY reason its still OU on shoddy is the fact that no one uses it out respect for other players. Stay in Uber noaw !!!

Deoxys cant sweep for crap, its an awesome revenge killer, but thats bout it, unless everyone fears the Spiker set.

Knock Off or Taunt / Spikes/ <Attack move here> / Recover =/. Ou plzzz


Chomp, could be argued, but the no counters really kicks it in the face. Debatable, but i still think its REALLY broken.



I think we may have to bring this to the Raters Guild to discuss it more however.



As for that tourney, you may be the host if you really wish, but Wifi or Shoddy ? I think we'll need more than one person in charge to monitor it.

If all goes well, i think getting feedback about Lati@s would be great from players that use it/go against it.



I agree, though, not just yet, when we've cleared stuff up about Chomp and Wobby mainly, D-E really isnt an issue tbh.
 
all i have to say: recover + movepool makes them broken enough to do fine in ubers and too broken for OU. sure, they have defensive weaknesses that make them vulnerable to pokes like weavile who have easy access to swords dance, but they can shrug off every other kind of hits.
 
Dark_Azelf said:
Imo the greatest over centralization would be.


Calm Mind/Sub or Safeguard or <Insert another attack move >/Recover/Dragon pulse.

Still gets owned by steel types. Gah WHY CANT YOU STUPID EON DRAGONS GET FIRE BLAST >=[! SURE, WE'RE GAME FREAK, AND WE EVEN GIVE SLOWBRO FIRE BLAST/FLAMETHROWER =/ !!1111.


Lets face it, Latios has moveset syndrome, Tar is going to own it without Grass knot anyways, so meh. In fact, Pursuit in general, ouch.... Its sets are wall-able, no matter which set you run and with 5 Weaks, its making Celebi blush.

Latias i however think CAN be a nice niche in your team, like countering Ape, Gyarados, providing Wish support and PHazing Calm Minders etc..



Why does Wobby even need to be re-considered, its broken and has no counters and forces teams to use Taunt and what not ? I have said this before, the ONLY reason its still OU on shoddy is the fact that no one uses it out respect for other players. Stay in Uber noaw !!!

Deoxys cant sweep for crap, its an awesome revenge killer, but thats bout it, unless everyone fears the Spiker set.

Knock Off or Taunt / Spikes/ <Attack move here> / Recover =/. Ou plzzz


Chomp, could be argued, but the no counters really kicks it in the face. Debatable, but i still think its REALLY broken.



I think we may have to bring this to the Raters Guild to discuss it more however.



As for that tourney, you may be the host if you really wish, but Wifi or Shoddy ? I think we'll need more than one person in charge to monitor it.

If all goes well, i think getting feedback about Lati@s would be great from players that use it/go against it.



I agree, though, not just yet, when we've cleared stuff up about Chomp and Wobby mainly, D-E really isnt an issue tbh.
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I believe, if Lati@s had fireblast, then they get too powerful, so I'm actually glad they don't have such a powerful fire attack.

Last time I checked, our tier list has wobby saying OU. So... we need to clear that up. >>; I too believe wobby is uber. Deoxys annoys the heck out of me, but I guess it's OU, I really don't know much about D-E as I always tend to ignore it exists.

For the tournament, without a doubt it'd be shoddy, as if it were wifi it would be really hard to obtain good lati@s now wouldn't it?
The amount of monitors would be determined by how many people sign up. (yeah, I kinda have already been thinking of how to set everything up since I saw this thread to be honest) :x

Also, to note, we don't really have a large affect on shoddy anyway, just because shoddy has something OU, doesnt mean we should. Our tier list has wobby listed OU... because of shoddy? so why do we have garchomp banned when shoddy hasn't banned it? See, we really shouldn't base our opinions on what they do. We are PC, not shoddy, not smogon, PC. Let's start acting like it.

See we contridict ourselves there, let's ban wobby here already, we arn't shoddy we don't control them, and as far as I know, we havn't established a server there yet. On Garchomp... well I'm currently supporting the ban, but not going to lie, I'm still reviewing it.

ANYWAY, on topic.
When should the tournament be held is the question?

ASAP? Wait a week of review of the lati twins, some opinion on that.
 
BeachBoy said:
I believe, if Lati@s had fireblast, then they get too powerful, so I'm actually glad they don't have such a powerful fire attack.

Last time I checked, our tier list has wobby saying OU. So... we need to clear that up. >>; I too believe wobby is uber. Deoxys annoys the heck out of me, but I guess it's OU, I really don't know much about D-E as I always tend to ignore it exists.

For the tournament, without a doubt it'd be shoddy, as if it were wifi it would be really hard to obtain good lati@s now wouldn't it?
The amount of monitors would be determined by how many people sign up. (yeah, I kinda have already been thinking of how to set everything up since I saw this thread to be honest) :x

Also, to note, we don't really have a large affect on shoddy anyway, just because shoddy has something OU, doesnt mean we should. Our tier list has wobby listed OU... because of shoddy? so why do we have garchomp banned when shoddy hasn't banned it? See, we really shouldn't base our opinions on what they do. We are PC, not shoddy, not smogon, PC. Let's start acting like it.

See we contridict ourselves there, let's ban wobby here already, we arn't shoddy we don't control them, and as far as I know, we havn't established a server there yet. On Garchomp... well I'm currently supporting the ban, but not going to lie, I'm still reviewing it.

ANYWAY, on topic.
When should the tournament be held is the question?

ASAP? Wait a week of review of the lati twins, some opinion on that.
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I didnt actually see wobby was unbanned here. In all honesty that = 100% fail for the metagame. Why should i have to run Taunt and Toxic Spikes on every team i run to be guarantee a kill on that thing ? Its BS and im going to the tier list to complain =)


Hey, i have a good Latias, well, its not mine actually, its Jibakus's XD Haha, but yeah, shoddy would be ok i guess.




As for the tourney, a week should do it. The raters guild i think would be the best place to discuss it. The ins and outs etc.





Also, cant the Recover and movepool thing be said about Deoxys, Jirachi (Wish) and to a lesser extent Celebi etc ? The Latis still have counters, even if they do have an awesome movepool.
 
deoxys is very fragile, jirachi can't do much to its counters and celebi is VERY limited. lati@s can actually threaten their counters and latios, specifically, can just completely overpower opponents with its excellent sp atk, it's speed and one dragon dance, although its physical movepool ain't all that great to be honest. still, it is able to outspeed scarfers that have the potential to OHKO it and outlast hits from bulkier opponents while retaliating with both forms of attack. sure, latias isn't all that great but it can live up to a standard higher than cresselia because of its movepool and recover, plus the resistances that its dragon typing offers and it's ability to bring fear to sweepers who think they can get away with a 2HKO because of her speed.
 
Basically, to put stories short: Wobb is uber, keep it where it's supposed to be. Deoxys - S has only little, if any, potential in Ubers, and OU could be a nice place for it. Sure it's faster than everything, but its average attack stats don't help too much when its low HP gives in.

Lati@s itself, in my opinion, is OU. Soul Dew is Uber. Yes, an item is uber... Now if it got Fire Blast or something of the likes, then I'd understand it'd be highly restricted to Ubers. Also, there's one pokemon out there that can basically destroy the Latis...Shedinja anyone? Not only does it get two SE STAB moves in on the eon twins, but Wonder Guard basically makes it invincible to the Latis, barring SE Hidden Powers and Toxic...or something retarded like Aerial Ace. I guess you could consider Shedinja as a wonderful counter if you protect it from weather and switch-in traps like spikes and such.
 
yah cus people use shedinja because of it's overall ability to counter and survive ._.

and about flamethrower/fire blast: not having them is the only thing that would qualify them for OU, but doesn't necessarily mean that they would be uber classed if they did. fire type attacks are quite useless in ubers and wouldn't make them more suited to take on ubers. it would only help them take on bronzong and registeel who are honestly the only steels that can shrug at them.
 
:O Slowbro gets Flamethrower?!?!?!?
Wow.

Anyways, let me get my two bits in on this.
I think Latias should be OU. Latios, I'm not sure about. I don't really feel like figuring out damage calcs, but since the average set on Latias has only one or two attacking moves...
And yes, it can be sweeper-ified, but Latias's 20 Point deficit in SA should be enough that it can be surivived.
Latios, I'm not sure about. I'm in between, although I'm leaning more towards OU-ification, for mostly all the reasons already stated.

Now, Wobbufett, although Shadow Tag stops you, almost all of my Pokemon on my main team have stat-boosting moves. So Wobbufett can be set up on easily. Two Dragon Dances, and CRUNCH. No more Wobby.
Course, if they switch, I'm probably dead. Thus, it should remain in ubers.
Deoxys-E is raped by Gyro Ball and slaughtered with most priority moves. Without Fire Punch, it can't even really stand up that well in OU (Purely in my opinion, don't UU-ify it).
Garchomp - Well, we've been through this once already. Best not go back.
 
Supreme Dirt said:
Now, Wobbufett, although Shadow Tag stops you, almost all of my Pokemon on my main team have stat-boosting moves. So Wobbufett can be set up on easily. Two Dragon Dances, and CRUNCH. No more Wobby.
.
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*sigh* It's called Encore and that means you're stuck on that move and they bring in a counter.
 
You'll be Encore'd on the setting up -_-...

Also, here's the distinct differences between Latis

Latios - More sweeper orientated with superior sp.atk and atk over Latias, but defenses hurt it to an extent. However, it's known to easily run Scarf and Specs effectively with over-Salamence Draco Meteors.

Latias - Latias lacks sweeping potential, but you see...superior sp.def and defenses mean she's tankish, passing the all-known Wish to partners in dread need of it. Also, she can set up Calm Minds MUCH easier and more effectively. The more bulky Latias can Recover off the damage she takes easier too.

Oh yeah, Samson, here's why I said that if the Latis had fire moves, it'd be why they'd be highly restricted to Ubers. It's not the fact that fire helps in ubers, but the fact that fire helps in OU against the many Steels lurking the area. That's the main reason.
 
ABYAY said:
You'll be Encore'd on the setting up -_-...

Also, here's the distinct differences between Latis

Latios - More sweeper orientated with superior sp.atk and atk over Latias, but defenses hurt it to an extent. However, it's known to easily run Scarf and Specs effectively with over-Salamence Draco Meteors.

Latias - Latias lacks sweeping potential, but you see...superior sp.def and defenses mean she's tankish, passing the all-known Wish to partners in dread need of it. Also, she can set up Calm Minds MUCH easier and more effectively. The more bulky Latias can Recover off the damage she takes easier too.

Oh yeah, Samson, here's why I said that if the Latis had fire moves, it'd be why they'd be highly restricted to Ubers. It's not the fact that fire helps in ubers, but the fact that fire helps in OU against the many Steels lurking the area. That's the main reason.
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Ugh, I forgot about encore. My bad.
I seriously hate that move. So yeah, keep it in ubers.
The lack of Fire moves is the main reason it is viable in OU. It can get walled, if you know what you're doing.
The question is not whether it is strong enough for Uber, but whether it is weak enough for OU. Nice to see someone remembering that.
 
Yeah.

The Metagame rule is not how a pocket monster performs in uber at all (that's just a ban field, nothing more really), but how it performs in OU.
Seriously, we're pretty much all on the same page. Wobby = uber.

I will be hosting the Lati twin Tournament so all of us can see some of the affects for ourself. I will be posting the tournament in about a week, as we have to sort out the whole Garchomp, wobby, D-E, controversals mess first.

Yeah basically, if it had fireblast, Latios would be uber, so thanks for just having HPfire. I look forward to the tournament, and hope everyone participates.
 
Well if you're going to ask it they're weak enough for OU, most people will be looking at the various movesets and viable counters for them.

As mentioned before, Tyranitar, Metagross or any other pokemon with a powerful Pursuit can stop them. Plus without HP fire, most steel pokemon can stand up to them. Then you've got your Scarfed pokemon like Heracross, ghosts like Spiritomb and other pokemon who can wall them. Is that enough though?
 

It's easy to beat a Latias n00bs, go learn to play
 o_o Any posts like that yet Dark?

As always, I do have a 60% on the side of Latias being OU, it's got it's own counters. If at least about 3-5 OU Pokemon counters an "Uber" Pokemon, I'm pretty much convinced that the "Uber" Pokemon is actually misplaced and is actually OU. Latias's 110 Speed is actually less deadly than it looks, Gengar ties with this speed and usually, sweepers below 100 speed (Except Electivire..) are usually Scarfed for quick striking. Now, if this were to be Scarfed, that would be a completely different story. Scarfing this bad girl is hindering her advantage of an excellent Special attacking movepool. If this were to be released as OU, some Special Sweepers like Porygon-Z might definitely get less popular than usual. As for Dragon Dancing Latias... why use that if it's special attacks are completely better (and higher!) than it's physical side?

So far, 60/40, 60 in favor of the OU Latias (WITHOUT SOUL DEW)
 
*Sighs* Am I the only one here who believes Wobb and Garchomp are OU?

Well, in the instance that Lati@s is introduced sweepers below the 110 speed range are not going to drop in popularity as Lati@s can't come in on them anyway.

Lati@s is not hard to counter, the top tier OUs can do it decently well. I won't waste my time theorymonning about how "broken" or "not broken" they are, but I feel they would not have any significant impact on the metagame or overcentralise it in some way.

Just because we are Pokecommunity and not Smogon or Shoddy and shouldn't use their tier lists doesn't make sense. Shoddy and Smogon have established semi-solid tier lists out of important statistics on usage and centralisation. It would be stupid not to utilise good data that is right in front of you. Shoddy is still testing Wobb, so maybe Wobb could be put into Ubers until the situation is resolved, but I see no need to make new tiers or any stuff like that just because of a few members.

Please don't respond to my post with a Wobb debate, go start it in a another thread e_E
 
no i definitely agree on both of them being OU. i've been waiting for wobbu to make its way into OU for a long time, and tho i'm anxious to use it myself, it's clear a lot of people don't like it.
 
Aquillae said:
*Sighs* Am I the only one here who believes Wobb and Garchomp are OU?

Well, in the instance that Lati@s is introduced sweepers below the 110 speed range are not going to drop in popularity as Lati@s can't come in on them anyway.

Lati@s is not hard to counter, the top tier OUs can do it decently well. I won't waste my time theorymonning about how "broken" or "not broken" they are, but I feel they would not have any significant impact on the metagame or overcentralise it in some way.

Just because we are Pokecommunity and not Smogon or Shoddy and shouldn't use their tier lists doesn't make sense. Shoddy and Smogon have established semi-solid tier lists out of important statistics on usage and centralisation. It would be stupid not to utilise good data that is right in front of you. Shoddy is still testing Wobb, so maybe Wobb could be put into Ubers until the situation is resolved, but I see no need to make new tiers or any stuff like that just because of a few members.

Please don't respond to my post with a Wobb debate, go start it in a another thread e_E
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No... your not the only one. I, for one, just recently jumped on the garchomp bandwagon, but... I'm of course against it, and after getting bit by trying to fight for what I believe I didn't take it too well. I sway easy though, and I am in the middle of it all. I never use wobby, so I honestly don't care for it, same sitchu with D-E. I'm really only in the garchomp debate. Just because I may lose some games due to a wobba or D-E doesnt affect me, I play fun competitive play. I could care less about those two. Though, I do care about garchomp.

On the were PC thing, well yeah the good data of course is great and we should of course take, absorb and learn from it. Though, we are ourown community, and that's not stupid to be create and design our own tiers. Of course we look into smogon's ideals and information, we have to, heck its smogon for crying out loud. But that doesn't mean we have to mirror them...

What's the fun in mirroring people anyways. I like that we have people rejecting what we do here, the more debate the better.
 
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If you don't want a Wobb debate, don't bring it up at all.

This is a thread concerning the entire battling community of PC as is. If you feel Garchomp & Wobby aren't Uber, and have some reasonable explaination as of why, go to the tier list.

It isn't as simple as what you are saying. If any other members feel otherwise, they should post up. As such, these "few members" are giving good reason as to why they are put where they are. And as such, decisions are made based on that. If we feel that what shoddy says is incorrect, we will act accordingly. We aren't ignoring their information, we are simply disagreeing. We don't have to wait to see how it performs, we can test it ourselves.
 
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