Should GF cater to competitive players?

[BettyNewbie]

This has been brought up in many places, but it hasn't really gotten its own thread.

With the most recent Generation, it has become plainly obvious that GF has started paying more attention to the large and vocal competitive community. Most of the biggest changes that were made in XY have far more use to competitive players than casual ones, such as Super Training, Horde Battles (also make getting EVs easier), the many breeding changes (females can pass Egg Moves, Destiny Knot passes 5 IVs, etc.), the Defog buff (hazards like Stealth Rock are rarely seen in-game, but are extremely common in competitive), Legendaries and Babies being guaranteed at have, at least, 3 perfect IVs, and so on. Even Mega Evolutions (can be cumbersome to use in-game and many stones aren't available until the postgame) and Fairies (Dragon was far more broken in competitive than in story mode) arguably fall under this category. For better or worse, competitive battlers/Smogonites/etc. make up a significant portion of Pokémon's fanbase nowadays, so GF would be stupid to ignore them.

However, this increased focus on competitive seems to have come at the expense of story mode. While BW/2 had a deep, involved story full of characters you could care about, XY's is shallow and clichéd and full of characters that are basically cardboard cut-outs, hard to care about, easy to forget. Making it even worse is the new and improved Exp. Share, which while convenient, only makes an easy game even easier to blast through.

And, then there's the postgame... Or, I should say, lack of it. Outside of a quick Looker sidequest, there really isn't anything to do but start breeding/EV-ing up a "perfect" team to take on the Battle Maison or multiplayer, aka. competitive battling. Perfect for people who only see the story as an obstacle keeping them from the "metagame," but for the rest of us? Not so much.

While the competitive pandering is less obvious in ORAS due to them being remakes, it's also still there. In the original games, Wally was this weak, sickly boy who became stronger through the love of his Pokémon, always sticking by that very first Ralts he ever caught. He's a bit more developed in the remakes, but not necessarily for the better. After a certain point, he starts taking on the Gyms, and his dialog gradually becomes less gentle and more forceful, leading up to his final appearance at the Battle Maison with a team ripped straight from Smogon. Even worse, his dialog strongly implies that ditched his entire old team for a new "perfect" one, including his Gallade:

"I knew my team makeup was still off. Then...I guess I need to take this guy out. No, if I do that, I'll be wide open for... Hmm... Then if I replace this move here... Yeah... Yeah, that should do it!"

"Hah...hah... Maybe I need to start again from scratch. But you performed as well as I'd expect, <player>! You even beat the best team I could put together!"
​

Also at the Battle Resort is a man who tells you this: "It's one thing to enjoy leisurely battles, but real battles can be a severe trial. Truly strong Trainers sometimes must be prepared to choose Pokémon that can win rather than their favorite Pokémon." As if that wasn't blatant enough, the man's daughter even owns a Garchomp, a Pokémon that, let's face it, most people only use because it's good in battle.

And, while the original RSE didn't exactly have much of a postgame beyond battle facilities/multiplayer, ORAS do little to improve on that. Aside from the Delta Episode, there's literally nothing else to do. Unlike the previous two remakes, ORAS didn't even add new areas to explore.

While there's nothing inherently wrong with GF paying more attention to the competitive community, I strongly dislike how it seems to be coming at the expense of story mode and casual players, in general. XY and ORAS are nice looking games, but what do they really offer for people who have zero interest in competitive battling? ORAS have nostalgia, I guess, but otherwise?

Competitive battling really is a different game from the main story, one that the Pokémon games were never really intended to be in the first place. (Otherwise, why would things like IVs and EVs be so hidden and so difficult to perfect without hacking?) Competitive requires completely different strategies and playstyles from story mode, and its entire existence runs counter to the "use your favorites" and "love your Pokémon" message that the games have been promoting since Day One:

"Blue! I'm disappointed! I came when I heard you beat the Elite Four! But, when I got here, you had already lost! Blue! Do you understand why you lost? You have forgotten to treat your Pokémon with trust and love! Without them, you will never become a champ again!"-- Prof. Oak, RBY.

"…I don't understand… Is what that Lance guy said true? That I don't treat Pokémon properly? Love… Trust… Are they really what I lack? Are they keeping me from winning? I… I just don't understand."-- Silver, GSC.

"Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites. I like your style. You understand what's important. Go on — — the Champion is waiting."-- Karen, GSC.

"The feelings you have for your Pokémon… And the Pokémon that responded to those feelings with all their might… They came together as one, and created an even greater power. And thus, you were able to grasp victory today!"-- Steven, RS.
​

Since competitive players really are playing a different game, why not actually give them one? If GF really wanted to throw the "metagame" a bone, why not just make a new battle simulator for competitive players instead of trying to force the main games to be something that they're not? It could be similar to the Stadium games, but with the underpowered rentals jettisoned in favor of a Pokémon generator (thus, eliminating the need to breed and EV up a team). That way, the competitive crowd can get the game they want, while casuals can continue to have the main games. This is just my two cents, though.

What do you think?

 

[Nah]

Well....even if a game was never intended to be a competitive thing by the developers, people will always turn it into a competitive thing if they can. That's how humans are.

I don't think that the reason for X/Y's story being ass though is Game Freak catering to competitive, but rather because of fan backlash over the story of Gen V. Gen V was, I think, a rather divisive generation. Everyone seems to either love it or hate it. It also seems that more people dislike it than like it. And I think that part of it had to do with the story-driveness of it. So Game Freak took note of that and decided to not focus on the story for X/Y cuz they were afraid of fans getting pissy over the story again.

Ironically, some competitive battlers are actually mad at Game Freak for the things they've done to the competitive scene, mainly the power creep and Megas. One could also argue that Game Freak only cares about the doubles metagame and not the singles metagame, despite the latter still being the more popular format.

But what I really think is the issue is Game Freak's inability to be consistent with things between games. The Day/Night system was in G/S/C and R/S/E, but not in Fr/Lg, only to return in Gen 4. Special move tutors existed in Platinum and Black2/White2, but not in Black/White or X/Y. The Battle Frontier and trainer customization was missing from ORAS. Gym Leader and Elite 4 rematches (with beefed up parties) have been inconsistent throughout the whole series. And a bunch of other things.

I really don't understand why they can't be consistent with the features. I don't see why they can't cater to both competitive AND casual players. That would be the better business strategy imo. But I suppose that's difficult to do when they make these under time constraints these days.....which is why they need to stop doing yearly releases.

 

[BettyNewbie]

I don't think that the reason for X/Y's story being ass though is Game Freak catering to competitive, but rather because of fan backlash over the story of Gen V. Gen V was, I think, a rather divisive generation. Everyone seems to either love it or hate it. It also seems that more people dislike it than like it. And I think that part of it had to do with the story-driveness of it. So Game Freak took note of that and decided to not focus on the story for X/Y cuz they were afraid of fans getting pissy over the story again.

And, most of those people who were complaining about Gen 5's story were (surprise) competitive players who saw the story as just an obstacle to button mash through. No amount of depth and characterization will ever make those fans care about a Pokémon story, so GF decided to not even bother in XY.

And, speaking of Gen 5, those games also introduced many features that were clearly catering to competitive, most notably the Dream World. It didn't offer a whole lot in regards to story mode, but for competitive players, it offered access to Berries and more importantly, Pokémon with special Abilities.

Ironically, some competitive battlers are actually mad at Game Freak for the things they've done to the competitive scene, mainly the power creep and Megas.

And, many of those instances of power creep were the result of GF buffing certain Pokémon and moves to competitive standards. Politoed was nothing but a generic outclassed Water type before it got Drizzle, and the likes of Charizard, Kangaskhan, and Mawile were all at the bottom of the lowest tier before they got their Megas. When certain things are obviously falling behind in the competitive scene, GF usually responds by buffing the underpowered things instead of nerfing the overpowered ones, which tends to create more power creep.

But what I really think is the issue is Game Freak's inability to be consistent with things between games. The Day/Night system was in G/S/C and R/S/E, but not in Fr/Lg, only to return in Gen 4. Special move tutors existed in Platinum and Black2/White2, but not in Black/White or X/Y. The Battle Frontier and trainer customization was missing from ORAS. Gym Leader and Elite 4 rematches (with beefed up parties) have been inconsistent throughout the whole series. And a bunch of other things.

Well, I can tell you that the main reason FRLG lacked a clock if because GF wanted them to be a copy/paste of the original RBY. It's a similar case with ORAS and the Battle Frontier/trainer customization.

As for the others, I have no idea. I do agree that this seemingly random removal of features from games is annoying.

I don't see why they can't cater to both competitive AND casual players. That would be the better business strategy imo. But I suppose that's difficult to do when they make these under time constraints these days.....which is why they need to stop doing yearly releases.

As I said, the biggest problem with trying to cater to both is that both groups are literally playing different games. For casuals, the main point of the games is to beat the bad guys, become Champion, and "Catch 'em All," while for competitive players, the main point of the games is to build a "perfect" team and win as many battles against other people as possible. The games were designed with the former playstyle in mind, but the latter garnered its own dedicated and extremely vocal fanbase, and GF has responded by trying to awkwardly fit competitive tastes into the main games, which just doesn't work. Casual players don't like the adventure and collecting aspects of the games being downplayed in favor of a side activity (with a very high bar of entry) that they will never participate in, while competitive players just want the story to be scrapped altogether in favor of a pure battle simulator. There's just no reconciling the two sides, I'm afraid.

 

[Nah]

Idk, I have seen some non-competitive Pokemon players complain about Gen V and its story too. But you are right that Gen V did bring its share of competitive things to the table.

I suppose I'm just a rare breed that actually enjoys both the competitive and non-competitive aspects of Pokemon....

 

[Candy]

Really, the casual vs competitive is getting ridiculous. The hard part is to satisfy both ends of the scale. One scale goes up, the other goes down. It's hard to find the perfect balance of features to satisfy the demands of both parties.

Although, I'm actually glad that GF is making competitive battling easier. It helps introduce the casual players into the world of competitive battling, and they can choose on whether to stick with the regular playstyles or delve further into the inner depths Pokemon.

What I disagree about GF's choices is the lack of any form of Battle Frontier just because it is deemed "too hard" for players. But that's really the beauty of the battle facilities. It helps creating a fun challenge that casual players can enjoy even reaching the 21st streak, as well as a good challenge for any competitive trainers that may get tired of the usual battles.

 

[Orithan]

Yes and no.
Yes in the regard that it should be accessible to casuals, because you really shouldn't be forced to RNG to get perfect IVs (ala Gen V and before) on your pokemon nor should you be breeding tons just to be able to put a decent team together.
No in the regard that the games should be focused on the competitive side. Truth to be told, Pokemon has a very unbalanced metagame and you can never make it entirely balanced without completely neglecting the casual side. Especially Singles, and Doubles may eventually meet the same fate if the power curve continues to rise. Speaking of the power curve, Gamefreak did really poorly in that regard by buffing underpowered pokemon into overpowered beasts; especially Mawile and Kangashan, and making their and the fan favorites OP; especially Greninja (more specifically Protean), Salamence and Lucario. They also have no hope in competing against Pokemon Showdown or Pokemon Online without stripping the games down to nothing but the battles.
What Gamefreak should do is set up their own simulator; something along the lines of another Pokemon Stadium installment should work, make sure it works like the fan sims (and allow people to set up their own metagames) and shut down the fan simulators after they set up their own. I know that this move would seriously tick off huge portions of the competitive fanbase, but the major fan simulators (especially Pokemon Showdown and Pokemon Online) would cannibalize the sales of any battling sim that Gamefreak puts out. Heck, they might even be part of the the reason that Gen V never received a Stadium installment.

 

[BettyNewbie]

Really, the casual vs competitive is getting ridiculous. The hard part is to satisfy both ends of the scale. One scale goes up, the other goes down. It's hard to find the perfect balance of features to satisfy the demands of both parties.

Pretty much. It's impossible to place a greater emphasis on competitive without causing story mode to suffer, while catering more to casual fans and fleshing out the main games does nothing but frustrate those who just want to button mash through and get to breeding/EV-ing, ASAP.

While it's nice that competitive battling has become more accessible in the most recent games, it isn't nice that it has come at the expense of the main story, which has now seemingly become a side activity tacked onto the "metagame" instead of the other way around.

What I disagree about GF's choices is the lack of any form of Battle Frontier just because it is deemed "too hard" for players. But that's really the beauty of the battle facilities. It helps creating a fun challenge that casual players can enjoy even reaching the 21st streak, as well as a good challenge for any competitive trainers that may get tired of the usual battles.

I'm not so sure I can agree about the accessibility of battle facilities (the one in Crystal still gives me nightmares, and I was using "perfect" Pokémon in a Gen that lacked Natures/510 EVs), but yes, they do offer an alternative to multiplayer.

Speaking of the power curve, Gamefreak did really poorly in that regard by buffing underpowered pokemon into overpowered beasts; especially Mawile and Kangashan, and making their and the fan favorites OP; especially Greninja (more specifically Protean), Salamence and Lucario. They also have no hope in competing against Pokemon Showdown or Pokemon Online without stripping the games down to nothing but the battles.

As I said, that's what happens whenever GF tries to "balance" competitive. Instead of nerfing the overpowered things, they buff the underpowered ones, instead, which usually results in power creep out the wazoo. (Not to mention their inconsistency in doing this. Ice types are horribly weak in both story mode and competitive, yet they haven't received a single buff in the entire 20 years of the franchise. In fact, they continue to be nerfed, instead, from the accuracy drop to Blizzard and added Steel weakness in Gen 2 to the nerf to Ice Beam and Blizzard's strength in Gen 6. It's telling that GF simply created a new type to deal with Dragons instead of bothering to fix Ice, as if they see the type as beyond repair.)

What Gamefreak should do is set up their own simulator; something along the lines of another Pokemon Stadium installment should work, make sure it works like the fan sims (and allow people to set up their own metagames) and shut down the fan simulators after they set up their own. I know that this move would seriously tick off huge portions of the competitive fanbase, but the major fan simulators (especially Pokemon Showdown and Pokemon Online) would cannibalize the sales of any battling sim that Gamefreak puts out. Heck, they might even be part of the the reason that Gen V never received a Stadium installment.

Actually, I think the main reason Gen 5 never got a Stadium game was because the last one, Battle Revolution, was a flop. (In fact, PBR seemed to be a big enough flop to kill Pokémon on the consoles for good, as none have been released since Gen 4, as far as I know.)

Otherwise, I completely agree with you. As I said, competitive battlers are playing a different game from casuals, so why not actually give them one? Let them have their battle simulator, and let the main games become all about "Gotta' Catch 'em All" again. It's a win-win.

 

[Orithan]

Actually, I think the main reason Gen 5 never got a Stadium game was because the last one, Battle Revolution, was a flop. (In fact, PBR seemed to be a big enough flop to kill Pokémon on the consoles for good, as none have been released since Gen 4, as far as I know.)

Otherwise, I completely agree with you. As I said, competitive battlers are playing a different game from casuals, so why not actually give them one? Let them have their battle simulator, and let the main games become all about "Gotta' Catch 'em All" again. It's a win-win.

I'm fairly certain that the simulators were part of the reason PBR flopped big time, as well as lack of advertising, as competitive battling was on the rise during Gen IV which led to GF addressing the rising demand in Gen V with numerous mechanics like Hidden Abilities and Dream World. Smogon and Pokemon Online were around during that time and were far more convenient to play on thanks to being able to automatically give your pokemon perfect IVs/EVs/Natutre/etc. whereas PBR preserved the classic (but presumably outdated) Stadium format but with a limited selection of rental pokemon and no minigames.
IDK wherever or not the sims were widely known during that era but given places like 4-Chan, it seems likely that the sims would have been somewhat well known.

 

[mew_nani]

Wow. So they changed Wally from being a kind gentle soul to a metagaming freak? That makes me want to not play ORAS even more.

Having something that caters to the metagame isn't entirely bad, as it makes the game more fun to those who play it for that, but if they're even changing characters and storylines to revolve around it there's a huge problem there. The entire point of Pokemon was to befriend them all, not to win. The idea was to win with your favorite Pokemon, not just throw them all out for a perfect team so you can win all the matches. Horde battles aren't too bad as they help you find shinies and it's really neat to run into a lot of Pokemon at once, and Pokemon Amie and even Super Training aren't that bad since you can get items and befriend your Pokemon even more, but at this point Pokemon isn't as much about befriending them as it is about winning constantly. The power of friendship is what made N change his mind about humans and Pokemon being together in Black and White. I wonder what he'd say now that even the game itself is fine with you ditching your friends for the perfect metagaming team.

But still even ignoring that the games are becoming more like Call of Duty; the single player mode suffers for the sake of the multiplayer scene, and once the newest game comes out the older ones are outdated. I don't think that's ever happened before; games in the same generation were generally compatible with one another and could all participate in tournaments. Now only the newest ones can.

 

[BettyNewbie]

I'm fairly certain that the simulators were part of the reason PBR flopped big time, as well as lack of advertising, as competitive battling was on the rise during Gen IV which led to GF addressing the rising demand in Gen V with numerous mechanics like Hidden Abilities and Dream World. Smogon and Pokemon Online were around during that time and were far more convenient to play on thanks to being able to automatically give your pokemon perfect IVs/EVs/Natutre/etc. whereas PBR preserved the classic (but presumably outdated) Stadium format but with a limited selection of rental pokemon and no minigames.
IDK wherever or not the sims were widely known during that era but given places like 4-Chan, it seems likely that the sims would have been somewhat well known.

That's very true. The only advantage PBR had over the simulators was better graphics, but graphics were never a top concern for the predominately left-brained Smogon crowd (who only care about numbers and mechanics), and the simulators were otherwise superior in every way. The simulators made it so that people never even had to touch the actual games to get into battling (which is why GF's efforts to cater to them in the main games will ultimately backfire), and they also allowed people to more easily enforce Smogon rules and whatnot.

I guess, the only way a new Stadium-type game will happen now is if it's basically a clone of the fan-made simulators (but with superior graphics and more features) or if it has a strong story element like the Orre games.

 

[mew_nani]

That's very true. The only advantage PBR had over the simulators was better graphics, but graphics were never a top concern for the predominately left-brained Smogon crowd (who only care about numbers and mechanics), and the simulators were otherwise superior in every way. The simulators made it so that people never even had to touch the actual games to get into battling (which is why GF's efforts to cater to them in the main games will ultimately backfire), and they also allowed people to more easily enforce Smogon rules and whatnot.

I guess, the only way a new Stadium-type game will happen now is if it's basically a clone of the fan-made simulators (but with superior graphics and more features) or if it has a strong story element like the Orre games.

Weeeeelll.. it also had awesome tunes and you could get special items and Pokemon that were either hard or impossible to get in game, like a surfing Pikachu.

Unfortunately though I don't even know if the stronger story Colosseum type-game would work. After all people aren't really playing so much for the story anymore; it would have to have special Pokemon in it to lure them in like Jirachi or Mew or Darkrai or some such. Actually that would be awesome to have a Mew available in a game like that. We haven't had a Mew distribution since Gen IV.

 

[BettyNewbie]

The power of friendship is what made N change his mind about humans and Pokemon being together in Black and White. I wonder what he'd say now that even the game itself is fine with you ditching your friends for the perfect metagaming team.

I fear for the eventual BW remakes. -_-

But still even ignoring that the games are becoming more like Call of Duty; the single player mode suffers for the sake of the multiplayer scene, and once the newest game comes out the older ones are outdated. I don't think that's ever happened before; games in the same generation were generally compatible with one another and could all participate in tournaments. Now only the newest ones can.

That's a very apt comparison, however horrifying it is. (Seriously, "Cowadoody" is the last thing any respectable gaming franchise should imitate.)

Yeah, the lack of backwards compatibility between XY and ORAS puzzles me. Even in past Gens, the earlier games could still "see" newer formes and whatnot, even if the correct sprite wasn't displayed. For example, a DP game that's linked with a Platinum/HGSS game that has an Origin Forme Giratina will still recognize the Origin Forme's stats, but show it with the Altered Forme's sprite. It's a similar case with BW/B2W2 and the Kyurem formes.

On the other hand, XY can't even "see" ORAS' Megas, let alone display them correctly (with the lone exception of the Latis, since their Megas exist in XY's data for some reason), thus rendering the games "obsolete" when they're only a little over a year old. If Gen 6 gets another installment, I'm sure it'll do the same thing to ORAS. Apparently, version exclusives and Third Versions aren't enough to leech money out of fans anymore. :rolleyes2:

Unfortunately though I don't even know if the stronger story Colosseum type-game would work. After all people aren't really playing so much for the story anymore; it would have to have special Pokemon in it to lure them in like Jirachi or Mew or Darkrai or some such. Actually that would be awesome to have a Mew available in a game like that. We haven't had a Mew distribution since Gen IV.

Sad, but true. With so many people focused on competitive and nothing but, there isn't a whole lot of room for stories anymore. Heck, even back in the day, people bashed Colosseum/XD for not being pure battle simulators like the Stadium games, despite them being the franchise's darkest and most story-driven games at the time. (The fact that the games were also required to complete Gen 3's Pokédex didn't help matters.)

 

[Cerberus87]

Focus on competitive isn't always a bad thing. The changes they did in the mechanics from 4th gen onwards were mostly to boost competitive and, a few exceptions notwithstanding, were for the better. I really don't want to go back to a world where Scizor's strongest STAB move was Steel Wing.

One could also argue that Game Freak only cares about the doubles metagame and not the singles metagame, despite the latter still being the more popular format.

That's a GOOD thing. Doubles is far cooler.

Example of what you said: Explosion nerf. Otherwise triples would consist of who can kaboom first.

Special move tutors existed in Platinum and Black2/White2, but not in Black/White or X/Y.

They do that to make people buy the revisions, you know.

 

[Megan]

It is undeniable that the games got a lot more aggressive pushing the competitive scene. However:

Competitive battling really is a different game from the main story, one that the Pokémon games were never really intended to be in the first place. (Otherwise, why would things like IVs and EVs be so hidden and so difficult to perfect without hacking?) Competitive requires completely different strategies and playstyles from story mode, and its entire existence runs counter to the "use your favorites" and "love your Pokémon" message that the games have been promoting since Day One:

The games were made for player interaction, which also includes people battling other people. Best way to prove it? Look at the battle system. How hard are ingame battles as opposed to battles against other people? Obviously, fighting other people is definitely harder and the reason for that is simply, that the battle system has always been concepted for that purpose. But in order to achieve that, ingame battles are a lot easier, because of how limited it is for the AI to prepare for player teams, when only having a given set of Pokemon that are bound to the same rules are the player Pokemon.

In RPGs you just throw in a boss with a ton of HP, devastating attacks, that the party will never obtain, and certain events during the battle.

The only reason why GF even cares about stuff like Super Training, is because people started caring about those numbers at some point and as soon as that happens, there's no reason to hide it anymore.

 

[BettyNewbie]

The games were made for player interaction, which also includes people battling other people.

Actually, the multiplayer features were traditionally geared towards completing the Pokédex rather than battling other people. Yes, you were always able to link up and battle other people, but the primary goal was trading with others to complete your Pokédex. That's why the motto was "Gotta' Catch 'Em All" and not "Gotta' Win 'Em All."

Look at the battle system. How hard are ingame battles as opposed to battles against other people? Obviously, fighting other people is definitely harder and the reason for that is simply, that the battle system has always been concepted for that purpose. But in order to achieve that, ingame battles are a lot easier, because of how limited it is for the AI to prepare for player teams, when only having a given set of Pokemon that are bound to the same rules are the player Pokemon.

You prove my point. Things like IVs and EVs were never meant to be discovered, nor were they ever meant to have a huge impact on the game. The battle system was intended to be just a simple rock/paper/scissors deal; with enough leveling and planning, you could become Champion with your favorite Pokémon, no matter what. IVs and EVs (and later, Natures) were only there for the purposes of diversity and weren't intended to be manipulated for the sake of gaining an edge in battles.

Focus on competitive isn't always a bad thing. The changes they did in the mechanics from 4th gen onwards were mostly to boost competitive and, a few exceptions notwithstanding, were for the better. I really don't want to go back to a world where Scizor's strongest STAB move was Steel Wing.

Things like the P/S Split and larger movesets also enhance story mode, as they give people more options to use on their teams (as well as make bosses more challenging). There's nothing wrong with tweaks like that.

What I have a problem with is focusing on competitive at the expense of story mode, which is clearly what GF is doing in the most recent games. With a few exceptions, most of the new mechanics are overwhelmingly more beneficial to competitive players than casual ones, all while the main game has been diluted to the point of being just a side activity to the "metagame," rather than the other way around. Becoming League Champion and completing your Pokédex means nothing anymore.

 

[DyingWillFlareon]

I don't really mind it when they cater to competitive players. I'm not one but I do have a few Pokemon traded over from competitive players from giveaways and such. But it's when I can't even enjoy a good game/post game that I get upset. :( I understand at least half of the players are competitive, but can't they do things like battle competitions for casual players? I want to win special HA pokemon too without getting my team's butts kicked by a competitive player. Of course there is no way to really balance it withoug taking away good things from wach side: the casual players will lose story and the competitive ones will deal with whatever's left of it. :(

Also I agree with mew_nani, I havenmt been able to get to Wally at that point yet(BECAUSE I HAVE NO BR POKEMON) but that sounds horrible, having him ditch his Gallade! D=<

 

[Juxapose]

While there's nothing inherently wrong with GF paying more attention to the competitive community, I strongly dislike how it seems to be coming at the expense of story mode and casual players, in general. XY and ORAS are nice looking games, but what do they really offer for people who have zero interest in competitive battling? ORAS have nostalgia, I guess, but otherwise?

I can't say that I disagree with this statement. But I can't say that I agree with it either. Although the main characters of X/Y are lifeless and forgettable, I had a powerful mental trip over the story of AZ and the whole "Pokemon war" and "Pokemon Resurrection" and "Pokemon death and rebirth" aspect of the story. I literally played the game over 5 times just to absorb the story (mainly because it's told so short in the span of a few minutes during the infiltration of Team Flare's base). Not to mention that the whole final battle with AZ is one of the most emotional parts of the story which gave some level of conclusion. ORAS didn't have that level of storytelling, and often just slapped X/Y's story in the face with the many contradictions and needless backstory of characters I cared little about (Mr. Bonding as an example). ORAS doesn't know if it's a remake, a prequel, or sequel to the XY games or the original Emerald. X/Y had a great story, but it was only lightly touched upon, while ORAS is just competitive dog food.

 

[RedJ]

Don't have much to say that hasn't already been said at the moment, but since I'm here:

While the competitive pandering is less obvious in ORAS due to them being remakes, it's also still there. In the original games, Wally was this weak, sickly boy who became stronger through the love of his Pokémon, always sticking by that very first Ralts he ever caught. He's a bit more developed in the remakes, but not necessarily for the better. After a certain point, he starts taking on the Gyms, and his dialog gradually becomes less gentle and more forceful, leading up to his final appearance at the Battle Maison with a team ripped straight from Smogon. Even worse, his dialog strongly implies that ditched his entire old team for a new "perfect" one, including his Gallade:

He hasn't completely ditched his old team- his Gallade and Roserade are the same ones that he had at Victory Road (same abilities + same IVs). Also, both his Victory Road and Battle Maison teams have far from perfect IVs, with all of them having 20 in each stat. That being said, his initial Ralts only has 15 in each stat, so he could have possibly gotten another one and raised it instead, but going by the way he talks about Gallade at Victory Road it seems to be the same Pokemon and is more of a case of gameplay/story segregation.

 

[Cerberus87]

What I have a problem with is focusing on competitive at the expense of story mode, which is clearly what GF is doing in the most recent games. With a few exceptions, most of the new mechanics are overwhelmingly more beneficial to competitive players than casual ones, all while the main game has been diluted to the point of being just a side activity to the "metagame," rather than the other way around. Becoming League Champion and completing your Pokédex means nothing anymore.

I don't fully agree with that. While GF has introduced ways to trivialize the game in XY, they've also tried to create a story that dealt wih deep values. Too bad the execution was poor, otherwise it could've been the best in the series.

A lot of people here (I'm not saying it's your case) didn't understand what XY's story was all about. Lysandre is actually one of the more multidimensional characters in the series and the first boss (I'm counting Ghetsis as Plasma boss instead of N) you could actually sympathize with depending on what you believe in.

Also, they did give us the Delta Episode which is an entire postgame quest that deals with the Pokéverse's worldbuilding. XY also has story-driven miniquests.

They can't really give up focus on competitive, because competitive has a large community around it and Masuda himself likes to show up at competitive events. But I expect them to improve their storytelling in the future.

 

[BettyNewbie]

But it's when I can't even enjoy a good game/post game that I get upset. :( I understand at least half of the players are competitive, but can't they do things like battle competitions for casual players? I want to win special HA pokemon too without getting my team's butts kicked by a competitive player. Of course there is no way to really balance it withoug taking away good things from wach side: the casual players will lose story and the competitive ones will deal with whatever's left of it. :(

That's a huge problem with the postgames of the recent games, they don't offer much for people who aren't into competitive. Outside of a quick Looker (XY)/Delta Episode (ORAS) side plot, it's nothing but battle facilities or multiplayer. Yawn. :rolleyes2:

He hasn't completely ditched his old team- his Gallade and Roserade are the same ones that he had at Victory Road (same abilities + same IVs). Also, both his Victory Road and Battle Maison teams have far from perfect IVs, with all of them having 20 in each stat. That being said, his initial Ralts only has 15 in each stat, so he could have possibly gotten another one and raised it instead, but going by the way he talks about Gallade at Victory Road it seems to be the same Pokemon and is more of a case of gameplay/story segregation.

Let me repost his Battle Maison dialog again:

"I knew my team makeup was still off. Then...I guess I need to take this guy out. No, if I do that, I'll be wide open for... Hmm... Then if I replace this move here... Yeah... Yeah, that should do it!"

"Hah...hah... Maybe I need to start again from scratch. But you performed as well as I'd expect, <player>! You even beat the best team I could put together!"
​

While he doesn't literally say it, he strongly implies that his entire team is new, including the Roserade and Gallade. How else can you interpret "Maybe I need to start again from scratch"?

I don't fully agree with that. While GF has introduced ways to trivialize the game in XY, they've also tried to create a story that dealt with deep values. Too bad the execution was poor, otherwise it could've been the best in the series.

A lot of people here (I'm not saying it's your case) didn't understand what XY's story was all about. Lysandre is actually one of the more multidimensional characters in the series and the first boss (I'm counting Ghetsis as Plasma boss instead of N) you could actually sympathize with depending on what you believe in.

If you see depth in XY, more power to you, but all I saw was a bunch of generic, tired clichés. Team Flare wants to make money and eliminate people, big whoop. Already seen it a million times. The only interesting thing about it is how Lysandre sort've possibly died at the end of the game.

And, that's not even getting into the rivals, Gym Leaders, E4 members, and even the Champion, who are completely forgettable and some of the most cardboard yet. At least, the Unova games tried to involve its NPCs with the main plot.

Also, they did give us the Delta Episode which is an entire postgame quest that deals with the Pokéverse's worldbuilding. XY also has story-driven miniquests.

They only put that in there because they needed to explain why Megas and Fairies were in Hoenn, but not Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova, and it may have ultimately caused as many timeline issues as it fixed.

Oh, wow, a quick Looker sidequest, big whoop. GSC/HGSS had another full region.

They can't really give up focus on competitive, because competitive has a large community around it and Masuda himself likes to show up at competitive events. But I expect them to improve their storytelling in the future.

If they're going to continue to focus on competitive, and they probably will, then don't expect stories to improve. Competitive battlers don't give a crap about storytelling and just want to get to battling ASAP. No, what will happen is that story mode will continue to become less and less important and prominent until it disappears altogether.