Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[El Gofre]

I don't understand why Umbreon's being question... not even the fighting types of UU can successfully counter it.
Actually the ever-common fighters of UU rape umbreon. As an example, LO Hitmonlee (One of the few not running choice band) OHKO's it.
It's like Shuckle with better typing, movepool, and HP.
Umbreon plays nothing like shuckle. Umbreon makes good passes and traps. Shuckle flails about a bit, knocks off items and then proceeds to get raped by blissey.
The premiere fighters of UU, Hitmonlee and Primeape, are Toxified, annoyed and stalled until they die.
>Insert my first point here<
Bug types don't fare well at all against Umbreon with their usually low HP and Attack stats.
Heracross, scizor, scyther, pinsir and even forretress all beg to differ.
Miltank is just about the only thing in UU that causes it serious problems.
As I've pointed out, no it isnt. steels are also immune to toxic and resistant to dark, which are almost always its offensive options.
Lee and Ape can be considered counters, but they can't safely take down Umbreon without the risk of fainting or crippling.
All they are at risk from is toxiTrapping, which they are hardly bothered about since both outspeed and OHKO before he can get off to set-up attacks.

So yeah, umbreon isnt the rapage player of UU you seem to think he is. A decent recovery move would make it very godly indeed, but that's not happening any time soon.

 

[Archer]

Also, offensively-based fighters are hardly going to worry about Poison. Burn and Para can scare them, but in the turns it would take to wear, say Hitmonlee down, it could have taken out half of your team.

 

[Volkner's Apprentice]

I agree with most of Archer's list. Except Weezing..he's pretty common nowadays (I can't speak for shoddy, but he's definitely produced on a decent number of wifi teams over the last few months) I can see him moving to BL, possibly.

Soooooo ummm Poliwrath gets Ice Punch and Vacuum Wave. Yeeeeah...BL. Haha. Kidding.

 

[shedinjask]

Moonlight is actually an effective recovery move in UU, where Sandstorm and Rain Dance and Hail are almost never seen.

 

[Samson]

nah umbreon is fine is UU. if you are ever having trouble with umbreon, then you are doing something very wrong.

 

[shedinjask]

I didn't say it was BL material, just that it does indeed have a good recovery move.

I don't believe Weezing and Aerodactyl should be UU. I am a terrible UU battler and I just slap them and Claydol on a team and win every time.

 

[Samson]

so shoddy won't work on my new, top-notch laptop and it's really disappointed me, so i thought, meh, i'll just go on a rant on how D/P UU is going to be crap compared to D/P/P UU. i'm looking at pokes in ways i never have before. my kingler CB set just got x10 better.

/rant

 

[4th Gen Matt]

Deoxys-S should be moved to uber.

I think he has as much potential as the rest of his forms.

Opinions?

 

[Ooka]

No, I don't think Deoxys-E should be moved to Uber. Mainly because it does have an unbelievable counter in OU, therefore not too strong in the OU metagame. Spiritomb walls + kills it like there's no tomorrow. Unless of course it's the Cosmic Powering one, in which case even a Steelix can take care of it. (Unless it taunts, but it can be stalled out of moves, and that set doesn't tend to be very effective anyways, as it relies on the opponent not getting a critical hit, which happens 1/16th of the time)

So in my honest opinion, Deoxys-E is fine where he's at.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Deoxys@light Clay
Timid Nature
252 HP / 252 SPEED / 6 DEF
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Reflect
- Light Screen


This is the set that put Deoxys in question since it screws one heck of alot of stuff up.

However with Platinum and Trick Scarf being omnipresent and other changes to certain pokemon i dont think this will be an much of an issue to deal with.

 

[Ooka]

So a set that doesn't even hurt is one that's being considered Uber? Well, I believe I've heard it be said that the reason Pokemon like Blissey will never be Uber is the fact that they a)Have counters, and b)Lack a strong offense, so because of that, I still don't think it should be sent to uber.

 

[Aquilae]

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef

Counter
Mirror Coat
Encore
Safeguard

So a set that doesn't even hurt is the premise for a pokemon to be in Uber? DS DX-S shares many similar qualities with Wobbuffet setting up Screens to aid a sweep and preventing setups, not to mention the Dual Screen version can setup on many of DX-S normal counters with impunity. I still want DX-S banned on the merits of its LO sweeper set since it is near impossible to revenge-kill and its viable counters are few and far between, all of them are extremely slow (<70 Speed). With Platinum changes Scizor got a boost but I still don't think it is enough to justify DX-S being in OU.

Uber is decided on the basis of centralisation, not power.

 

[Ooka]

Actually, no, that moveset doesn't make it Uber, Wobbuffet's ability is what makes it Uber. The lack of that ability would easily move it down to BL (Because it's hardly used as is), if not UU.

I agree that centralization has plenty to do with it, but a higher offense is never looked over, and is calculated with movepool and counters, which are generally the judging factors, however, in this case it would be Wobbs amazing ability to prevent the opponent from switching in a counter, and the fact that it can reflect double the damage that an opponent would do, and they don't have to worry about a switch.

 

[Dark Azelf]

So a set that doesn't even hurt is one that's being considered Uber? Well, I believe I've heard it be said that the reason Pokemon like Blissey will never be Uber is the fact that they a)Have counters, and b)Lack a strong offense, so because of that, I still don't think it should be sent to uber.

Its not that though its because it has the ability to set up a sweep for team with very little effort.

But as i said, with platinum i dont think it will be an much of a threat.

 

[Noir Lancer]

Deoxys-e should be Uber, not because of the sweeper set but because of it's effectiveness in the filed of utility. Thunder Wave/ Taunt/ Recover/ Spikes/ Reflect/ Light Screen, it can do anything with relative ease. Double Screen Deoxys also turns the match in the users favor if you lack Brick Break, and Cosmic wall Deoxys is near impossible to beat with ordinary tactics, and requires something specific that would otherwise normally wouldnt be run to beat it


As for the rest of the list, I'm assuming these tiers are being based off overall usefulness > actual usage, or should be anyway....

Donphan is BL, it really cannot do much, its outclassed by many as a Rapid Spinner, the fact that it is weak to Toxic Spikes diminishes said task. As a wall Hippowdon beats it, as a sweeper, Rhyperior beats it. It can do all 3 to some extent, but it just cannot do it effectively, its niche at best and should be BL.

Electivire is also BL in my opinion, it just isnt that big of a threat without Motor Drive activated. Physical has quite a lot of counters and some teams do not even use electric attacks so it can even get the boost in the 1st palce as tehy have other methods of dealing with bulky waters (I.E. Celebi, which also beats all physical Vire)

Jolteon is BL, it can't do much outside of Baton Pass which is probably the only thing it can do very well.

PorygonZ also BL, it lacks either power or speed to actually be a threat. Scarf/ Agility lacks power, Specs/ Nasty Plot lacks speed, it also heavily relies on said items and moves which means, as is, it can't do much, and anything is decent with set-up, and thus should be excluded.

Swampert, also BL it's highly overrated thanks to it's typing, it's niche. Swampert can't recover making it less potent wall/tank, it lacks power and is slow making it a less potent sweeper. It also only really sets up Stealth Rock most of the time and that's it, sometimes Roar.

Tentacruel also niche,all it does the majority of battles is Rapid Spin and set up Toxic Spikes, it can't really counter much outside of Heatran, MixApe and SpecsMence and Sceptile and Celebi to some extent. it cannot recover, which makes it bad wall/tank and just can't hit hard as is. And the Poison typing makes it a rather bad switch in to ground types which other bulky waters have little to no problem doing.

Umbreon, clearly not OU material and is only here because of raw usage, no doubt.



UU is already ruined and been ruined for a long time, so i'm not going to bother with it.

 

[Ooka]

PorygonZ
Swampert
Tentacruel

I don't agree with those going anywhere, however I suppose the others are debatable. Reason being, (And you obviously don't fully understand a tier list or you wouldn't have posted it) a Pokemon gets moved from OU to BL out of sheer amount of usage. I see plenty of these every day on Shoddy, especially Swampert and Tentacruel.

 

[shedinjask]

But do Shoddy stats back your post up?

We need a cutoff point for OU. Anything above it is OU, anything below is UU. If it is too strong for UU it's BL. Someone needs to start on this now.

 

[Noir Lancer]

(And you obviously don't fully understand a tier list or you wouldn't have posted it) a Pokemon gets moved from OU to BL out of sheer amount of usage. I see plenty of these every day on Shoddy, especially Swampert and Tentacruel.

As for the rest of the list, I'm assuming these tiers are being based off overall usefulness > actual usage, or should be anyway....

Which is why I posted that disclaimer, tiers shouldn't be based off usage, it just ruins things, such as the UU metagame. By basing things of usage, if everyone were to use Rattata then it would become OU or BL because of it's usage. It should be based off potency and overall effectiveness, this way everything is kept in check, and there are no broken aspects in a metagame. But I digress with my opinion rant....

 

[Ooka]

Rattata would never become BL or OU because of it's usage. It has completely poor stats, and it's UE at that. Just because it has F.E.A.R. moves doesn't mean that it's strong enough for anything above NU, thus making your argument horrid. The Tier system is pretty good imo, and the BL Tier gives people a choice that won't contain things that they see everyday in OU battles.

I, personally, wouldn't mind another tier, mainly because BL Pokemon aren't really that good in general, which is why they get used less, meaning that if another Tier was there, (one not based off of usage) then I'm sure people would have more respect for it.

 

[Aquilae]

If Rattata was complete crap but was used extremely often it would be OU. OU, UU and NU are determined by usage > power which is subjective in most instances. BL and Ubers are determined by gauging the centralisation for the pokemon and seeing if it causes the metagame to be unhealthy.