Suicide

[Rogue planet]

Do you own a television? A Nintendo DS? Or even more than one set of clothes? You could've given that money to someone who really needed it, someone who couldn't afford to pay for shelter or food. But no, you decided to buy something for your own entertainment. Is that really selfish? I'd just say it's human nature.

And when someone is so miserable that they really don't see a purpose to their life anymore, are they selfish for wanting to end their own life? Their life belongs to them, they can do what they want with it, why does anyone think they have the right to tell someone what to do with their own life? I don't think it's selfish to kill yourself. The people that say those that are suicidal should continue to endure their misery seem more selfish to me. You're telling someone to spend each hour of every day in a miserable state of mind, just so it won't be hurtful to those that care about them (that's assuming there actually is someone that cares about them) to be honest I think the torture of spending every day in a miserable and suicidal state of mind is worse than the pain of losing someone you care about. Trying to force somebody to live when they don't want to, condemning them when they do end their own life, that is selfish.

I've never been suicidal and nobody I know has ever committed suicide.

 

[Åzurε]

How is it selfish if you can't control it?

A person can control his own mind. It's not easy, but it can be done, and saying that you can't just kills hope.

I'll reiterate: Feelings lie.

Do you own a television? A Nintendo DS? Or even more than one set of clothes? You could've given that money to someone who really needed it, someone who couldn't afford to pay for shelter or food. But no, you decided to buy something for your own entertainment. Is that really selfish? I'd just say it's human nature.

Selfishness is human nature. I'm as guilty as any other person of that. It doesn't mean it can't be changed.

And when someone is so miserable that they really don't see a purpose to their life anymore, are they selfish for wanting to end their own life? Their life belongs to them, they can do what they want with it, why does anyone think they have the right to tell someone what to do with their own life? I don't think it's selfish to kill yourself. The people that say those that are suicidal should continue to endure their misery seem more selfish to me. You're telling someone to spend each hour of every day in a miserable state of mind, just so it won't be hurtful to those that care about them (that's assuming there actually is someone that cares about them) to be honest I think the torture of spending every day in a miserable and suicidal state of mind is worse than the pain of losing someone you care about.

I agree that forcing a person to live is wrong. That's why you don't force them. People are resourceful, and they would probably find a way to die, even if it's just choking themselves. However, if they still live without you tying them down, there's something in their head telling them to live, isn't there?

Killing yourself without regard for the impact on others is selfish, I don't see any other way to slice it. How could causing this much pain to other people be worth you making yourself die? You could say that making them endure is selfish, but if it gets better (and it does), they come out alive.

Show me someone who has nobody who cares for them.

Trying to force somebody to live when they don't want to, condemning them when they do end their own life, that is selfish.

Who's condemning? It's a selfish act. This is what suicide is at it's core. A way out of the situation you're in. It's not condemnation of a person. It's the nature of an action.

I'm not putting down all suicidal people as selfish. I'm saying the action is, and the mindset that comes with the action is. Many people won't see that, and that's fine with me. It's not going to be particularly helpful to tell someone that if they're already thinking of making themselves die, in any case.

 

[Rogue planet]

I agree that forcing a person to live is wrong. That's why you don't force them. People are resourceful, and they would probably find a way to die, even if it's just choking themselves. However, if they still live without you tying them down, there's something in their head telling them to live, isn't there?

That's the whole point, I'm not talking about people who have felt suicidal before, I'm talking about people who have committed suicide. Those people that don't still live "without being tied down" are the people I am referring to.

Killing yourself without regard for the impact on others is selfish, I don't see any other way to slice it. How could causing this much pain to other people be worth you making yourself die? You could say that making them endure is selfish, but if it gets better (and it does), they come out alive.

How could continuing with so much pain every day be worth living for? What about those people in situations where it doesn't get better. They do exist. Not everything can improve with time. If there are people who care about the person that commits suicide, their pain will get better with time aswell. I know if someone I cared about committed suicide, yes it would be incredibly painful, but I'd support their decision, because it's their decision to make. It is not my place to tell someone what to do with their own life, just to spare myself the pain of losing them.
Although a lot of people that do kill themselves do so when they're are in a situation where nobody really cares about them, or they at least feel that nobody does.

Show me someone who has nobody who cares for them.

Huh, what. I don't know anyone personally, I don't know everyone in the world. Obviously there are people out there who have nobody that cares for them, saying they don't exist is just ignorant.

 

[Tinhead Bruce]

For gosh sakes, I stand by my opinion that we should let those who are suicidal commit suicide. Those who actually do are just helping humans as a species by eliminating negative traits, provided they don't reproduce. Aren't we better without those who would commit suicide? I think so. Natural selection is nature's finest remedy to negative traits.

What makes you decide who has a better conscience? You said you'd let someone die and not try to stop them. I don't know whether that's a very nice thing. :(

And what makes you decide? You're the one who said I didn't have a conscience.

"the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action." That's the definition of conscience as provided by Dictionary.com. And sweetheart, it really doesn't matter if you think that's a very nice thing. We can never prove that one of us has a better conscience. In fact, we each think that our conscience is perfect, otherwise it really wouldn't be our conscience, now would it?

 

[Beechlgz]

Can you honestly make that judgement?

It isn't just about yourself - indeed a common thought is "the world would be better without me". It's not selfishness, it's an all encompassing hopelessness that takes complete control. It does narrow one's view of the world, but not in a selfish way - I thought a lot about my family during my suicidal periods. It feels the weight of the hopelessness and despair is far greater than that of the love from your friends and family - all this emotion is so intense it's impossible to control. It eventually gets better but when you hit that low, it feels like infinite meaninglessness.

How is it selfish if you can't control it?

I can pass that judgment on one person only (myself). In other cases, I would not pass judgment even if they were being selfish - as in, I would not look down upon them for it.

Though I agree entirely with what you have to say. It seems in this case, we are using two different ways to describe roughly the same thing. What you describe is not what I would call selfish but there is aspects of selfishness in there if we are using selfish as a broad term, however, I would not judge anyone for feeling that way.

But I think I understand now, seeing what you've written, why people do not want to use the word selfish for it - everyone's experience of suicide is different and there truly may not be a prominent selfish side of it in some cases, and on top of that "selfish" has negative connotations. In my opinion, selfishness could be bad, but it can be good too. Sometimes it's possible to be too selfless, for example. I just see it as a neutral word.

But selfishness (if you remove your negative feelings about the word) is an aspect of many cases of suicide.

 

[Richard Lynch]

This has always been an interesting debate, because it's incredibly two sided:

One one side, someone who commits suicide is selfish because they take themselves away from people they love. But on the other side (the side that hardly anyone brings up), aren't people who preach against suicide because they don't want their loved ones to die also somewhat selfish? I personally think saying that you can't commit suicide because it will hurt your loves ones is also quite selfish.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with suicide, but I don't agree with the reasons some people say, such as saying its selfish. It's like negative reinforcement in psychology, it doesn't work too well.

I think what we ought to do to help prevent suicide is to try and show people how fun life can be. I learned early on that life is a cruel thing, and per capita there's more bad than good in the world. But for anyone who has sat down and enjoyed a good meal, or bottle of wine, or immersed yourself with a book or a movie, you have seen the "simple" good things in life (and I mean, "simple" enjoyments being ones that are, in a way, selfish - good for you, and don't necessarily help others in any way, but they also don't hurt others!). Life is full of these simply pleasures, and in a bleak world, that's sometimes all you need.

Now, depression is a mental illness. It affects you psychologically and physiologically. But it can be treated. Some people don't even know they have it. Oftentimes, people who try to commit suicide aren't "really" looking for death, but moreso they're looking for attention. They just happened to pick a very risky route to get it.

Early diagnosis is critical for serious depression, in my opinion.

 

[Graceful]

Okay My Uncle Died After Commiting Suicide. For That - I Hate Him. But I Also Love Him. (RIP : Andrew Wells v-v)
I Think that If ~ "If A Souldier Is Fighting In Battle And Is So Suddenly In Pain (Physically Or Mentally) Isn't It Right To Die Than To Live With that, Never Being Able To Forgive Yourself And Never Being Able To Take Away the Pain - But, If They Die, That Means That The Pain Is Lifted And You Maybe Able To Forgive Yourself Eventually."

Call Me Whatever You Want, This Is My Opinion On The Subject!....And My Speech!

 

[Weatherman Kiyoshi]

Understandable. But what if that person is so depressed, they don't see that that one person loves them? Depression is a very serious thing and isn't something that can be cured by someone saying they love that depressed person.

I don't like the idea of suicide and I hate it more now because my best mate took his life, but I still don't think it is selfish; regardless of the situation.

I don't think anyone can truly comment on it, unless they have tried to take their own life :/

Depression can make someone blind to everyone- which I suppose makes everyone around them view them as "selfish".
Depression is an awful condition, which can't be reasoned with.

I truly feel sorry for your friend as well as yourself, and I'm sure for whatever reasons your friend commited suicide, they aren't as selfish as percieved by some people.

 

[hiphiphippo]

-has not read every post yet-

some people have good reasons for suicide, but either way it causes pain and guilt for others

of course, people who care about the person will be sad and stuff
-^as blinded as someone may be, (s)he should know that there is at least one person who cares about him/her
--^but i guess some suicidal people don't care about that anymore?

and also, people who arent that close may still feel guilty for they sometimes feel as if they caused it or they could've prevented it

sometimes, someone just has to do something about the situation for a suicidal person to snap out of it.
like this girl i know attempted suicide, but her mom who originally didnt really care saved her and eventually she came out of depression
-bad story teller-

also, people who commit suicide should make something good out of the situation like donating organs?...

 

[ANARCHit3cht]

... and also, people who arent that close may still feel guilty for they sometimes feel as if they caused it or they could've prevented it.

This is very true. On... Friday, this guy tried to kill himself on our school bus. Nobody did anything, and now I wonder what actually happened to him :/

 

[Spinor]

For gosh sakes, I stand by my opinion that we should let those who are suicidal commit suicide. Those who actually do are just helping humans as a species by eliminating negative traits, provided they don't reproduce. Aren't we better without those who would commit suicide? I think so. Natural selection is nature's finest remedy to negative traits.

Oh yeah, that's what I sort of meant when I said some suicidal people don't deserve to live. :\ Well putting it Darwin's way is also good.

And looking at this page, just wanted to say the Selfish suicide argument is only justified if the person knows they have people that loves them.

So pretty much suicide is either selfish or natural selection.

 

[Ho-Oh]

And what makes you decide? You're the one who said I didn't have a conscience.

"the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action." That's the definition of conscience as provided by Dictionary.com. And sweetheart, it really doesn't matter if you think that's a very nice thing. We can never prove that one of us has a better conscience. In fact, we each think that our conscience is perfect, otherwise it really wouldn't be our conscience, now would it?

Right or wrong...

Letting someone kill themselves isn't right, if the sense of "right" which is that good prevails. If they die, isn't that the bad side of the world winning? In other words the negatives of the world having overcome them, causing them to make such a decision. That can't be right.

I don't think there is a perfect conscience though. Everyone has different views, so... if someone thinks their own conscience is perfect, then they are most likely stuck up.

Aaand I didn't say you didn't have a consience.

"There will be guilt there otherwise you don't have a conscience."

You as in the overall sense, not YOU in particular.

 

[Master Jecht]

I see nothing wrong with it. It is their life to live. If they choose to live it or end it it is their business. We all die eventually.

 

[Dawn]

Oh yeah, that's what I sort of meant when I said some suicidal people don't deserve to live. :\ Well putting it Darwin's way is also good.

And looking at this page, just wanted to say the Selfish suicide argument is only justified if the person knows they have people that loves them.

So pretty much suicide is either selfish or natural selection.

For gosh sakes, I stand by my opinion that we should let those who are suicidal commit suicide. Those who actually do are just helping humans as a species by eliminating negative traits, provided they don't reproduce. Aren't we better without those who would commit suicide? I think so. Natural selection is nature's finest remedy to negative traits.

Natural Selection is flawed the way you're looking at it.
Here's one flaw that is apparent and relevant to this particular argument.

The theory can't even apply, until they actually commit suicide. Depression is not natural selection. No way. Depression or Suicidals can go either way. I'd know, I was both and survived just fine. If you assume depression and suicidals = Natural Selection you've taken a step way over the line between a theory that is meant to be spectated, not actively influenced, and flat out moral depravity in the form of using a not yet relevant theory to influence people.

Thing about natural selection is it's only meant to justify things that have already happened, un-influenced. Trying to justify things that WILL/MAY happen is... not how it works.

In truth, it's far more likely that by applying Natural Selection to things that shouldn't have it applied to them, you are actually screwing with Natural Selection, which definitely does not need help from humans.

 

[Mad Hatteress]

I don't know why I'm replying... Probably the only time I ever let my feelings out is on forums since no one really knows me and this especially feels good to get out.

Every single day when I wake up I want to die. I fantasize about taking a knife and ramming it repeatedly into the side of my head. However, I'm also a sissy, so I won't do that. If the day ever comes that I'm lucky enough to get a gun, no matter what mood I'm in, I'm pulling the trigger. I tried pills twice but they weren't potent enough and I just slept for a long time.

In all my 21 years not a single good thing has happened to me. My parents got divorced when I was four. I still remember walking out that door and saying "I love you, Daddy" and getting no response.

I have awful genetics. My looks are terrible; I'm androgynous looking and both my parents are morons. The sperm donor thinks happy is spelled "Happi" and my mother is also dumb as a box of rocks and flips burgers for a living. I've never used that as an excuse but I'll never have the intellect I want no matter how hard I try. My memory is practically non existent and I have trouble with a lot of things. I sometimes wonder if I have a mental disability. I'm 21 f*cking years old and don't even have a driver's license.

I don't have any friends IRL. I've been betrayed and abused so many times I finally learned my lesson. However, I turn to forums, and that's stupid as well. I still hate excelsagaforum.com for what it did to me. Rape isn't funny and they had no right to exile me for my goddam opinion on an awful comic and keep that moderator. I was there for almost a year, got very attached and finally felt welcome somewhere, and then it was all taken away.

Worst of all is from that site I've become very close with someone I still constantly cam with and I've hurt him multiple times because I'm waiting for the day he'll do it to me. Still he sticks by me and it's too much; I don't deserve someone like that.

Every instinct I have now tells me to make others hurt because they hurt you or to hurt others because it makes you feel good. I think about how nice it would be to kill all those that I hate and I've nearly thrown a glass at woman's head at work because no matter how awful she is they won't fire her. I work so hard and she is just plain lazy and talks to people every chance she gets instead of working. I hope every night she'll die in an accident.

Is it really selfish that someone like me wants to commit suicide to end both my own pain and to save others from a monster like me? No. I used to be scared in regards to what happens when you die, especially when I realized that there's no God or Heaven, but I don't care anymore. I hope when you die that's it. That souls don't go anywhere.

 

[Rogue planet]

I don't know why I'm replying... Probably the only time I ever let my feelings out is on forums since no one really knows me and this especially feels good to get out.

Every single day when I wake up I want to die. I fantasize about taking a knife and ramming it repeatedly into the side of my head. However, I'm also a sissy, so I won't do that. If the day ever comes that I'm lucky enough to get a gun, no matter what mood I'm in, I'm pulling the trigger. I tried pills twice but they weren't potent enough and I just slept for a long time.

In all my 21 years not a single good thing has happened to me. My parents got divorced when I was four. I still remember walking out that door and saying "I love you, Daddy" and getting no response.

I have awful genetics. My looks are terrible; I'm androgynous looking and both my parents are morons. The sperm donor thinks happy is spelled "Happi" and my mother is also dumb as a box of rocks and flips burgers for a living. I've never used that as an excuse but I'll never have the intellect I want no matter how hard I try. My memory is practically non existent and I have trouble with a lot of things. I sometimes wonder if I have a mental disability. I'm 21 f*cking years old and don't even have a driver's license.

I don't have any friends IRL. I've been betrayed and abused so many times I finally learned my lesson. However, I turn to forums, and that's stupid as well. I still hate excelsagaforum.com for what it did to me. Rape isn't funny and they had no right to exile me for my goddam opinion on an awful comic and keep that moderator. I was there for almost a year, got very attached and finally felt welcome somewhere, and then it was all taken away.

Worst of all is from that site I've become very close with someone I still constantly cam with and I've hurt him multiple times because I'm waiting for the day he'll do it to me. Still he sticks by me and it's too much; I don't deserve someone like that.

Every instinct I have now tells me to make others hurt because they hurt you or to hurt others because it makes you feel good. I think about how nice it would be to kill all those that I hate and I've nearly thrown a glass at woman's head at work because no matter how awful she is they won't fire her. I work so hard and she is just plain lazy and talks to people every chance she gets instead of working. I hope every night she'll die in an accident.

Is it really selfish that someone like me wants to commit suicide to end both my own pain and to save others from a monster like me? No. I used to be scared in regards to what happens when you die, especially when I realized that there's no God or Heaven, but I don't care anymore. I hope when you die that's it. That souls don't go anywhere.

To those who say suicide is selfish and don't show any form of respect to it, not everyone that is suicidal thinks the same way as the post I quoted. Although if they did your arguments would be quite valid.
People like this turn suicide into something ridiculous.

 

[Mad Hatteress]

To those who say suicide is selfish and don't show any form of respect to it, not everyone that is suicidal thinks the same way as the post I quoted. Although if they did your arguments would be quite valid.
People like this turn suicide into something ridiculous.

You are an a**hole. Who are you to think you have any right to judge me?

Oh, but you're SIXTEEN years old. You obviously know everything and how the world works. Tell me, O second coming of Christ, what do the rational, non-ridiculous thoughts of suicidal person look like? Hmm?

 

[Rogue planet]

You are an a**hole. Who are you to think you have any right to judge me?

Your post right there gives all the information I need.

Oh, but you're SIXTEEN years old. You obviously know everything and how the world works.

I didn't claim to know everything. Also please do not try and use my age against me in an argument, knowledge, maturity and life experiences are not determined by age.

Tell me, O second coming of Christ, what do the rational, non-ridiculous thoughts of suicidal person look like? Hmm?

I won't go into my own personal encounters with the subject, but the things you put in your post just seem to be complaining about everyday issues, they don't really compare to the problems other people face when considering suicide. Your general attitude just comes across as whiney, rather than actual torment.

 

[Mad Hatteress]

Your post right there gives all the information I need.

Than I guess you need to learn how to read.

I didn't claim to know everything. Also please do not try and use my age against me in an argument, knowledge, maturity and life experiences are not determined by age.

You're right, sorry. You lack knowledge, maturity, and life experience.

I won't go into my own personal encounters with the subject,

Because you have none.

but the things you put in your post just seem to be complaining about everyday issues, they don't really compare to the problems other people face when considering suicide. Your general attitude just comes across as whiney, rather than actual torment.

Oh yes, the fact that I was almost raped, never had a single friend I could count on, have accomplished nothing noteworthy, I'm probably not going to finish college, have a job that depresses me, I've never done anything but cause pain to those I know, is all really whiny.

....Thanks, I was in a bad enough mood. Slitting my wrists has always been a scary idea, but I think you just gave me the courage, plus I wont' have to deal with this anymore. Thanks! I hope I do die this time!

 

[Richard Lynch]

Oh, c'mon, let's not be immature - the both of you!

I think anyone who feels tormented or depressed needs to remember one thing:

Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life!

:)