Metagame Discussion Thread

[airconditioning]

Well, why would a new player be interested in older generations? That's like playing Team Fortress Classic when we already have Team Fortress 2: TFC may have its unique features, but TF2 offers enough gameplay (as well as a larger player base) to keep a new player playing- leaving the old 'hardcore' as the sole players of TFC.

 

[GGFan]

Well, why would a new player be interested in older generations? That's like playing Team Fortress Classic when we already have Team Fortress 2: TFC may have its unique features, but TF2 offers enough gameplay (as well as a larger player base) to keep a new player playing- leaving the old 'hardcore' as the sole players of TFC.

Because most people who play to be good don't want to be versed in just one gen. It's just the casual players who only battle when the current gen comes out and then disappear after. You can't say you're one of the best when you only play D/P. And your comparison doesn't make sense because newer generations aren't better, they're just different.

 

[airconditioning]

TF2 isn't better than TFC, just different (better in my opinion, but there are many who would refute that). I don't see how the comparison fails.

 

[luke]

Guys, this isn't a Team Fortress thread or which metagame is better thread. It's discussing the changes within the Fourth Generation of Pokemon battling. Let's stay on topic please.

 

[GGFan]

Airconditioning: If it's only different then it just agrees with what I'm saying.

Britney Spears: I don't see how we're going off-topic. My posts pertain to the current status of the American metagame and it's decline. Would I be more on-topic if I discussed what Smogon was doing, even though this site isn't Smogon?

 

[Archer]

GGFan, Please keep in mind that Shoddy Battle is not the "American Metagame". Everyone has access to it, so a large section of the players are from outside the US. English Metagame would be more appropriate, although there are players that I have seen on Shoddy that do not speak English. Regardless, I can't see how there are either less players in this generation (with the introduction of Wifi) or how Smogon is to blame for the "Decline" in the Metagame. These Superpowers exist to provide new players with somewhere to start and a central hub for more experienced players to keep an eye on things.

To sum up the 4th Generation as opposed to the 3rd, I would say: The 4th Generation has evolved (pardon the pun) into a faster-paced, more Offensive Metagame, where Sweepers now have more powerful moves with better coverage and most walls gained nothing outside of entry hazards, which sweepers have begun to use.

 

[Anti]

Nintendo has brought new moves to the table in every new game, in the form of Move Tutors, etc.

This time, they went overboard in most cases. Outrage would be a constructive upgrade to pokemon such as Kingdra and Flygon. Instead, they insist on giving it to Salamence.

Superpower is also rampant, however it's not nearly as bad. It does give several pokemon the ability to break sturdy walls, though. Dragonite couldn't previously run a decent mixed set, it can now OHKO Blissey.

On top of this, they had to spam Trick across the board. It removes the element of strategy for wall-breaking and made the few viable users obsolete. I can't see why they didn't hand out Recover or Slack Off. It would mean more pokemon have access to reliable recovery. I mean seriously, why does Infernape have Slack Off and not Snorlax?

Here's the worst of it: These changes can't be undone without seriously hurting the next generation of competitive play. What I mean, is that they can't remove access to these moves without denying the transferal of pokemon across from 4th Gen to 5th Gen. They've really dug themselves into a hole here...

I've got an idea for the next topic. :D

As far as Superpower is concerned, it only helped Scizor and Dragonite. Dragonite actually could run a fine mixed set previously with Focus Punch (Since Blissey would never switch in on something that commonly used a DD/Outrage set, after all). Once it used a special attack, Focus Punch was actually fairly successful. Superpower is obviously better since it eases predict, but it didn't magically turn Dragonite into a mixed sweeper overnight.

Superpower is great for CB Scizor, but it doesn't really help the SDer. However I do agree that it really helps the CBer a lot. then there's Superpower Mamoswine which you didn't mention, though I don't blame you since it's hardly worth mentioning. Shaving 50% from Bronzong is kind of neat, but that would only be useful in a world with Deoxys-S (using "useful" loosely). Mamoswine is much better off beating Gliscor and Hippowdon more reliably (as well as Celebi) rather than worrying about 3HKOing something. I don't see Superpower as going overboard by any means though, as Dragonite is very slow and easy to beat before it can beat you (unless, of course, you're running stall), and Scizor would just Run Brick Break instead (though Superpower is admittedly superior on the CBer).

As for Salamence, Outrage is no worse than what we had with Garchomp. Salamence can only boost its attack with Dragon Dance, so it's not "uncounterable" or anything. The Life Orber dies much the same way LO SDchomp did, and the CBer has to worry about Stealth Rock and Sandstorm damage. I mean, it's not like they're overboard, just maybe piling onto a generation that has already hampered stall compared to GSC and Advance.

To sum up the 4th Generation as opposed to the 3rd, I would say: The 4th Generation has evolved (pardon the pun) into a faster-paced, more Offensive Metagame, where Sweepers now have more powerful moves with better coverage and most walls gained nothing outside of entry hazards, which sweepers have begun to use.

I completely agree (and I think almost everybody else would too).

I will say that how "good" or "bad" Platinum made the metagame is just personal preference; if you like stall or even some forms of bulky offense, then you're probably going to hate it (that's me), but if you love heavy offense, you're probably going to like it way more.

 

[GGFan]

GGFan, Please keep in mind that Shoddy Battle is not the "American Metagame". Everyone has access to it, so a large section of the players are from outside the US. English Metagame would be more appropriate, although there are players that I have seen on Shoddy that do not speak English. Regardless, I can't see how there are either less players in this generation (with the introduction of Wifi) or how Smogon is to blame for the "Decline" in the Metagame. These Superpowers exist to provide new players with somewhere to start and a central hub for more experienced players to keep an eye on things.

I never said Shoddy was the American metagame itself, but referring to what simulator Americans use the most. Shoddy is the main and only simulator that Americans use for competitive play. Netbattle is a joke in the American circuit, and yes I know Europeans use Shoddy. I've had many tournament battles in Pokemonexperte's server. Maybe Brazilians have a server too, but I never bothered to check.

I also didn't say this generation produced less players, maybe you just misread what I said. What I'm saying is that the quality of play has decreased thanks to Smogon's monopolization of battling and because of Shoddy. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're wrong or bad, but the level of competitive play has taken a huge hit because of these elements. However, I'm not sure if Smogon is still as political as they've usually been so maybe there are some faulty measures there.

And to say multiple superpowers exist is just a joke. Smogon is the only place left for Americans. You have to go back years to find superpowers.

 

[Anti]

Perhaps I did not specify in the first post what exactly I meant by "metagame discussion."

This thread isn't for discussing who is to blame for the current state of any metagame that is outside of the Pokemon themselves. This thread is for the discussion of purely the Pokemon and how they affect each other and play against each other and all of that stuff, not about Pokemon websites or battle simulators. GGfan, your opinions are probably best suited for another thread, but this just isn't the one. There's a lot of blame to go around for the decline of previous generations and the problems with our current one, but this isn't the thread to discuss that.

Let the discussion resume. Thank You.

 

[.]

SD Scizor actually can use Superpower effectively, although the CBer uses it with much better results. The reason to use Superpower is simply this: Skarmory. Unlike Bronzong, it's not 2HKO'd by +4 LO Bullet Punch, and it 4x resists X-Scissor. Superpower 2HKOs Skarmory after a single Swords Dance (63% minimum the first time, 47% percent minimum the second time). Bullet Punch can only manage 42% maximum after 2 Sword Dances, and X-Scissor does a laughable 28% maximum. Skarm can Whirlwind Scizor out, but if it decides to Roost, X-Scissor 2HKOs it.

Anyway, the metagame revolves around Scizor now. Skymin isn't at dominant as I believed it to be. It's uber when you use reasoning, but it either dies or doesn't do enough damage, not to mention its 4x Ice weakness makes it no harder to kill than Salamence. Scizor has a ton of checks and counters, but with most of them being Stealth Rock weak, and a majority of them being unable to handle things like Tyranitar, it's easy to work around it.

 

[Syaoran]

SD Scizor actually can use Superpower effectively, although the CBer uses it with much better results. The reason to use Superpower is simply this: Skarmory. Unlike Bronzong, it's not 2HKO'd by +4 LO Bullet Punch, and it 4x resists X-Scissor. Superpower 2HKOs Skarmory after a single Swords Dance (63% minimum the first time, 47% percent minimum the second time). Bullet Punch can only manage 42% maximum after 2 Sword Dances, and X-Scissor does a laughable 28% maximum. Skarm can Whirlwind Scizor out, but if it decides to Roost, X-Scissor 2HKOs it.

I see absolutely no reason to use Superpower on Scizor. Its speed doesn't allow to hit the Superpower weak pokemon (like Heatran) in time, it's only practical when you catch them on the switch, but that isn't likely to happen most of the time. Skarmory doesn't have to Roost either - Brave Bird hits Scizor naturally as he won't enjoy it with the LO recoil damage. I would only consider Quick Attack and X-Scissor as the 2nd or 3rd move besides Bullet Punch and Swords Dance. Roost is optional (if I intend to use all 3 attacks). Scizor should be running enough speed to outrun base 85 non speed pokes like Cresselia and Suicune.

Salamence strikes me as the biggest threat currently, solely for Outrage. It practically forces you to have SR on your team so this dragon doesn't come in for free everytime. I guess Scizor helps balancing him out with a powerful BP and Ice Shard is also good for stopping it completely if you don't mind sacrificing a pokemon so you can bring Mamoswine / Weavile safely. At least they will score a 100% hit, not worrying about friggin Sand Veil.

 

[.]

I see absolutely no reason to use Superpower on Scizor. Its speed doesn't allow to hit the Superpower weak pokemon (like Heatran) in time,

Prediction. Plus it always OHKOs.

it's only practical when you catch them on the switch, but that isn't likely to happen most of the time. Skarmory doesn't have to Roost either - Brave Bird hits Scizor naturally as he won't enjoy it with the LO recoil damage.

So you're just letting Scizor kill you while you hope to kill it? Scizor can Roost up and let the recoil do enough to Skarm that it ends up nearly killing itself. Skarmory is going to lose either way.

I would only consider Quick Attack and X-Scissor as the 2nd or 3rd move besides Bullet Punch and Swords Dance. Roost is optional (if I intend to use all 3 attacks). Scizor should be running enough speed to outrun base 85 non speed pokes like Cresselia and Suicune.

It does.

Salamence strikes me as the biggest threat currently, solely for Outrage. It practically forces you to have SR on your team so this dragon doesn't come in for free everytime. I guess Scizor helps balancing him out with a powerful BP and Ice Shard is also good for stopping it completely if you don't mind sacrificing a pokemon so you can bring Mamoswine / Weavile safely. At least they will score a 100% hit, not worrying about friggin Sand Veil.

Yaaaaaaaaaaaccccccchhhhheeeeeee.

 

[Anti]

To be fair, with "prediction," you can beat about any "check" that comes in. Besides, Brick Break can hit hit them too (though not as hard, but at least you can use it after a SD and not have your sweep completely ruined). Yeah 2HKOing Skarmory is probably cool and all if you actually see it, but it's 30th in usage. I'd rather be using that moveslot to better deal with counters and checks that are far more common like Zapdos and Gyarados (not like Scizor can really hurt them, but still).

Besides, like Sya said, the defense drop added to 120 base power STAB Brave Bird and LO recoil...Scizor actually isn't going to last very long at all. Superpower could work on the SD set I suppose, but if you want to "predict" what is coming in on it and deal with it, CB Scizor is probably a better choice for you anyways. Brick Break doesn't halt its sweep once he uses it, so Brick Break is probably going to be much more useful than Superpower.

EDIT: If Salamence switches in on SR, Yache Berry won't save it from CB Mamo's Ice Shard:

591 Atk vs 196 Def & 332 HP (40 Base Power): 260 - 308 (78.31% - 92.77%)

Add in the damage it will probably take switching in and Ice Shard has a really good shot at beating YacheDDmence.

 

[.]

I never use Superpower on the SD set, but when someone says there's "no reason to use it" then they're obviously wrong. There IS a reason to use it, and I've addressed that reason.

 

[Anti]

I never use Superpower on the SD set, but when someone says there's "no reason to use it" then they're obviously wrong. There IS a reason to use it, and I've addressed that reason.

Well is there any good reason to use it? It can kind of beat Skarmory and hit Heatran on the switch, but switching Heatran into Scizor is very risky as it is, and most of the switch-ins on Scizor resist or take very little from Superpower anyways, which makes Scizor take the LO recoil and likely SR damage for nothing. If it were for a Smogon analysis, I would largely consider it "Other Options" material, and what is there is usually something to totally stay away from. I can see what you're saying though...it's just borderlining on useless (though I agree, it isn't totally useless for the reasons you mentioned).

 

[.]

Well is there any good reason to use it? It can kind of beat Skarmory and hit Heatran on the switch, but switching Heatran into Scizor is very risky as it is, and most of the switch-ins on Scizor resist or take very little from Superpower anyways, which makes Scizor take the LO recoil and likely SR damage for nothing. If it were for a Smogon analysis, I would largely consider it "Other Options" material, and what is there is usually something to totally stay away from. I can see what you're saying though...it's just borderlining on useless (though I agree, it isn't totally useless for the reasons you mentioned).

If it takes out two of the more common Scizor switch ins, then it is already a worthy option. That's just like Fire Fang/Blast on Mence/Garchomp. It takes out two of the most common counters to them (Skarmory and Bronzong). It doesn't do much outside of hitting those two specific targets, but since it does, it's a must on the set.

 

[Anti]

If it takes out two of the more common Scizor switch ins, then it is already a worthy option. That's just like Fire Fang/Blast on Mence/Garchomp. It takes out two of the most common counters to them (Skarmory and Bronzong). It doesn't do much outside of hitting those two specific targets, but since it does, it's a must on the set.

Well both have the moveslot to spare, and besides, Superpower isn't a must on Scizor. Brick Break does a pretty fine job at hurting Heatran (394 Atk vs 248 Def & 328 HP (75 Base Power): 224 - 264 (68.29% - 80.49%) on standard Scarftran) while being useful for other things. Superpower is really only notable for Skarmory given SR will kill Heatran sooner or later if you use Brick Break (probably "sooner").

So it really isn't like Fire Fang/Blast on the dragons since it's actually essential to their sets, while Superpower is hardly essential (unless you have a REALLy bad Skarmory problem). I mean I see where you're coming from trying to say Superpower can be useful, but Brick Break is better 98% of the time so it's hardly notable. It is notable, but again, in an "Other Options" type of way.

=p

 

[.]

Well both have the moveslot to spare, and besides, Superpower isn't a must on Scizor. Brick Break does a pretty fine job at hurting Heatran (394 Atk vs 248 Def & 328 HP (75 Base Power): 224 - 264 (68.29% - 80.49%) on standard Scarftran) while being useful for other things. Superpower is really only notable for Skarmory given SR will kill Heatran sooner or later if you use Brick Break (probably "sooner").

So it really isn't like Fire Fang/Blast on the dragons since it's actually essential to their sets, while Superpower is hardly essential (unless you have a REALLy bad Skarmory problem). I mean I see where you're coming from trying to say Superpower can be useful, but Brick Break is better 98% of the time so it's hardly notable. It is notable, but again, in an "Other Options" type of way.

=p

Basically it's a Flamethrower vs. Fire Blast argument on Salamence. One OHKOs Skarmory, the other doesn't. Except imagine if Skarmory had a 120 STAB Attack that is 4x super effective against Salamence and Skarmory outspeeds Salamence...

See my point?

 

[Anti]

Basically it's a Flamethrower vs. Fire Blast argument on Salamence. One OHKOs Skarmory, the other doesn't. Except imagine if Skarmory had a 120 STAB Attack that is 4x super effective against Salamence and Skarmory outspeeds Salamence...

See my point?

To be fair, ScarfTran is ridiculously easy to counter. I see your point, but this isn't a power vs. accuracy matter; it's one of power vs. ability to sweep with SD...and after all, this is what SD Scizor is supposed to be doing. It's not like Superpower automatically means it can't sweep, but lowering your ever-important attack stat as well as defense makes it a lot harder. One thing that probably deserves a mention is Brick Break's ability to break Reflect, which has only gotten more popular as the months have gone by.

If this set was something where Roost >>> Swords Dance, then I would agree with you a lot more. Swords Dance + Superpower is kind of like using Nasty Plot + Overheat.

 

[.]

I think it's time we address an overlooked threat in the new metagame; Flygon. Yeah, in D/P, all the Dragons (especially Garchomp) outclassed it, nearly entirely. But with Garchomp being Uber, the addition of Outrage, and the prevelance of stall, Flygon can fit quite well in the new metagame. Not only is it either resistant or immune to all forms of entry hazards, but it can't be paralysed, nor can it be hit by one of the game's most common attack, Earthquake. Ground and Dragon STAB hits everything bar Skarmory and Bronzong for neutral, and Fire Blast lets it destroy Skarmory, though it cannot touch Bronzong. U-Turn is very good on Flygon; letting it hurt switch ins and turnign 3HKO's into 2HKOs. It's also perfect for Flygon's build, as Flygon doesn't fear entry hazards one bit. For example, a 333 Def/444 HP Cresselia takes 42%-50% from a Choice Banded Outrage. It'll never 2HKO, unless SR/SS is taken into account. U-Turn does 33%-40% to the same Cresselia. In other words, that U-Turn turns the 3HKO into a 2HKO 100% of them time. If you're feeling lucky punk then you can just spam U-Turn and 3-4HKO Cresselia. Alternatively, a Max HP/Max Defense Suicune takes between 44%-51%. That'll never 2HKO without Leftovers or Stealth Rock, but U-Turn guarantees the 2HKO on the next switch in.

Flygon can also make a "subpar" Tyranitar switch in, taking, at maximum, 63% from Choice Banded Stone Edge. Still, a CB Crunch can 2HKO it, but only 2.56% of the time. You can use some more bulk, but then again, Flygon isn't a Tyranitar counter, just a last minute check (at best). Fire Punch 2HKOs Bronzong and Shed Shell Skarmory (very rare) if Stealth Rock is in play, meaning there is little need for Fire Blast (it won't do anything to Bronzong). Outrage 2HKOs Gyarados after Intimidate, and Salamence is obviously going to get murdered. As far as counters go, the whole U-Turn switch idea ruins them. Hippowdon is the best thing to handle Flygon, as it's immune to Sandstorm, and can live a U-Turn and 2 CB Outrages (it does 48% max, and 41% min). Hippowdon also can Ice Fang it, or just plain Roar the poor bug/dragon/thing out. Still, Draco Meteor for the Mixed/Specs set can 2HKO most Hippowdon. Cresselia can remain a slightly good counter, since it has Ice Beam to guarantee a solid KO on the dragon.

Anyway, I think Flygon needs more lovin ;(