Occupy Wall Street

[Mr. X]

Oh nice, you can bypass the filter. I don't modify my words. While this doesn't get me many friends, at the very least I have the balls to speak my mind and not have to resort to manipulation to do so.

As for your deaths, they occurred in the camps and were not directly attributed to the police.

From the 4 I know of, one was a suicide, the second was a drug overdose/Monoxide poisoning, the third was a person getting shot who may or may not have been affiliated with the movement, and the last was unknown but assumed to be because of a preexisting medical condition.

The deaths were not caused by the police. The deaths were a direct reason for the police forcibly shutting down those camps though.

 

[jpp8]

When those deaths actually occur, then, not that I want them to, the police are completely justified in their evacuation. But most of the time it hasn't occurred yet. Meanwhile, in Skid Row, LA:

Strange how camping and tents are suddenly a problem when protesting the system is involved. Point being, Police are inconsistent, system is slanted, blah blah yada yada.

 

[Mr. X]

Just saying but while camping in a park is ok, its not ok to do so for large groups of people to do so month after month. Mostly because it gets to the point where it interferes with the average, non OWS affiliated, person who wants to enjoy a day in the park.

The basic thing is this. The OWS protesters are denying to use the means that will get them the change that they desire. They are not attempting to get into the political arena. Essentially, what they are going now, is *****ing and moaning in hopes that the 1% will finally get tired of them and toss them a couple handfuls of breadcrumbs.

 

[jpp8]

Not saying that camping over an extended period of time is OK either, but the premise under which they were evicted usually involved uncleanliness and/or an unsafe environment. There are plenty of other locales within the city itself that could use a good scrubbing or ousting of criminals, so why single out the one that is arguably the most peaceful out of all of them while leaving the rest alone? It just keeps the poor in their horrid condition and does nothing but incite protestors more.

They could, but I don't know why they don't want to. I mean, I'm content with them mic checking, and further revealing and bringing to greater attention the corruption of our political and economical system has been already been on everyone's minds. I think they're starting at somewhat of a State level with all these General Assembly meetings? Not sure. The OCCUPY (lol SAD) amendment was also another step in the right direction. They could and should be doing more to change things from the inside, but being a politician isn't exactly something I'd like to do, to be honest. Wouldn't want something like Sarah Palin and her affiliation with Tea Party to happen to OWS.

 

[TRIFORCE89]

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/12/occupy-wall-street-deaths_n_1089845.html

https://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/q42011/third-occupy-wall-street-death571/

And even if it wasn't deaths. Beating a fellow human being for protesting is piss poor to say the least. If this forum didn't have a younger audience, I'd say what I feel pressured to say about all this. But for now, I'll leave it at that.

Wait, wait, wait...

The proof that people have died as a result of police brutality is that they died due gun fire and drug overdoses among themselves? (And other things that aren't police brutality)

How the hell? That is quite a huge leap in logic or lack thereof.

 

[Mr. X]

Wait, wait, wait...

The proof that people have died as a result of police brutality is that they died due gun fire and drug overdoses among themselves?

How the hell? That is quite a huge leap in logic or lack thereof.

I can see his 'logic' in it, Goes something like this.

DEh PEopLE dIeN.
cOps HaTE DEh OWS MOVmENt
COpS DO dah AutOPIsez
COpS kILL teH peOPLZ N LiE abOUt HoW DEy DIez
CoPs HaVE ReSON to SHUTz DOwn TeH OWS CaMpz

 

[Mr. X]

Do we support tyranny? No.
Are the actions that OWS are taking the proper answer for it? No.

Also, just loving the 'come at me everyone' flamebait post.

I'm tempted to tear you a new ******* for that comment. But I won't since I don't feel like giving LW a reason to close this topic.

 

[TRIFORCE89]

I can see the logic here as well.

I loVesz the PolICse, thEYZz keEpsZ uSZ SAZFE!!!

You all support tyranny, you support brutality. So it's only right that many of you have the tyrannic mindset of most police.

I don't support brutality. I like how the Toronto police cleared up our camp. They just kinda stood around all day and said please a lot until the campers got bored. The stragglers who refused after twelve hours got arrested. The end. No violence.

 

[Mr. X]

I'm glad to see you'd be willing to give up your own liberties for protection.

Did I say that? No.

Your REALLY testing my self control here.

Still, liberties and protection are a balance. To many liberties equal little protection. To much protection equals little liberty. Its a balancing act. Some people favor liberty over protection, some favor protection over liberty. It just depends on the person.

 

[jpp8]

I do not agree with the forceful methods of which most police departments handled the occupiers. Nor do I feel that most mayors were justified in giving their eviction notices. But, the occupiers were given the eviction notices, a timeframe to leave, and were offered assistance to pack up. They did not leave, so police interference happened.

 

[HackChu]

I do not agree with the forceful methods of which most police departments handled the occupiers. Nor do I feel that most mayors were justified in giving their eviction notices. But, the occupiers were given the eviction notices, a timeframe to leave, and were offered assistance to pack up. They did not leave, so police interference happened.

Giving evictions to people apart of a protest is going against the people's own constitutional right of freedom to protest.

 

[Mr. X]

As I said a while back, carrot and stick. The stick was just bigger.

Also, keep pressing. No really, continue. I just love it when people test my self control.

Edit - For protests, im pretty sure that the founders did not foresee the actions that OWS are doing in the name of their protest.

 

[jpp8]

OK now, that conversation was said in jest of the situation. There was not an ounce of seriousness in those words. (Let's not bring Personal Attacks into a debate.)

Also, there is no constitutional protection of protest. Peaceful assembly and expression, yes, but the powers that be determined that their assembly was no longer peaceful, and thus, the eviction. I myself don't fully agree, but that's what happened.

 

[Mr. X]

Not really. I'm just saying the first thing that applies and what came to mind. His own words, A timeframe and help packing. Thats the carrot. After that time, police intervention. The stick. (And yes, I did use those same words a few pages earlier relating to the same eviction. It was jest, but still a valid comparison.)

Calling a person who does not agree with you a Troll? Really? Look back on most of my posts in this topic. You'll see a pattern. Someone insults me, I go berserk. Someone posts a view I don't like, I use aggressive tactics to disprove that view. We both reach somewhat of a agreement, we have us a nice discussion on matters pertaining to the topic.

Do I use personal attacks in my debate style? Yes. Do I use them with the same agression that you just did Hack? No. And still, when I use them they are more directed at the view and not the person.

 

[SV]

Their demands have not changed. People keep asking what their demands are, as if it's not very obvious and as if it changes every week. Just because that one guy in your class couldn't elaborate on his statement doesn't mean nobody can. These people know what they are protesting, and only the most dedicated to seeing change happen are still doing so. No one is hopping on a bandwagon. Desiring your government to do what it SHOULD be doing is not a fad.

Again, I didn't say that everybody didn't know what they were doing, but quite a good portion, if not a majority, have been protesting something in which they are unfamiliar with, or otherwise misinformed. That person in my class was one of the ORGANIZERS of the protest in my city, and when someone of that standing fails to elaborate, if unfortunately gives a lot less credibility to the others. Again, this absolutely does not apply to everyone in the Occupy movement, but it certainly takes away from it's credibility.

You are right, though. The ones who are more dedicated to the movement are most likely more informed.

 

[Mr. X]

As for your edit. You're not American, so you wouldn't really know. That makes it sound as if "sure, lets suspend this constitutional right for the moment". Which is still illegal. And, regardless, if they knew or not. What is happening is a form of tyranny, and that is something they would not have condone. Seeing as how Britain has had it shares of tyranny, it doesn't surprise me at all that you don't understand.

Idiot. You really, REALLY, need to double check your facts before you go around accusing someone of something (Or, as I call it, spewing ****)

Despite what you think, not every town has its own name. Sometimes the names are shared. I live in Arkansas you ass wipe, you know, that state above Texas and to the right of Oklahoma?

Edit - And now, after tearing into me for saying the movement is not accomplishing anything, you go and say the same damn thing?

 

[KingCharizard]

Wow this has turned into a unnecessary flame war/argument. Yes the police were wrong for trying to suppress the press in the video on the previous page and it was a false arrest but they didn't physically hurt the guy they just restrained him for reason unknown to us, perhaps he was shouting racist slurs threatening the police whatever the reason he was arrested.

About you two going back and forth i don't really understand what you two were arguing about. You two have your own opinion its called being different. It didn't have to end like it did. However I will come on here and say i agreed with hackchu's original points. Mr X you made some good points too but you need to try to look deeper into what hackchu was trying to say. But because he tried to make it personal by bringing in someone you may have cared about he lost all credibility from you so even if you wanted to agree with him your feelings told you not to.

As to these occupy movements I say they are well within their free rights as Americans to be doing whatever it is their doing. Revolts like this is what got most Americans the rights they have today. Also if i remember from history class they also helped in founding the United States. So yes while I don't understand what their hoping to achieve with these protests I support them as long as their not harming anyone or destroying property. By the police forcing these people to disband and go home wont stop their cause it would only fuel it, so i say leave them alone as long as their non violent and let them keep doing what their doing eventually they will get bored tired and just go home.