Legendaries Theory

[Kalista]

"Mewtwo is a legendary because Bulbapedia says so!"
Who hasn't ever read this kind of statement? More importantly, who doesn't disagree? Why?

Thinking Mewtwo (for instance), had absolutely no reason to be considered legendary, and finding it hard to create a coherence between the various generations, I have decided about one year ago to elaborate a theory that would make this kind of "objection" look poor. I think it has now become relatively viable (in my opinion), and I am therefore going to try and explain it in this thread - sorry if another such thread already existed, I did search for one but couldn't find any.
Obviously, any question or criticism is warmly encouraged!

I - Classification

In order to theorize on legendary Pokemon, I think it is essential to precisely define what we are, concretely, talking about. During my studies on the subject, I found out the "legendaries group" can be divided in three distinct groups. I'll call them "Greater Divinities" (GD), "Lower Divinities" (LD) and "False Divinities" (FD). Here are the definitions of these three denominations (and a few other definitions, while we're at it):

Divinity Factor (DF): The Divinity Factor is a power possessed by Greater and Lower Divinities. It makes them able to use their special (supernatural) abilities (for instance, Giratina is able to make matter travel between universes by using its Divinity Factor).

Greater Divinity (GD): The Pokemon represents a transcendent entity (which bears the Pokemon's name), one could compare this entity with a God. The Pokemon is therefore present wherever it ought to be, at any given time - if not, then the global equilibrium would be broken and catastrophes would irremediably occur. A Pokemon can only play its role when it's wild: capturing a Greater Divinity results in removing it part of its Divinity Factor, making it a lot weaker and comparable to a False Divinity in power and possibilities.
Since the Greater Divinity must exist in order for the equilibrium to be maintained, a new specimen of the Pokemon will appear whenever it is captured or killed.

Lower Divinity (LD): The Pokemon possesses one or more divine powers (meaning it has a Divinity Factor), but doesn't transcend the physical plane as a Greater Divinity does. That principaly means that killing a Lower Divinity will make it disappear (there won't be a re-creation as for a Greater Divinity).
As for a Greater Divinity, capturing a Lower Divinity will weaken its Divinity Factor.

False Divinity (FD): The Pokemon doesn't have any Divinity Factor, and is nothing but a strong Pokemon. Most of them are "called" legendaries, but don't deserve the name at all (Deoxys, for instance).

Here is my classification - you may agree or disagree:
These Pokemon are Greater Divinities (in my classification):
Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Raïkou, Enteï, Suicune, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Dialga, Palkia, Heatran, Giratina, Arceus
These Pokemon are Lower Divinities (in my classification):
Raïkou, Enteï, Suicune, Lugia, Ho-oh, Celebi, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Latias, Latios, Jirachi, Regigigas, Cresselia, Darkrai
These Pokemon are False Divinities (in my classification):
Mewtwo, Mew, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Deoxys, Regigigas, Manaphy, Shaymin
Please note that, in quite a few cases, a Pokemon can appear in more than one category. It means that these Pokemon have reasons to be classified in each of these categories (depending on the scenario you use) and that the definitive status wasn't established yet for them.

II - Genesis

One of the most important things that Generation 4 did was wreak havoc in the legendaries theories that existed before it. Until then, every single legendary could fit in a scenario that described the world since Earth's creation - the equivalent of BC 4.500.000.000. But then, Nintendo introduced Arceus and his acolytes, and a lot of people tried to keep the original scenario while introducing these new legendaries. For a few reasons, it didn't work perfectly.
Since Arceus is said to have created the universe, I will try to scenarise universe's story since that hypothetical creation. In order to have something to work with, I'll have to create the missing data, meaning there will be personal assumptions in this scenario... Please bear with me for a little longer.

In the begining, there was... Nothing. Universe wasn't "empty", it simply didn't exist (empty would be a correct word for an empty bottle, but you cannot say a bottle is empty if the bottle isn't actually there, imagine the same thing with universe). Arceus appeared from this nothingness (meaning its existence remains unexplained), and created Universe as a container - an matter-empty, but energy-filled container. Then, it delegated its powers to a few divine creatures he created by its own will, namely Palkia, Dialga, Uxie, Azelf and Mesprit. Palkia and Dialga's attributions were Space and Time powers: they created the space-time continuum so that the Universe could evolve, and therefore escape a purely chaotic future. Uxie, Azelf and Mesprit didn't do that much to the current Universe, but they created the notion of Spirit, which would become essential to sentient beings later on (Spirit is essential for a lifeform to create an organisation and therefore evolve from its purely natural form).
From Palkia and Dialga's action emerged a new entity, Heatran, which first occasioned an huge mass generation (transforming Arceus's energy, which then filled the whole universe, into matter and anti-matter by retro-anihilation - have a look at Wikipedia if you don't get it) and made sure matter and anti-matter were spread in different parts of the universe. Much later, and after a lot of agglomerations (by gravity), planets, stars and galaxies appeared (have a look at our own scenario for Universe's creation on Wikipedia). On each planet able to host both liquid and solid forms of matter, Groudon and Kyogre (created by the hand of Heatran) fought to create continents and oceans. Once the situation had stopped evolving, a Rayquaza (from Heatran, once again) appeared and calmed them both, giving the planet a relatively stable face.
Given the quantity of planets generated by all this matter, a few of them were able to begin hosting life after the Rayquaza stade, and therefore life appeared in the universe; at first, it was a primitive form of life, but it soon evolved to reach sentience. After a while, Spirit (the notion created by Uxie, Azelf and Mesprit) was reached by the most advanced lifeforms, and Earth was one of the planets in this case.
That's all for creation. No, really, that's all.

Now, I'd like to strongly - STRONGLY - insist on a point. From Arceus's genesis to life's apparition, the word "Pokemon" wasn't quoted a single time. Groudon is NOT a Pokemon at this given time, it only is a transcendant entity. The Pokemon named Groudon is only a manifestation of "Groudon the divinity".

I'll post the following parts (Pokemon and Equilibrium) later. Any opinion to express, people?

 

[Post Office Buddy]

For one, I believe that people refer to any "one-of-a-kind" Pokemon in the games as Legendary, since they transcend the other Pokemon in the world in rarity. I think classifying them in terms of divinity is kind of overthinking it, although I cannot say you are wrong for doing so. I must say, however, that the divinities you are describing sound more like deities than legendaries. I'll pull a quote from Bulbapedia.

Legendary Pokémon are a group of extremely rare and powerful Pokémon.
In the Japanese version, there are three distinct terms used to refer to those Pokémon which are collectively called legendary in English. One, 伝説のポケモン (densetsu no Pokémon, lit. Pokémon of legend), refers to those which are featured prominently in legends, such as Groudon and Kyogre. The second, 幻のポケモン (maboroshi no Pokémon, lit. Pokémon of illusions, translated as mirage Pokémon in Pokémon Diamond and Pearl), refers to those so rarely seen that some question their very existence, such as Mew and Lugia; an alternative definition restricts it only to Pokémon not available in normal gameplay. The third is 神話のポケモン (shinwa no Pokémon, lit. Pokémon of myth), which is a term applied to some of the legendary Pokémon of Sinnoh.

It doesn't say anywhere in there that a legendary needs to possess God-like powers, just that they need to be either featured in legends, have speculated existence, or be mythical. I believe that you really mean to define what are and are not deities, since your description is a definition of deity. If I missed something, then let me know.

 

[Kalista]

For one, I believe that people refer to any "one-of-a-kind" Pokemon in the games as Legendary, since they transcend the other Pokemon in the world in rarity. I think classifying them in terms of divinity is kind of overthinking it, although I cannot say you are wrong for doing so. I must say, however, that the divinities you are describing sound more like deities than legendaries. I'll pull a quote from Bulbapedia.


It doesn't say anywhere in there that a legendary needs to possess God-like powers, just that they need to be either featured in legends, have speculated existence, or be mythical. I believe that you really mean to define what are and are not deities, since your description is a definition of deity. If I missed something, then let me know.

Okay, sorry for not making the distinction between deities and legendaries - I wasn't really thinking about it. I was, indeed, trying to separate the deities and the "ordinary, but rare Pokemon".
To make things as clear as possible, I took all the "Legendaries" and tried to make them fit in a scenario, meaning the term "Legendary" doesn't mean anything anymore (it's just a list of Pokemon). In my theory, I think the terms previously defined (GD, LD and FD) is a little more accurate. My goal is to make the system work, and to explain what everybody does.

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

Mew is a legendary - it's the creator of all non-legendary Pokemon!

 

[Dragonfree]

Okay, this is all fine and dandy, but where is your reasoning? How do you expect to be able to walk into a debate on whether or not Mewtwo is a legendary and argue from this? This is fanfiction; I like your idea of some Pokémon merely representing greater divinities and whatnot, but none of this has any canon behind it as far as I can see; why is this piece of fanfiction something more presentable in an argument than my piece of fanfiction, in which "legendary Pokémon" are simply those that are one-of-a-kind and immortal as opposed to all the normal Pokémon that are mortal and reproduce? It's not that your theory is particularly flawed, so much as just that there are a billion other ways to create a reasonably concrete Pokémon mythology and there is nothing to make yours any better than anyone else's.

I am especially scratching my head over your classifications, which seem about as arbitrary as they can get and have absolutely no reasoning given behind them. What in the world makes you think Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres are more divine than Celebi? How on Earth could Raikou, Entei and Suicune be more divine than Ho-oh, who canonically created them? What makes Heatran, a Pokémon whose only mythological background claims it to be a mere byproduct of the creation of the world and whose Pokédex entries make no mention of anything remotely mystical or legendary at all, warrant the highest class of divinity?

 

[Post Office Buddy]

Now that Dragonfree has brought it up, I have noticed a few flaws in your classifications. You put the Higher Divinity on par with Gods, yet there is no evidence that the legendary beasts nor birds possess any God-like qualities. I see that you also state that they must be present for equilibrium in the world, but could that not be applied to the Lower Divinity? Also, how does this explain the inclusion of the Legendary Beasts? And, to second the statement Dragonfree made, should not Ho-oh, and subsequently, Lugia, be considered the Higher Divinity since Ho-oh created the beasts and Lugia is it's polar opposite? Just some things for you to consider.

 

[Kalista]

Mew is a legendary - it's the creator of all non-legendary Pokemon!

I was going to justify Mew being only a false divinity in the next parts of this document, and I will anyway, just give me enough time to write it.
As far as I know, Mew never used any single "divine" power - I consider a power to be divine if it can alter the universe "supernaturally". Jirachi granting a wish can alter the universe supernaturally - it can change things that Jirachi couldn't biologically change by itself. Celebi travelling in time is supernatural - it can modify the whole future by doing this, and there's no way a little Pokemon like Celebi would be able to do that just with its body. Enteï carbonizing ten forests in one breath is not divine - there's absolutely nothing supernatural there, Enteï is, from that point of view, just a very powerful Fire Pokemon.
To put it blankly, Mew is merely the original lifeform on Earth, which later evolved into Pokemon AND mankind. In this theory, I consider Mew to have been a predominant species on Earth for quite a while before losing its predominance - probably because of an impact, or symply because it evolved to a different kind of "adaptability" (in the end, Mew isn't as versatile as mankind...).

Okay, this is all fine and dandy, but where is your reasoning? How do you expect to be able to walk into a debate on whether or not Mewtwo is a legendary and argue from this? This is fanfiction; I like your idea of some Pokémon merely representing greater divinities and whatnot, but none of this has any canon behind it as far as I can see; why is this piece of fanfiction something more presentable in an argument than my piece of fanfiction, in which "legendary Pokémon" are simply those that are one-of-a-kind and immortal as opposed to all the normal Pokémon that are mortal and reproduce? It's not that your theory is particularly flawed, so much as just that there are a billion other ways to create a reasonably concrete Pokémon mythology and there is nothing to make yours any better than anyone else's.

I think the main advantage of this theory is that I can justify it - the next parts of the explainations is coming soon, and I hope to settle it with it. There obviously are other theories, and a few of them are probably "better" than mine, but I'm convinced by my theory, and I want to see if I can convince somebody else.
Would you rather believe that Sulfura, which was captured by Blue, is a "one-of-a-kind" immortal unable to reproduce (making Blue an extremely strong character), or just the physical, weak representation of a much more powerful, transcendant entity? I'm pretty sure the later option is, at the very least, more justifiable than the first option.

I am especially scratching my head over your classifications, which seem about as arbitrary as they can get and have absolutely no reasoning given behind them. What in the world makes you think Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres are more divine than Celebi? How on Earth could Raikou, Entei and Suicune be more divine than Ho-oh, who canonically created them? What makes Heatran, a Pokémon whose only mythological background claims it to be a mere byproduct of the creation of the world and whose Pokédex entries make no mention of anything remotely mystical or legendary at all, warrant the highest class of divinity?

Please bear with the classification a little more, I'll explain why I have come up with this thing in the next part of the article (and I'll probably detail each of these Pokemon's status too). However, here are a few answers:
- Until further notice, I have never heard of an equilibrium depending on Celebi, nor seen two Celebi coexisting. Celebi obviously have a Divinity Factor (it can alter the Universe as a whole), though, so it cannot be a False Divinity. The distinction between Greater and Lower Divinities is probably not well explained at the moment, so I'll try to make myself as comprehensible as possible... If the Pokemon is present on Earth only, then it is a Lower Divinity. If the Pokemon would automatically appear on any planet with life on it (in its Pokemon or in an altered form), then, it's a Greater Divinity. The main difference is that a Lower Divinity's appearance is a local thing...
- Zapdos, Moltres and Articuno, on the other hand, do maintain an equilibrium. Pokemon's second movie clearly states it. It basically shows they're bount to appear wherever there's an equilibrium to protect.
- About Ho-oh and the three beasts, the problem is that there are multiple scenarios. But, no matter the scenario, I'm pretty sure Ho-oh only resurrected Enteï, Suicune, and Raïkou, meaning it can bring fallen Pokemon back to life.
The scenario I usually prefer concerning Ho-oh is that it's a gigantic bird with the ability to resurect things. It lives in the atmosphere, suggesting it doesn't really have an actual role on any equilibrium - it's just there. The one time it descended, it killed three Pokemon - and resurrected them so that they could keep on living.
- In this scenario, the three beasts would a priori be Lower Divinities (if not False ones), but the Pokedex does state that an Enteï is generated at each volcanic eruption [Silver definition: A Pokémon that races across the land. It is said that one is born every time a new volcano appears.]. I therefore tried to see if there was a way it would fit - at least in my theory - and I found one: the three Pokemon that got killed by Ho-oh became exceptional when they got resurrected. That means that, although an Enteï is generated during volcanic eruptions, the Enteï that was resurrected during the Brass tower incident is exceptional - a Lower Divinity, since that precise Enteï doesn't protect an equilibrium but its own interest, as shown in the manga in the GSC arc. If we ignore this specimen, Enteï's main role seems to be to run all around the world in order to spend its "mother vulcano" energy. That would make Enteï a Greater Divinity (Enteï appears wherever a vulcano exists). Raïkou and Suicune would be the same as Enteï in principle.
- About Heatran, its role in my theory is purely hypothetical, but I think it does fit it. Yes, my theory is personal, I don't deny it. I just want to see if I can convince anyone else.

Now that Dragonfree has brought it up, I have noticed a few flaws in your classifications. You put the Higher Divinity on par with Gods, yet there is no evidence that the legendary beasts nor birds possess any God-like qualities. I see that you also state that they must be present for equilibrium in the world, but could that not be applied to the Lower Divinity? Also, how does this explain the inclusion of the Legendary Beasts? And, to second the statement Dragonfree made, should not Ho-oh, and subsequently, Lugia, be considered the Higher Divinity since Ho-oh created the beasts and Lugia is it's polar opposite? Just some things for you to consider.

... I would have answered individually, but I'm not sure there's anything to add to my previous answer. Sorry.
Just, for Lugia: it's about the same as Ho-oh (as far as I know), a very very strong Pokemon living under the sea.

Just to avoid misinterpretation, I would like to point out that...
- Being a Greater Divinity doesn't mean you're more powerful than a Lower Divinity. It merely means that you are ubiquitous - you appear wherever you're necessary.
- Essentially, and to make it simple (I'll develop when I continue the theory itself), Greater Divinities were born before life, whereas Lower Divinities exist because of life.

 

[Dragonfree]

Celebi, according to the Pokédex, appears wherever there is a beautiful forest; wouldn't that make it a Greater Divinity? :/

Also, if you arbitrarily give Heatran a role in the creation of the world along with Greater Divinity (meaning it apparently in your view has some supernatural role undescribed by any canon), then it essentially undermines the whole idea. Either you use canon to determine what sort of role a legendary has or you don't. If you can give Heatran Greater Divinity despite it having none in canon, then why not Mew, or Manaphy, or Deoxys, or whatever? It turns the whole thing arbitrary. Of course you can believe that, but you can't defend it as being a superior theory on the basis that it is justified by canon.

I must also find the idea that Entei is normally an abundant Greater Divinity but also exists as a one-of-a-kind Lower Divinity very, very odd, but eh. :/

(And what's with "Enteï" and "Raïkou"?)

 

[txteclipse]

Legendary = worthy of legend. This status is assigned usually pertaining to rarity, power, or a combination of both. Therefore, I think that all pokemon currently considered "legends" by the majority of the populace are as such.

 

[Kalista]

Okay, this post will contain both my answers to your reflexions, and the end of my theory... Here goes.

Celebi, according to the Pokédex, appears wherever there is a beautiful forest; wouldn't that make it a Greater Divinity? :/

It would possibly make it a Greater Divinity, but there are a few points that make me hesitate to give it this status. Here they are:
- "Revered as the guardian of the forest, Celebi appears wherever beautiful forests exist." That's the exact Pokedex definition (Crystal version). I'll insist particularly on "Celebi". Not "a Celebi". You could say that's just playing with words, and I would if there was no other reason to doubt Celebi's Greater Divinity. But the fact that the word "Celebi" is used alone could mean that Celebi simply appears in a lot of different places because it travels between places at the same time as between time frames. That would make sense since an item is usually needed to call Celebi, even at places where it supposedly lives.
- Celebi's power looks very specific to me. It can travel through time, and it seems to be fighting for the greater good (it resurrected an human just because that was a "good" thing to to). It doesn't have a definite role outside of this moral quest, and I think it is one of the only Pokemon in such an unusual case. That, in my opinion, makes it non-objective, biaised towards Mankind. That leads me to think that Celebi was created by a common wish, directly by Mankind (as is the case for Jirachi), to protect the greater good. And something created by Mankind surely isn't a Greater Divinity.
Another possibility is that Celebi is a pre-existant entity, that was summoned by Mankind. But then, what is Celebi's original purpose?

Also, if you arbitrarily give Heatran a role in the creation of the world along with Greater Divinity (meaning it apparently in your view has some supernatural role undescribed by any canon), then it essentially undermines the whole idea. Either you use canon to determine what sort of role a legendary has or you don't. If you can give Heatran Greater Divinity despite it having none in canon, then why not Mew, or Manaphy, or Deoxys, or whatever? It turns the whole thing arbitrary. Of course you can believe that, but you can't defend it as being a superior theory on the basis that it is justified by canon.

The problem with Heatran is multiple.
Firstly, it doesn't have any appearance in any canon (meaning data sources about Heatran are extremely rare - and therefore meaning that, for now, anyone can claim anything about Heatran and get away with it).
Secondly, it was created by Palkia and Dialga when they did their stuff.
Thirdly, there is an "hole" in the scenario I'm using, and that hole is the creation of matter. In my opinion, Heatran fits perfectly in this hole. YES, I make a personal assumption, but I don't see any other Pokemon that would fit more than Heatran here.
Once again, this is a personal theory. I don't think it's a "completely true" theory, but at the very least I consider it to be, as of now, a valid modelisation of the Pokemon mythology.

I must also find the idea that Entei is normally an abundant Greater Divinity but also exists as a one-of-a-kind Lower Divinity very, very odd, but eh. :/

That's probably because we're not used to Pokemon death. The point is that, when Entei was killed, it lost its Divinity Factor (which was transfered to another Entei), but then it got resurrected and couldn't take it back. The same goes for Suicune and Raikou.

(And what's with "Enteï" and "Raïkou"?)

Sorry about that, it's mainly caused by the fact that, in France, we usually accentuate names (and we usually pronounce "hen-tei-i" and "rai-i-kou").

Legendary = worthy of legend. This status is assigned usually pertaining to rarity, power, or a combination of both. Therefore, I think that all pokemon currently considered "legends" by the majority of the populace are as such.

Okay. If you use that definition, Lucario, Rotom and Arcanine all fit the role. That's not a sufficient definition.

And now, here are the last three parts of my theory. Sorry for not posting everything at once: now, I think it is complete. Don't forget: this is a personal theories, there are assumptions in this text that only relate to my personal judgement. Whether you like (and/or agree with) them or not is up to you.

III - Pokemon

Once life had appeared on Earth, it quickly evolved to what I call the "Mew era": the world was filled with Mew. Then, by natural selection, the Mew population diversified, resulting in a lot of different "Mew species": the Pokemon. One of these species aquired two hands via evolution, and it eventually led it to civilisation: that's Man. For some reason (probably a cataclysm, or simply by natural selection), the remaining Mew population quickly decreased, to the point where it was thought of as a "legend" and/or an "unique" Pokemon.
The human civilisation then separated from the "wild Pokemon" world, and Man slowly started to forget about its common origins with the Pokemon, starting to use Apricorns (and later Poké Balls) to domesticate Pokemon. That was the begining of world domination by humans.
There probably isn't much more to say about Pokemon and humans that would be relevent in this article.

IV - Equilibrium

When the Universe started to host civilisations (including Mankind), each of these civilisations influenced the energetic balance between Fire, Thunder and Ice energy at a local scale (for instance, Mankind disturbed Earth's energy balance).
At the same time, the energy balance got disturbed by nature itself at other locations (for instance, vulcanoes appeared spontaneously because of Earth's structure).
These perturbations summoned Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres: these three Greater Divinities (which existed since matter's appearance, and were probably created by Heatran) intervene wherever Ice, Fire or Thunder energy reach too high values. Their main role is to regulate these energies, and that's the reason why, for instance, Zapdos can be found in electric plants.
The three "beasts" (Enteï, Suicune and Raïkou) most probably have a relatively similar role, but while Zapdos, Moltres and Articuno stay in places where the energy is constantly generated, Enteï, Suicune and Raïkou are constantly moving to regulate energy surges (for instance, Raïkou guides thunderstorms and canalises them).
These six Greater Divinities (Zapdos, Raïkou, Moltres, Enteï, Articuno and Suicune) are here to make sure the Universe remains equilibrated. I'd like to point out that Moltres (for instance) most probably manifests in the stars too, but not in a Pokemon form.

V - Complete classification

Here, I am going to describe each legendary's status in my theory, and explain why I have given it this status.

Articuno - Greater Divinity, Equilibrium maintenance (fixed points)
Articuno, as one of the three "Legendary Birds", is responsible for maintaining Ice energy at regulated levels wherever Ice energy is constantly generated. It is known to exist in a few locations of the Pokemon worlds.

Zapdos - Greater Divinity, Equilibrium maintenance (fixed points)
Zapdos is responsible for maintaining Thunder energy at regulated levels in places where Thunder energy is constantly generated. Unlike Articuno and Moltres, Zapdos's appearance on Earth was directly caused by Man when it started to create power plants.

Moltres - Greater Divinity, Equilibrium maintenance (fixed points)
Moltres maintains Fire energy at regulated levels in places where it is constantly generated (vulcanoes). It is known to exist in a few locations of the Pokemon worlds.

Mewtwo - False Divinity, Artificial life (obtained by cloning Mew)
Mewtwo is the first and last specimen of Mew clones, created by a scientific team for relatively wrong reasons (in the manga canon, it was created by the Team Rocket). It proved to be extremely intelligent and very high powered, but it doesn't actually have any supernatural power.

Mew - False Divinity, Common ancester (first evolved lifeform on Earth)
Mew was the first lifeform to attain Spirit on Earth, and it is the remotest common ancester of both Man and Pokemon. It is not known whether the pink Pokemon we all know was the original form of Mew, or if Mew evolved to this form, but no matter the case there are only few Mew remaining as of now.

Raïkou - Greater Divinity, Equilibrium maintenance (moving points)
A Raïkou appears (either spontaneously, or by coming from a precedent location) whenever a thunderstorm forms, and regulates the Thunder energy level in order to maintain the equilibrium. Given the number of thunderstorms constantly occuring in the world, there probably are more than one wild Raïkou at any given time.

Enteï - Greater Divinity, Equilibrium maintenance (moving points)
An Enteï appears in a similar fashion as a Raïkou, whenever a vulcano explodes, and regulates the Fire energy level locally in order to maintain the equilibrium. There probably aren't as many wild Enteï at any given time as there are Raïkou and Suicune, since vulcanic eruptions are much rarer than thunderstorms and snow storms.

Suicune - Greater Divinity, Equilibrium maintenance (moving points) and Pollution dissolver
Suicune, unlike Raïkou and Enteï, has two distinct attributions. Not only does it appear whenever there is a snow storm to regulate Ice energy levels, but it also depollutes water sources in its path.

Raïkou* - Lower Divinity, Victim of the Brass Tower Incident (resurrected by Ho-oh)
This entry is for the Raïkou that died in the Brass Tower Incident only. After dying (and therefore losing part of its Divinity Factor), Raïkou was brought back to life by Ho-oh and fought against Team Rocket with Major Bob, ultimately trying to save Celebi from the Icemask.

Enteï* - Lower Divinity, Victim of the Brass Tower Incident (resurrected by Ho-oh)
This entry is for the Enteï that died in the Brass Tower Incident only. Having been killed during the Brass Tower Incident, Enteï was resurrected in its dimished form by Ho-oh. It started fighting against the Icemask, and ended up teaming up with August (who needed his help to cure his mutation, as well as Mewtwo's).

Suicune* - Lower Divinity, Victim of the Brass Tower Incident (resurrected by Ho-oh)
This entry is for the Suicune that died in the Brass Tower Incident only. Suicune got killed in the Brass Tower Incident, but was brought back to life by Ho-oh. It soon started travelling across Johto, meeting and fighting against many trainers, including Crystal and Misty, which it eventually deemed dign to fight by its side agains the Icemask.

Ho-oh - Lower Divinity, Guardian of the Sky
Ho-oh is one of the two Pokemon that live in the high atmosphere, along with Rayquaza. However, while I consider Rayquaza to be a Greater Divinity present on any planet on which Groudon and Kyogre are present, Ho-oh is a Pokemon that exists because of life on Earth (and it protects it adamantly, as long as it is wild, that is). It has the power to resurrect fallen Pokemon or humans, but only a short while after death occured (otherwise, Icemask wouldn't have needed to use Celebi). Its feathers bear temporal proprieties (probably linked to its Divinity Factor) necessary to create the GS Ball.

Lugia - Lower Divinity, Guardian of the Sea
Lugia is a very powerful Pokemon that usually lives hidden in the Ocean. It seems to be able to calm Zapdos, Articuno and Moltres when they reach critical energy levels. Its feathers bear temporal proprieties (probably linked to its Divinity Factor) necessary to create the GS Ball.

Celebi - Lower Divinity, Time traveller
Celebi is the only Pokemon able to move between time frames and to bring other lifeforms with it. It seems that it was created to look after life on Earth (in a similar way to Ho-oh and, possibly, Lugia).
The Icemask tried to use it to resurrect his two late Lapras, but the process was interrupted by Gold, and the Icemask was trapped in the time frame they were visiting (without the GS Ball, returning to present was apparently not something he could do). For some reason, however, Gold did escape the time frame (I don't remember if he had the feathers used to create the GS Ball, but that could justify that fact).

Regirock - either Lower Divinity or False Divinity
Little is known about its possible Divinity Factor... Either way, this Pokemon most probably was created by humans or for humans (it is depicted in ancient legends as a protector). Regirock was probably created in a desert or montaneous landscape.

Regice - either Lower Divinity or False Divinity
Little is known about its possible Divinity Factor... Either way, this Pokemon most probably was created by humans or for humans (it is depicted in ancient legends as a protector). Regice was probably created in an icy landscape (which suggests that it didn't originally live in Hoenn, since Hoenn is a rather warm land).

Registeel - either Lower Divinity or False Divinity
Little is known about its possible Divinity Factor... Either way, this Pokemon most probably was created by humans or for humans (it is depicted in ancient legends as a protector). Registeel was probably created in a montaneous landscape.

Latias - Lower Divinity, Protector of Alto Mare
I choose to make Latias a Lower Divinity (and not a False Divinity) mainly because of Latios's intervention at the end of Pokemon Heroes (he stopped a whole tsunami, I don't think that could be reduced to just a psychic power...).
That Pokemon was seemingly created to protect a large population at Alto Mare, a southern island. Her Divinity Factor mainly manifests in her ability to communicate with Latios (Shared Vision).

Latios - Lower Divinity, Protector of Alto Mare
I choose to make Latios a Lower Divinity (and not a False Divinity) mainly because of his intervention at the end of Pokemon Heroes (he stopped a whole tsunami, I don't think that could be reduced to just a psychic power...).
That Pokemon was seemingly created to protect a large population at Alto Mare, a southern island. His Divinity Factor mainly manifests in his ability to communicate with Latias (Shared Vision).

Kyogre - Greater Divinity, Liquid element
Kyogre represents the liquid part of a planet's surface. As long as it is awakened, it will raise the total liquid volume on this planet's surface. It usually fights against Groudon, its polar opposite, and will eventually be calmed by Rayquaza.

Groudon - Greater Divinity, Solid element
Groudon represents the solid part of a planet's surface. As long as it is awakened, it will lower the total liquid volume on this planet's surface. It usually fights against Kyogre, its polar opposite, and will eventually be calmed by Rayquaza.

Rayquaza - Greater Divinity, Guardian of the Sky
Rayquaza is the Greater Divinity that calms Kyogre and Groudon once their battle reaches a status quo. Independently, it protects the planet from external invaders (on Earth, it probably uses the help of Ho-oh in some situations).

Jirachi - Lower Divinity
Jirachi was probably created by a lot of human wishes. It is able to grant wishes to those who can see him awakened - the fact that the wish will be granted, seemingly, no matter what makes me think of him as a Lower Divinity.

Deoxys - False Divinity, Creature from outer space
Deoxys is just an other lifeform than the one which appeared on Earth (it comes from outer space, that's the reason why Raquaza attacks it on sight). It took on a Pokemon shape when attacking Earth, probably to increase its power against Pokemon opponnents.

Uxie - Greater Divinity, Creator of Knowledge (one of the three components of Spirit)
One of the three creators of the Spirit, a prerequisite to any form of civilisation.

Mesprit - Greater Divinity, Creator of Emotions (one of the three components of Spirit)
One of the three creators of the Spirit, a prerequisite to any form of civilisation.

Azelf - Greater Divinity, Creator of Will (one of the three components of Spirit)
One of the three creators of the Spirit, a prerequisite to any form of civilisation.

Dialga - Greater Divinity, Creator of Time (one of two components of the Space-Time continuum)
With Palkia, it created the Space-Time continuum so that the Universe could escape its chaotic, original form.

Palkia - Greater Divinity, Creator of Space (one of two components of the Space-Time continuum)
With Dialga, it created the Space-Time continuum so that the Universe could escape its chaotic, original form.

Giratina - Greater Divinity, Multiverse traveller
It supposedly controls dimensions, but that's a pretty lousy explanation in my opinion (especially since the Space-Time continuum contains dimensions by nature - hell, space and time ARE dimensions themselves). I prefer to consider it to be an external divinity - external to the Universe the Pokemon world is set in itself. Giratina would, however, be able to move between universes. In this hypothesis, there are two main possibilities: either Arceus created more than one universe (and he actually created a Multiverse, one of which contained Giratina), or Arceus and Giratina are on a similar divinity level, having created one universe each (that would mean that Arceus and Giratina are in fact very similar, and that Arceus is pretty probably able to move between universes too).

Cresselia - either Lower Divinity or False Divinity, Incarnation of Dreams
She represents the dream world. She's probably just a creation of Mankind to explain why they had dreams. Sorry, she's one of these Pokemon I don't know very well yet, so I cannot pronounce about her being a LD or a FD.

Darkrai - either Lower Divinity or False Divinity, Incarnation of Nightmares
Cresselia's polar opposite, it represents nightmares. Probably created in a similar way, the local folklore gave it its powers by mutual hypnosis (people believe it can make them fall sleep, so they sleep; Darkrai believes it does actually have the power, and Mankind actually gives it to it). Its Divinitiy Factor (if proved) would reside in the fact that it can move in the dream world (and bring people in it), but I'm not convinced.

Regigigas - either Lower Divinity or False Divinity
It supposedly moved the continents around once Groudon was done. I don't place it in the Greater Divinities because I think it started existing after life appeared on Earth (and supposedly, in this hypothesis, only on Earth). If it had existed before life, it wouldn't have been known to have moved continents around as it is...
The other possibility is that Regigigas is only believed to have moved the continents around, and is in fact just a very big Pokemon.
I'll have to conduct come researches about its link with Regirock, Regice and Registeel, because it's quite unclear for now...

Heatran - Greater Divinity, Creator of Matter (via retro-anihilation)
It created matter, and made material life possible in the Universe. At the same time, it generated other Greater Divinities (Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza).

Manaphy - False Divinity, so-called Prince of the Sea
Manaphy, as far as I know, only posseses a pseudo divine power - Heart Swap. I don't think such a power can be called divine, since a well trained psychic Pokemon could perform such a trick.

Shaymin - either Lower Divinity or False Divinity
Shaymin might have a Divinity Factor (it's supposedly able to depollute any given area and to change it into a flowery area), but I'll have to conduct some research on him in order to be sure.

Arceus - Greater Divinity, Creator of the Universe
It created the Universe! Cool, ain't it?

And... Well, that's all folks? Questions, reflexions?

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

Hah. This all depends on what you think of the history of the Pokemon world.
Mine...

Arceus created Mew to help him create the Pokemon of the world.

Firstly, Dialga, Palkia (and Giratina?) were created to change the "nothingness" into the "universe" with lumps of matter and stuff. Then, their job done, they went to sleep. Celebi was created to keep time in shape while Dialga and Palkia slept.

Then, Kyogre and Groudon (Rayquazza too?) were created to create the planets with their land and water. They slept afterwards too.

Then, Ho-oh and Lugia were created to create stars (making suns) and moons.

Then, the Regis were made to fix up the lands that Groudon had smacked up. They slept.

After that, Arceus and Mew created animals using parts of their DNA. Mesprit, Uxie, Azelf, Jirachi, Cresselia and Darkrai were created to enhance these animals lives with knowledge, feelings, dreams, etc.

The other Legendaries (Latios, Latias, Shaymin, the Birds, the Beasts and Heatran) were made to guard the stuff as Arceus slept.

The animals created by Arceus evolved slowly into Pokemon and humans, while some stayed the same.

So, under MY historical thinking...

Higher Divinities
Arceus, Mew, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquazza, Ho-oh, Lugia, Regigigas, Mesprit, Uxie, Azelf, Jirachi, Cresselia and Darkrai.

Lower Divinities
Latios, Latias, Shaymin, Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Entei, Suicun, Raikou and Heatran.

False Divinities
Mewtwo, Jirachi, Deoxys

 

[Kalista]

Okay, that's your theory. It doesn't work (I mean, physically it doesn't work, even if we forget about Pokemon for a while).

Firstly, Dialga, Palkia (and Giratina?) were created to change the "nothingness" into the "universe" with lumps of matter and stuff. Then, their job done, they went to sleep. Celebi was created to keep time in shape while Dialga and Palkia slept.

Then, Kyogre and Groudon (Rayquazza too?) were created to create the planets with their land and water. They slept afterwards too.

Then, Ho-oh and Lugia were created to create stars (making suns) and moons.

So, according to "your theory"...

- You can change Nothingness into Universe?! Hell no! Nothingness is the absence of matter AND the absence of container. Universe is just about the polar opposite of that - presence of matter in a container. You can't create a bottle and fill it up with matter in a single step, you have to create the bottle and THEN create matter. The only way to generate matter is retro-anihilation.

- Planets and water pre-date stars and moons. That sounds wrong on a lot of levels... First, planets cannot pre-date moons - moons ARE made of exactly the same thing as planets! It's exactly the same stuff, the only difference is that a planet revolves around a sun and not another planet. In other words, moons cannot have been created after planets - except in a few, very particular cases (our Moon is one such exception).
Secondly, planets pre-date stars. That's even more problematic, since an astral body needs a star to revolve around in order to be called a planet. Even if we forget about that, planets and stars are essentially the same thing - except stars are much, much bigger and their temperature is much higher. If you look at the usual theory, Sun and Earth are about the same age (4.500.000.000 years old). You can't really separate their generations.
There are other problems, I'm pretty sure for instance that water is created after the planet, and not at the same time, but I think you get the point.

After that, Arceus and Mew created animals using parts of their DNA. Mesprit, Uxie, Azelf, Jirachi, Cresselia and Darkrai were created to enhance these animals lives with knowledge, feelings, dreams, etc.

[...]

The animals created by Arceus evolved slowly into Pokemon and humans, while some stayed the same.

Aw, so Pokemon and humans derive from animals. How cute! Except it doesn't work that well in practice, because for some reason there isn't a single animal remaining. If animals had ever existed in the Pokemon Universe, we would have solid evidence of that - primitive lifeforms living in pits, for instance. After all, that's the case in our own universe. "Some stayed the same" doesn't work because even Kabuto (a primitive lifeform) is said to be a Pokemon. If Kabuto isn't an animal, the question is "who the hell are animals, now?"

The other Legendaries (Latios, Latias, Shaymin, the Birds, the Beasts and Heatran) were made to guard the stuff as Arceus slept.

"Guard the stuff"... Sorry, I can't help but laugh. To make it short, while I use the Pokemon that could fit to fill the holes in my theory (and, in the end, only really "invent" Heatran's Divinty Factor because it fits it the most), you put the Pokemon that you cannot use (just because you don't need that many legendaries in your theory) in the "guardians of stuff" bin. Isn't that a little violent?
Plus, Heatran was created during Dialga and Palkia's awakened stages. Temporally you have a problem.

I could point out other problems, but I have to get going. Sorry about that.

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

- You can change Nothingness into Universe?! Hell no! Nothingness is the absence of matter AND the absence of container. Universe is just about the polar opposite of that - presence of matter in a container. You can't create a bottle and fill it up with matter in a single step, you have to create the bottle and THEN create matter. The only way to generate matter is retro-anihilation.
...What's retro-anihilation?
- Planets and water pre-date stars and moons. That sounds wrong on a lot of levels... First, planets cannot pre-date moons - moons ARE made of exactly the same thing as planets! It's exactly the same stuff, the only difference is that a planet revolves around a sun and not another planet. In other words, moons cannot have been created after planets - except in a few, very particular cases (our Moon is one such exception).
Sorry, I meant the Stars and stuff before the planets. :\

Aw, so Pokemon and humans derive from animals. How cute! Except it doesn't work that well in practice, because for some reason there isn't a single animal remaining. If animals had ever existed in the Pokemon Universe, we would have solid evidence of that - primitive lifeforms living in pits, for instance. After all, that's the case in our own universe. "Some stayed the same" doesn't work because even Kabuto (a primitive lifeform) is said to be a Pokemon. If Kabuto isn't an animal, the question is "who the hell are animals, now?"
Can you prove there aren't animals left? There are fish in Misty's aquarium in the anime. And the Pokémon are called "Small Bird" Pokemon for example. :\ If there weren't animals in the first place, why call it a "small bird Pokemon"?
"Guard the stuff"... Sorry, I can't help but laugh. To make it short, while I use the Pokemon that could fit to fill the holes in my theory (and, in the end, only really "invent" Heatran's Divinty Factor because it fits it the most), you put the Pokemon that you cannot use (just because you don't need that many legendaries in your theory) in the "guardians of stuff" bin. Isn't that a little violent?
Violent? But they sort of WERE created for that. What's Heatran doing then? What're Entei, Raikou and Suicune doing then? Celebi especially! It's guarding forests! Raikou makes sure the weather's in check! Suicune makes sure the water's in check! Entei - the volcanoes and heat. Which makes little sense as to what the birds do. :\

Answers in bold.

It's confusing. :\

 

[Post Office Buddy]

One little interjection to clear something up.

In other words, moons cannot have been created after planets

Actually, a moon is not a moon unless it is orbiting a planet. Do you call any of the larger asteroids in the Asteroid Belt a moon, even if it is the same size as an actual moon? Therefore, planets would predate moons. The same logic would apply to planets, though. A planet is not really considered a planet unless it is orbiting a star. Otherwise, it is just a large lump of rock. So in actuality, the universe predates stars, which predates planets, which predates moons and water. You can't say that water predates moons, since the chemical combination does not need to occur before a moon can be created. So yeah, a little bit of stuff here for both of you to take into account.

Aw, so Pokemon and humans derive from animals. How cute! Except it doesn't work that well in practice, because for some reason there isn't a single animal remaining. If animals had ever existed in the Pokemon Universe, we would have solid evidence of that - primitive lifeforms living in pits, for instance. After all, that's the case in our own universe. "Some stayed the same" doesn't work because even Kabuto (a primitive lifeform) is said to be a Pokemon. If Kabuto isn't an animal, the question is "who the hell are animals, now?"

Although there is no evidence of animals in canon aside from general references, you cannot simply argue that they do not exist in the world. For instance, do Elephants live naturally in America? Do polar bears live naturally in Africa? That same idea could be applied to Pokemon. For all we know, the regions in canon could be the only places where Pokemon exist and the rest of the world could be inhabited by animals we are familiar with. Just because you don't see any real-life animals in canon doesn't mean the potential for existence is not there.

Plus, Heatran was created during Dialga and Palkia's awakened stages. Temporally you have a problem.

That wouldn't necessarily make it a Greater Divinity though. You already voided the temporal idea with the creation of Entei, Raikou, and Suicune when you gave them a higher divinity factor than Ho-oh, which created them. Now you say that because they were created after Dialga and Palkia, and before other Pokemon, it has the highest divinity factor. I hate to be blunt, but does that not make you a hypocrite? Considering the beasts are reincarnates of other Pokemon that died in the Brass Tower, that means that they were created after several other species of Pokemon. How does this warrant them the Greater Divinity classification?

Anyway, that's all I have time for at the moment. I'll check this out later when I get out of work.

 

[Kalista]

...What's retro-anihilation?

You heard of anti-matter, right? When a matter particle collides with its polar opposite (which is an anti-matter particle, for instance eletrons and positrons are polar opposites), it explodes, releasing drastic quantities of energy. That process is called "anihilation" (because you end up with a global mass loss).
Retro-anihilation is the process that, out of sheer energy, generates matter and anti-matter in equal quantities (equal masses). It uses up drastic energy quantities (you need to respect the E=mc² equation, where E is the energy and m the total mass, c being 300.000.000² (celerity of light in an empty place)), which makes it pretty hard to observe in nature, but Man has been able to use particle accelerators in order to provoke retro-anihilation. Positrons are generated by retro-anihilation (for instance).

Can you prove there aren't animals left? There are fish in Misty's aquarium in the anime. And the Pokémon are called "Small Bird" Pokemon for example. If there weren't animals in the first place, why call it a "small bird Pokemon"?

These are the older episodes - if you search for it, there are hints that Lt. Surge is AMERICAN!
I think any data extraction from the older canons (the same actually goes for the video game...) should be conducted extremely carefully. There are things in the older canon that were put there only because "it was cool", but were later erased, when Pokemon proved to be an explosive fandom (and such symbols would become problematic). A lot of japanese fandom contain such false data for its coolness factor (ever heard of Evangelion?).
"Small bird Pokemon" makes reference to another huge problem of Pokemon: it was originally destined to children. Go explain to a kid what a Skitty is without using any cat-related word, and you'll understand ;).

Violent? But they sort of WERE created for that. What's Heatran doing then? What're Entei, Raikou and Suicune doing then? Celebi especially! It's guarding forests! Raikou makes sure the weather's in check! Suicune makes sure the water's in check! Entei - the volcanoes and heat. Which makes little sense as to what the birds do.

Okay, let's say, for instance, that Celebi guards forests. What happens when a forest gets attacked by mankind? Nothing. Celebi cowardly flees because it can't counter a thousand guys at once. Hell, there are even trainers who want to CATCH THE GUARDIAN!
You can say "Suicune makes sure the water's in check!", but that's clearly not the case (or, if it is, then Suicune is either lazy or incompetant) - the anime depicts a lot of polluted areas. If Suicune was supposed to make sure water was in check, such things wouldn't exist (or at least shouldn't).
The same goes for the manga - the initial reason why Olga joined Elite Four was to cleanse the world from pollution.

Actually, a moon is not a moon unless it is orbiting a planet. Do you call any of the larger asteroids in the Asteroid Belt a moon, even if it is the same size as an actual moon? Therefore, planets would predate moons. The same logic would apply to planets, though. A planet is not really considered a planet unless it is orbiting a star. Otherwise, it is just a large lump of rock. So in actuality, the universe predates stars, which predates planets, which predates moons and water. You can't say that water predates moons, since the chemical combination does not need to occur before a moon can be created. So yeah, a little bit of stuff here for both of you to take into account.

Okay, I agree. I must say I was in an hurry, and didn't really double-check this part of my post. I apologize about that.

Although there is no evidence of animals in canon aside from general references, you cannot simply argue that they do not exist in the world. For instance, do Elephants live naturally in America? Do polar bears live naturally in Africa? That same idea could be applied to Pokemon. For all we know, the regions in canon could be the only places where Pokemon exist and the rest of the world could be inhabited by animals we are familiar with. Just because you don't see any real-life animals in canon doesn't mean the potential for existence is not there.

Nice argument, but I think that's a little extreme. Why wouldn't birds (animal birds) come to Sinnoh, Kanto, Hoenn or Johto, if they existed in the Pokemon world? That sounds pretty exceptional to me.
Another problem is that nobody ever talks about animals (and I won't believe that nobody ever left the known part of the Pokemon world). If a sailor had seen an animal mouse, he would have talked about it to his folks, and somehow we would know it.
To sum up, I think animals existing in the Pokemon world without being mentioned in any canon would seem huge. Then again, a funny option would be to actually write a fic based on the fact that the "Pokemon world" would actually be an isolated part of a bigger world, populated with animals. There would be quite a lot of work to do here in order to make it coherent, but that might be very funny.

That wouldn't necessarily make it a Greater Divinity though. You already voided the temporal idea with the creation of Entei, Raikou, and Suicune when you gave them a higher divinity factor than Ho-oh, which created them. Now you say that because they were created after Dialga and Palkia, and before other Pokemon, it has the highest divinity factor. I hate to be blunt, but does that not make you a hypocrite? Considering the beasts are reincarnates of other Pokemon that died in the Brass Tower, that means that they were created after several other species of Pokemon. How does this warrant them the Greater Divinity classification?

Heatran having been created during Dialga and Palkia's actions doesn't necessarily make it a Greater Divinity (we agree on that), and that's not the point. I was talking about the chronology Ninja Caterpie was suggesting, because in this chronology, Heatran would have been created after Dialga and Palkia's stuff was finished.
About Entei, Suicune and Raikou, there's no continuity problem as far as I know... Assuming Ho-oh didn't create them, but resurrected them, that is (but I'm pretty SURE it is the case canonically - the Brass Tower Incident is stated to have made three victims, after all).
Entei, Suicune and Raikou were created in order to protect the equilibrium (same as the three legendary "Birds"). They therefore existed before Ho-oh (in my chronology...). However, when Ho-oh burned an Entei, a Suicune and a Raikou (yes, this time it's the Pokemon, not the Greater Divinities, that got killed) in the Brass Tower Incident, it stripped them from most of their powers - and their Greater Divinity. When it resurrected them, they still were in their former bodies, but they weren't "really" Entei, Suicune and Raikou anymore. The power they still had still qualifies them for Lower Divinity in my opinion, though. That's why Entei, Suicune and Raikou appear two times in my complete classification.

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

"Small bird Pokemon" makes reference to another huge problem of Pokemon: it was originally destined to children. Go explain to a kid what a Skitty is without using any cat-related word, and you'll understand ;).

Oh, let's all break the fourth wall. Go explain any legendary theory to a little kid then. >:[

 

[bobandbill]

One knows anything regarding canon and how one views certain aspects of the Pokemon world due to it is likely to spark disagreements. -_-

Well, IMO, it really does depend on how you view it. Some people pay attention to only one kind of canon out of the big four, others take a mix, some entirely disregard it for their fics. Which will then result in different viewpoints on the Legionaries and whatnot. So IMO for each person, it's going to differ one way or another, hugely or minutely, compared to another person's view.

As for... the parts regarding to on animals being in the Pokemon world or not - well, I'd like to throw in my two cents:

These are the older episodes - if you search for it, there are hints that Lt. Surge is AMERICAN!
I think any data extraction from the older canons (the same actually goes for the video game...) should be conducted extremely carefully. There are things in the older canon that were put there only because "it was cool", but were later erased, when Pokemon proved to be an explosive fandom (and such symbols would become problematic). A lot of japanese fandom contain such false data for its coolness factor (ever heard of Evangelion?).

Well, I don't think one should entirely discount the older episodes. They do not contradict with anything newer (like, say, the existence of Brock's mum - first she was dead, then in newer episodes she was fine and all, or so I've heard anyway), so they shouldn't be discounted as such. And I don't really see why showing characters looking at an tank of 'ordinary' fish is cool by any means anyway. :/

Oh, and the older hints about Surge being American is anything but old - I believe there may be some hints about that in FR/LG as well? It's not the only reference to the such as well; I recall Xatu's dex entry from GSC (NOT the anime) to mention South America. Ayers Rock (a place of significance in Australia) is mentioned in Ponyta's FR/LG dex entry ('Its body is light, and its legs are incredibly powerful. It can clear Ayers Rock in one leap.') Apparently upon beating a trainer in Sinnoh, he says, "Why the emperor of fishing? It's an ancient Chinese legend..." Never mind Fantina speaking French as well...

So in multiple canons and both old and recent productions, other-world references HAS been made. And one can conclude that as animals live in the real world, they can in the Pokemon world as well... it all really depends, again, how one views it and all. Can be taken either way.

Oh, and another major one - in R/B/Y/FR/LG (old and recent), an NPC in Pewter City mentions the infamous moon landing in the 'real world'. Even the date, if I remember right. Allowing one to easily, possibly conclude that the Pokemon world is really an altered real world... allowing the whole 'normal animals' thing to be possible in the real world. If they still haven't moved away from this even now, than I don't believe you can discount it, but rather accept it. :/ (Link I found full of such things: https://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/showthread.php?t=31461)

Also, something that just occurred to me - at the start of EVERY game - your professor-named-after-a-tree will tell you that 'In this world, there are creatures called Pokemon'. This establishment neither confirms or denies that normal animals exist in the Pokemon world as well.

As for more 'definite' references to animals - Spearow's dex entry in 3rd gen games: 'Eats bugs in grassy areas. It has to flap its short wings at high speed to stay airborne.' Now, not 'bug-type Pokemon', but bugs. Again, open to interpretation, but sounds to me that they more mean the 'normal' bugs, rather than bug types (there wouldn't be many Pokemon that'd fit in Spearows mouth anyway, remember). Pidgey have been seen in the anime eating worms. I recall a dex-entry in the games mentioning that some Pokemon's attack can easily knock out an elephant, or something. Gastly's I believe? Upon a bit of searching, even the manga (well, ani-manga? official nonetheless) shows outright a normal animal - a dog! In the same pic as Ash and Co, even.

So it's not just one old one-off reference - it's been used multiple times, and in recenter times as well. So it's really quite easy to go along with that. (And it does raise the question 'what do people eat?'. Can be argued that they eat Pokemon, or are ALL vegetarians... or they eat the normal animals. Again - either way can be argued with evidence, but that's another debate altogether.

"Small bird Pokemon" makes reference to another huge problem of Pokemon: it was originally destined to children. Go explain to a kid what a Skitty is without using any cat-related word, and you'll understand ;).

But... how COULD they make a reference/comparison to normal animals if they don't exist then in their world? Answer - they couldn't. And they wouldn't do so to break the fourth wall then in so many instances. Plus - I'm pretty sure kids can tell that a Skitty looks like a cat, no?

Another problem is that nobody ever talks about animals (and I won't believe that nobody ever left the known part of the Pokemon world). If a sailor had seen an animal mouse, he would have talked about it to his folks, and somehow we would know it.

Ah, but if animals - which are kinda ordinary compared to Pokemon which can communicate to an extent, have powers, etc - are existent in the world - well, why WOULD someone talk about it? There's no reason to, really... why talk about some mouse if it IS commonplace in your world, when you can talk about your awesome Zangoose instead? So that IMO rules out that argument.

To sum up, I think animals existing in the Pokemon world without being mentioned in any canon would seem huge. Then again, a funny option would be to actually write a fic based on the fact that the "Pokemon world" would actually be an isolated part of a bigger world, populated with animals. There would be quite a lot of work to do here in order to make it coherent, but that might be very funny.

As I said above - normal animals existing in the Pokemon world HAS been mentioned/shown multiple times in multiple canons, recently and long ago as well.

And there is such a fic like that as well, actually, only presented in a serious manner (realistically), and well written too - icomeanon6's fic. There you go - that's an example of a writer taking that approach for his fanfic. Which goes to show again that really all of this depends on one's perception and intrepretation of the Pokemon fandom, with or without some/all/any of the canons.

And thus - this will affect how one views other aspects of the Pokemon world, including legendary Pokemon.

 

[chris646]

Universe can't be created without anything. I believe arceus came from a universe that was destroyed via a black hole, and when Arceus arrived in a wormhole into a dimension that was entirely empty,and since arceus was the first thing there, it possesed godlike powers and therefore, because Arceus came from a different dimension that was destroyed, Arceus decided to model the new universe after the old universe was destroyed

That is my theory.

 

[JollyRoger25]

This is riviting, astounding really. But I thought that the Beasts were created as a result of the Tin Tower being destroyed. Riakou, as a representaion of the Lightining that struck the tower, Entei, a representation of the fire that destroyed the tower, and Scuicune a representaion of the rain that put out the fire, and even if thats not right, Scuicune is the embodyment of the north wind, not rainfall. I suck as spelling, in case you can't notice.

 

[Wolfwhispers]

It seems to me that you're mainly focusing on what the pokedex says, and only adding small tidbits from a mixture of the show and even from the manga. The problem with this, it seems, is that it is mixing with your head. You already have a firm belief in this system of yours, and look to the pokedex, the pokemon techincal bible, and jot down a few notes that seem correct to you. That's not to say you're wrong, of course, as we all have our own ideas.

But you also have to consider this: What if the creators forget something that has already been stated in the past? This has happened many times in an anime, and it is very confusing. With Mewtwo, the first one mentioned, it is stated and proved in the movies that Mewtwo is a clone, but in the games it is indicating that a pregnant Mew had had some scientific alterations to it. As Mew is technically a legendary, shouldn't its baby be one as well?

But then we have the issue of, "Wait! Legendaries can't have babies!"

You see, everything mixes together, creating different stories that differienciate each other. In my honest opinon, there were many unneeded 'legendaries' in Diamond/Pearl. Diagla and Palkia? I fail to see their purpose, other than the fact that they have stolen Celebie's main purpose: Time. And speaking of Celebi...

- Until further notice, I have never heard of an equilibrium depending on Celebi, nor seen two Celebi coexisting. Celebi obviously have a Divinity Factor (it can alter the Universe as a whole), though, so it cannot be a False Divinity. The distinction between Greater and Lower Divinities is probably not well explained at the moment, so I'll try to make myself as comprehensible as possible... If the Pokemon is present on Earth only, then it is a Lower Divinity. If the Pokemon would automatically appear on any planet with life on it (in its Pokemon or in an altered form), then, it's a Greater Divinity. The main difference is that a Lower Divinity's appearance is a local thing...

In the movie, at the very end, all those Celebi come and rescue the supposed dead one, bringing it back to life. Where did all those Celebi come from? Different times (obviously) or also different planets? You seem to have the idea that in the pokemon world, we're being faced with mutliples of galaxies and demensions. We're not. It's just the pokemon world, end of discussion. Not once has there ever been anything brought up about another planet.

THe closest thing we came to was Deoxys, but it came from a meatorite. However, because of this, there is only one, and it is a powerful entity. In some classifications of a legendary pokemon, it is stated that there is only one, it is powerful, and it is genderless.

Deoxys has all of these traits, so why can't it also be a legendary? And speaking of genderless pokemon, we have Heatran. It has been apparently set on a high level in your list. Heatran can be captured as either a boy or a girl, and it is found in a volcano. There is absolutely no information about this pokemon that talks about its creation, true origion, or if there's more.

In all honesty, it seemed more like an added side in adventure when you got to the three town island.

Now that I've got that out, let's move onto Lugia and Ho-Ho. In the second movie, it was stated that Lugia was the elemental birds' guardian. With its song, Lugia could bring peace to their mind, obviously being the leader and alpha over them.

With Ho-Oh, it created the legendary dogs. In the games it was stated that when three pokemon died, Ho-Oh gave them new life. What's to say these pokemon weren't your average Growlithe or Snubbull and Ho-Oh decided to give them a new body in order to give them their new life?

The pkedex and things such as Bulbapedia and Serebii is continually changing simply because the games and show keep on changing. With each new legendary, the old ones are left behind, and rightfully so because these new guys are the mascots, the ones that tell you the story of what's going to happen.

Because of this, I don't think that there can ever be a true understanding of the legendaries, because back in the day, Mew was the strongest pokemon (which I totally believe!), but then suddenly Giratina, a giant ghost centipede, comes out of nowhere. And Shaymin and Phione... ect... aren't there like a million of those guys? How does make them a legendary?

Sigh* I'm afraid I'm going to need to stop now. I know I've missed plenty and am frustrated that I didn't get down everything that might help, but I hope this is enough. Just like up above is your opinion, this is mine.