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REAL Punk

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Scyther5

One DEAD GUTTED Shiny Hunter
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    Amphros23 said:
    That is it...we are taking a vote...Now lets actually talk about the punk bands instead of having a fight thread.

    Now alice, NICK is right you better go add the clash to you list cause they are the best british punk band ever! Of course it is the only british punk band i have heard of but still..they rock.
    A vote probebly wont settle things correctly, alot of people around here are total Greenday fans. And its funny I never saw any of these people before their new album, which IMO is pretty bad. I loved all there old stuff but now its just all sellout-ish.
     
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    deathbyalice said:
    Okay you guys. Many of you have been posting stuff:

    Sorry to tell you this, but NONE of that stuff is punk. Thursday is NOT punk, stuff like that is pop music that are tryying to emulate punk without actually getting into the detail of it all.

    REAL punk bands are:
    The Misfits
    The Exploted
    Anti-Flag
    SEX Pistols

    And I doubt any of you actually listen to stuff like that, if you do, then tell me, that would be cool.

    Yeah, i can add quite a few onto that list but let me comment that NEW misfits suck, and they only rocked with Danzig on vocals--not jerry with his horrid voice.

    And many real punks don't consider anti-flag a punk band, they're on a record label with like... killswitch engage, which is whiny metalcore.
     

    jasonresno

    [fight through it]
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    Scyther5 said:
    A vote probebly wont settle things correctly, alot of people around here are total Greenday fans. And its funny I never saw any of these people before their new album, which IMO is pretty bad. I loved all there old stuff but now its just all sellout-ish.

    Honestly, I have bought every album (and been a fan..for ages) and all these people that are hooked on Green Day because of MTV need togo back to their good charlotte, and avril.

    "Out of all the post-Nirvana American alternative bands to break into the music mainstream, Green Day were second only to Pearl Jam in terms of influence. At their core, Green Day were simply punk revivalists, recharging the energy of speedy, catchy three-chord punk-pop songs. Though their music wasn't particularly innovative, they brought the sound of late-'70s punk to a new, younger generation with Dookie, their 1994 major-label debut. Green Day weren't able to sustain their success -- Dookie sold over eight million, while its follow-up, Insomniac, only sold a quarter of its predecessor -- yet their influence was far-reaching because they opened the doors for a flood of American neo-punk, punk metal, and third wave ska revivalists. Green Day were part of the northern California underground punk scene. Childhood friends Billie Joe Armstrong (guitar, vocals) and Mike Dirnt (bass; born Mike Pritchard) formed their first band, Sweet Children, in Rodeo, CA, when they were 14 years old. By 1989, the group had added drummer Al Sobrante and changed its name to Green Day. That year, the band independently released its first EP, 1,000 Hours, which was well-received in the California hardcore punk scene. Soon, the group had signed a contract with the local independent label, Lookout. Green Day's first album, 1,039/Smoothed Out Slappy Hour, was released later that year. Shortly after its release, the band replaced Sobrante with Tre Cool (born Frank Edwin Wright, III); Cool became the band's permanent drummer. Throughout the early '90s, Green Day continued to cultivate a cult following, which only gained strength with the release of their second album, 1992's Kerplunk. The underground success of Kerplunk led to a wave of interest from major record labels; the band eventually decided to sign with Reprise. Dookie, Green Day's major-label debut, was released in the spring of 1994. Thanks to MTV support for the initial single, "Longview," Dookie became a major hit. The album continued to gain momentum throughout the summer, with the second single, "Basket Case," spending five weeks on the top of the American modern rock charts. At the end of the summer, the band stole the show at Woodstock '94, which helped the sales of Dookie increase. By the time the fourth single, "When I Come Around," began its seven-week stay at number one on the modern rock charts in early 1995, Dookie had sold over five million copies in the U.S. alone; it would eventually top eight million in America, selling over ten million copies internationally. Dookie also won the 1994 Grammy for Best Alternative Music Performance. Green Day quickly followed Dookie with Insomniac in the fall of 1995; during the summer, they hit number one again on the modern rock charts with "J.A.R.," their contribution to the Angus soundtrack. Insomniac performed well initially, entering the U.S. charts at number two, and selling over two million copies by the spring of 1996, yet none of its singles -- including the radio favorite "Brain Stew/Jaded" -- were as popular as those from Dookie. In the spring of 1996, Green Day abruptly canceled a European tour, claiming exhaustion. Following the cancellation, the band spent the rest of the year resting and writing new material, issuing Nimrod in late 1997. Their long-awaited follow-up, Warning, was released three years later. ~ Stephen Thomas Erlewine, All Music Guide"

    Nuff said.

    One last thing before I stop posting:
    What is it with you guys? Why cant a band become succesful and still be "punk"? I doubt you guys even understand what punk is. It isn't just a musical genre, it is a lifestyle, an artform. its growing up in the streets with druggie parents, taking your friends, fighting the government, and making it big.

    Someone else commented on how BJ, Tre, and Mike don't live the life of a punk....

    "Billie grew up as the youngest of 6 children. When he was 10 his father died of lung cancer. His mother soon became a waitress at a restaurant named Rod's Hickory Pit, where Mike Dirnt worked as a child. Billie recorded music all throughout his life. At the age of 5 he recorded "Looking For Love," an old Elvis tune. Even though the song didn't get much airplay he went on. In 1987 Billie and Mike Dirnt created a band called Sweet Children (which soon became Green Day). "

    "Mike was born into poverty. His mother was a heroin addict and Mike was soon adopted. His adoptive parents divorced when he was 7. Mike soon left to live on his own, including renting a room in Billie's house. He joined Sweet Children with Billie in 1987 and both have been playing together since they were 11. Mike got married in August of 1996 to his ling time girlfriend Anastatia, and they had a daughter in April of 1997 named Estelle-Desiree. They have now broken up in good terms."
     
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    Thomas

    HAIL HYDRA!
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    syther5 said:
    A vote probebly wont settle things correctly, alot of people around here are total Greenday fans. And its funny I never saw any of these people before their new album, which IMO is pretty bad. I loved all there old stuff but now its just all sellout-ish.
    Thanks for that insult to the REAL greenday fans. Just because some people started supporting green day all of a sudden was because of thier new album. Before that they hadnt had anything new in 2 years. Just because we dont show support through avatars and signature doesnt mean that we became fans just cause of american idiot!
     

    Luvdisc_old

    vs Cleffa
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    All heil deathbyalice. {bows} I agree completely with her. Punk died a long time ago. It is not around anymore. If you listen to punk you listen to music like:

    The Misfits
    Virus
    Exploited
    The Clash
    The Ramones
    Septic Death
    Proletariat
    Articles of Faith

    And the list could go on. Punk was 1970-1980's, really. In the 1990's grunge appeared and punk slowly started to fade away.

    GC is not Punk.
    Green Day is not Punk.
    Sugarcult is not Punk.
    Avril Lavigne is not Punk.
    Simple Plan... well, you catch my drift. People could easily be confused if they are only into mainstream music, but I got news for those people. Get your mind off MTV and into... uh... the computer, or something. I 'unno... MTV really warps the minds of kids with mainstream music and calling it "punk" and such. Boo hoo. You're hurting us all with that talk, MTV.
     

    jasonresno

    [fight through it]
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    Why is it, that when a band has succes they "aren't bunk".

    Green Day is punk. Admit it, it'll make the whole thing run smoother.

    If Green Day was punk 8 years ago (which they were) and they haven't changed, they are still punk.

    Green Day is punk.

    The Misfits
    Virus
    Exploited
    The Clash
    The Ramones
    Septic Death
    Proletariat
    Articles of Faith

    They WERE punk. You kids these days hardly understand punk. it isn't about being on MTV or not. You guys just don't understand.
     

    deathbyalice

    Linden
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    jasonresno said:
    Why is it, that when a band has succes they "aren't bunk".

    Green Day is punk. Admit it, it'll make the whole thing run smoother.

    If Green Day was punk 8 years ago (which they were) and they haven't changed, they are still punk.

    Green Day is punk.

    The Misfits
    Virus
    Exploited
    The Clash
    The Ramones
    Septic Death
    Proletariat
    Articles of Faith

    They WERE punk. You kids these days hardly understand punk. it isn't about being on MTV or not. You guys just don't understand.


    They are NOT punk. as Luvdisc said, punk died a long time ago, there are no real punk bands anymore. Plus most punk bands were not mainstream.
     
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    deathbyalice said:
    They are NOT punk. as Luvdisc said, punk died a long time ago, there are no real punk bands anymore. Plus most punk bands were not mainstream.

    Punk didn't die out... it's still around... but it's not true punk. it's like a sub-genre of punk, like street-punk, crust-punk, d-beat/discore punk, grind... Really intolerable music.

    Good example would be...

    Doom.
    Toxic Narcotic.
    Conflict (started late 80's i think).
    Confused (Jap-core).
    Sephalic Carnage


    But trust me... Green Day, Sugarcult, Staind, WHATEVER--They are not punk. It doesn't matter if they're in a garage or on MTV, their music simply doesn't fit into any categories of punk.
     

    jasonresno

    [fight through it]
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    Give me 5 good reason why Green Day isn't punk, and I'll give you 5 good reasons why you are dead wrong.

    And DeathByAlice, I love how you quote the same post over and over again. that is spam.

    Instead of just posting random bands, also explain to me what mekes these guys more punk than Green Day?

    Doom.
    Toxic Narcotic.
    Conflict (started late 80's i think).
    Confused (Jap-core).
    Sephalic Carnage
     

    deathbyalice

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    Alright, you ready then?

    PUNK:
    Modern usage of the term

    1. Reference to followers of 'punk' culture and music.

    2. In prison slang, the term retains its urban street culture meaning and refers to a male who is treated as a sexual submissive.

    3. Social and political set of beliefs, morals and standards indicating an absolute rejection of conformity. In many ways nihilistic, followers tend also to reject capitalism, government and social norms of the mainstream cultures and relgions. Alternately pacifist and violent by nature, it is a seemingly contradictory philosophy focused on the present. Adherents tend to prioritize the moment- often at the expense of history, or future personal success. An individual identifying as "punk" is likely to experience life as a raging fire or die trying. Many have co-opted the punk aesthetic for its commercial or cultural capital, yet the core believer will reject both. It is defined by its lack of definition. Adherents will reject arguments of most requirements, belief structure or even the label "punk" itself, yet when viewed from an objective standpoint these seemingly ungainly values come together as a unique way of living.

    4. A small piece of kindling used for lighting slow-igniting substances.

    5. A small stub of a cigar. This meaning is derived from the oldest uses of the term.
    Terms derived from the word punk

    Punk rock, named in reference to the above term, is a largely musical movement that arose in the mid to late 1970s and reached its peak of popularity in the early 1980s. Etymology of the term is suspect, but it likely derives from the customers of the first venue for such music, CBGB's in the Bowery in New York City, who were alledgedly male prostitutes. The music was therefore 'rock for punks.'

    More recently, many variants on the punk sensibility have resulted in the word punk being combined with other terms - for example, "eco punk," meaning a person with punk attitudes who is dedicated to environmentalism or concerns about ecology.

    See also: punk fashion, cyberpunk

    Original meanings

    The original meaning of punk is combustible material such as rotten, mouldy faggots of firewood or wood with Polyporus fungus growing on it. Alternative names: spunk, punkwood, funky stuff, amadou. The punkwood is dried or charred and used in a flint and steel fire. It may be used as tinder or char. When put into an already blazing fire, especially if not completely dried, this kind of material may cause explosive "popping" or "fizzing" sounds (See also: fireworks).

    In Shakespearean slang punke is used as a word for a prostitute, interchangeable with the word "croshabell". For instance in "Merrie conceited Jests." by George Peele (undated but probably published in 1620) one of the jests is called "How George gulled a Punke, otherwise called a Croshabell."
    from Wikipedia: Punk

    There is your definition of punk, here is Punk rock.

    PUNK ROCK:

    Punk rock is the anti-establishment music movement of the period 1976-80, exemplified by The Ramones, the Sex Pistols, The Clash, and The ****ed. This term is also used to describe subsequent music scenes that share key characteristics with those first-generation "punks." The term is sometimes also applied to the fashions or the irreverent "do-it-yourself" attitude associated with this musical movement.

    Origins

    The term "punk rock" (from 'punk', meaning rotten, worthless, or snotty; also a prison slang term for a person who is sexually submissive) was originally used to describe the untutored guitar-and-vocals-based rock and roll of U.S. bands of the mid-1960s such as The Seeds and The Standells, who now are more often categorized as "garage rock."

    The term was first coined by rock critic Dave Marsh, who used it to describe the music of ? and the Mysterians in the May 1971, issue of Creem magazine. The term was adopted by many rock music journalists in the early 1970s. For example, in the liner notes of the 1972 anthology album Nuggets, critic and guitarist Lenny Kaye uses the term "punk-rock" to refer to the Sixties "garage rock" groups, as well as some of the darker and more primitive elements of '60s psychedelia. Shortly after the time of those notes, Lenny Kaye formed a band with avant garde poet Patti Smith. Smith's group, and her first LP released in 1975, directly inspired many of the mid-70s punk rockers, so this suggests a path by which the term migrated to the music we now know as punk.

    In addition to the inspiration of those "garage bands" of the sixties, the roots of punk rock also draw on the abrasive, dissonant style of The Velvet Underground, the sexually and politically confrontational Detroit bands The Stooges and MC5, the UK pub rock scene and, like friends MC5 political UK Underground bands such as Mick Farren and the Deviants, early New York underground music scenes and attitudes which culminated in the New York Dolls, and some British "glam rock" or "art rock" acts of the early seventies, such as David Bowie, Roxy Music, and Marc Bolan and T. Rex.

    The term "protopunk" is sometimes applied to these diverse performers who influenced what would later become punk rock.

    Culturally, the early punk rock movement was a direct reaction to the perceived pointlessness and over-indulgence of mainstream rock music as it had evolved in the early 1970s. Bands such as Jefferson Airplane which had survived the 1960s in some form were regarded as having lost their message of rebellion and their support for counterculture values. Eric Clapton's appearance in television beer ads in the mid-1970s was often taken as a prime example of how even the icons of rock had literally sold themselves to the system they once opposed. Consequently, most attitudes and aesthetics of the 1960s were rejected in a firm renouncing of what music and counterculture had become.

    It appeared that at least a significant subset of the youth or music culture was very ready for this repentance from the values of mainstream rock. From its appearance in London and New York, the punk rock culture spread rapidly. One aspect of the 1960s counterculture which was adopted by the punk rock movement was the empowerment of the individual rejecting what was being fed to listeners by the then-dominant recording industry. In the U.S., punk rock bands appeared literally overnight in numerous urban areas producing memorable, if not necessarily enduring sparks in the growing fire that was becoming the punk movement. Notable bands were produced by Los Angeles, such as X, Black Flag, and The Dils. San Francisco spawned the Dead Kennedys. Innumerable others appeared and disappeared as punk rock grew from highly independent cadres of individuals to a cultural movement with defined values, icons and aesthetics.

    In the mid-1970s, influential punk bands emerged separately in three different corners of the world: The Ramones in New York, The Saints in Australia, and the Sex Pistols, in London. In each case, these bands were operating within a small "scene" which included other bands as well as enthusiastic impresarios who operated small nightclubs that provided a showcase and meeting place for the emerging musicians (the 100 Club in London, CBGB's in New York, and The Masque in Hollywood are among the best know early punk clubs). In the UK, punk interacted with the Jamaican reggae & ska subcultures. The reggae influence in evident in the first releases by the Clash, for example, and by the end of the decade punk had spawned the 2 Tone ska revival movement, including bands such as The Specials, Madness and The Selecter.

    The United Kingdom record label Stiff Records released a host of Punk artists including Ian Dury and the Blockheads, Wreckless Eric, The Adverts, The ****ed, Department S, and 1960s Anarchists Mick Farren and the Pink Fairies (described as "My Favourite Old-Wave Band? by the Sex Pistols's John Lydon). Larry Wallis (of the Pink Fairies, Motorhead and Steve Took's Shagrat) became an in house Producer for Stiff. Like the hard-line elements of the UK Underground shocking the norms was essential and to that end Stiff produced T-Shirt and other items bearing the notorious slogan "If It Ain't Stiff It Ain't Worth a ****". Sums it up really! Interestingly, The ****ed toured with T Rex in 1977.
    Punk attitudes and fashion

    An important feature of punk rock was an evident desire to return to the concise and simple approach of early rock and roll. Punk rockers rejected what they saw as the pretension, commercialism and pomposity which had overtaken rock music in the 1970s, spawning superficial "disco" music and grandiose forms of heavy metal, progressive rock and "arena rock".
    Nevermind.png

    Punk rock emphasised simple musical structure and short songs, extolling a "DIY" ("do it yourself") ethic that insisted anyone could form a punk rock band (the early UK punk fanzine Sniffin' Glue once famously included drawings of three chord shapes, captioned, "this is a chord, this is another, this is a third. Now form a band"). Punk lyrics introduced a confrontational frankness of expression in matters both political and sexual, dealing with urban boredom and rising unemployment in the UK?e.g., the Sex Pistols' "God Save The Queen" and "Pretty Vacant"?or decidedly anti-romantic depictions of sex and love, such as the Dead Kennedys' "Too Drunk to ****" or the Sex Pistols' "Submission."

    The influence of the cultural critique and the strategies for revolutionary action offered by the European situationist movement of the 1950s and 60s is apparent in the vanguard of the British punk movement, particularly the Sex Pistols. This was a conscious direction taken by Pistols prime movers Malcolm McLaren and Vivienne Westwood, and is apparent in the artwork of the Situationist-affiliated Jamie Reid, who designed many of the band's graphics.

    The punk phenomenon expressed a whole-hearted rejection of prevailing values that extended beyond the qualities of its music. British punk fashion deliberately outraged propriety with the highly theatrical use of cosmetics and hairstyles--eye makeup might cover half the face, hair might stand in spikes or be cut into a "Mohawk" or other severe shape--while the clothing typically modified existing objects for artistic effect--pants and shirts were cut, torn, or wrapped with tape, safety pins were used as face-piercing jewelery, a black bin liner bag (garbage bag) might, and often did, become a dress, T-Shirt or skirt.

    Punk devotees created a thriving underground press. In the UK Mark Perry produced Sniffin' Glue In the United States magazines such as Maximum RocknRoll, Profane Existence and Flipside were leading a movement of fanzines. Every local "scene" had at least one primitively published magazine with news, gossip, and interviews with local or touring bands. The magazine Factsheet Five chronicled the thousands of underground publications in the 1980s and 1990s.

    The UK Punk magazine Sniffin' Glue reflected a change in drug taking habits. The hippies had smoked Cannabis which resulted in a relaxed mood. The punks were rebelling against the last decade' values and that included Cannabis. Punks wanted drugs which gave the user energy and the vapours from glue and other solvents gave an easily accessible heady rush of energy as did various pills. These had the side-effect of increasing aggression as well as energy and some such as Amphetamine-based based drugs which had the addded advantage of allowing users to stay awake for long periods and also increased a user's pain threshold. Some like Sid Vicious of the Sex Pistols worked their way onto more addictive narcotics such as Heroin which also numbed pain and allowed Vicious, for example, to cut himself extensively on stage as part of the stage act.

    Post-1970s punk
    In the 1980s a second wave of anti-establishment and "DIY" bands came into their own in the United States and the UK. MDC, Crass, Descendents, H?sker D?, Bad Brains, Vice Squad, X, The Replacements Picture Frame Seduction, The Exploited, Minor Threat, JFA, The Dicks, Inner City Unit and many others had little impact on the music industry charts, but nonetheless had a huge effect on popular culture. The period from approximately 1980 to 1986 is considered the peak of hardcore punk.

    A thriving Punk Rock subculture can still be found in many cities. Krakow and Jarocin in Poland are renowned among punks today as having two of the most thriving and colourful street punk cultures. Punk rock underwent a commercial renaissance in the 1990s with bands like Rancid, Green Day, and The Offspring. Additionally, bands such as My Chemical Romance, The Used and Taking Back Sunday have continued that commercial renaissance in the form of Emo music. Many people consider bands such as Taking Back Sunday and similar to be pop-punk, and completely removed from emo, which is an offshoot of hardcore punk.

    Source: Wikipedia: Punk Rock

    There you are, punk really has died. I have put a bold around "Post Punk" meaning, after Punk. Sorry about the thing being so long...
    Now I look stupid for posting the Exploited as punk when they also came after the movent, my bad....


    Okay you are right, they list Green Day as a new punk movement.
     
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    jasonresno said:
    Give me 5 good reason why Green Day isn't punk, and I'll give you 5 good reasons why you are dead wrong.

    And DeathByAlice, I love how you quote the same post over and over again. that is spam.

    Instead of just posting random bands, also explain to me what mekes these guys more punk than Green Day?

    Doom.
    Toxic Narcotic.
    Conflict (started late 80's i think).
    Confused (Jap-core).
    Sephalic Carnage

    Listen to them.

    And WikiPedia isn't always right--they said It Dies Today is Swedish-Metalcore, and they're from Buffalo new york--not one of them is Swedish or Scandinavian.
     

    deathbyalice

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    GenoMew said:
    Listen to them.

    And WikiPedia isn't always right--they said It Dies Today is Swedish-Metalcore, and they're from Buffalo new york--not one of them is Swedish or Scandinavian.
    I guess they would count as Post-Punk though. I still consider them alternative.
     

    jasonresno

    [fight through it]
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    GenoMew said:
    Listen to them.

    And WikiPedia isn't always right--they said It Dies Today is Swedish-Metalcore, and they're from Buffalo new york--not one of them is Swedish or Scandinavian.

    That doesn't answer my question, not one bit. Telling me to "listen to a band" does not prove one thing or another. I want straight facts, black and white, how they are punk over greenday etc. Tell me? Or can you? ;)

    And deathbyalice, according to your definitions..how is greenday not punk.

    I'm a baseball analyst at another forum, and this type of defense wouldn't have enough pulp to bear fruit...so cmon, black and white facts on why/why not they are punk :)
     

    Thomas

    HAIL HYDRA!
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    I belive the term used was "Post-1970s punk" which would mean punk AFTER the 1970's not just after punk...so that would mean they ARE punk but as said in the definition they are a new renassiance of punk established in the 1990's. Also they use the band as an example...
    Punk rock underwent a commercial renaissance in the 1990s with bands like Rancid, Green Day, and The Offspring.
     

    jasonresno

    [fight through it]
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    See? They even cited Green Day as a punk band, and wasn't Sweet Children (greendays first name) formed in the 80's?

    Heh, please guys support your sluggish statements with facts. :)
     
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