Rant: Usefulness > design.

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

It's about time I ranted again. DA did it, why shouldn't I?

Warning: if you don't like rants, kindly click the back button.

It's OK to like a Pokemon for its design and it's OK to like a Pokemon for its stats.

But the fact that some Pokemon have more usage than others, despite the fact that they are less useful, is absolutely ridiculous. "I don't care about X's stats, if it looks ugly I won't use it" is a message I keep reading on Pokemon fansites and I've had enough.

It's clearly due to design. FACT: DESIGN. DOESN'T. MATTER. AT. ALL. COMPETITIVELY.

Anyway, what frustrates me more and more is that most people here and on other communities believe design is much better than usefulness and is what makes people choose their favourites. I mean who actually LIKES Ferrothorn, one that has never played competitively? The answer is almost nobody. Here are some examples.

Exhibit A: Kyurem vs Glaceon
Allow me to point to my eeveelution thread. Kyurem is the mascot of BW2, Glaceon is another Eevee evolution which you can get by exposing it to an Icy Rock. Hell, if you asked me Kyurem has a better design than Glaceon. It has a cool icy tail, blue-ish wings and a fierce look that shows you DO NOT want to **** with it. And that's just the normal form, the fused forms might be a bit overdesigned, especially Kyurem-White, but at least they look like well-shaped dragons and have cool-looking power cords. Glaceon on the other hand, is your typical cookie-cutter icy fox with a bland design. On the battling field, Kyurem completely crushes Glaceon. It has dual 130 attacking stats, better bulk, a better movepool (which includes Draco Meteor, Outrage, Earth Power, Focus Blast...) and a base 95 Speed, compared to Glaceon's 60. What does Glaceon have? A better ability I guess, except Ice Body only works in hail which is probably the worst of the 4 weathers. And obviously that's Kyurem-N vs Glaceon, Black has 170 Attack and Fusion Bolt, White has 170 Special Attack, Fusion Flare, and is Uber.

DESPITE ALL THAT HOWEVER, GLACEON IS SO MUCH POPULAR THAN KYUREM, THE MASCOT OF POKEMON BW2. WHYYY?!!!! WHY DO PEOPLE CARE SO MUCH ABOUT THE FACT THAT GLACEON IS "CUTE" (I'll admit, it is cute) AND WOULD RATHER USE IT THAN GO TO TOWN WITH KYUREM?! Why would you choose to put Glaceon on your competitive team??? I mean, ****:

| 221 | Glaceon | 0.24699% | 9871 | 0.247% | 6577 | 0.220% |
| 302 | Kyurem | 0.10246% | 4095 | 0.102% | 2980 | 0.099% |
(Stats from here: https://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-09/ou-0.txt)

WHAT THE ****. WHAT THE ****. HOW THE **** DOES GLACEON HAVE 2.5x MORE USAGE THAN KYUREM???

Like I get it Kyurem is usually outclassed by Kyurem-B (except SubRoost which I encourage you all to try it) BUT HOW THE **** DOES A COMPLETELY INFERIOR 'MON GET MORE USAGE?! Why would you ever use Glaceon over Kyurem?

Oh that's right, people choose it because of its design. I thought you battle to win, not to get your ass kicked. And to win, you need powerful, reliable weapons. It's just like choosing Butterfree over Volcarona ffs. The excuse "but legendaries are for noobs lol" is not cool. Articuno is pretty bad, Regigigas is downright terrible, but they are still for noobs because OMG THAT BST. And something that's pretty funny is that one in two people who say legends suck use them themselves.

And of course, there are other Ice-types that dominate Glaceon in every single aspect. Weavile, Mamoswine, Abomasnow, you name it.

It's perfectly fine to like Glaceon, but you should feel bad if you think it's better than Kyurem or the other Ice-types shown above. Having more usage than Kyurem competitively is unfathomable.

Exhibit B: Roserade vs Tangrowth

Roserade is one of those classic Pokemon that gets waaay more love than it should. It's a cool Pokemon, I like it a lot, has a cool design and it's ****ing awesome in-game with its 125 Special Attack and STAB Sludge Bomb. Still, I like Tangrowth more because of its powerful mixed capabilties and huge physical defense, combined with Regenerator.

The same can't be said about most people however, which probably would still like Roserade more even if it didn't have those cool stats. The answer is once again the design. I mean, why?!

| 118 | Roserade | 1.10792% | 44279 | 1.108% | 32534 | 1.086% |
| 143 | Tangrowth | 0.75297% | 30093 | 0.753% | 22945 | 0.766% |

OK, this is less frustrating. Roserade is very usable since it has Toxic Spikes and 125 SpA... but I severely doubt it has more usage just because of its higher Special Attack. 90 speed is cool for a wallbreaker but really isn't enough to outpace a ton of the offensive metagame. Tangrowth, on the other hand, is extremely hard to take out in one hit, especially with Assault Vest, and it has a colorful movepool which allows it to check many threats.

AND THE DIFFERENCE IS 0.35%. IN FAVOUR OF ROSERADE. FFS

See, one thing that makes Roserade appealing is its masquerade theme. Which frankly, doesn't matter competitively, as it's all about stats. "lel tangrowth is ugly as **** roserade is awesome" - this kind of mentality is present both in-game and competitively. Depressingly much.

If it makes you change your mind, Tangrowth is B rank on the viability ranking thread, while Roserade is C-. Of course this thread is a bit unreliable (mega diancie is A+ rofl wtf) but it's one of the best resources we have at this moment.

Exhibit C: Milotic and Vaporeon vs Alomomola

| 58 | Milotic | 2.54142% | 101570 | 2.541% | 75888 | 2.533% |
| 83 | Vaporeon | 1.71326% | 68472 | 1.713% | 50833 | 1.697% |
| 170 | Alomomola | 0.48239% | 19279 | 0.482% | 14632 | 0.488% |

OK YOU'RE JUST SCREWING WITH ME NOW. MILOTIC AND VAPOREON COMBINED GET 4.3% WHILE ALOMOMOLA, A POKEMON THAT COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY OUTCLASSES THEM, GETS 0.5% USAGE.

This is utterly undescribable, it's just ridiculous as ****. I get it. Milotic and Vaporeon were usable last gens. But we're in 2015. We're in Gen 6.

"But Vodka, Alomomola has a terrible special attack stat and its HP is its only good stat! Milotic and Vaporeon are good attackers!". The simple threat of Scald would make even a Pokemon with 1 Special Attack and Alomomola's stats pretty damn good. Uninvested 100/110 Special Attack won't be doing a lot of damage, trust me. You can try to use them as special attackers, but Keldeo exists. Besides, do Milotic and Vaporeon get Knock Off? I guess they both get Mirror Coat but Alomomola's huge HP stat means it can OHKO anything? And on top of that, why would you use it when there's Wobbuffet?

So of course design has to play a huge part. I agree that Milotic is the most beautiful Pokemon in existence. I agree it's stunning. What I do not agree with, however, is your thoughts that design matters competitively. Vaporeon has a fairly bland design seeing as it's an Eeveelution, but it's still cute I guess? And "lmao alomomola looks sooo stupid and boring lel"... I can hear those words.

Both Milotic and Vaporeon are completely unviable in OU. I guess Vappy had its days in the Baton Pass era but that's gone. So there's no reason to use it over Alomomola, except for its design. Yet it has 3x more usage.

/rant


So yeah, the important thing to know is that competitively, design doesn't matter one single bit. It's a pain to see scrubs on the low ladder bringing Glaceon and Electivire and Milotic and Ambipom and other completely unviable stuff purely due to their designs.

In-game it's perfectly fine to use them, you can beat the game with any Pokemon. Competitively however you'll be playing humans like you and me. All Pokemon are at level 100 and you need something called "strategy". You can't do that with your ass.

 

[Nah]

You do know that the vast majority of people who are like "design>everything else" are noobs and non-competitive players, right? And that those people tend to make up the majority of most Pokemon websites? You're sort of preaching to the choir here.

But at the same time we all are human and won't always do the objectively best thing and sometimes do (seemingly) irrational things.

Though

| 221 | Glaceon | 0.24699% | 9871 | 0.247% | 6577 | 0.220% |
| 302 | Kyurem | 0.10246% | 4095 | 0.102% | 2980 | 0.099% |

this is ****ed up, what's that SubRoost set so I can start raising Kyurem's OU usage lol

 

[punkysaur]

You do know that the vast majority of people who are like "design>everything else" are noobs and non-competitive players, right? And that those people tend to make up the majority of most Pokemon websites? You're sort of preaching to the choir here.

But at the same time we all are human and won't always do the objectively best thing and sometimes do (seemingly) irrational things.

Though

this is ****ed up, what's that SubRoost set so I can start raising Kyurem's OU usage lol

Yeah!Those who play pokemon just for fun and not competitiveness like to support the beauty tier rather than usefullness tier!
But in the wise words of a sage"Beauty is in the eyes of the trainer"!Also in a competitive sense why should we worry about anyone who isn't competitive!

P.S.-Took me almost 3 days to read the whole thread!Now gonna sleep peacefully!

 

[Dark Azelf]

| 118 | Roserade | 1.10792% | 44279 | 1.108% | 32534 | 1.086% |
| 143 | Tangrowth | 0.75297% | 30093 | 0.753% | 22945 | 0.766% |

OK, this is less frustrating. Roserade is very usable since it has Toxic Spikes and 125 SpA... but I severely doubt it has more usage just because of its higher Special Attack. 90 speed is cool for a wallbreaker but really isn't enough to outpace a ton of the offensive metagame. Tangrowth, on the other hand, is extremely hard to take out in one hit, especially with Assault Vest, and it has a colorful movepool which allows it to check many threats.

AND THE DIFFERENCE IS 0.35%. IN FAVOUR OF ROSERADE. FFS

See, one thing that makes Roserade appealing is its masquerade theme. Which frankly, doesn't matter competitively, as it's all about stats. "lel tangrowth is ugly as **** roserade is awesome" - this kind of mentality is present both in-game and competitively. Depressingly much.

If it makes you change your mind, Tangrowth is B rank on the viability ranking thread, while Roserade is C-. Of course this thread is a bit unreliable (mega diancie is A+ rofl wtf) but it's one of the best resources we have at this moment.

This is kinda misleading. Roserade is a very good defensive pokemon too in that it also has a very nice defensive niche and ive used it to great success in ou. Its kind of like a splice between a better supporting version of Venusaur and Amoongus. It also absorbs status which is VERY effective when everyone and their mother flings status around and coincidentally Roserade checks nearly all that **** with Natural Cure which also allows it to get a 100% free heal every time it uses Rest and switches which give it surprisingly good longevity with Giga Drain in its arsenal aswell. It also checks key pokemon such as Keldeo, Non Psychic/Ice Beam Manaphy, Breloom, Azu, Clefable, Rotom-W etc. Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Leech Seed, Aromatherapy are also amazing options on it too as i alluded to earlier for supporting your team. Leech Seed and Sludge Bomb's poison rate are also a reason along with its base 125 S.Atk that not many spinners or Defoggers want alot to do with anything Rose does so its a good spiker, even Sableye hates being poisoned by Sludge Bomb which puts it in a very awk position. Basically Roserade is a better team supporter than Tangrowth and arguably has a more useful typing, anything Tangrowth has in its support movepool, Roserade can do the same or almost the same minus Knock Off and irrelevant random crap like AncientPower (rofl). This also amplified when Tangrowth wears an assault vest because then it cant utilize its support movepool minus Knock Off so yea.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

This is kinda misleading. Roserade is a very good defensive pokemon too in that it also has a very nice defensive niche and ive used it to great success in ou. Its kind of like a splice between a better supporting version of Venusaur and Amoongus. It also absorbs status which is VERY effective when everyone and their mother flings status around and coincidentally Roserade checks nearly all that **** with Natural Cure which also allows it to get a 100% free heal every time it uses Rest and switches which give it surprisingly good longevity with Giga Drain in its arsenal aswell. It also checks key pokemon such as Keldeo, Non Psychic/Ice Beam Manaphy, Breloom, Azu, Clefable, Rotom-W etc. Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Leech Seed, Aromatherapy are also amazing options on it too as i alluded to earlier for supporting your team. Leech Seed and Sludge Bomb's poison rate are also a reason along with its base 125 S.Atk that not many spinners or Defoggers want alot to do with anything Rose does so its a good spiker, even Sableye hates being poisoned by Sludge Bomb which puts it in a very awk position. Basically Roserade is a better team supporter than Tangrowth and arguably has a more useful typing, anything Tangrowth has in its support movepool, Roserade can do the same or almost the same minus Knock Off and irrelevant random crap like AncientPower (rofl). This also amplified when Tangrowth wears an assault vest because then it cant utilize its support movepool minus Knock Off so yea.

Yeah, Roserade having Toxic Spikes is awesome. What set did you run? Also wouldn't a simple Toxic Spikes + 3 attacks set accomplish many things the defensive set can do? I mean it gets Technician and thus improved Hidden Power Fire/Ice (you turn HP Fire into what is essentially Flamethrower and Ice into Ice Beam).

Roserade is definitely viable, but imo worse than Tangrowth considering the latter's role is much better appreciated in OU.

this is ****ed up, what's that SubRoost set so I can start raising Kyurem's OU usage lol

Try using the old BW2 set, it still works wonders.

 

[srinator]

*/i feel design is a very important aspect of the game, else why not just print the stats on a piece of paper and play with it in your grandpa pajamas?/*

also half of the mons you might see on the current ladder is probably because how cool they are and not because how good they actually are

 

[Alfieri]

This is the pettiest thing I've heard today lol.

Does it really matter? Let people use what they want. If they're lucky with their choice and set, let them be.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

This is the pettiest thing I've heard today lol.

Does it really matter? Let people use what they want. If they're lucky with their choice and set, let them be.

I don't understand how Glaceon and the other Eeveelutions brainwashed so many minds to the point where Glaceon has double the usage of Kyurem even though it is completely outclassed... I agree that people should use what they want but I thought it'd be common sense to just use the much superior Kyurem. Glaceon is very good in PU, use it there. Not in OU.

In my opinion, the Eeveelution fanbase is the absolute worst (except maybe for the Poke/ContestShipper fanbase) in all of Pokemon. At least Lucario fanboys have a few reasons to be obssesed with it. Lucario itself is a pretty good Swords Dance abuser and has a extremely powerful Mega Evolution that got banned early in XY and is decently usable in Ubers. But when you try to make Pokemon like friggin' Glaceon work in OU, you really should feel bad. Only Sylveon is worth using in the long run.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Yeah, Roserade having Toxic Spikes is awesome. What set did you run? Also wouldn't a simple Toxic Spikes + 3 attacks set accomplish many things the defensive set can do? I mean it gets Technician and thus improved Hidden Power Fire/Ice (you turn HP Fire into what is essentially Flamethrower and Ice into Ice Beam).

Roserade is definitely viable, but imo worse than Tangrowth considering the latter's role is much better appreciated in OU.

No it really wouldnt accomplish anything the defensive set can accomplish. No ability to status absorb, no recovery, inferior ability to take hits. And why you'd pass up Natural Cure on a defensive pokemon is beyond me.

Anyway, this set is probably best suited to stall but it works very well.

Roserade@Black Sludge
248 Hp / 124 Def / 136 Sp.Def
Calm Nature
Trait: Natural Cure
- Rest
- Sludge Bomb
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Aromatherapy
- Giga Drain / Leech Seed

 

[Anti]

user Nah p much covered this, but this is the kind of thread that gives the insufferable "competitive players are all arrogant blowhards" crowd ammunition.

is it really that hard for you to accept that some people are either bad or not particularly interested in being good?

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

user Nah p much covered this, but this is the kind of thread that gives the insufferable "competitive players are all arrogant blowhards" crowd ammunition.

is it really that hard for you to accept that some people are either bad or not particularly interested in being good?

what's really hard for me to accept is that ****ing Glaceon has much more usage than Kyurem. while I do get that some people aren't trying to be good, I do think even they would like to win in a while, and frankly Kyurem is a much better choice -_-

Also this mentality of "I don't care about stats, if it's ugly I won't use it" is just not cool and far more present than the opposite of "I don't care about design, if it's bad I won't use it" (which at least has reasoning on the competitive side). I swear the former is omnipresent (unless smogon but w/e). Don't just go by design when you use a Pokemon.

Of course, I can already see people throwing the Karen quote at me. Three words for them: no true scotsman.

 

[Anti]

you do not seem to grasp that some people legitimately do not care about competitive viability at all. it's not that big of a deal, seriously.

Of course, I can already see people throwing the Karen quote at me. Three words for them: no true scotsman.

yooooo

 

[wolf]

Anyone who wants to use Kyurem will go for Kyurem-Black instead. That's why its usage is so low. There are more players who like Eeveelutions than those who want to use SubRoost Kyurem.

Milotic and Vaporeon are UU while Alomomola is RU. Naturally, newbies will assume that the former two are better.

Anyway, some people enjoy themselves more when they're using Pokemon that they like. Newbies have plenty of resources to inform themselves with, such as the viability rankings threads. No reason to scream at 'em for having a preference to play the game more casually. This sort of attitude where all players must be 100% competitive and use Pokemon that they don't like is really toxic.

Furthermore, Elf's thread addresses competitive players who think they're using the most optimal sets when they really might not be. You're arguing against no one. People aren't suggesting that Milotic is better than Alomomola; instead, there are simply casual battlers on the ladder who either a) enjoy using Pokemon that they like, or b) haven't looked at any proper resources before battling.

This thread is now closed for the above reasons, and because this thread will get nowhere.

No it really wouldnt accomplish anything the defensive set can accomplish. No ability to status absorb, no recovery, inferior ability to take hits. And why you'd pass up Natural Cure on a defensive pokemon is beyond me.

Anyway, this set is probably best suited to stall but it works very well.

Roserade@Black Sludge
248 Hp / 124 Def / 136 Sp.Def
Calm Nature
Trait: Natural Cure
- Rest
- Sludge Bomb
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Aromatherapy
- Giga Drain / Leech Seed

I prefer to use max Def and Bold for stuff like Azumarill and Mega Altaria. It's an alright emergency check for Mega Gyarados too. Aromatherapy > Rest is decent if you need a Spiker and a cleric all in one, which is the main reason I used it in my old stall team. This all depends on the team, of course.