Magic: Individual Card Discussion

[Shiny Umbreon]

The mana cost of the tempests are never more than three. You probably know this already, but the point of slivers is to swarm and gain a large control of the field. This is harder to do with the large mana costing slivers.

OK. Time Spiral also has its very-low-cost Slivers, especially pointing to Gemhide. The thing is that apart from the normal fast Slivers, there are also some with brutal effects once you have your army ready which obviously cost a lot more, but really give you the game.

Also, a note against Pulmonic sliver: not only is it three mana more, but its also dual white, which reduces the chances of you getting it by quite a bit, especially since its slivers we're talking about. Compared to Winged Sliver which, in a pure sliver deck, is an "all creatures gain flying", turn 2 is godly. For Pulmonic, turn 5 they probably already have at least one flyer, and even then, you're probably not gonna get it out turn 5.

5 turns is a lot, but remember the "If a Sliver would go to a graveyard, put it on top of your deck" part? You would say Winged Sliver is a good option to start, even though Pulmonic is still the best option where the game is a bit more advanced. About the two-white-mana cost, there are now many options to get any mana now. From the Ravnica dual lands, to the Gemhide Sliver again.

Most of the time, Psionic sliver translates to "T: Sac: Deal 2 damage to a creature/player." First, Slivers are meant to attack. If you had those 4 slivers out on field, i'm willing to bet that you'd be attacking rather than staying put waiting to kill off creatures. You can't use that sliver unless you have Synchronous, which, again, costs a lot. Acidic lets the player sacrifice a creature, rather than tapping, to deal damage. This means that you could deal damage as a reaction to damage rather than not deal damage at all because the sliver is tapped.

It wouldn't need to be a sacrifice with Might Sliver, or if you want two Sinew/Muscle Slivers. Then, Slivers are meant to attack, but having so many Slivers with exactly the same abilities means you can choose whatever Slivers to attack and have some untapped. If you attack with all, your foe can use some Rain of Blades or Wing Shards. There's nothing wrong in leaving Slivers to block or to damge by the Psionic ability, so you won't need Synchronous.

Fury, well obviously double strike wasn't introduced til onslaught, so there aren't exactly any double-strikers, but for the same price, one could get 3 slivers with Flying, First Strike, and Shroud(Untargetable)<Honestly, are you really gonna be targeting your own slivers with anything?>.

Again, another one, maybe not so fast to play, but lethal if played later in the game. Shroud? I had heard Untargetability and Invulnerability, but not Shroud. Where does that come from? Anyway, why you do NOT need that? Some reasons: Magma Sliver (which is already enough), Crypt Sliver and Poultice (useless compared to Crypt).

Fungus: Okay, this one i can say is good in my mind, obviously the one drawback is that it has to be damaged.

Again, nothing dangerous with Might/Muscle/Sinew. It can also be combined with Psionic Sliver.

 

[Kenny_C.002]

Digi: No...the point of slivers is to gain the aggressive and tempo advantage and then riding that small advantage over and protecting it with counter magic. Efficiency is the only thing that matters with slivers. Max damage output for min cost. The good is that Time Spiral brought "big mana slivers" and "Johnny slivers" onto the casual charts. Big mana slivers is what Shiny Umbreon likes to advocate. It's a good strategy, but slivers shouldn't play curve. It can't play curve. Big mana slivers take the midrange strategy and outfit it with slivers instead of the usual fatties. The good is that they are synergistic. The bad is that individually they are terminally weaker than their fattie counterparts of the same mana cost. In this case, the choice should probably be decided on the account of how much removal is on the metagame. More removal favours the regular, more threatening fatties, while less removal favours slivers with their synergy. Johnny Slivers don't really care about any of that, and they just play the awesome telekinetic or psionic slivers and basically short-circuit something to make it combo out something amazing. Psionic + Watcher + dormant + cheap slivers including gemhide and plated slivers = massive fun. :3

From Tempest, all uncommon:

Mindwhip Sliver 2B (2/2) - 2, Sacrifice: Target player discards a card at random. Play only as a sorcery.
Armor Sliver 2W (2/2) - 2: This gets +0/+1 until EOT.
Barbed Sliver 2R (2/2) - 2: This gets +1/+0 until EOT.

No, I speak of the legendary 5 (winged, muscle, heart, crystalline, hybernation), plus maybe quilled sliver. The only slivers that people agreed to be good were the common slivers from tempest and the stronghold ones. Bottom line is that they're cheap and cost efficient.

Fungus Sliver 3G (2/2) - Whenever a Sliver is dealt damage, put a +1/+1 counter.

Unfortunately, Fungus sliver suffers from the "win more" syndrome. It cannot actually win a standstill, and all it does it deter chump blockers. The deterence from chumping isn't exactly anything to shout out about.

Fury Sliver 5R (3/3) - Double strike

6 mana. Nuff said.

Pulmonic Sliver 3WW (3/3) - Flying and "If this would be put in to a graveyard [from play], you may put on top of its owner's library."

Unfortunately, Pulmonic costs 3WW. It's about 3 times less efficient than winged sliver. The secondary ability they've added to Pulmonic sliver is good, but not good enough to warrant use when I want to rip a patriarch's bidding off my slivers. It can save the odd muscle sliver here and there, but it loses out by being 5 mana. And 5 mana for a sliver is "overcosted".

Psionic Sliver 4U (2/2) - T: This deals 2 damage to target creature or player and 3 damage to itself.

A Johnny card. I ran this a couple of times in more fun fashions without forcing myself to the "efficient sliver" that seem to preach about. It's a great card from that perspective. Outside of that perspective, it's not worth 5 mana.

You can't deny there's much difference between a good Tempest sliver and a GOOD time spiral sliver. Pulmonic Sliver is 10 times Winged Sliver even if it costs 3 more.

There's a huge difference between them. Tempest had the counter sliver deck which made the big leagues. Time Spiral has yet to create a tournament worthy deck out of slivers outside of block.

OK. Time Spiral also has its very-low-cost Slivers, especially pointing to Gemhide. The thing is that apart from the normal fast Slivers, there are also some with brutal effects once you have your army ready which obviously cost a lot more, but really give you the game.

Unfortunately, they are all overcosted, with good reason.

5 turns is a lot, but remember the "If a Sliver would go to a graveyard, put it on top of your deck" part? You would say Winged Sliver is a good option to start, even though Pulmonic is still the best option where the game is a bit more advanced. About the two-white-mana cost, there are now many options to get any mana now. From the Ravnica dual lands, to the Gemhide Sliver again.

I believe you mean late game, in which case...why is a sliver deck in late game? Unless you're playing Johnny sliver (take your pick from the blue ones), there isn't a need to get to that point. The game is usually decided with 5 slivers on the field and the guy holding 3-4 permission to stop anything from stopping his small army from winning. Gemhide sliver is possibly the best sliver card in the set, simply because it fixes mana.

It wouldn't need to be a sacrifice with Might Sliver, or if you want two Sinew/Muscle Slivers. Then, Slivers are meant to attack, but having so many Slivers with exactly the same abilities means you can choose whatever Slivers to attack and have some untapped. If you attack with all, your foe can use some Rain of Blades or Wing Shards. There's nothing wrong in leaving Slivers to block or to damge by the Psionic ability, so you won't need Synchronous.

Slivers have two modes: aggro mode, and Johnny mode. Aggro mode doesn't fear wing shards nor rain of blades. Rain of blades don't kill anything with more than 1 toughness anyway, while wing shards would kill your slivers even if you decide to hold some back anyway. Either way there's no reason not to attack if it gives you the optimal amount of damage, which often is the case with 2-mana slivers.

Psionic sliver was made to be a Johnny card, combined with Dormant sliver and watcher sliver (might costs 1 more, but it doesn't really matter with defender around, anyway) for maximum effect.

Again, another one, maybe not so fast to play, but lethal if played later in the game. Shroud? I had heard Untargetability and Invulnerability, but not Shroud. Where does that come from? Anyway, why you do NOT need that? Some reasons: Magma Sliver (which is already enough), Crypt Sliver and Poultice (useless compared to Crypt).

Shroud is the Future Sight keyword for untargetability. Fury costs too much, which is the only real strike against it. It's also such a big strike against it that people disregarded it from first glance. Magma sliver is a win more card. Crypt is one of the efficient slivers in the Legions generation (hi five quick sliver!), and poultice you already know is crap when compared to crypt. This is generally the problem wit the new generation of slivers. They lacked the same cost efficiency that the old slivers have.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

This has been abandoned for a long time. What if we discuss another card?

About the Slivers, I think Time Spiral ones can be very well combined into a Sliver deck (at least the cheap ones if you insist a little more mana won't do). Sorry, but I'm tired about Slivers now.

Shroud is the Future Sight keyword for untargetability.

Sorry. Haven't checked cards since Planar Chaos.

 

[Kenny_C.002]

Yeah the thread seems to die and come back and what not over the course of a time period. Anyway, what do you think of Future Sight?

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Well, I just checked some cards (especially rare) and some are ideas I would have NEVER come up with. Some examples:

Barren Glory 4WW - Enchantment - At your upkeep, if you control no other permanents and you have no cards in hand, you win the game.
Well, this seems to be a copy of that Unglued cheese card. Curious effect.

Force of Savagery 2G - Creature (8/0) Trample
Another curious card. Destructive if used well (and if it gains haste), but this wouldn't be something to save you when you need some support.

Muragand Petrogylphs 3G - Enchantment - Vanilla creatures get +2/+2.
Kind of interesting card. With things like Aquastrand Spider, Boreal Centaur or Gempalm Strider, Grizzly Bears was not used anymore.

Nix U - Instant - Counter target spell if no mana was spent to play it.
This must be one of the most "sideboard" cards I have ever seen. Would you put that in your deck?

Sliver Legion WUBRG - L. Creature - Sliver (7/) All Slivers [including this]get +1/+1 for each other Sliver in play.
This isn't just the most powerful Sliver effect, but also the most powerful Sliver, tied with the overlord and queen. Why do they make things like that? Just to have players pray to get this and win instantly? Just to sell millions of this cards each day? Really, a good strategy, is a good strategy, but this would really bother most people. I know WUBRG is not cheap or easy to get, but with the Coliseum, the Oddysey Citadel, the dual lands or the Gemhide, it's not so hard either.

River of Tears - Land - T: Add U to your mana pool. If you played a land this turn, add B instead.
I don't know what you think of this, but I'm totally against cards that are the same as another card, but with an extra effect (like the 2-mana 2/2 I mentioned before). This should be the easiest way to get a dual land. Adarkar Wastes was fair. Urborg Volcano was fair. Lantern-lit graveyard was fair. Ravnica dual lands were semi-fair because they were, again, upgraded versions of the Urborg Volcano cycle. Because the requirement is not so difficult and if you need to play the land you can still wait, River of Tears is an Island that, you may want to change to a Swamp. Really that is no anywhere. I know Wizards always try to do better cards, but please let them be fair. Ravnica duals at least required 2 life or a turn. This same reason is why I don't like Flagstones of Trokair either.

I see many powerful cards here, but they have complicated or specific effects. All these keywords (the old ones plus the million new ones introduced just in this set) made me believe at first this set was kind of agile and suitable for most decks, but looking again, I found nothing but Johnny cards. I have nothing against Johnny (I'm a little Johnny myself) but this is too much. It's like supply cards, each for one type of deck. In general, it's not a bad set, but I don't know how well it can do on its own. (Yeah, I still need to see the pre-constructed decks)

KIND OF OFFTOPIC: You know, this timeshifted design in Future Sight adds yet another card 'model'. Mirrodin divided them more than enough. Planar Chaos' timeshifted made them look slightly different, but now they look like another game. Imagine opening your first Magic deck and finding Future Sight cards, with Time Spiral timeshifted, Planar Chaos timeshifted, and Future Sight timeshifted cards. They can confuse you a bit.

 

[Kenny_C.002]

Well Future Sight is the ost underpowered of the three sets, but is the most interesting set from design's POV. :3

Barren Glory 4WW - Enchantment - At your upkeep, if you control no other permanents and you have no cards in hand, you win the game.
Well, this seems to be a copy of that Unglued cheese card. Curious effect.

It is very weak a card, but overall an interesting Johnny card. Yeah, it's The Cheese Stands Alone. :3

Force of Savagery 2G - Creature (8/0) Trample
Another curious card. Destructive if used well (and if it gains haste), but this wouldn't be something to save you when you need some support.

Well Pandamonium is the first thing to come into mind after glorious anthem and gaea's anthem. Basically anything that pumps toughness as a static ability will keep it alive (even blessed oracle). Haste from say fires of yavimaya would make this guy absolutely busted. XD Unfortunately, it's too weak without anything else. Still a fun card to try to build around (yay Johnny!).

Muragand Petrogylphs 3G - Enchantment - Vanilla creatures get +2/+2.
Kind of interesting card. With things like Aquastrand Spider, Boreal Centaur or Gempalm Strider, Grizzly Bears was not used anymore.

Yeah, this card is interesting, and the biggest winner here is Pride. 3/1 for 2 is ridiculous as is, but to give it +2/+2 and survive against sulfur elemental? Fun. :D

Nix U - Instant - Counter target spell if no mana was spent to play it.
This must be one of the most "sideboard" cards I have ever seen. Would you put that in your deck?

This is a vintage card, similar to pact of intervention. Useful for countering that stupid mox, or that black lotus. Here, it's probably a SB card at best, since the only real archtypes that use suspend are dragonstorm (!!!) and greater balance (both pieces are suspend spells).

Sliver Legion WUBRG - L. Creature - Sliver (7/) All Slivers [including this]get +1/+1 for each other Sliver in play.
This isn't just the most powerful Sliver effect, but also the most powerful Sliver, tied with the overlord and queen. Why do they make things like that? Just to have players pray to get this and win instantly? Just to sell millions of this cards each day? Really, a good strategy, is a good strategy, but this would really bother most people. I know WUBRG is not cheap or easy to get, but with the Coliseum, the Oddysey Citadel, the dual lands or the Gemhide, it's not so hard either.

Overlord is still better anyway. Sliver Legion makes it easy not to commit as much, which is its greatest boon. Overlord, however, is capable of letting you exert as much as you want, and then tutor itself back up if you guys die to a wrath. Oh the slivers come right back after the wrath. What's more interesting here is that Sliver Legion is essentially a sliver-specific coat of arms that dies to removal. I actually see this card for sale in many places, with nobody actually buying them, unfortunately. Overall, it's a very fun card that plays somewhat of a similar role to the Overlord. I look forward to smiting it in the casual tables. :)

River of Tears - Land - T: Add U to your mana pool. If you played a land this turn, add B instead.
I don't know what you think of this, but I'm totally against cards that are the same as another card, but with an extra effect (like the 2-mana 2/2 I mentioned before). This should be the easiest way to get a dual land. Adarkar Wastes was fair. Urborg Volcano was fair. Lantern-lit graveyard was fair. Ravnica dual lands were semi-fair because they were, again, upgraded versions of the Urborg Volcano cycle. Because the requirement is not so difficult and if you need to play the land you can still wait, River of Tears is an Island that, you may want to change to a Swamp. Really that is no anywhere. I know Wizards always try to do better cards, but please let them be fair. Ravnica duals at least required 2 life or a turn. This same reason is why I don't like Flagstones of Trokair either.

Actually, River of Tears has been bombing in sales lately. The problem is that the card isn't strictly better than an island, as it is preceived to be. It's simply that it's an "unreliable island" that sometimes does things turn 1. It's a matter of consistency here. It's actually getting a huge debate in mtg salvation to see if it's any good. The only data that was remotely good was some statisical analysis of how reliable River of Tears can fix mana. And it wasn't well...

I see many powerful cards here, but they have complicated or specific effects. All these keywords (the old ones plus the million new ones introduced just in this set) made me believe at first this set was kind of agile and suitable for most decks, but looking again, I found nothing but Johnny cards. I have nothing against Johnny (I'm a little Johnny myself) but this is too much. It's like supply cards, each for one type of deck. In general, it's not a bad set, but I don't know how well it can do on its own. (Yeah, I still need to see the pre-constructed decks)

KIND OF OFFTOPIC: You know, this timeshifted design in Future Sight adds yet another card 'model'. Mirrodin divided them more than enough. Planar Chaos' timeshifted made them look slightly different, but now they look like another game. Imagine opening your first Magic deck and finding Future Sight cards, with Time Spiral timeshifted, Planar Chaos timeshifted, and Future Sight timeshifted cards. They can confuse you a bit.

Future Sight is not playable as a set, if you're wondering. It's got lots of Johnny stuff, but no backbone to actually make anything really worthwhile. But it's a blast when you're a Johnny! ^^ Mark Rosewater wanted to keyword those guys so they can work it into design more readily. Fine, but them judges have a terrible time this time around.

Oh, and one of the powerhouse cards in the set is street wraith. It's a 3/5 for 5 with swampwalk (aka uselessly bad), but it has cycling for 2 life. Break out the combo numbers, cuz the wraith enables 56-card decks at last. That...is significant.

Good news is that Lorwyn will return to traditional 8th ed card faces (i.e. no time shifting). And rumour has it that the Lorwyn block has 4 sets (Peanut, Butter, Jelly, Sandwich). It's speculation at the moment, but this would be very exciting indeed. And the new card type...Tribal, most likely. I can't see planeswalker being one here, especially when it looks like the tribal theme will return (see 10th reprint of piledriver).

Speaking of 10th...wtf is BoPs doing there AGAIN? Looks like there'll be quite a bit of money in 10th. To the very least Arcanis, Raya, and Squee will do stuff.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Actually, River of Tears has been bombing in sales lately. The problem is that the card isn't strictly better than an island, as it is preceived to be. It's simply that it's an "unreliable island" that sometimes does things turn 1. It's a matter of consistency here. It's actually getting a huge debate in mtg salvation to see if it's any good. The only data that was remotely good was some statisical analysis of how reliable River of Tears can fix mana. And it wasn't well...

From my point of view, playing a land or not doing it until later is not a hard requirement, allowing you to control it pretty well. I know this may be true only for the beginning of the game, but that's when you care about it.

Future Sight is not playable as a set, if you're wondering. It's got lots of Johnny stuff, but no backbone to actually make anything really worthwhile. But it's a blast when you're a Johnny! ^^ Mark Rosewater wanted to keyword those guys so they can work it into design more readily. Fine, but them judges have a terrible time this time around.

I didn't mean just Future Sight, but all the TS block. I don't know, but I wouldn't make a set so Johnny, especially when TS and PC were two strange sets, too.

Good news is that Lorwyn will return to traditional 8th ed card faces (i.e. no time shifting). And rumour has it that the Lorwyn block has 4 sets (Peanut, Butter, Jelly, Sandwich). It's speculation at the moment, but this would be very exciting indeed. And the new card type...Tribal, most likely. I can't see planeswalker being one here, especially when it looks like the tribal theme will return (see 10th reprint of piledriver).

Four sets is much more unusual than Coldsnap, that came "alone". Wow! A new card type! I didn't know...I told you I hadn't checked wizards.com since Planar Chaos. *Imagining what could it be*. Well, there's creatures, lands, sorceries/instants (they are almost the same), artifacts/enchantments (again, almost the same)...It must be, like artifact, a "flavor" thing. Because, if you think, what else could there be? There's resources (lands), creatures, "staying effects" (ench/art) and one-time effects (inst/sorc).

10th edition...black borders, legendaries. It looks MTG is having a lot of twists, (and I thought that was going to end with the TS block) Only the new card type calls my attention, though. It's a bit late to do that, right? What about cards that interact with that? There'll be so few of them. Let's see how all this turns out.

 

[Kenny_C.002]

From my point of view, playing a land or not doing it until later is not a hard requirement, allowing you to control it pretty well. I know this may be true only for the beginning of the game, but that's when you care about it.

The fact that it can't fix your mana very well was the main concern. It's difficult to gauge, but I'll have to side with the side that wants to fix the mana, and it doesn't work too well as opposed to shocklands. That's all.

I didn't mean just Future Sight, but all the TS block. I don't know, but I wouldn't make a set so Johnny, especially when TS and PC were two strange sets, too.

Well PC was a spike set, so the spikes were already happy. Nostalgia plays into Timmys most (Time Spiral). All that was left were the Johnnies. XD

Four sets is much more unusual than Coldsnap, that came "alone". Wow! A new card type! I didn't know...I told you I hadn't checked wizards.com since Planar Chaos. *Imagining what could it be*. Well, there's creatures, lands, sorceries/instants (they are almost the same), artifacts/enchantments (again, almost the same)...It must be, like artifact, a "flavor" thing. Because, if you think, what else could there be? There's resources (lands), creatures, "staying effects" (ench/art) and one-time effects (inst/sorc).

10th edition...black borders, legendaries. It looks MTG is having a lot of twists, (and I thought that was going to end with the TS block) Only the new card type calls my attention, though. It's a bit late to do that, right? What about cards that interact with that? There'll be so few of them. Let's see how all this turns out.

That, we'll just have to wait to see. It's rumoured that Lorwyn will be a tribal block, like Onsalught.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Well, I liked tribal sets. And I can see many cards reprinted from there. I'm looking at the Mistform Ultimus right now...

 

[Kenny_C.002]

From the precons, it looks like tribal will be a theme for certain, but whether it's major or minor remains unseen.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Wow, back after three weeks!

Anyway, to speculate a bit, what about checking Future Sight's timeshifted cards?

I like this Delve ability, but this can be heavily be exploded by things such as Premature Burial, so I fear this will be greater than Convoke.

Gravestorm seems to fit perfectly with white field-cleaners (or even with Damnation) so this may be too dangerous, too.

Grandeur looks at last like a good reason to have four legendaries of the same name, but especially Linessa's effect is amazing. And the best part is that you can just Raise Dead at any time.

The Land Creature is an interest mechanic I had been waiting for. Of course nobody will notice it in a vanilla 1/1, but this could have some interesting combos.

"Shared" enchantments, like Imperial Mask, seems like another interesting mechanic for me, considering "target opponent" and "each opponent" were the only things that cared about other players (if you don't count that Wrath of God and those things affected a lot more).

What do you think of these? What other mechanics from the timeshifted cards do you like?

 

[Horo]

I run a Reanimator Deck, so I personally like Exhume/Reanimate.

I used to play those back when they were extended, but I've been retired from Magic for a Decent amount of time...

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Steamflogger Boss 3R
Creature - Goblin Rigger
3/3
Other Rigger creatures you control get +1/+0 and have haste.
If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it assembles two Contraptions instead.
(Rare)

The only thing I can say about this is "Uh?"
I'm lookin forward to seeing waht this card means.

 

[digi-kun]

To any of the magic players out there, was wondering if any of you have seen the new planeswalker card type

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

[Almost a month late]

Yeah, too powerful in my opinion. But I can't judge until I play with them. Very cheap, powerful and the counters can be easily exploited.

 

[chaotic_soma]

I'm going to post in here in the hope it will b revived so what about the new lorwyn block some powerful cards in there i love tribal decks so people bring back this thread!!!

 

[Dragonsfreak]

dammit...days lost...so whats the last...ahh right my mill deck^^...it´s also control and it´s not t2 cause it uses ravnica cards...and the raven guild master from scourge...maybe i´ll post the deck when its ready

about the tribal thing...i play a lifegain/token-elf deck...it brings home every game^^

 

[chaotic_soma]

Oh i LOVE the raven guild master card.
EEEEEEEVVVVVVVIIIIIILLLLLLL i can stand life gain/token decks they rip up most of my decks because EG MY CONTROL DECK/DESTRUCTION/MADNESS would be murdered by it but my warrier deck would enjoy eating it alive :D

 

[Dragonsfreak]

i don´t think so...i smashed 2 burn decks at one time with it :P

 

[romanwhiz]

Who here has Magic Online?