Gambling does not equal getting a health problem.
It's an analogy.
Any health problem can occur for a number of reasons, and people 90% of the time aren't "knowingly" making decisions that give them a health problem.
Right, and we're talking about the 10% of the time that they are right now. We're not talking about the other 90% of the time. Or at least I wasn't, and you're presently responding to my statements.
What? Are you seriously trying to suggest that people willingly would put their own lives in danger just because they know any injuries/problems that they get from it would be covered?
You really failed to grasp what I was saying there, and I tried to make it as obvious as possible. No, people aren't going to see that risky behavior is covered and immediately go out and fly a motorcycle through a flaming hoop over a cliff. What will happen, though, is that people will unconsciously (and correctly) realize that risk-taking behavior isn't as big of a deal when it's covered by insurance. They'll do riskier things because they wanted to do those things originally but they didn't because they understood the consequences. When you lessen or eliminate the consequences, they end up deciding the other way in a lot of cases. And since people make these kinds of decisions hundreds of times a day and there are 300 million people in the US, even something that creates a relatively small trend can end up putting a great deal more burden on the system. That's what I'm getting at.
But everyone takes from it. There are very few people in this country who don't use the healthcare system at some point in their life. And, again, as I've said several times already, these people aren't just covering "self-inflicted injuries" but all health problems, all the time. That's the point.
People tend to pay into the system as much or more than what they take from it. If they didn't, it wouldn't work. The problem is some people take more than others, and people who live unhealthy or risky lifestyles take disproportionately more from the system as a result of that, since they tend to have all the same issues the rest of us have
plus a great deal more due to their lifestyle choices. That's the point
I'm making.
Stop. If you literally think someone deserves to die from a treatable injury just because they can't afford to pay for treatment, then that's really bad.
Don't try to put words in my mouth by removing context. I
immediately followed that up by saying that the greater evil is for the system to stop working and for more people to die or suffer as a result. That statement was made
within that context. No, people don't
deserve to suffer or die for self-inflicted issues (I never said that to begin with), what I said was that self-inflicted problems are, by definition, their fault; typically, if you do something dumb, you're going to expect consequences. Our systems aren't perfect and they can't and shouldn't try to save everyone; the system isn't designed to do that and it won't work if it tries to. You typically can't save people from themselves.
How are you agreeing with me and disagreeing with me at the same time?
Because this is a multi-faceted issue and I can agree with one assumption and come to a different conclusion as a result.
But the problem isn't that people are being forced to buy into it
There are a lot of problems with the system. I think that being forced into buying insurance is a problem because I think there are viable alternatives to insurance for many people (like saving money effectively) and I think it's authoritarian to compel someone to buy redundant services.
it's people who think that others don't deserve the same level of healthcare as them because they can't afford it.
I'm not really sure what you mean by the "same level of healthcare." I think a system where everyone can have access to basic coverage for unforseen health issues is good and is the right way to do things. I can't really speak on anything past that without knowing more about what you meant.
Every person is going to need healthcare at some point in their lives, and it's not ethical to pick-and-choose which people are deserving of healthcare based on their income.
Right, which is why I think we shouldn't do that, at least not with respect to basic medical coverage. I don't think self-inflicted problems should be included in the scope of that, though.
Here's some info about what is covered by most health insurances. If you'll notice, the essential services provided here would definitively cover what I believe you would call "self-inflicted injuries."
They shouldn't.
Except... not really. That kind of medical system opens itself up to opportunities for insurance companies to limit their coverage in an effort to save money.
That doesn't make it the wrong way to do things, it just means we need proper oversight and review to ensure the system isn't abused, something which we
already need for the system to work.
If I'm involved in a car crash and my leg is broken, and my insurance provider decides not to cover any necessary surgery and rehabilitation I need to fix it because I was involved in a car crash and they deem it as "self-inflicted," I'm going to get royally screwed over with medical bills that I have no choice but to pay because I need my leg.
I wouldn't consider driving a car to be unreasonably risky behavior; almost everyone drives a car. Maybe if it is determined that the driver was unnecessarily risky in the way he was driving, then it should be excluded, but not in the typical case.
If I suddenly developed Type 2 diabetes without realizing that I have until I start passing out, and my insurance decided not to cover my preventative treatments because they believe it was self-inflicted, I'm going to be footing $400 to $500 a month just to pay for insulin to not pass out.
If the condition was a result of poor dietary habits, I think it's reasonable to expect to have to pay out of pocket. The problem in this case is the cost being prohibitively expensive, and that touches on other issues. Insulin shouldn't cost $400-$500 a month, there's no
reason for it to cost that much and there are many areas of the world where it doesn't. This is a case of corporate abuse and IMO should be investigated.
You mentioned privilege earlier, this actually ties in here, since I'm pre-diabetic and this has a very high likelihood of affecting me. And if it does, it's
my fault; I've had very poor dietary choices for the past few decades and it's part of why I'm trying to improve my diet right now.
A healthcare system that discriminately chooses who gets covered is not a fair healthcare system.
The healthcare system should treat people the same. People who make poor choices shouldn't be covered, regardless of who they are. That's fair.
And as I've said, not every "self-inflicted" problem is from negligence. People can not know things and be undereducated about health problems (it's not like health education in America is that great anyway).
I 100% agree that we need to improve health education here. That should be another one of our priorities. The changes I support shouldn't be made in a vacuum; there should be other things that happen at the same time, and this is one of them.
You have enough privilege to assume that everyone has the ability to save money.
I don't, I know that's impossible for some people because I
know people it's impossible for. What I mean is that it is a viable option for a lot of people and that many of those people for which it
is an option simply choose not to. This is another thing I think education could improve: proper spending habits and budgeting, personal economics.
For many people, they're simply unable to do that because they're spending so much on their mandatory life expenses that saving money is out of the question.
I completely understand there are people like that because I know people like that. Like I said, I do support basic coverage for everyone. However, if I was in a situation where I was barely making enough to get by, you better believe I would be even more cautious about my life choices than I am right now.
The reason I said it is privileged is because it's people with your attitude that helped create the financial problems that come out of healthcare. People have been protesting paying into the system for the same reason for a long time, and it creates problems for people who actually need to take the healthcare but don't have the resources they need because of bad financial situations that often times are out of their control.
I believe that enough people would pay into the system without the individual mandate for it to still work.
"It's why I don't go doing stupid things and it's why I save up my own money in case something does happen to me rather than spending all of it on crap I don't need." That is a statement loaded with assumptions about the type of people who have to depend on publically-funded healthcare, and that type of attitude is one that stems from the privilege of not knowing the situation of the people you are saying should be perfectly able to pay for their own healthcare.
What I was getting at with that is that people shouldn't be so cavalier with their own health and finance and that if they choose to be, they should expect that bad things may happen as a result. Like I said, I know not everyone can save, but
most people are capable of avoiding especially risky behavior, making adequate dietary choices, and at least creating a budget.
I already explained above that even situations like these can be brought on by a million different causes and are usually not the fault of the person who is afflicted with them. Life is unpredictable and people get hurt, but if they can't afford healthcare, we shouldn't be leaving them to suffer. No one deserves to go through ridiculous financial hardships just because some people are stingy with their money.
I get that, and it sucks, but people aren't perfect and there are a lot of factors that play into this. With the state of affairs as they are, we can't save everyone and we need to make certain compromises in order for our systems to function smoothly. It would be wonderful if we could help everyone and that should be something we work toward, but the current reality of the situation makes that impossible.