Political Correctness: A Blessing or A Curse?

[Thepowaofhax]

Since I'm lazy, I'm just going to split this post into multiple sections. Or that is probably more work than lazy.

Yes, being politically correct is a good thing because it means not being a jerk, and not being a jerk is a good thing. I can agree with this, just when it is not at it's extreme.

I have zero empathy for people who complain about not being able to use offensive terms that hurt and annoy others. Just as any other human, even if we're all inherently stupid. Myself include. It's nearly 2016 - we know better than to use shitty, outdated words or to be exclusionary of other people's experiences and emotions. Do we know better, or are we using political correctness incorrectly? After all, we have to change our wording over petty ****, like "Islamic terrorists" because we have to pander to people pretending to be offended for minorities. We live in an age where we are more aware than ever of how diverse our society is - we can't feign ignorance anymore, and we have to update with the times. I don't want to live in a society that's intentionally ignorant and insular. Do you really think humans will ever be able to be fully 100% not intentionally insular and/or ignorant? Is it not okay to be not interested in others' culture and be called xenophobic because of that?

The second one.

I absolutely love stand-up comedy, and I rather enjoy video games. Both of those fields are known to be "old boys' clubs" that are predominantly ruled by straight white dudes who have felt free to do or say whatever they wanted, and haven't really been challenged for it.
******** for gaming. Because, you know, apparently gaming is mainly a bunch of males (even though females make a good 40ish percent since 2011 with it being 48% female in 2014.

The comedians and game devs complaining about having to be PC or inclusive need to git gud - it's 2015
So we should force censorship down a dev's through and a comedians throat because they need to git gud? The SJW often attacks games over the fact that a lot of them want something but are never satisfied. A good example is the debacle over Overwatch, where they wanted more builds on the female characters. They complained the new butch female character wasn't anything else.
, and if your comedy routine or video game relies on racism or sexism to be good, t
They don't need to rely on that, but if we have to removes jokes due to a group of people who take offense for others, it is a problem.
hen the problem is that you're bad at your job, not that the PC police is too mean. I have seen many comedians and video games that don't have to bend over backwards to be PC, and who don't complain about it.

3.

Everybody self-censors every single day. We all think things like "wow, that person has bad taste" or "I want to punch the person who cut in front of me" or "I hate screaming babies," but we don't say those things out loud, because saying those things would make us rude assholes, and we would be unable to function in society. This is the same thing. I beg to differ. We can have a society with this ****, but it doesn't mean everyone there isn't an asshole.

Also don't you pro-Gamegaters believe that GG is about "ethics in game journalism" as you state below? Of course, what it turned into was mostly just a pile of misogyny and rape threats, but I'm not sure what any of that has to do with political correctness.
Was it just a pile of misogyny and rape threats, or was it a rhetoric spun by radical feminists who wanted to defend Zoe Quinn because of their beliefs as well as them thinking it's not politically correct to criticize someone because they happen to be female?



All of this is entirely unrelated to the subject. Political correctness has nothing to do with ethics in gaming journalism, and criticizing women is not politically incorrect. Really, because our friends in the radical feminist camp seem to think that it IS indeed politically incorrect to do so. But, you know, you have to spin your rhetoric with a strawman and ignore the extremists.

4.

We censor ourselves all the time so as to function in society. You can't just say whatever you want all the time if you want to have friends or hold down a job. Technically, you could still have friends. Especially if you only said racist ****, because a racist would have racist friends more than likely. Now, for holding a job, if I'm criticizing a person who is pro-political correctness, should I be kicked out of my job or threatened to have my boss come at me? Should I even dare criticize someone extremely politically correct such as Zoey Turr and have my **** doxxed? There has always been a set bar of what can and cannot be said in public, but that bar has been really low for a very long time. Now that it's 2015 and we're starting to recognize how diverse our society is, we cannot accept keeping that bar set so low. It's time to expect more from ourselves.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not an anti-feminist, I just hate their vocal minority of idiots. You're lucky I even took you seriously after you just plainly said that two hobbies were literally an only-white man club.

 

[Somewhere_]

Yes, being politically correct is a good thing because it means not being a jerk, and not being a jerk is a good thing.

I have zero empathy for people who complain about not being able to use offensive terms that hurt and annoy others. It's nearly 2016 - we know better than to use shitty, outdated words or to be exclusionary of other people's experiences and emotions. We live in an age where we are more aware than ever of how diverse our society is - we can't feign ignorance anymore, and we have to update with the times. I don't want to live in a society that's intentionally ignorant and insular.

I absolutely love stand-up comedy, and I rather enjoy video games. Both of those fields are known to be "old boys' clubs" that are predominantly ruled by straight white dudes who have felt free to do or say whatever they wanted, and haven't really been challenged for it. The comedians and game devs complaining about having to be PC or inclusive need to git gud - it's 2015, and if your comedy routine or video game relies on racism or sexism to be good, then the problem is that you're bad at your job, not that the PC police is too mean. I have seen many comedians and video games that don't have to bend over backwards to be PC, and who don't complain about it.

~Psychic

"update with the times"? What does that mean? Are you saying we should conform to how others feel we should talk? There is a time and place to say stuff, and I understand one should not say a racist joke at the workplace (its a private company and if the company wants, they can get fired), but who cares if someone says something racist in public? Or sexist? Or anything? Just ignore it! Its their loss, really! If people try to conform to only using politically correct terms, it would be impossible. Someone is always offended at something.

Are you saying game devs should not be allowed to use racist or sexist jokes? They are not failures if these jokes make money! Its just a different style of humor.

 

[Psychic]

Can you please find another way to reply, Thepowaofhax? It's really hard to try and quote you this way.

Do we know better, or are we using political correctness incorrectly? After all, we have to change our wording over petty ****, like "Islamic terrorists" because we have to pander to people pretending to be offended for minorities.

You didn't ask if we were using political correctness incorrectly - you started off this topic asking if it was good or bad, which is a very different topic. To me, the answer is that yes, it's a good thing, but no, we're not always doing it right, and it gets taken to extremes.

Do you really think humans will ever be able to be fully 100% not intentionally insular and/or ignorant? Is it not okay to be not interested in others' culture and be called xenophobic because of that?

We're not talking about 100% - we are talking about extending the most basic of human decency in specifically saying or doing things we know are offensive. Most people know better or could easily be educated to know better, but they say and do ignorant things anyway and resist education, and that is ridiculous in 2015. Again, if you want to talk about being 100% not intentionally insular and/or ignorant, that is a completely different conversation than the one you started.

******** for gaming. Because, you know, apparently gaming is mainly a bunch of males (even though females make a good 40ish percent since 2011 with it being 48% female in 2014.

It seems I was unclear: historically, comedy and video gaming have been predominantly ruled by straight white dudes who have felt free to do or say whatever they wanted, and haven't really been challenged for it. Frankly, it is still difficult to be a woman in either of those industries, despite the improving female presence. This is a widely-known fact.

So we should force censorship down a dev's through and a comedians throat because they need to git gud? The SJW often attacks games over the fact that a lot of them want something but are never satisfied..

No, I said that if you're complaining about having to be PC then it's a reflection on a poor skill set. As a result, they should probably be replaced with more talented people to keep up with the times. If you want to release homophobic or sexist content nobody can stop you, but expect criticism for it. The free speech you claim to care about extends to critics.

Was it just a pile of misogyny and rape threats, or was it a rhetoric spun by radical feminists who wanted to defend Zoe Quinn because of their beliefs as well as them thinking it's not politically correct to criticize someone because they happen to be female?

Are you implying that no misogyny or rape threats emerged out of GamerGate? GameGate is responsible for more harassment than anything else, but again, I fail to see what this has to do with the subject. If you want to talk GG maybe make another thread for it.

Really, because our friends in the radical feminist camp seem to think that it IS indeed politically incorrect to do so. But, you know, you have to spin your rhetoric with a strawman and ignore the extremists.

Anyone who believes that "political correctness = never allowed to criticize women ever" is seriously out of touch. Additionally, if you only ever listen to the radicals of any group, then your perceptions of the rest of that group will be heavily skewed. Christians and non-Christians alike acknowledge that the Westboro Baptist Church does not represent the majority of Christians.

Technically, you could still have friends. Especially if you only said racist ****, because a racist would have racist friends more than likely. Now, for holding a job, if I'm criticizing a person who is pro-political correctness, should I be kicked out of my job or threatened to have my boss come at me? Should I even dare criticize someone extremely politically correct such as Zoey Turr and have my **** doxxed?

I'm not just talking about censoring racist comments, I'm talking about not saying every single thing we think, because that would be ridiculous. You can argue about how assholes will be friends with assholes, but the point still stands. Society has rules about things you can say in public, and by going against them you will probably have a bad time.

Doxxing is another subject that is rather different than what you brought up, and more complex because it is imperfect and a lot of innocent people have been hurt by it. Regardless, most employers keep a tight reign on what employees are allowed to say because they are representing the company, so again, you will still probably get in trouble for just saying whatever you want without censoring yourself.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not an anti-feminist, I just hate their vocal minority of idiots. You're lucky I even took you seriously after you just plainly said that two hobbies were literally an only-white man club.

I don't feel "lucky" that you replied to a series of legitimate points responding to a conversation that you started just because you don't like my criticism of industries that we both like, and that is incredibly condescending. If it bothers you that much, then just don't respond.

"update with the times"? What does that mean? Are you saying we should conform to how others feel we should talk? There is a time and place to say stuff, and I understand one should not say a racist joke at the workplace (its a private company and if the company wants, they can get fired), but who cares if someone says something racist in public? Or sexist? Or anything? Just ignore it! Its their loss, really! If people try to conform to only using politically correct terms, it would be impossible. Someone is always offended at something.

"Update with the times" means recognizing that we live in a time and place where our society is diverse, when we understand the history and needs of different groups therein, and changing what we believe and say accordingly. It used to be perfectly acceptable to use incredibly demeaning (and incorrect) terms when talking about First Nations/native people because they were an "other" to us, but we live in a multicultural society where we know and recognize this history of racism against them, and so continuing to use those terms is regressive and ridiculous, not to mention insulting. Also, they literally asked us to stop using those terms, and doing something despite being asked not to do it goes against the most basic human decency. If someone sees that as "conforming to how others feel we should talk," I am happy to "conform" if it means not being an asshole, because it is so easy that a child can do it.

Nobody can stop you from making racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. comments in public if that's what you want, but that doesn't absolve you from criticism. Free speech works both ways, and anyone who wants to make those comments shouldn't be surprised by the backlash.

Being politically correct isn't that difficult, and it really isn't that much of a burden. You claim it's just words, right? Well, words are easy to change, so it shouldn't be a big deal to change your words when requested. As for "Someone is always offended at something," sure - so when they ask us to do better, we make an effort, because we should always seek to do better.

Are you saying game devs should not be allowed to use racist or sexist jokes? They are not failures if these jokes make money! Its just a different style of humor.

When did I say they can't use racist or sexist jokes? When did I say that those kinds of jokes can't make money? No, I said that using those jokes is a reflection on the creator, and shows that they lack originality and creativity if they have to rely on that kind of humour to do well. To me, someone who can't craft a joke to punch up instead of down is not a quality content creator who is in touch with modern day society, and could stand to be replaced. I am always demanding better in entertainment - improved graphics, more original designs, and sensibilities that are more in touch with the society we live in. That's how you get better content.


~Psychic

 

[Somewhere_]

"Update with the times" means recognizing that we live in a time and place where our society is diverse, when we understand the history and needs of different groups therein, and changing what we believe and say accordingly. It used to be perfectly acceptable to use incredibly demeaning (and incorrect) terms when talking about First Nations/native people because they were an "other" to us, but we live in a multicultural society where we know and recognize this history of racism against them, and so continuing to use those terms is regressive and ridiculous, not to mention insulting. Also, they literally asked us to stop using those terms, and doing something despite being asked not to do it goes against the most basic human decency. If someone sees that as "conforming to how others feel we should talk," I am happy to "conform" if it means not being an asshole, because it is so easy that a child can do it.

Nobody can stop you from making racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. comments in public if that's what you want, but that doesn't absolve you from criticism. Free speech works both ways, and anyone who wants to make those comments shouldn't be surprised by the backlash.

Being politically correct isn't that difficult, and it really isn't that much of a burden. You claim it's just words, right? Well, words are easy to change, so it shouldn't be a big deal to change your words when requested. As for "Someone is always offended at something," sure - so when they ask us to do better, we make an effort, because we should always seek to do better.


When did I say they can't use racist or sexist jokes? When did I say that those kinds of jokes can't make money? No, I said that using those jokes is a reflection on the creator, and shows that they lack originality and creativity if they have to rely on that kind of humour to do well. To me, someone who can't craft a joke to punch up instead of down is not a quality content creator who is in touch with modern day society, and could stand to be replaced. I am always demanding better in entertainment - improved graphics, more original designs, and sensibilities that are more in touch with the society we live in. That's how you get better content.


~Psychic

I would agree with you in that its wrong to say such words. And if one does, they should expect retaliation, so it does indeed go both ways. Of course, we should speak a certain way, but that does not mean that we can not speak certain offensive words. I agree with you haha.

I misunderstood your statement on the game devs. My bad.

My issue with political correctness are the people who take it too far and actually want to restrict freedom of speech (granted they are a minority). Otherwise, its a good way to have good manners. :)

 

[gimmepie]

I think that political correctness does have a place in the world, but in general we do take the concept too far. In the Australian education system, prospective teachers are taught that we should be using "people first language". Basically, you can't say "Johnny is blind" it has to be "Johnny has a vision impairment" and it's not "Little Susie is autistic" it's "Little Susie is a person who has autism". As an autistic person, I was quite literally told
I can't describe myself or anyone else as "being autistic". That's pretty stupid and if people are getting offended by language like that, they're the ones that have the problem.

I also firmly believe that political correctness has no place in comedy, in comedy everyone should be fair game and everyone should get a piece. We shouldn't restrict an art form based on sensibilities, people should just accept that everything being said is in jest and move along.

This isn't to say that we should just go around saying whatever we want without considering the people around us. As a whole it's not a bad idea to think before you speak and to make just a small effort not to offend people. I don't think that we need to go to some of the extremes that we do though. Moderation is best.

 

[Kanzler]

We censor ourselves to some degree all the time, that's true. But we only express our indignation at it because it's extreme, as we would with many other aspects of life. We tolerate mediocrity in music and film, but voice our outcry if it's horrendous. We tolerate government infringements of our rights as a necessary evil, but protest when the infringement is unfair. Those of us who see political correctness as harmful censorship perceive the political correctness movement as overstepping merely treating people with respect, by imposing standards where there isn't necessarily one and stifling rightfully free speech in the process. In short - it's extreme.

 

[Psychic]

I would agree with you in that its wrong to say such words. And if one does, they should expect retaliation, so it does indeed go both ways. Of course, we should speak a certain way, but that does not mean that we can not speak certain offensive words. I agree with you haha.

I misunderstood your statement on the game devs. My bad.

My issue with political correctness are the people who take it too far and actually want to restrict freedom of speech (granted they are a minority). Otherwise, its a good way to have good manners. :)

Fair enough!

You always get people taking things too far, though - I brought up the Westboro Baptist Church before because they're an example of radical Christians who are widely despised, but we don't assume they speak for all Christians. Not everyone who champions political correctness takes it to the extreme, and most of us just want everyone to be respectful and make concessions in our language when we're asked to. :>

We censor ourselves to some degree all the time, that's true. But we only express our indignation at it because it's extreme, as we would with many other aspects of life. We tolerate mediocrity in music and film, but voice our outcry if it's horrendous. We tolerate government infringements of our rights as a necessary evil, but protest when the infringement is unfair. Those of us who see political correctness as harmful censorship perceive the political correctness movement as overstepping merely treating people with respect, by imposing standards where there isn't necessarily one and stifling rightfully free speech in the process. In short - it's extreme.

But political correctness isn't always extreme, and the radical people you're thinking of are in the minority, just like the WBC is the minority of Christians. Using that rhetoric as a reason why the entire movement should be discounted doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry to hear that you tolerate mediocrity and government infringement, that's a shame. But some of us expect more, and we ask for it. Society cannot move forward if we are always passive and don't make pushes forward - that's what criticism and activism are all about. That said, it's also very convenient for certain members of society to be passive - some of us have nothing to gain by being more considerate of others, especially of minorities who have historically been looked down on and exploited. Political correctness is not for our own benefit, so a lot of people scoff at it. But the fact that it doesn't benefit us is exactly the reason we should be employing it. Acknowledging and giving a voice to those who historically have been largely ignored is exactly how we progress as a society.

~Psychic

 

[mew_nani]

I know I'll likely be put down for saying this, but I despise political correctness. And I don't mean the whole "try to use nice sounding language so the person your talking to doesn't end up hurt" political correctness, which is really more just being polite in general. I mean the political correctness where you have to censor your speech, artwork, and anything else you do because it might offend some obscure group that apparently gets offended at the mere mention of the subject. I tend to get hit with that more often than not, because I'm a Christian, and one that errs more on the fundamental side than the lukewarm side. I'm generally mellow, and while I might think some things are wrong because of my religious beliefs I try not to offend and let people do what they wish. What they do is none of my business after all, and as long as it's not in my face I couldn't care less about it. But just bringing up Christianity in a chat board will get you banned from it faster than a bowling ball hitting the ground from the top of a tree. Not "ur a %@$ sinner ur guna go to h3ll" statements, just bringing up that specific religion at all. The mere mention of it offends. I've gotten banned from Skype groups twice because I brought it up unintentionally and people got offended and a big fight ensued, and had to flee from a forum because I got into a debate with someone and the other guy wouldn't back down and let people believe differently than he.

Christianity, any mention of the Civil War, and pretty much anything and everything can be offensive to some people, and those things tend to get shut down the minute they're brought up. I don't need to mention the college students censoring Civil War memorials and refusing to go to class because they're offended by some thing or another (Halloween costumes? Really?) And then there's things on the other side of the board like gay rights, Islam, pretty much any minority group, and feminism that are sacred objects that must never be disgraced, ever. If you do, you're a bigot, a homophobe, a hater, what have you. Since when were certain ideas evil by merely existing and others sacred cows? Since when did we decide people should be shouted out of the conversation because they might disagree with something?

Part of having a debate is being able to talk about subjects and come to an understanding about them. If you can't do that because you either can't bring up the subject at all, or can't vocally disagree with something, having a true debate is impossible. You just can't compare viewpoints at all if you or the other person gets shut down immediately because someone gets offended. Not to mention the censoring of history and artistic mediums like video games or even pictures (do I need to mention that poor girl that ended up getting driven to attempting suicide because people got offended by her art and started hounding her all hours of the night?). If we whitewash history by scrubbing away all the parts we don't like, we can't really learn about history at all because we're not getting the full picture. And you can't really express yourself if you can't draw a certain way because people will get offended and shut you down.

Political correctness as we've come to know it in this day and age isn't a matter of being polite anymore. It's pretty much censorship of anything people find offensive, but only if you're part of some group. We can't learn things completely if we put our fingers in our ears and shout at the top of our lungs trying to drown everything out because someone mentioned a religion or a moment in history that was fraught with bloodshed and tragedy, and we can't learn things if we put duck tape over the other person's mouth if they disagree with something we hold dear. Part of growing up is accepting we get offended by things and trying to listen to the other person anyway. Trying to drown out everything we don't like is childish behavior that only holds everyone back and causes problems.

That's my opinion on political correctness. Trying to not be offensive to someone who's hurt or has a disability or a bad past is one thing, but if we have to agree to everything and never bring up things that disagree with that, we're stunting ourselves as people. And that's pretty much all I have to say on the subject.

 

[Grey Wind]

1). Yes.
2). No, but it shouldn't be happening at all.
3). My own views? It's not my fault I see people taking "Don't be a dick" to "Attack this person because their ideology isn't straight!" almost all the time.
5). By that logic, how about I post a bunch of examples of the majority in politically correct culture, aka the SJWs? You're just a minority when it comes to political correctness if you essentially think it's just "don't be a dick".

My point is not that these people don't exist, or that they're right or anything. It's that a) you're blowing their existence out of proportion, b) they don't reflect the majority of of people, especially off the internet, and c) there are extremists out there promoting virtually every set of ideals, and just because you've found some on the internet that happen to believe in political correctness doesn't mean that the idea is an inherently bad one.

4). GamerGate was never misogynistic. Otherwise, why the hell would they have donated to a radical feminist group such as The Fine Young Capitalists? You're the one defending a pathological liar who used cronyism and corruption to get better game coverage on her mediocre game. The radical feminists spewed a rhetoric because we decided to criticize her for doing it. The only ones who were sending death threats and doxxing people at a huge scale were those PC nuts. It got to the damn point to where people wished TotalBiscuit would die by his cancer just because he was critical of Quinn.

What? I'm not defending anyone. I couldn't care less about GamerGate (and I also don't want to get into a discussion about it). But you're either ignorant or just straight up lying if you're trying to pretend that there wasn't death threats and other types of harassment coming from the pro-GamerGate side.

 

[Thepowaofhax]

My point is not that these people don't exist, or that they're right or anything. It's that a) you're blowing their existence out of proportion, b) they don't reflect the majority of of people, especially off the internet, and c) there are extremists out there promoting virtually every set of ideals, and just because you've found some on the internet that happen to believe in political correctness doesn't mean that the idea is an inherently bad one.



What? I'm not defending anyone. I couldn't care less about GamerGate (and I also don't want to get into a discussion about it). But you're either ignorant or just straight up lying if you're trying to pretend that there wasn't death threats and other types of harassment coming from the pro-GamerGate side.
I said that the other side dished out more harassment than us. Anyways, we should probably get off of this.

I do bid you this; why is it so common to see people getting fired because they made a joke that a group of people on the internet got offended for someone else? Because I see it almost every week. We also have majorities in college wanting freedom of speech dead and safe spaces because someone might hurt their feelings over one measly word, and we have colleges banning phrases because political correctness. Just look at the University of California.

 

[Mana1]

I do bid you this; why is it so common to see people getting fired because they made a joke that a group of people on the internet got offended for someone else? Because I see it almost every week. We also have majorities in college wanting freedom of speech dead and safe spaces because someone might hurt their feelings over one measly word, and we have colleges banning phrases because political correctness. Just look at the University of California.

Question - where exactly do you see people being fired weekly? As someone who works in a profession where this would be enforced vigorously, I have never ever heard of someone being fired for racist/sexist/hate speech online. Even on the news, in the UK, I only recall a small handful of stories.

So perhaps its just that the people you're hearing it about are taking it to incredibly lengths, rather than one accidental/untasteful joke.

 

[Thepowaofhax]

Question - where exactly do you see people being fired weekly? As someone who works in a profession where this would be enforced vigorously, I have never ever heard of someone being fired for racist/sexist/hate speech online. Even on the news, in the UK, I only recall a small handful of stories.

So perhaps its just that the people you're hearing it about are taking it to incredibly lengths, rather than one accidental/untasteful joke.

I don't think it's long lengths. Now, one of them did say racist jokes, but it was on their private profile. His name was Clementine Ford, and all he had to do was insult a radical feminist. There's also that Nobel Peace Prize winner in Kora who was fired over a joke about women, but I cannot remember his name at the time. I think it was Tim Hunt. There was also an attempt on a youtuber named Phil Mason because he received the ire of a feminist, which makes sense since he constantly criticizes them. I don't really know much about Phil Mason.

I normally find it on news sites barring Fox News and other politically biased ****.

 

[Mana1]

I don't think it's long lengths. Now, one of them did say racist jokes, but it was on their private profile. His name was Clementine Ford, and all he had to do was insult a radical feminist. There's also that Nobel Peace Prize winner in Kora who was fired over a joke about women, but I cannot remember his name at the time. I think it was Tim Hunt. There was also an attempt on a youtuber named Phil Mason because he received the ire of a feminist, which makes sense since he constantly criticizes them. I don't really know much about Phil Mason.

I normally find it on news sites barring Fox News and other politically biased ****.

Googling the first two names gave me nothing, and the Youtuber doesn't seem to have been fired, but had his account temporarily suspended for abuse, which is against the user agreement.

So again, have you actually experienced people being fired weekly or are you just generalising "one or two a year" into "every week?"

 

[Thepowaofhax]

Googling the first two names gave me nothing, and the Youtuber doesn't seem to have been fired, but had his account temporarily suspended for abuse, which is against the user agreement.

So again, have you actually experienced people being fired weekly or are you just generalising "one or two a year" into "every week?"

Here for Michael Nolan. I confused him with the actual Feminist, forgive me. This is Tim Hunt.

Now for weekly, I don't experience it in real life. I just see stories of either a bunch of political correct idiots trying to get someone fired and/or them getting fired.

It seems I was unclear: historically, comedy and video gaming have been predominantly ruled by straight white dudes who have felt free to do or say whatever they wanted, and haven't really been challenged for it. Frankly, it is still difficult to be a woman in either of those industries, despite the improving female presence. This is a widely-known fact.

This is all I need to know that you can't be taken seriously. It's not like the gaming industry was ruled by Nintendo and Sega a long time ago, and last time I checked, they happened to be Japanese companies. Maybe not Sega, but I know for a fact Nintendo is Japanese.

 

[maccrash]

I have not read this entire thread -- I stopped after, like, post 24. but it's seriously disheartening to see people try to shrug off racist, sexist, homophobic, etc jokes under the guise of "freedom of speech" and "why can't we say anything we want." this is such an antiquated, stunted way of thinking -- like, I guess you can make really bad jokes using the n-word or whatever but don't expect to just then be exempted from any criticism as a result. it's pathetic to hear someone make a bigoted joke and then just hide behind the excuse of "I'm Just Kidding!!! It's My Job!!"

also the shots at "SJW's" and "feminists" are continuously some of the funniest things I've ever heard: it seems like anyone who wants to make a sweeping generalization of either of these groups have literally 0 experience actually talking to someone that's involved with either of those ""movements."" I guarantee you that the vast, vast, VAST majority of people who self-identify as a "feminist" or "socially conscious" have never resorted to any of the things mentioned here. "neo-Progressives want to kill our free speech, neo-Progressives bring about hate speech such as the Black Lives Matter group want cops dead, and so on and so forth." What?

also "but who cares if someone says something racist in public? Or sexist? Or anything? Just ignore it!" it's not this simple. it will never be this simple. it's reductive to think it's this simple.

 

[Thepowaofhax]

I have not read this entire thread -- I stopped after, like, post 24. but it's seriously disheartening to see people try to shrug off racist, sexist, homophobic, etc jokes under the guise of "freedom of speech" and "why can't we say anything we want." this is such an antiquated, stunted way of thinking -- like, I guess you can make really bad jokes using the n-word or whatever but don't expect to just then be exempted from any criticism as a result. it's pathetic to hear someone make a bigoted joke and then just hide behind the excuse of "I'm Just Kidding!!! It's My Job!!"
I have an idea, maybe if you don't like those kind of jokes, maybe you should just either ignore that person in real life or block them on the internet! Problem solved. Forcing political correctness onto someone who is really bigoted will never work anyways.

also the shots at "SJW's" and "feminists" are continuously some of the funniest things I've ever heard: it seems like anyone who wants to make a sweeping generalization of either of these groups have literally 0 experience actually talking to someone that's involved with either of those ""movements."" I guarantee you that the vast, vast, VAST majority of people who self-identify as a "feminist" or "socially conscious" have never resorted to any of the things mentioned here. "neo-Progressives want to kill our free speech, neo-Progressives bring about hate speech such as the Black Lives Matter group want cops dead, and so on and so forth." What?
Did I not say earlier that Feminism wasn't the problem and it was their vocal minority? Why are there colleges and students protesting against freedom of speech, such as Yale? Why is the Black Lives Matter movement chanting **** like "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon," as well as resorting to violent protesting?

also "but who cares if someone says something racist in public? Or sexist? Or anything? Just ignore it!" it's not this simple. it will never be this simple. it's reductive to think it's this simple. It will always be simple. If you're felled by mere words, you're just weak and need to grow thick skin.

 

[Grey Wind]

I do bid you this; why is it so common to see people getting fired because they made a joke that a group of people on the internet got offended for someone else? Because I see it almost every week.

It's not common. I've seen a handful of cases, and honestly, I don't see the problem for the majority. It's common knowledge that companies are likely to keep an eye on your social media, and if you're gonna be publicly spouting bigoted comments then you should be prepared to face the consequences.

We also have majorities in college wanting freedom of speech dead and safe spaces because someone might hurt their feelings over one measly word, and we have colleges banning phrases because political correctness. Just look at the University of California.

See, this is the problem with you. You're basically inventing these issues and creating the problems yourself. "Majorities in colleges want free speech dead" ... no? They don't? If you didn't needlessly jump to conclusions and exaggerate every story you hear then maybe you wouldn't feel this way. It's been explained multiples times in this thread why political correctness doesn't infringe upon freedom of speech.

The idea behind safe spaces is literally just to provide a place where marginalized groups won't face harassment. If you have a problem with people wanting a place to feel comfortable and not face discrimination then... I don't know what to tell you.

The California thing does seem a bit over the top, but I don't really see the problem. All they're doing is educating their professors on what language to use so they don't cause unnecessary trouble with their students... which they're obviously going to want to do as a university. Again, mountain out of a molehill.

Why is the Black Lives Matter movement chanting **** like "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon," as well as resorting to violent protesting?

They're not.

It will always be simple. If you're felled by mere words, you're just weak and need to grow thick skin.

I don't get why people are like this. Like, I just don't understand how you can tell someone that bigoted comments/action just don't matter. Obviously it depends on the person and what's actually said, but if you haven't actually experienced discrimination based on race/sexuality/whathaveyou then you really have no place to tell someone how to react.

Or maybe you should take your own advice and stop being so offended by "SJWs"?

also the shots at "SJW's" and "feminists" are continuously some of the funniest things I've ever heard: it seems like anyone who wants to make a sweeping generalization of either of these groups have literally 0 experience actually talking to someone that's involved with either of those ""movements.""

Also THIIIIIIS.

 

[Thepowaofhax]

It's not common. I've seen a handful of cases, and honestly, I don't see the problem for the majority. It's common knowledge that companies are likely to keep an eye on your social media, and if you're gonna be publicly spouting bigoted comments then you should be prepared to face the consequences.
Really? Because I see a bunch of radical feminists spewing **** like #killallmen. I'd still defend them even if they were being charged, such as Bahar Mustafa. It's still their freedom of speech, and if it is a private Facebook and not a public one it shouldn't matter until it leaks into the public one and they start spouting hate speech.


See, this is the problem with you. You're basically inventing these issues and creating the problems yourself. "Majorities in colleges want free speech dead" ... no? They don't? If you didn't needlessly jump to conclusions and exaggerate every story you hear then maybe you wouldn't feel this way. It's been explained multiples times in this thread why political correctness doesn't infringe upon freedom of speech. It is a majority. Just look at any college in America. You will have a majority of idiotic college students who don't want to here other peoples opinions, claim that x is privileged when they are themselves privileged, and other holier-than-thou ****.

The idea behind safe spaces is literally just to provide a place where marginalized groups won't face harassment. If you have a problem with people wanting a place to feel comfortable and not face discrimination then... I don't know what to tell you. The idea of safe spaces are to save our idiot college students from other opinions because they don't feel like wanting to listen to them.

The California thing does seem a bit over the top, but I don't really see the problem. All they're doing is educating their professors on what language to use so they don't cause unnecessary trouble with their students... which they're obviously going to want to do as a university. Again, mountain out of a molehill. So you don't find it a problem for not stating facts such as America is the land of opportunity? I find this idiotic that you would be pro-censorship over this kind of phrase.



They're not.
Explain why Baltimore burned then. Because, you know, that had nothing to do with Black Lives Matter and similar ****.


I don't get why people are like this. Like, I just don't understand how you can tell someone that bigoted comments/action just don't matter. Obviously it depends on the person and what's actually said, but if you haven't actually experienced discrimination based on race/sexuality/whathaveyou then you really have no place to tell someone how to react. If I have no place, then why do the neo-Progressives think they have a place to be offended for other people? Clearly that is illogical. Again, we can ignore and use block buttons if they're just spouting racist/sexist ****. If they're doing bigoted actions, spewing hate speech, or discriminating people (such as denying someone a job based on sex), then they should be fired.

Or maybe you should take your own advice and stop being so offended by "SJWs"?

I'm not offended by them, I'm sick of their characters. They're toxic. If I was truly offended by them, there would be a huge rant here.


Also THIIIIIIS.

 

[Kanzler]

But political correctness isn't always extreme, and the radical people you're thinking of are in the minority, just like the WBC is the minority of Christians. Using that rhetoric as a reason why the entire movement should be discounted doesn't make sense.

That's what you might think, but many of us perceive some of the things that political correctness call for as being extreme. It's not just about radical people. And even then, some of the basic principles of political correctness are questionable - take Sopheria's argument that the emphasis on limiting speech to certain sanctioned formulations tends to censorship. Do you agree or disagree with that, for instance? I think that issue, and others more, are up for debate.

The idea that words have consequences isn't controversial at all. Much of the progress that political correctness has given us are things that we don't even explicitly talk about any more - they have become so politically correct that we no longer question them. The controversy is where some of the new euphemisms do not seem to add value to our collective vocabulary and even add negative consequences (gimmiepie being told that it's inappropriate for him to self-identify as an autistic person). If there's controversy, there's going to be debate, hence this thread. I don't believe the criticism for political correctness is misplaced, and if it's acceptable for us to critique society, then it should be acceptable for us to critique political correctness.

I'm sorry to hear that you tolerate mediocrity and government infringement, that's a shame.

Don't be sorry, for it wasn't myself I was talking about, but of society in general.

 

[Psychic]

This is all I need to know that you can't be taken seriously. It's not like the gaming industry was ruled by Nintendo and Sega a long time ago, and last time I checked, they happened to be Japanese companies. Maybe not Sega, but I know for a fact Nintendo is Japanese.

I'm sorry to hear that criticism of an industry we both like is so intimidating to you that you resort to being condescending and claiming that I "can't be taken seriously." The rest of my points still stand.

You are welcome to look up the many, many accounts from women in both comedy and video gaming who talk about the sexism and the difficulty in being taken seriously in those industries, which has only recently started to improve. I love stand-up and video gaming, but to pretend that this problem doesn't exist is to ignore the many people who have come forward with their stories over the years, and to ignore the fact that we still ask ridiculous questions like "can women be funny?" and "do girls like video games?"

I know I'll likely be put down for saying this, but I despise political correctness. And I don't mean the whole "try to use nice sounding language so the person your talking to doesn't end up hurt" political correctness, which is really more just being polite in general. I mean the political correctness where you have to censor your speech, artwork, and anything else you do because it might offend some obscure group that apparently gets offended at the mere mention of the subject. I tend to get hit with that more often than not, because I'm a Christian, and one that errs more on the fundamental side than the lukewarm side. I'm generally mellow, and while I might think some things are wrong because of my religious beliefs I try not to offend and let people do what they wish. What they do is none of my business after all, and as long as it's not in my face I couldn't care less about it. But just bringing up Christianity in a chat board will get you banned from it faster than a bowling ball hitting the ground from the top of a tree. Not "ur a %@$ sinner ur guna go to h3ll" statements, just bringing up that specific religion at all. The mere mention of it offends. I've gotten banned from Skype groups twice because I brought it up unintentionally and people got offended and a big fight ensued, and had to flee from a forum because I got into a debate with someone and the other guy wouldn't back down and let people believe differently than he.

I just want to say I'm sorry to hear you've gotten banned just for mentioning your religion. That is absolutely not what political correctness is about. It's likely that you were banned because they were afraid of a debate/argument starting, which, as you said, would be ridiculous, since healthy debate is important.

That's what you might think, but many of us perceive some of the things that political correctness call for as being extreme. It's not just about radical people. And even then, some of the basic principles of political correctness are questionable - take Sopheria's argument that the emphasis on limiting speech to certain sanctioned formulations tends to censorship. Do you agree or disagree with that, for instance? I think that issue, and others more, are up for debate.

Again, the kind of censorship political correctness talks about is the came basic form of self-censorship we use everyday so as to function in society. We are social creatures, and to be integrated into society we can't say every single thing that comes to mind - political correctness takes that further by adding "hey, we always thought that saying xyz was okay, but now we realize that it isn't, so please don't say xyz anymore."

This really isn't asking very much in the grand scheme of things - it's little things we can all do that acknowledges where our society is right now, and accepts that we have been treating people inappropriately for a really long time. A lot of people don't benefit from political correctness, so it's unsurprising that they're the ones who push back against it the most, yet those are exactly the people who should be politically correct, because it involves acknowledging that privilege. Political correctness is showing basic human empathy. If that is seen as censorship, I am happy to self-censor if it means I'm being a decent human being.

The idea that words have consequences isn't controversial at all. Much of the progress that political correctness has given us are things that we don't even explicitly talk about any more - they have become so politically correct that we no longer question them. The controversy is where some of the new euphemisms do not seem to add value to our collective vocabulary and even add negative consequences (gimmiepie being told that it's inappropriate for him to self-identify as an autistic person). If there's controversy, there's going to be debate, hence this thread. I don't believe the criticism for political correctness is misplaced, and if it's acceptable for us to critique society, then it should be acceptable for us to critique political correctness.

Criticism of political correctness is perfectly acceptable and healthy, but multiple people here are completely demonizing it and claiming it has no place. Can political correctness be taken too far? Well, can Christianity be taken too far? Anything can be taken to an extreme, but it's still possible to find a healthy balance. But instead of demonizing it entirely, we should have a dialogue about finding that sweet spot.


~Psychic