Seeking Advice on Bulky-Attacker Team Build

[jokerslayer]

Hi everyone,

Just got into competitive team building, and would really appreciate any advice on my team, Thanks!
I also need help on deciding 2 more special based members for the team.

Mindset of team: Bulky! Tanky! (with lots of resistance) + Hitting like a truck!

-----------------------------------
UPDATED (again... had to get rid of rest/sleep talk):

Alright, was just trying this team with quite some success:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-136154182
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-136263995
This video pretty much showed the weakness in my team. Got nothing to counter Rotom Wash

Ferrothorn (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SDef
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock
- Power Whip
- Toxic

*Lead to set up traps

Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang

*DD Sweeper, Ice Fang for Garchomp, Venusaur & other Dragons

Aggron-Mega (M) @ Aggronite
Ability: Filter
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Power-Up Punch
- Heavy Slam

*Main Tank

Rhyperior (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 138 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Megahorn
- Rock Blast

*Usual switch-in for Fire opponents against my Ferrothorn, Sub-Tank

Garchomp (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

*Monster Sweeper

Noivern (M) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 6 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
- U-turn

*Revenge Killer, Star of the team, U-Turn for retreat

-----------------------------------

I realized that my biggest issue was dealing with Mega Venusaurs, as I don't have any super effective physical attacks against him (except for Gyarados' Ice Fang, but would need a DD in order to hurt it, and would be OHKOed by solar beam)

Noivern was pretty amazing as a Revenge Killer until I met Choice Scarf Garchomp, and got blasted off the roof. Would still prefer over Dragonite for its speed I think.


Any help is greatly welcomed!

 

[PlatinumDude]

Bounce or Stone Edge is a better coverage option than Ice Fang on regular Gyarados. Mega Gyarados mainly uses Ice Fang for 2HKOing non-specially defensive Mega Venusaur via Mold Breaker.

Metagross isn't as good as it used to be. Bulky attacking is better done by Aegislash, who hits harder in Blade forme:
-Shadow Ball
-Shadow Sneak/Sacred Sword
-Iron Head/Sacred Sword/Pursuit
-King's Shield
Nature: Quiet
EVs: 244 HP/12 Def/252 SAtk
Item: Leftovers/Spooky Plate/Spell Tag/Air Balloon

or
-Substitute
-Toxic
-Shadow Ball
-King's Shield
Nature: Modest
EVs: 244 HP/12 Def/252 SAtk
Item: Leftovers

or
-Shadow Ball
-Shadow Sneak
-Flash Cannon/Sacred Sword
-Pursuit/Sacred Sword
Nature: Hasty/Naive
EVs: 4 Atk/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb

or
-Swords Dance
-Shadow Sneak
-Shadow Claw/Iron Head
-Sacred Sword/Head Smash
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SDef/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb

Mega Aggron should use Relaxed with 252 HP/16 Def/240 SDef to give it a bit more defense while retaining the ability to take weak to moderately powered special hits. Earthquake and Ice Punch would be preferred over Dragon Tail as coverage for Aegislash, Gliscor, Landorus, Garchomp and Dragonite, respectively, but Dragon Tail is still cool for phazing out setup attackers and working well with Stealth Rock.

Other special attackers to consider besides Alakazam are Greninja and Wash Rotom. Other defensive Pokemon include Zapdos, Togekiss, Sylveon and Clefable:

Alakazam:
-Psyshock
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast
-Hidden Power (Ice)/Dazzling Gleam/Thunder Wave
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard

Greninja:
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Extrasensory
-Dark Pulse/Hidden Power (Fire/Grass)/Grass Knot/Spikes
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SAtk/4 SDef/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb/Focus Sash
Ability: Protean

Wash Rotom:
-Volt Switch
-Hydro Pump
-Will-o-Wisp
-Pain Split/Rest
Nature: Bold
EVs: 248 HP/216 Def/44 Spe
Item: Leftovers/Chesto Berry

or
-Volt Switch
-Hydro Pump
-Thunderbolt/Will-o-Wisp
-Trick
Nature: Timid/Modest
EVs: 4 Def/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Choice Scarf

Zapdos:
-Thunderbolt
-Defog
-Heat Wave/Toxic/U-turn
-Roost
Nature: Bold
EVs: 248 HP/168 Def/68 SAtk/20 Spe
Item: Leftovers

Sylveon:
-Wish
-Protect
-Hyper Voice
-Heal Bell/Calm Mind
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/216 Def/40 SDef
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate

or
-Hyper Voice
-Psyshock
-Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power (Ground/Fire)/Baton Pass
Nature: Modest
EVs: 244 HP/252 SAtk/12 Spe
Item: Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate

Clefable:
-Calm Mind
-Moonblast
-Stored Power/Flamethrower
-Soft-Boiled
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SAtk
Item: Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard

or
-Wish
-Protect
-Moonblast
-Heal Bell/Aromatherapy/Thunder Wave
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Unaware/Magic Guard

or
-Stealth Rock
-Moonblast
-Flamethrower
-Soft-Boiled
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard

or
-Moonblast
-Fire Blast
-Thunder Wave
-Soft-Boiled
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SAtk
Item: Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard

 

[jokerslayer]

Thanks for the detailed suggestions!

I didn't plan on putting a Mega Stone on Gyarados, seeing as Aggron will be mega evolving anyways.

Is Metagross still a solid member nonetheless? I'm a bit worried about using Aegislash (never used it before) as its attack form is pretty fragile.

 

[PlatinumDude]

Thanks for the detailed suggestions!

I didn't plan on putting a Mega Stone on Gyarados, seeing as Aggron will be mega evolving anyways.

Is Metagross still a solid member nonetheless? I'm a bit worried about using Aegislash (never used it before) as its attack form is pretty fragile.

No. It got nerfed over the coming generations (Meteor Mash being weakened and gaining weaknesses to Dark and Ghost for instance).

 

[zygardian harbinger]

Something I've noticed is that this team really needs a counter to Fighting-type Pokemon, and to a certain extent, Fire-type Pokemon.

 

[Magistrum]

Thanks for the detailed suggestions!

I didn't plan on putting a Mega Stone on Gyarados, seeing as Aggron will be mega evolving anyways.

Is Metagross still a solid member nonetheless? I'm a bit worried about using Aegislash (never used it before) as its attack form is pretty fragile.

Nope, Platinumdude is explaining how Ice Fang is a worse move to run on a regular Gyarados. M.Gyara basically runs them.

TBH I agree that Metagross and even Mega Aggron are outclassed by Aegislash in a bulky offense team. And honestly, the attack form's frailty is offset by the fact that King's Shield offers a -2 to a physical attacker. It's basically knowing who to switch in on when using Aegislash.

Also, NEVER EVER put Head Smash on Aegislash. It's an idiotic idea to put a recoil move on a pokemon with low HP and Speed. You're better off using the SubTox set (rarely seen but it really works) or the Crumbler set (KS/Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak/Iron Head or Sacred Sword).

And since you opt for bulky offense, pokemon to consider would be Mega Venusaur, Kyurem-B, Landorus-T, Conkeldurr, as well as defoggers such as Latias, Skarmory or Mandibuzz.

Hope that helps!

 

[jokerslayer]

Nope, Platinumdude is explaining how Ice Fang is a worse move to run on a regular Gyarados. M.Gyara basically runs them.

TBH I agree that Metagross and even Mega Aggron are outclassed by Aegislash in a bulky offense team. And honestly, the attack form's frailty is offset by the fact that King's Shield offers a -2 to a physical attacker. It's basically knowing who to switch in on when using Aegislash.

Also, NEVER EVER put Head Smash on Aegislash. It's an idiotic idea to put a recoil move on a pokemon with low HP and Speed. You're better off using the SubTox set (rarely seen but it really works) or the Crumbler set (KS/Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak/Iron Head or Sacred Sword).

And since you opt for bulky offense, pokemon to consider would be Mega Venusaur, Kyurem-B, Landorus-T, Conkeldurr, as well as defoggers such as Latias, Skarmory or Mandibuzz.

Hope that helps!

Thanks for the insight!
Any advice on how to deal with Dragon types? aka Garchomp, Dragonite
That's primarily the initial reason why I kept Gyarados's Ice Fang.

 

[gimmepie]

The best ways of dealing with dragon types are Clefable, Sylveon, Azumarill, Latios, Noivern, Mega-Gardevoir and Florges I'd say.

Clefable is bulky so maybe a bulky set with Moonblast/Wish/Protect/Toxic

Sylveon is pretty much the same, but calm mind sets can also be effective.

There are a lot of options for Azumarill but you'll either want Assault Vest or Belly Drum/Sitrus Berry - either one with huge power as the ability. Play Rough murders all dragons basically.

Latios outspeeds most of the other dragons I'd say and hits hard with STAB Draco Meteor and Psyshock.

Noivern is able to outspeed basically anything really but it is very fragile so don't switch it in on anything. Noivern is best used with 252 Sp. Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP and an expert belt if you ask me. A pretty standard moveset would be Draco Meteor, Hurricane, Dark Pulse and Boomburst. It's very fragile with shaky accuracy but it hits extremely hard and fast.

Mega-Gardevoir is useful as a check for dragons and fighting types and it also takes neutral damage from a lot of types that usually threaten psychic pokemon. I'd run it with Hyper Voice since it becomes pretty deadly thanks to the pixilate ability.

Florges is great with the massive Sp. Def it has. Give it something along the lines of 252 HP / 252 Sp. Def / 4 Sp. Atk with leftovers and the moves Calm Mind, Psychic, Moon Blast and HP Fire. A wish/protect/toxic/moonblast set could also be viable but it does lack the firepower of the one I first gave you.

 

[jokerslayer]

The best ways of dealing with dragon types are Clefable, Sylveon, Azumarill, Latios, Noivern, Mega-Gardevoir and Florges I'd say.

Clefable is bulky so maybe a bulky set with Moonblast/Wish/Protect/Toxic

Sylveon is pretty much the same, but calm mind sets can also be effective.

There are a lot of options for Azumarill but you'll either want Assault Vest or Belly Drum/Sitrus Berry - either one with huge power as the ability. Play Rough murders all dragons basically.

Latios outspeeds most of the other dragons I'd say and hits hard with STAB Draco Meteor and Psyshock.

Noivern is able to outspeed basically anything really but it is very fragile so don't switch it in on anything. Noivern is best used with 252 Sp. Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP and an expert belt if you ask me. A pretty standard moveset would be Draco Meteor, Hurricane, Dark Pulse and Boomburst. It's very fragile with shaky accuracy but it hits extremely hard and fast.

Mega-Gardevoir is useful as a check for dragons and fighting types and it also takes neutral damage from a lot of types that usually threaten psychic pokemon. I'd run it with Hyper Voice since it becomes pretty deadly thanks to the pixilate ability.

Florges is great with the massive Sp. Def it has. Give it something along the lines of 252 HP / 252 Sp. Def / 4 Sp. Atk with leftovers and the moves Calm Mind, Psychic, Moon Blast and HP Fire. A wish/protect/toxic/moonblast set could also be viable but it does lack the firepower of the one I first gave you.

I've been trying to avoid having glass cannons in a bulky team but Noivern does seem like a welcoming addition especially since my team is generally slow and weak against fighting/fire.

On a side note, I was thinking of adding Mega Venusaur to the party as a special tank, but since Aggron's already taken the mega stone slot, I'm a bit skeptical.

 

[PlatinumDude]

The best ways of dealing with dragon types are Clefable, Sylveon, Azumarill, Latios, Noivern, Mega-Gardevoir and Florges I'd say.

Clefable is bulky so maybe a bulky set with Moonblast/Wish/Protect/Toxic

Sylveon is pretty much the same, but calm mind sets can also be effective.

There are a lot of options for Azumarill but you'll either want Assault Vest or Belly Drum/Sitrus Berry - either one with huge power as the ability. Play Rough murders all dragons basically.

Latios outspeeds most of the other dragons I'd say and hits hard with STAB Draco Meteor and Psyshock.

Noivern is able to outspeed basically anything really but it is very fragile so don't switch it in on anything. Noivern is best used with 252 Sp. Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP and an expert belt if you ask me. A pretty standard moveset would be Draco Meteor, Hurricane, Dark Pulse and Boomburst. It's very fragile with shaky accuracy but it hits extremely hard and fast.

Mega-Gardevoir is useful as a check for dragons and fighting types and it also takes neutral damage from a lot of types that usually threaten psychic pokemon. I'd run it with Hyper Voice since it becomes pretty deadly thanks to the pixilate ability.

Florges is great with the massive Sp. Def it has. Give it something along the lines of 252 HP / 252 Sp. Def / 4 Sp. Atk with leftovers and the moves Calm Mind, Psychic, Moon Blast and HP Fire. A wish/protect/toxic/moonblast set could also be viable but it does lack the firepower of the one I first gave you.

Florges is a no-go in standard teams because Clefable and Sylveon pull off its roles better, plus more. Florges' abilities are also useless in single battles.

I've been trying to avoid having glass cannons in a bulky team but Noivern does seem like a welcoming addition especially since my team is generally slow and weak against fighting/fire.

On a side note, I was thinking of adding Mega Venusaur to the party as a special tank, but since Aggron's already taken the mega stone slot, I'm a bit skeptical.

Dragonite is a better option than Noivern because it can achieve Lightning Bruiser status with Dragon Dance and/or Extreme Speed. Noivern also isn't that strong compared to OU Dragons like Charizard X and the aforementioned Dragonite:
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage/Dragon Claw
-Earthquake
-Extreme Speed
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Item: Lum Berry
Ability: Multiscale

or
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Extreme Speed
-Fire Punch/Dragon Claw
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Item: Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale

or
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake
-Extreme Speed
-Roost
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 216 HP/64 Atk/228 SDef
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale

 

[gimmepie]

@Platinum - I would argue that Florges is extremely under-rated. It's very bulky as it is with that spread and once it lets off a calm mind it deals seriously heavy damage and takes almost no damage from most special attacks. You are right that its lack of a useful ability is a problem, but I'd suggest the damage it deals and the useful moves/coverage it can possess more than make up for it.

One of my best showdown teams makes use of Florges.

 

[PlatinumDude]

@Platinum - I would argue that Florges is extremely under-rated. It's very bulky as it is with that spread and once it lets off a calm mind it deals seriously heavy damage and takes almost no damage from most special attacks. You are right that its lack of a useful ability is a problem, but I'd suggest the damage it deals and the useful moves/coverage it can possess more than make up for it.

One of my best showdown teams makes use of Florges.

I still stand by my point that Florges is outclassed by Sylveon and Clefable:
-Florges' coverage options are limited. Its only viable offensive moves aside from Hidden Power are Psychic and Energy Ball. This leaves it heavily walled by Steels:
-Offensive Sylveon can opt for Shadow Ball to at least hit Steels neutrally, making it less reliant on Hidden Power for Steels (though it's still appreciated for dealing with Skarmory, Scizor, Ferrothorn, etc).
-Clefable doesn't even need Hidden Power for coverage at all; it has access to Flamethrower and Fire Blast for Steels.
-Florges and Sylveon have similar special bulk. While Florges' Special Defense is higher, Sylveon's HP is higher. This makes Sylveon more optimal as a Wish Passer; Clefable also passes bigger Wishes. Sylveon also has more offensive presence in the form of Pixilated Hyper Voices:

Similarity calcs (defensive):
Florges: 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 121-144 (33.6 - 40%) -- 30% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 74.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This difference isn't even noticeable.

Offensive calcs:
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 165-195 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 135-160 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

This shows that Sylveon has more offensive presence.

In the end, Sylveon > Florges in OU any day of the week.

 

[Zeffy]

I've had much success with Florges than Sylveon in defensive teams. Offensive teams needing a specially defensive Fairy should almost always consider Sylveon.

 

[jokerslayer]

I still stand by my point that Florges is outclassed by Sylveon and Clefable:
-Florges' coverage options are limited. Its only viable offensive moves aside from Hidden Power are Psychic and Energy Ball. This leaves it heavily walled by Steels:
-Offensive Sylveon can opt for Shadow Ball to at least hit Steels neutrally, making it less reliant on Hidden Power for Steels (though it's still appreciated for dealing with Skarmory, Scizor, Ferrothorn, etc).
-Clefable doesn't even need Hidden Power for coverage at all; it has access to Flamethrower and Fire Blast for Steels.
-Florges and Sylveon have similar special bulk. While Florges' Special Defense is higher, Sylveon's HP is higher. This makes Sylveon more optimal as a Wish Passer; Clefable also passes bigger Wishes. Sylveon also has more offensive presence in the form of Pixilated Hyper Voices:

Similarity calcs (defensive):
Florges: 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 121-144 (33.6 - 40%) -- 30% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 74.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This difference isn't even noticeable.

Offensive calcs:
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 165-195 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 135-160 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

This shows that Sylveon has more offensive presence.

In the end, Sylveon > Florges in OU any day of the week.

My god how do you do such detailed comparisons so easily? I cannot for the life of me figure out anything remotely close to what you did lol

 

[MoxieInfinite]

My god how do you do such detailed comparisons so easily? I cannot for the life of me figure out anything remotely close to what you did lol

Its called calculators. Go to showdown and type /calc in the chat. Youre welcome.

 

[jokerslayer]

Its called calculators. Go to showdown and type /calc in the chat. Youre welcome.

Had no idea we have such a thing, I'm so noob lol
Thanks

 

[jokerslayer]

Updated post with new line-up and two showndown videos.
My team really suffers from not having enough fire attacks and against bulky pure water types like Milotic (I had nothing to counter!)

 

[PlatinumDude]

Updated post with new line-up and two showndown videos.
My team really suffers from not having enough fire attacks and against bulky pure water types like Milotic (I had nothing to counter!)

Ferrothorn counters nearly every Water Pokemon well enough. It doesn't need Toxic, as Leech Seed already provides residual damage.

Milotic is irrelevant in OU because it's outclassed by other bulky Waters there.

As I mentioned earlier, get rid of Gyarados' Ice Fang. Mega Gyarados makes better use of it because of Mold Breaker; it 2HKOs non-physically defensive Mega Venusaur and OHKOs Multiscale Dragonite.

Rhyperior's only purpose is to serve as a check/counter to Talonflame. It doesn't make a good Assault Vest user because of its common weaknesses to Water and Grass, which tend to be Special moves. Conkeldurr is the better Assault Vest user to use:
-Drain Punch
-Mach Punch
-Knock Off
-Ice Punch/Stone Edge
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk/236 SDef/20 Spe
Item: Assault Vest
Ability: Guts

Aggron should only play a defensive role on the team, but you already have Ferrothorn as a defensive Steel. I'd ditch it for Lati@s (Latias or Latios), as they're stronger than Noivern (more on that later) and provides Defog support for Gyarados:

Latias:
-Draco Meteor
-Psyshock/Thunderbolt
-Defog
-Healing Wish
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SAtk/4 SDef/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb

Latios:
-Draco Meteor
-Psyshock
-Thunderbolt/Hidden Power (Fighting)/Earthquake
-Defog
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb

Noivern has to go. It's outclassed by Lati@s, as well as Charizard X, Garchomp and Dragonite. It also shares an unwanted 4x Ice weakness with Garchomp. As a backup speedy special attacker, look no further than Greninja. See my first post on this thread for its move set. Or you can use Charizard Y, Mega Manectric or Mega Gardevoir, as I suggested you remove Aggron from the team:

Charizard Y:
-Fire Blast
-Solar Beam
-Focus Blast
-Roost/Dragon Pulse
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 Def/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Charizardite Y

Manectric:
-Thunderbolt
-Volt Switch
-Overheat/Flamethrower
-Hidden Power (Ice)
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 Def/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Manectite
Ability: Lightning Rod

Gardevoir:
-Psyshock
-Hyper Voice
-Focus Blast
-Shadow Ball/Taunt/Will-o-Wisp
Nature: Timid
EVs: 24 Def/232 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace

or
-Calm Mind
-Psyshock
-Hyper Voice
-Focus Blast/Shadow Ball/Taunt
Nature: Timid
EVs: 24 Def/232 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace