Should GF cater to competitive players?

[Pendraflare]

I've mentioned before that I think they already are catering to competitive players, and not simply because of how they're supposedly making the games easier so they can get through the game quick and get to the competitive scene. Some of the newer games, like B2W2 and XY, had you able to get certain competitive items like Leftovers well before the post-game, and there were some in BW as well.

With the point brought up a couple posts ago about Wally's team, B2W2 had some opponents that had odd held items, like Colress' Eviolite Magneton and Air Balloon Klinklang, Ghetsis' Cofagrigus with Leftovers and Life Orb Hydreigon, and the entire Elite Four and Champion on Challenge Mode (and Iris' Haxorus with a Focus Sash). XY and ORAS didn't have much of those, though, so it does leave one wondering what they were behind when they gave certain B2W2 opponents these items.

 

[mew_nani]

I don't fully agree with that. While GF has introduced ways to trivialize the game in XY, they've also tried to create a story that dealt wih deep values. Too bad the execution was poor, otherwise it could've been the best in the series.

A lot of people here (I'm not saying it's your case) didn't understand what XY's story was all about. Lysandre is actually one of the more multidimensional characters in the series and the first boss (I'm counting Ghetsis as Plasma boss instead of N) you could actually sympathize with depending on what you believe in.

Also, they did give us the Delta Episode which is an entire postgame quest that deals with the Pokéverse's worldbuilding. XY also has story-driven miniquests.

They can't really give up focus on competitive, because competitive has a large community around it and Masuda himself likes to show up at competitive events. But I expect them to improve their storytelling in the future.

I disagree; Lysandre isn't a multidimensional character. We're given next to no information on his backstory, how he ended up the leader of Team Flare, and really no characteristics besides wanting to commit genocide and liking Pokemon enough to cry about them. That's not necessary a death knell for a character, as Giovanni doesn't exactly have a full character sheet, but Lysandre is supposed to be a cross between N and Cyrus, both emotional and calculating, and he fails on both fronts. He wants to commit genocide on the entire world, leaving only himself and his lackeys alive, has a horrible reason to do so (Really now? You're committing mass murder because there's not gonna be enough resources for everybody?), and we don't see him emit much emotion at all. His only range of expressions is affably evil and crying. What?

That's not enough to be anything more than a two dimensional character at best, because he doesn't have any depth to him. He's the visualization of a future problem; other than that he has no standout personality. The lore was the best thing about the story, and we only get one whole scene where it's revealed. The lore should have just been the whole story, not this guy.

But with all that said, there's not a lot of story in Pokemon anymore. You can't really say there ever was much story in Pokemon, seeing as how the story usually consists of becoming champion and defeating one or two evil teams, but it still engaged you and made you want to play. These days you're lucky if you get much story at all; the evil team only shows up at the very end and it immediately stops after you defeat the champion. It's off to the Battle Maison for you! Even with Pokemon Red you could hunt out Mewtwo and catch him, and with Black and White you hunted down the Sages that assisted with Team Plasma as well as exploring the rest of the region. In X and Y you go help Looker and hang out at that tiny little town that can only be accessed by train for some reason.

I think even the gameplay is suffering at this point, as X and Y are not nearly as polished as they need to be. From the lag brought on by the 3D feature in battle to 3D not even being available in the whole game and there being too much linearity in routes and not enough exploration of landmarks it makes the game as a whole less fun to play.

 

[Cerberus87]

He wants to commit genocide on the entire world, leaving only himself and his lackeys alive, has a horrible reason to do so (Really now? You're committing mass murder because there's not gonna be enough resources for everybody?), and we don't see him emit much emotion at all. His only range of expressions is affably evil and crying. What?

What you see as "horrible" (with which I agree), other people see as a "side effect". Just look around and see how people want to send immigrants back to their lands because they don't want to share "their" riches with them. In Lysandre's diary it was said the people he helped "took his help for granted" and developed into bad people (I don't remember exactly what was in the diary, so excuse me), into people who would only want more and more, and I couldn't help but think that's exactly how conservative parties in the world view the poor classes of society (basically, as lazy leeches). This struck me as something very real.

 

[mew_nani]

What you see as "horrible" (with which I agree), other people see as a "side effect". Just look around and see how people want to send immigrants back to their lands because they don't want to share "their" riches with them. In Lysandre's diary it was said the people he helped "took his help for granted" and developed into bad people (I don't remember exactly what was in the diary, so excuse me), into people who would only want more and more, and I couldn't help but think that's exactly how conservative parties in the world view the poor classes of society (basically, as lazy leeches). This struck me as something very real.

Yay people took my riches for granted and took advantage of my kindness! I'll just go kill them all and leave my personal bed of leeches alive!

This happens to everybody, whether you're liberal, conservative, black, white, pink, purple, or a dragon. Even if it may resonate with the viewer it is not enough to make a character a good villain, especially given that this guy could have just helped poor people directly and not made himself into a fluffy Adolph Hitler. Even if people took advantage of his riches it is not an excuse to brutally murder everybody, and it does not make you sympathetic at all. If anything it makes him more of an unlikable character because the world is full of both good and bad people, and he knows this and still insists on murdering everyone but his own party which is completely full of people who take advantage of his riches and are bad people!

 

[Cerberus87]

Yay people took my riches for granted and took advantage of my kindness! I'll just go kill them all and leave my personal bed of leeches alive!

This happens to everybody, whether you're liberal, conservative, black, white, pink, purple, or a dragon. Even if it may resonate with the viewer it is not enough to make a character a good villain, especially given that this guy could have just helped poor people directly and not made himself into a fluffy Adolph Hitler. Even if people took advantage of his riches it is not an excuse to brutally murder everybody, and it does not make you sympathetic at all. If anything it makes him more of an unlikable character because the world is full of both good and bad people, and he knows this and still insists on murdering everyone but his own party which is completely full of people who take advantage of his riches and are bad people!

Look, every Pokémon villain is contradictory like that. Team Plasma wants to free Pokémon from human oppression but do so by abusing the captured Pokémon. I could gather similar examples from all other games, except for RBYGSC because Team Rocket didn't make any effort to disguise their evilness.

There have been posts on XY forum trying to justify Lysandre's actions, with which I don't agree of course because like you I also think Lysandre's actions were despicable.

 

[mew_nani]

Look, every Pokémon villain is contradictory like that. Team Plasma wants to free Pokémon from human oppression but do so by abusing the captured Pokémon. I could gather similar examples from all other games, except for RBYGSC because Team Rocket didn't make any effort to disguise their evilness.

There have been posts on XY forum trying to justify Lysandre's actions, with which I don't agree of course because like you I also think Lysandre's actions were despicable.

Of course every team tends to kick Growlithes around left and right and act mean but the reason I mention it here is because Lysandre is supposed to be an anti-villain. N got away with it because he really had no idea how bad his team members were; the grunts he ran into tried to act their best around him and keep their villainy hidden, and he had an admirable goal: stopping cruelty against Pokemon. Lysandre on the other hand attempts to act like N does but not only has the goal of complete genocide on Earth, he also knows how his grunts act; selfish and unkind towards others. He considers himself an anti-villain but isn't one, and the game agrees with him.

This isn't an argument towards you, by the way. Just the idea that Lysandre is worthy of sympathy. He's either bonkers or the most evil Pokemon villain yet, and he's not given nearly enough screentime to give us a good reason why he's the way he is.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Lysander's excuse of resources being limited also made little sense given that we've only seen a land of plenty thus far in all gens, even Kalos for the most part.

On topic: Well competitive is a natural result given that people tend to like to see who is the best of something. I think the main series will continue this way until there is a swing against all the competitive play over story (btw Kanto in the Johto games lacked much story too...) I think this thread may signal the start for the desire of story. Sadly for now we are stuck with stories as thick as Gen I's...Gen I (and to some extent II-IV) lacking a Gen V deep story may have been due to a focus on trading and completing the dex over building a deeper story. Actually "Got to Catch them all" is strong this Gen the ability to trade on the go (in game). I would love it if they kept competitive and trading the way it is now for Gen VI and focused on the story.

 

[BettyNewbie]

I've mentioned before that I think they already are catering to competitive players, and not simply because of how they're supposedly making the games easier so they can get through the game quick and get to the competitive scene. Some of the newer games, like B2W2 and XY, had you able to get certain competitive items like Leftovers well before the post-game, and there were some in BW as well.

With the point brought up a couple posts ago about Wally's team, B2W2 had some opponents that had odd held items, like Colress' Eviolite Magneton and Air Balloon Klinklang, Ghetsis' Co***rigus with Leftovers and Life Orb Hydreigon, and the entire Elite Four and Champion on Challenge Mode (and Iris' Haxorus with a Focus Sash). XY and ORAS didn't have much of those, though, so it does leave one wondering what they were behind when they gave certain B2W2 opponents these items.

It's possible that in Gen 5 (particularly, B2W2) GF tried to gear the games towards competitive players by making story mode harder, especially with Challenge Mode, but it didn't quite work out. It still wasn't anywhere near as challenging as competitive, and Challenge Mode was stupidly difficult to obtain, anyways.

With Gen 6, GF just threw their hands up in the air and made the games as easy as possible so people could just blast through them and get on to the "metagame." (This might be one reason why we got the RS Gym Leader teams in ORAS instead of the Emerald ones. The RS teams are easier.)

But with all that said, there's not a lot of story in Pokemon anymore. You can't really say there ever was much story in Pokemon, seeing as how the story usually consists of becoming champion and defeating one or two evil teams, but it still engaged you and made you want to play. These days you're lucky if you get much story at all; the evil team only shows up at the very end and it immediately stops after you defeat the champion. It's off to the Battle Maison for you! Even with Pokemon Red you could hunt out Mewtwo and catch him, and with Black and White you hunted down the Sages that assisted with Team Plasma as well as exploring the rest of the region. In X and Y you go help Looker and hang out at that tiny little town that can only be accessed by train for some reason.

I think even the gameplay is suffering at this point, as X and Y are not nearly as polished as they need to be. From the lag brought on by the 3D feature in battle to 3D not even being available in the whole game and there being too much linearity in routes and not enough exploration of landmarks it makes the game as a whole less fun to play.

No, Pokémon never had the strongest story, but it was always, at least, engaging. RBY's story was very bare bones, but it was still endearing and full of memorable moments.

XY's story, on the other hand, lacks all of those things. It just falls flat and is neither engaging or interesting. It's the kind of story that's made to be button-smashed through, an obstacle keeping you from competitive battling and nothing more. Bleh.

 

[mew_nani]

Lysander's excuse of resources being limited also made little sense given that we've only seen a land of plenty thus far in all gens, even Kalos for the most part.

On topic: Well competitive is a natural result given that people tend to like to see who is the best of something. I think the main series will continue this way until there is a swing against all the competitive play over story (btw Kanto in the Johto games lacked much story too...) I think this thread may signal the start for the desire of story. Sadly for now we are stuck with stories as thick as Gen I's...Gen I (and to some extent II-IV) lacking a Gen V deep story may have been due to a focus on trading and completing the dex over building a deeper story. Actually "Got to Catch them all" is strong this Gen the ability to trade on the go (in game). I would love it if they kept competitive and trading the way it is now for Gen VI and focused on the story.

Yeah... in the real world we have numerous problems that simply don't seem to exist in the Pokemon universe, and the lack of resources is one of those problems. I've never heard of famine or war being a problem in the Pokemon universe at least in the modern era, and there are many Pokemon that naturally generate food and drink on their own like Chansey and Miltank. Those problems might actually exist there but they don't seem to be as much a problem there as they are over here. Just what was Lysandre so upset about that he thought the end of all life was a good idea? Even AZ had the excuse of being too angry to think when he turned the machine on the world.

As for the central theme being strong this gen.. I sadly don't think it's as easy as it is simply for the sake of completing the Pokedex. I say it's likely that way to make competitive battling easier, as in most tournaments only Gen VI Pokemon are eligible, and with only two games to get (and the latest game having most of the legendaries,) it's easier to just get into the groove and build the perfect team.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

It's possible that in Gen 5 (particularly, B2W2) GF tried to gear the games towards competitive players by making story mode harder, especially with Challenge Mode, but it didn't quite work out. It still wasn't anywhere near as challenging as competitive, and Challenge Mode was stupidly difficult to obtain, anyways.

With Gen 6, GF just threw their hands up in the air and made the games as easy as possible so people could just blast through them and get on to the "metagame." (This might be one reason why we got the RS Gym Leader teams in ORAS instead of the Emerald ones. The RS teams are easier.)



No, Pokémon never had the strongest story, but it was always, at least, engaging. RBY's story was very bare bones, but it was still endearing and full of memorable moments.

XY's story, on the other hand, lacks all of those things. It just falls flat and is neither engaging or interesting. It's the kind of story that's made to be button-smashed through, an obstacle keeping you from competitive battling and nothing more. Bleh.

0_o I thought you said you hadn't played X or Y. There are some memorable moments in them for me, such as the firework scene with Shauna, and Lysander's announcement, also the weapon going up and the beam firing, the HQ collapsing, AZ's battle post Diantha and his reunion with Floette. There was also the battle with Korrina and her giving us one of her Lucario. It's these things that make me rate them the same as Gen I...well FRLG (I can't speak for the originals as I never played them, but since you said it was a copy and paste perhaps I can...), though I am thinking of bumping up Unova to fourth place (1st: II-IV, 4th: V,I, VI ).

Anyways something FRLG beats XY (and ORAS) in is the post game...there's nothing to do this gen post game beyond competitive...

 

[BettyNewbie]

As for the central theme being strong this gen.. I sadly don't think it's as easy as it is simply for the sake of completing the Pokedex. I say it's likely that way to make competitive battling easier, as in most tournaments only Gen VI Pokemon are eligible, and with only two games to get (and the latest game having most of the legendaries,) it's easier to just get into the groove and build the perfect team.

That's exactly the case. In most tournaments, only Blue Pentagon Pokémon are allowed, which excludes anything transferred from an earlier Gen. With XY and ORAS together, you can obtain all but a few event Legendaries natively in Gen 6.

(And, of course, do I even need to get into how the Blue Pentagon stuff is the most thinly-veiled cash grab ever? In previous Gens, transferred Pokémon were 100% usable and little different from other traded Pokémon. Now, you literally have to buy all of the newest games to get them all.)

Anyways something FRLG beats XY (and ORAS) in is the post game...there's nothing to do this gen post game beyond competitive...

Sad, but true. Even a bunch of generic islands are better than a generic battle facility. :rolleyes2:

BTW, I haven't played XY, but I've watched others play them.

 

[Cerberus87]

Well, at least GF tried something in XY. In Kanto it was basically "complete the Pokédex, beat the League while beating some thugs in the process". Compared to contemporary RPGs, Pokémon Red and Blue had zero story.

 

[mew_nani]

Well, at least GF tried something in XY. In Kanto it was basically "complete the Pokédex, beat the League while beating some thugs in the process". Compared to contemporary RPGs, Pokémon Red and Blue had zero story.

Red and Blue are exempt because they're the first Pokemon games made, and thus had a lot of early installment weirdness like the excuse plot of a story they have. Back then it was a simpler time; the main goal was to complete the Pokedex and become champion. There were no doomsday cults, no world-wreaking behemoths, no romance, no nothing. Just the occasional infiltration of the local mafia as you battled your rival and beat the Elite Four. It was simple but enjoyable, and even in its simplicity it's engaging enough to make you wanna keep playing.

That's the main difference between R/B and X/Y. Even if the story is just barely there, you can at least enjoy it. X/Y on the other hand had more of a story, but said story was boring and not very engaging. It had very awesome lore, yes, but the lore and the main storyline are pretty much mutually exclusive in X and Y and the storyline is just... boring.

 

[JJ Styles]

I'm a little split on this one.

While I'm mostly apathetic in the pokemon competitive scene such as VGC, I love how gamefreak has made competitive battling much more accessible to players since XY. (and still continues in ORAS). However, I'm a little flustered with the whole lack of in-game content for the CAZZZZZZZZSSSSSSUAL non EV training, non nature and IV breeding crowd (which apparently is still basically 50% of trainers). Well I'm sorry for you all but that's how its rolling now. POKE-ESPORTS is the way to go these days.

However, i do hope while Gamefreak still makes the games fun for both CAZZZZZZZZSSSSSUALS and Competitive/PVP/Online players out there, I do hope that gamefreak doesn't go the RITO way of balancing things (suddenly nerfing things without context and real explanations, nerfing things because players whine about them (DRAGON TYPE IZ SO OP BECAUSE I DONT KNOW HOW TO DEPLOY ICE TYPES OR TAKE ADVANTAGE OF SECONDARY WEAKNESSES, MAKE A TYPE IMMUNE TO DRAGON PLZ). We still have to know that Pokemon games aren't Starcraft, League, Dota, or fighting games were "character and gameplay balance changes and factors" are a central way of doing things.

Stealth Rock is the best skill ever.

 

[BettyNewbie]

Red and Blue are exempt because they're the first Pokemon games made, and thus had a lot of early installment weirdness like the excuse plot of a story they have. Back then it was a simpler time; the main goal was to complete the Pokedex and become champion. There were no doomsday cults, no world-wreaking behemoths, no romance, no nothing. Just the occasional infiltration of the local mafia as you battled your rival and beat the Elite Four. It was simple but enjoyable, and even in its simplicity it's engaging enough to make you wanna keep playing.

That's the main difference between R/B and X/Y. Even if the story is just barely there, you can at least enjoy it. X/Y on the other hand had more of a story, but said story was boring and not very engaging. It had very awesome lore, yes, but the lore and the main storyline are pretty much mutually exclusive in X and Y and the storyline is just... boring.

Exactly. Gen 1's story was extremely barebones, but it was still engaging and it even had some memorable characters. (Blue and Giovanni come to mind here.)

In fact, I think that's one of XY's biggest failings. The story focused too much on (awkwardly-done) lore and worldbuilding at the expense of character. To me, a story just isn't even remotely engaging if its characters are all about as interesting as a piece of cardboard. I can barely recall XY's rivals, Gym Leaders, and E4 members as it is, and knowing that they'll all inevitably be replaced with a completely new cast in a new region come Gen 7 doesn't give me any motivation to connect with any of them.

Yet again, Gen 5 did this better. While it had a deep and involved story, it was a very character-driven one, mostly being about N and his moral conflicts. It wasn't a save the world epic, and it didn't involve 3000 year old wars or multiple alternate timelines, and it was better for it.

While I'm mostly apathetic in the pokemon competitive scene such as VGC, I love how gamefreak has made competitive battling much more accessible to players since XY. (and still continues in ORAS). However, I'm a little flustered with the whole lack of in-game content for the CAZZZZZZZZSSSSSSUAL non EV training, non nature and IV breeding crowd (which apparently is still basically 50% of trainers). Well I'm sorry for you all but that's how its rolling now. POKE-ESPORTS is the way to go these days.

The "CAZZZZZZZZSSSSSSUAL" stuff is annoying and not even remotely funny.

Yes, it's unfortunate that the newest games are offering so little for casual players, which is why I have opted to not spend my hard-earned money on a 3DS or XY/ORAS. If GF cares that little about fans like me, then they don't get my money. (And, considering that XY were the worst-selling paired games yet, they should be very concerned.)

(suddenly nerfing things without context and real explanations, nerfing things because players whine about them (DRAGON TYPE IZ SO OP BECAUSE I DONT KNOW HOW TO DEPLOY ICE TYPES OR TAKE ADVANTAGE OF SECONDARY WEAKNESSES, MAKE A TYPE IMMUNE TO DRAGON PLZ).

Remember how awful Bug types were in Gen 1 and how they did little to stop the overpowered Psychic types they were supposed to be "strong" against? That's where Ice types have been for a very long time. Bad stats, bad weaknesses, bad movepools, you name it. Most Ice types would get outsped and nuked by Fire Blast/Stone Edge (after taking 25-50% Stealth Rock damage, of course) before they could even fire off the first Ice Beam, and even the standard Outrage/Draco Meteor could do the trick with Stealth Rock damage (as there always was). Plus, a ton of Dragons running around also meant a ton of Steels (for Dragon resist) and Fighting types (good against Steels), both of which are also bad news for Ice types. If MixMence didn't kill your Ice type, then Scizor would.

Most Ice Types are at the bottom of NU/PU for a very good reason. Mamoswine only gets by because of its Ground typing (No Stealth Rock weakness!) and STAB Ice Shard coming off of a powerful Attack. Cloyster has Shell Smash and Skill Link. Kyurem Black has a higher BST than Mewtwo. Otherwise, they're about as useful as a Beedrill. (Probably less now, thanks to Mega Beedrill.)

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

That's exactly the case. In most tournaments, only Blue Pentagon Pokémon are allowed, which excludes anything transferred from an earlier Gen. With XY and ORAS together, you can obtain all but a few event Legendaries natively in Gen 6.

(And, of course, do I even need to get into how the Blue Pentagon stuff is the most thinly-veiled cash grab ever? In previous Gens, transferred Pokémon were 100% usable and little different from other traded Pokémon. Now, you literally have to buy all of the newest games to get them all.)



Sad, but true. Even a bunch of generic islands are better than a generic battle facility. :rolleyes2:

BTW, I haven't played XY, but I've watched others play them.

GF should've given us at least a more creative BF, like the Pyramid, the Roulette, the Dome, etc. Heck, the PWT would have made more sense (it's mentioned as much as the Frontier)...plus we could have seen Koga for the first time since Gen IV.

It's more fun to play something than watch something most of the time xD.

Anyways the Backpacker says his region is big (I think he said more so than Kalos) so there may be some stuff to do, especially if they pull a Gen V and limit some areas to post game. I just hope they add some story behind the areas unlike what they did with East/Southeast Unova, the Sevii islands, or even Gen II Kanto...I enjoyed getting Kyurem, beating Rocket again, and getting badges but the lack of a good, decent length story made the places blend (out of them Sevii had the most with Lorelei, getting the gems plus fighting Rocket, and learning Gio has a son. East Unova had the least.)

 

[bobandbill]

I'm sceptical that a perceived decrease in story telling is down specifically to a focus on Game Freak doing more for the competitive scene.

I will agree that XY's story was worse to me than BW's. (Not that BWs was the best, but it was certainly a step forward from other games imo!) But I don't think that they sacrificed it just to let people get to the competitive/postgame part of the game quicker at all - if they had, the story would be far reduced, and the time taken to reach the E4 would be also missing. They wouldn't have given an expansion to the ORAS story either (updates to the character designs and personalities, along with that whole Delta episode or the additional Sea Mauville story). They dropped the ball with story in XY imo, but they did a better job across the spectrum in ORAS, certainly compared to the likes of RSE.

Game Freak should keep doing more for those players who enjoy battling online, yes, but I don't at all agree that the casual players, or people who enjoy the main adventure part are being particularly hurt by this. Points like the exp share mechanics making the game easier? It's easily turned off as soon as you get it. The primarily target of the games remains the younger audience as well. And let's not forget that there are decisions showing that the competitive scene is not the main focus of Game Freak - look no further than the missing Battle Frontier in ORAS. They could have ditched time spent on making contests look so fancy or the side stories/characters/non-competitive features introduced to make time for that, after all.

 

[Cerberus87]

I'm sceptical that a perceived decrease in story telling is down specifically to a focus on Game Freak doing more for the competitive scene.

I will agree that XY's story was worse to me than BW's. (Not that BWs was the best, but it was certainly a step forward from other games imo!) But I don't think that they sacrificed it just to let people get to the competitive/postgame part of the game quicker at all - if they had, the story would be far reduced, and the time taken to reach the E4 would be also missing. They wouldn't have given an expansion to the ORAS story either (updates to the character designs and personalities, along with that whole Delta episode or the additional Sea Mauville story). They dropped the ball with story in XY imo, but they did a better job across the spectrum in ORAS, certainly compared to the likes of RSE.

Game Freak should keep doing more for those players who enjoy battling online, yes, but I don't at all agree that the casual players, or people who enjoy the main adventure part are being particularly hurt by this. Points like the exp share mechanics making the game easier? It's easily turned off as soon as you get it. The primarily target of the games remains the younger audience as well. And let's not forget that there are decisions showing that the competitive scene is not the main focus of Game Freak - look no further than the missing Battle Frontier in ORAS. They could have ditched time spent on making contests look so fancy or the side stories/characters/non-competitive features introduced to make time for that, after all.

I take average 25-30 hours to beat the story in Pokémon games. In X I took the same despite using the Exp. Share.

Delta Episode shows they care about story-driven events. It may not have been the best quality, but it was a full extra story chapter. DPPt also had story mini-quests after the League. Comparable to GSC, which is a little bit overrated anyway since the only thing besides badge hunting was a lame Rocket quest.

The biggest appeal of GSC's post-credits story was to see how everything was in Kanto after three years, but event-wise it was kinda weak. It had no discernible story arc besides collecting the Kanto badges. DPPt and ORAS did. You can do the Kanto quest in GSC in a couple hours, since the gyms are weak and Kanto is a scaled down version of the one in RBY (less land to walk on).

 

[BettyNewbie]

GF should've given us at least a more creative BF, like the Pyramid, the Roulette, the Dome, etc. Heck, the PWT would have made more sense (it's mentioned as much as the Frontier)...plus we could have seen Koga for the first time since Gen IV.

As I said, the standard for remakes seems to be for them to get whatever battle facility the main games have. HGSS got Platinum's Battle Frontier instead of Crystal's Battle Tower, and similarly, ORAS got XY's Battle Maison instead of Emerald's Battle Frontier. (FRLG probably would've also gotten Emerald's Battle Frontier if they had not been released before Emerald.) Future Gen 1 remakes will probably get Gen 7's facility instead of FRLG's Trainer Tower, and Gen 4 remakes will get Gen 8's facility instead of Platinum's Battle Frontier.

It's more fun to play something than watch something most of the time xD.

I enjoyed getting Kyurem, beating Rocket again, and getting badges but the lack of a good, decent length story made the places blend (out of them Sevii had the most with Lorelei, getting the gems plus fighting Rocket, and learning Gio has a son. East Unova had the least.)

I disagree about Sevii's story being strong. The Lorelei "story" served no purpose than to get rid of her and pave the way for the Psychic Clown in HGSS. We learned nothing about her as a person, and she was never seen or heard from again, anyways. (The bar for E4 characterization is low, I admit, but that's still pretty bad.) And, those fetch quests were just tedious and not fun at all. Give me Gen 2's badge rush any day.

Comparable to GSC, which is a little bit overrated anyway since the only thing besides badge hunting was a lame Rocket quest.

The biggest appeal of GSC's post-credits story was to see how everything was in Kanto after three years, but event-wise it was kinda weak. It had no discernible story arc besides collecting the Kanto badges. DPPt and ORAS did. You can do the Kanto quest in GSC in a couple hours, since the gyms are weak and Kanto is a scaled down version of the one in RBY (less land to walk on).

Just seeing how Kanto and its characters changed in over the course of three years was more than enough for me. No, it wasn't the deepest thing in the world, but not everything needs to go into full detail about the Pokéverse's lore and worldbuilding. (In fact, I'd prefer they not, especially if Gen 6 is the end result.)

 

[mew_nani]

Just seeing how Kanto and its characters changed in over the course of three years was more than enough for me. No, it wasn't the deepest thing in the world, but not everything needs to go into full detail about the Pokéverse's lore and worldbuilding. (In fact, I'd prefer they not, especially if Gen 6 is the end result.)

Gen VI's worldbuilding attempts weren't a disaster because they had too much of it. The major problem came from them having a giant region and not having nearly enough detail for all of it. Compare Johto: when we go to a town, there's usually a landmark that gets talked about and it gives the town some depth. Violet City had Sprout Tower, Olivine had the Lighthouse, and Ecruteak had the Tin Tower and Burned Tower, which made each town different and memorable. Even locations that weren't attached to a town like the Ruins of Alph and Lake of Rage had people there talking about them and researching what was going on there. There were puzzles to solve and Pokemon to catch and it felt like you were exploring, not just going from point A to point B.

Going back to Kalos again, there's none of these qualities. Towns look cookie cutter with no distinguishing landmarks or places to explore, and even with the numerous unusual places like the Anistar Sundial or Parfum Palace there's no explanation for what they are, why they're there, and nothing really happens in them. There's no Pokemon to find or puzzle to solve. They're just... there. That's not really worldbuilding; it's just putting random things there in a desperate attempt to make each town stand out because without them you wouldn't even remember the names or locations. It doesn't help that you're rushed through each place, not given any time to really explore each landmark.

If the lore behind Kalos was put first and foremost and the game was slowed down to the pace of your regular Final Fantasy game it might have been a better experience over all. Final Fantasy isn't about whizzing all over the place; you stay put in one spot for a moderate length of time before you're allowed to move forward, and the slower pace would have suit Kalos a lot better than the scrunched up experience we got. It would have also helped if the journey between towns was longer. If you're going for a RPG experience you gotta have long routes; the game suffers for it if you don't.

Basically Gen VI suffers from a critical lack of worldbuilding; not the other way around.