Suicide

[Morkula]

I know this is a touchy subject, guys, but please try to keep your emotions and tempers under control. I don't want to be handing out any more infractions in this thread.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

This is exactly what went through my mind when I loaded myself with pills over a year ago:

"Jesus Christ. What have I done? Everything is falling apart around me. I feel hollow - I feel like everyone hates me. Whenever I try to do something it always backfires and hurts others. There's something wrong with me - something that makes me unconsciously hate everyone and everything around me, and it's making me destroy everything around me. What's the point?"

Of course, everyone is unique, as are such experiences, but anyone who feels that those who are suicidal are "selfish" or "petty" have obviously never found themselves in that situation. It isn't about thinking about oneself - it's an all-encompassing blight that takes all joy and colour and freedom and hope from your existence. Everything shuts down, everything just spirals more and more downward, biting through your flesh like a mad dog.

I don't think that people should be allowed to just kill themselves though. It's not because its wrong, but it's because their vision becomes so narrow due to their despair they have no idea how things could improve. With hope absent, there's no point in living. Someone who wants to commit suicide should not be looked down upon as someone with some kind of "kook disorder" or someone who's "petty", but rather as someone who needs emotional strength for them to rise again.

Of course, there exist people who just do it because "Boo hoo Johnny broke up with me". Admittedly a breakup is probably emotional, but not so much that it tears your life right open. People who pull that **** have no idea what it feels like to really be depressed - it comes from a succession of failures, horrible experiences or events provoking hopelessness that make those thoughts come to mind.

Now it's quote time.

Mental disorder I understand, but just having a mindset of "I want to kill myself"? I can't comprehend that. Would you mind giving me an example, please?

Most suicides arise from situations of immense turmoil, such as losing a job, being taken out of your house or losing another important part of your life. Everyone is different and thus have different triggers, but when it triggers, that person can fall into a despair so intense it is incomprehensible. As I said, it's all encompassing. It's not just something that you are reminded of every now and then that makes you a bit blue - every aspect of your life becomes shrouded in it. With me, it is when I lost my hope in when everything could get better when I wanted to die. Of course, I now know that things can get better, that hope isn't an empty purpose. But when one falls into that stage, it feels like everything is a lie.

There's always another option. The quality of that option may vary, but there's always an option, and the vast, vast majority of the time it's preferable to live.

That's true, but you're forgetting that people in such a depressed state usually don't see everything the way that others do. That's one of the horrible parts of depression - in reality it's self-crippling and can be cured by oneself, but without hope it feels it will last forever.

I agree completely. There are other alternatives. I especially think teen suicide is selfish. You're going to get out of school eventually, suck it up. It also must devastate the parents who have had to go through the suicidal death of their child.

Do you honestly believe that's the only reason why teenagers commit suicide? Usually school is a trigger - it's usually a cascade of events that gets worse and worse, and grades may be the last straw - similar to how some people may "snap" when consistently provoked.

It would be stupid to suicide because of a break-up. But if its something that has happened that was too horrible to heal from, (extreme: abuse, rape, etc.), then it would be understandable for me. Some kids go suicidal when they aren't raised properly, and then its not really they're fault.

Exactly, but everyone is different. Usually a constant form of stress that makes someone depressed can do that - it doesn't have to be as severe as the kinds you listed though. A constant reign of failure over years and years can often cause people, including myself, to become suicidal.

Understandable; and I agree fully.
But from my friends and personal experience of this, the actual suicidal people who have no option because of a mental disorder/frame of mind is different from the attention seeking percent.

True. I cannot deny that there are people who do it to receive attention, which is despicable, considering that I suffer from depression myself. It's important you bring up mental disorder/frame of mind, however. The majority of suicides are from this. Almost all suicides after the age of 18, I will bet, are due to a combination of severe losses, such as losing a job and foreclosure, that seem so horrible there is no way to escape.

 

[Captain Fabio]

This is exactly what went through my mind when I loaded myself with pills over a year ago:

"Jesus Christ. What have I done? Everything is falling apart around me. I feel hollow - I feel like everyone hates me. Whenever I try to do something it always backfires and hurts others. There's something wrong with me - something that makes me unconsciously hate everyone and everything around me, and it's making me destroy everything around me. What's the point?"

Of course, everyone is unique, as are such experiences, but anyone who feels that those who are suicidal are "selfish" or "petty" have obviously never found themselves in that situation. It isn't about thinking about oneself - it's an all-encompassing blight that takes all joy and colour and freedom and hope from your existence. Everything shuts down, everything just spirals more and more downward, biting through your flesh like a mad dog.

I don't think that people should be allowed to just kill themselves though. It's not because its wrong, but it's because their vision becomes so narrow due to their despair they have no idea how things could improve. With hope absent, there's no point in living. Someone who wants to commit suicide should not be looked down upon as someone with some kind of "kook disorder" or someone who's "petty", but rather as someone who needs emotional strength for them to rise again.

Now it's quote time.


Most suicides arise from situations of immense turmoil, such as losing a job, being taken out of your house or losing another important part of your life. Everyone is different and thus have different triggers, but when it triggers, that person can fall into a despair so intense it is incomprehensible. As I said, it's all encompassing. It's not just something that you are reminded of every now and then that makes you a bit blue - every aspect of your life becomes shrouded in it. With me, it is when I lost my hope in when everything could get better when I wanted to die. Of course, I now know that things can get better, that hope isn't an empty purpose. But when one falls into that stage, it feels like everything is a lie.


That's true, but you're forgetting that people in such a depressed state usually don't see everything the way that others do. That's one of the horrible parts of depression - in reality it's self-crippling and can be cured by oneself, but without hope it feels it will last forever.

First off, I am sorry you have been in that situation before. I would never wish that on anyone. Not a single person.

This is what I have been trying to put across. No one has experienced this feeling of pure depression and hopelessness; I haven't, but from the letter my friend left me, he had.

I will stop there because I feel I am being too heated in my discussion and I feel too strongly for some people to understand.

 

[Dawn]

I know that from your side of the fence that must seem obvious to consult your religion. But what about the people who aren't religious, or even those who are contemplating suicide because they think they will be better off going to heaven.

Honestly? I don't know. There's a reason they call aetheism a "rewardless" religion. I honestly have no answer for those without religion. I simply don't know the answer. There could be one, but I definitely don't know it nor is it obvious to me. Without religion I would never have been able to recover from that state of depression. It would've lingered with me the rest of my life at best.

As for the latter. They need to be told the truth, that generally suicide will get you sent to... the other place. It makes sense really, life is a test god put on us, and if we take it that far trying to quit, well... Let's just say we won't be forced.

First off, I am sorry you have been in that situation before. I would never wish that on anyone. Not a single person.

This is what I have been trying to put across. No one has experienced this feeling of pure depression and hopelessness; I haven't, but from the letter my friend left me, he had.

I will stop there because I feel I am being too heated in my discussion and I feel too strongly for some people to understand.

It's alright. I wouldn't either. I suppose there comes a time after one has made one's point that they must depart.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

First off, I am sorry you have been in that situation before. I would never wish that on anyone. Not a single person.

This is what I have been trying to put across. No one has experienced this feeling of pure depression and hopelessness; I haven't, but from the letter my friend left me, he had.

I will stop there because I feel I am being too heated in my discussion and I feel too strongly for some people to understand.

I agree with most of what you're saying, actually. Most people don't know what it's like though and are too quick to make judgments. You did catch me while editing, though, so I'll reemphasize an important point:

Of course, there exist people who just do it because "Boo hoo Johnny broke up with me". Admittedly a breakup is probably emotional, but not so much that it tears your life right open. People who pull that **** have no idea what it feels like to really be depressed - it comes from a succession of failures, horrible experiences or events provoking hopelessness that make those thoughts come to mind.

 

[Captain Fabio]

I agree with most of what you're saying, actually. Most people don't know what it's like though and are too quick to make judgments. You did catch me while editing, though, so I'll reemphasize an important point:

And I agree with that last quote that you said. I said before that people who 'attention seek' because they are feeling 'suicidal' is no way near that, unfortunately, some people have to suffer through.

 

[Esper]

I was going to say a lot more, but Corvidae covered quite a lot so I won't go into too much.

I attempted suicide. Was I constantly thinking about myself? Hell yes. Was I only thinking about myself? Hell no.

I was thinking about a million things: people who had hurt me and hated me, people who had helped me and loved me. I thought about my future and what I imaged it would be like. Would there be more people out to hurt me or more out to help me? Would I cause more harm or good in the future? In my mind I was something awful that happened to the world and I didn't want to hurt others (or be hurt either) so in my mind I was even trying to help other people. Hardly selfish if you ask me, even if I also wanted the suffering to stop. Please stop all this "selfish" talk.

And that's all I really feel like going into.

 

[Aureol]

I was going to say a lot more, but Corvidae covered quite a lot so I won't go into too much.

I attempted suicide. Was I constantly thinking about myself? Hell yes. Was I only thinking about myself? Hell no.

I was thinking about a million things: people who had hurt me and hated me, people who had helped me and loved me. I thought about my future and what I imaged it would be like. Would there be more people out to hurt me or more out to help me? Would I cause more harm or good in the future? In my mind I was something awful that happened to the world and I didn't want to hurt others (or be hurt either) so in my mind I was even trying to help other people. Hardly selfish if you ask me, even if I also wanted the suffering to stop. Please stop all this "selfish" talk.

And that's all I really feel like going into.

That covers pretty much what I went through, except I never got to the point of actually attempting it. I won't pretend to know how you feel, but I feel horrible for you as well.

Suicide people rarely commit for selfish reasons. If someone was selfish and this drastic, s/he doesn't feel the need to kill him- or herself: instead, s/he would try and improve the situation through whatever means necessary, no matter how much pain it could bring to others. In cases of suicide however, you feel that you are so worthless that you only bring pain to others. In the scenarios where you want to die for nothing more than an end to suffering, well, it's quite the victim there, so I don't think their "selfishness" is uncalled for.

Suicide's a horrible thing that nobody deserves to go through. That's why, having gone through it to a very small extent myself, I refuse to think that others are being crybabies or something. It takes a lot of suffering to be pushed to this point, whether the suffering is very real, or it's all a misunderstanding.

 

[Åzurε]

Suicide people rarely commit for selfish reasons. If someone was selfish and this drastic, s/he doesn't feel the need to kill him- or herself: instead, s/he would try and improve the situation through whatever means necessary, no matter how much pain it could bring to others.

The mentality I see most often is, "Life is too much to live through, so I'm quitting now". It's the ultimate form of selfishness. I think I can't make it, so I'm going to kill myself. How is that not a selfish suicide?

In cases of suicide however, you feel that you are so worthless that you only bring pain to others. In the scenarios where you want to die for nothing more than an end to suffering, well, it's quite the victim there, so I don't think their "selfishness" is uncalled for.

It's selfish, whether one realizes it or not, to think that killing yourself would be better for everybody. Who loves you the most? Would you want to cause them that kind of pain? Is sparing that one person, and anyone else who cares for you enough reason to keep going, or is it not?
I cannot claim to know precisely what a given individual feels, but I would like to say this:

Feelings lie.

It's an often-overlooked truth these days, and it's especially hard to get people who are in that frame of mind to understand. Feeling worthless does not mean you're worthless, and even feeling depressed really doesn't mean much. It's a lie. It shares traits with getting a high. It feels good, but it's fake, and it's temporary. The only thing that matters is whether you act on it. Going through with your urges only causes pain to people who care about you, and even those people who may hate you.

 

[Guillermo]

How is suicide a selfish act? Come on, seriously. You've got to put yourself before others. That's life. If someone really wants to end their life, then considering that person selfish because someone can't deal with their decision is a bit rude. You've got no right to justify why that person did what they did, and you've got no right to call them selfish over it.

Just because someone apparently cares about you doesn't outweigh all the other crap that can be going on in their life. Wow, you might be sad if they die, but you're being selfish yourself to call them selfish for not thinking about you.

Not supporting suicide, I think it's a silly way to solve your issues, but.

 

[Droidz]

About 1 Month ago I think it was, a Priest came to my school to talk to us and he told us a story about a man that tried to kill himself.

A 20 year old man called up this Priest in the middle of the night(Sorry can't remember the Priests name), and said 'I'm going to kill myself right now!' and the priest said 'Okay can you tell me where you live I want to come and talk to you.

So he went to go see this man and when he got there, the man expected the Priest to talk him out of it, but he didn't. Instead the Priest helped him get ready to hang himself until right up to the part where he was about to die and he said 'Before you do this i just want to give you a hug'. The man looked at him and started to cry. He told him why he was going to kill himself and said 'In my entire life I've never ever been loved before'. (This man also had a rough childhood, he only had his mother)

So the man got down and talked to the Priest and started re-thinking his life. That man now works for a major International company and earns alot of money too.

Sorry if my Grammer sucks =\. Anyway i really like that story it shows how by just a small act of kindness to one person can change them completely. Suicide shoudln't be considered by anyone, with a little bit of help you can bring yourself back up, no matter what your situation is.

 

[loliwin]

like rly, why would suicide be selfish? It's kinda like your bff suicided and you called them selfish. :O

lol I could be quoted

 

[txteclipse]

How is suicide a selfish act? Come on, seriously.

You've got to put yourself before others. That's life.

Is anyone else seeing the irony here?

Anyway, I don't think suicide is as clear cut as some of you guys are making it. I personally think it's selfish, but some people just don't consider effect they'll have on others. It's not necessarily malicious, they're just so wrapped up in their own problems that they don't think it through very well.

The problem is that committing suicide pretty much creates a disaster that people have to clean up behind you (sometimes literally). Aside from obvious effects like being emotionally crippling to those close to you, it can mentally scar people, rip apart communities, and even create suicide chains. All in all, it's very bad news.

 

[Guillermo]

Is anyone else seeing the irony here?

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I upset you by stating that everyone puts themselves before others?

 

[Beechlgz]

Suicide, with depression being the cause, is selfish. I'm not going to pussy-foot around that one, it is. However, it is others that add a negative connotation to that selfishness. It's a very different kind of selfishness from your usual "I don't care about anyone else but me" selfishness. It's a very strange, dark, disturbing and frightening place to be for the one who is feeling this selfishness.

Selfishness in this context is one of the symptoms that arise from depression. It arises especially when depression gets so deep it starts to affect the very function of your mind. You literally feel like you are on drugs, except they don't make you feel "good" but quite the opposite, and your judgement is severely impaired. No longer can you concentrate on anything, nothing is enjoyable any more, not even your favourite people or things. Everything seems grey and cold. You may begin to feel physical symptoms, such as the feeling your chest is being crushed, or intestinal pain and problems going to the toilet (urinating/defecating too much or too little can make social outings awkward or impossible, grounding you to your home). You could start to feel like everything and everyone is judging and attacking you. You may start to feel inadequate and hopeless because you want to but cannot feel any differently except this constant screaming emotional agony. You begin to feel inadequate and hopeless because people who should be supporting you are losing their patience with you. Like you cannot try hard enough, and just because their attempts to support you don't cure you overnight (and no, it can't be cured overnight) they start telling you you're selfish because quite frankly you are. The pain you feel completely drowns out anybody else's problems - you can't feel anything else! But at the same time, you can't help it. Many don't even see that they are being so selfish because their state of mind is so drastically altered by depression that they feel barely conscious - some don't feel anything at all except a heavy lowness.

Even strong people have trouble supporting their loved ones through this kind of thing and lose their patience. To the one who is going through it, this can be seen as their supporters giving up. Because they feel everyone around them is giving up on them (even if the truth may be that they aren't) they may feel there is no help or cure for them - it's going to be like this forever, no light at the end of the tunnel. Even psychologists and psychiatrists often fail to provide the support they need (in some cases, the help people can get is limited, clinical and sometimes damaging, not warming or supporting at all).

And suddenly, not being around seems like the best solution for everyone. In their altered state of mind, they see their family (if they even have one, bear in mind not everyone does have someone to turn to) are fed up with them and don't want them around, even if this isn't true. They see themselves as incurable. A waste of the very energy they use up. Many suicidal people are very self-hating because they feel like they have failed at life and failed at curing their depression.

That is the best way I can describe that kind of selfishness. I'm not good with words, it doesn't really do the reality justice, and it varies so much between people. But a lot of people I have spoken to who have been there before agree with the gist of that.

It's the kind of selfishness one can't help when it hits, because it's crippling. It's not self-gratifying selfishness, it's destructive and agonizing to go through.

 

[Ray Maverick]

I have to disagree with you. There are many people who don't have anyone to care for them.

Still, I believe that suicide in a critical situation of someone's life's not the only option.

 

[Guillermo]

Actually, you amused me with the discord between those two statements.

I don't quite understand how such a thing could amuse you, really. Stating that suicide isn't a selfish act, and that you need to put yourself before others have no relevance.

 

[Dawn]

How is suicide a selfish act? Come on, seriously. You've got to put yourself before others. That's life. If someone really wants to end their life, then considering that person selfish because someone can't deal with their decision is a bit rude. You've got no right to justify why that person did what they did, and you've got no right to call them selfish over it.

Just because someone apparently cares about you doesn't outweigh all the other crap that can be going on in their life. Wow, you might be sad if they die, but you're being selfish yourself to call them selfish for not thinking about you.

Not supporting suicide, I think it's a silly way to solve your issues, but.

Quoted for logical truth.

The whole it's selfish thing is a bit of a cliche. It was nice the first time it was said, but it lacks in logical integrity. Yet, seems to be popularly believed.

I think some people just don't want to deal with people who are suicidal (Ironically selfish) so they like that sort of answer, even if it is flawed.

The cliche has obviously failed to impact suicide, and obviously lacks a solid logical base. So I think it's about time we dropped it.

 

[Beechlgz]

In the case of depression, suicide is often selfish. Some people when they hit that low point can't help being selfish, their judgement is impaired and they're not in their right mind.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

In the case of depression, suicide is often selfish. Some people when they hit that low point can't help being selfish, their judgement is impaired and they're not in their right mind.

Can you honestly make that judgement?

It isn't just about yourself - indeed a common thought is "the world would be better without me". It's not selfishness, it's an all encompassing hopelessness that takes complete control. It does narrow one's view of the world, but not in a selfish way - I thought a lot about my family during my suicidal periods. It feels the weight of the hopelessness and despair is far greater than that of the love from your friends and family - all this emotion is so intense it's impossible to control. It eventually gets better but when you hit that low, it feels like infinite meaninglessness.

How is it selfish if you can't control it?