Suspects discussion : Round 5

[psychomew2]

Wow, lots of heated arguments going on here O_O. I'm just gunna throw in my 2 cents, I hope I don't say anything dumb. I'm still a bit unformillar with gen 5s meta.

First off, i would be kinda shocked if excadrill or reuniclus got the ban. Don't get me wrong, I know they are very good pokemon. It's just that they have been nominated several times and it's never led to anything. I think I support thunderus being banned. Its really powerfull rain dance support, not to mention it's really good ability. Boton pass I dont find majorly broken. I would think that would just make moves like roar or dragon tail more of a priority competitively.
Dragonite multiscale....I can't say I care that much honestly. It's not without it's counters. Then again, I dont really face it enough to make an appropriate judgement.
Deoxys-s: Is veriety really the main reason he's being nominated? That doesnt seem like enough of a reason to me. I guess it is one of the best hazard set uppers in the game though. I guess i wouldnt be suprised either way.
Volcorona should be ou imo. Its stats are just a little high for uu. It just needs a spinner to help it come in and spam quiver dance to sweep.
I dont think i would mind chomp coming back without sandstorm. Manaphy and tail glow and blaziken and speed boost are still too much of a problem though imo.

So yeah, thats the opinion of a guy who isn't completely on the up and up concerning gen 5 meta. I appologize for anything dumb i said XD.

 

[_Prince_]

Excadrill needs to go. I hope it does this round! This things forces me to carry a gliscor(not really a counter, flinch from RS can swing favour its way) or a fighting priority move to counter it.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Excadrill needs to go. I hope it does this round! This things forces me to carry a gliscor(not really a counter, flinch from RS can swing favour its way) or a fighting priority move to counter it.

Only LO Exca beats Glis and it needs two flinches. Either way, it only has like 2 hard counters (Zong, Glis and Unaware Quagsire...sort of but not really lol) and a few checks like Conk. It is a problem regardless. I didnt used to think it was but yeah its a pain.


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Ok guys its up. These are the most nominated suspects and as thus are the ones that will have their fate decided at the hands of the voters.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3877152&postcount=122

Suspects:
Moves/Abilities: Auto-weather Inducing Abilities, Baton Pass
Pokemon: Thundurus, Excadrill, Deoxys-S, Dragonite, Volcarona

(Also protip: do not baww up my thread from this point on with "smogon sux omg i cant uz anything im leeving" "u guyz ban everyting on dis sit3 !one!!111" 1. your ass will get reported and infracted most likely lol 2. No one cares. Want your opinion on what you can or cannot use ? Get reqs by laddering pretty simple.)

ANYWAY, Reuniclus didn't get though which sucks as i really wanted that gone most of all, but oh well. I hate that it didnt get nommed enough. Id sooner face Excadrill every day of the week rather than Reuniclus, its just that broken. Heck people are complaining about Exca forcing you to use Gliscor, Zong etc but Reuniclus limits you to sp.def Scizor and Jirachi. :\

Discuss.

 

[Vrai]

@d-a: You have become "Sit Azelf" lmao

@Auto-weather abilities: I don't believe any of them are really broken lol. What's the argument here, again? "It limits diversity"? Since when have we been trying to make a "diverse" metagame through bans? I mean yeah no one wants to play the diversity-less hellfest that was post-Platinum but honestly weather presents tons of diversity and really I don't think any of them are broken. You can run weather if you want and you can run no weather if you want. The only time a weather itself would be broken imo is Drizzle with Swift Swim, but we don't have that so we're just fine. no ban

@Baton Pass: When run well, this is nearly impossible to stop because of Espeon and the fact that you literally cannot beat it unless you use Perish Song (inb4 they pass to Mr. Mime) and/or Haze. Roar and friends are beaten through Espeon, and Dragon Tail is blocked with Substitutes powered up from Vaporeon Acid Armors. That, and Stored Power smashes through literally every Pokemon in the game with enough boosts (except Dark-types, but you have HP Fighting/Bug for that). But at the same time... it needs to be played absolutely perfectly well and it's like a playstyle to master rather than something so easy to win with we should just ban it. To me, it's the equivalent of playing an excellent stall player and really you just can't break through unless you crit. In that sense I don't feel that Baton Pass is bannable, I suppose. abstain

@Thundurus: I've never thought this was broken and I still don't. What exactly is broken about it, again? Yeah it's damn good and pretty fast, but.... I think people are just trying to ban things they don't like. no ban

@Excadrill: People do make a hell of an argument and honestly it could very well go either way and I can see and understand the argument for both cases (though this is probably going to be Excadrill's last round up for nomination for removal from OU ;-;). I really don't have an opinion myself if this is broken or not though because I really kinda do agree with both sides... so um yeah abstain

@Deoxys-S: lol not broken. Very good, not broken. People talk about its versatility but it can only run four moves. no ban

@Dragonite: Again, very good, not broken. Why are people just trying to ban things they don't like? What's the issue here again? Seriously, what's the argument for Dragonite being broken? "My team can't handle it"? :( no ban

@Volcarona: ...is an asshat. Volcarona sets up on so many things in the sun that it's not even funny. Bulky waters? Chansey? Bronzong? Scizor? Rotom-W? Heck, Volcarona can even set up on the ex-standard SpD MixTar with Ice Beam and Fire Blast. Honestly I feel that Volcarona is the most broken Pokemon out of any of these, really. It's got the capability to set up on two-thirds+ (generally even 5/6 of most teams) and sweep everything else. There are relatively few checks especially once it gets going and it's a heavy reason why I run Terrakion or Dragonite on every single team. Stealth Rock is an impediment but nothing that a well-built team can't keep off the field, either. Between Espeon, Taunt, and Rapid Spin (the most common Ghost-type iirc, Jellicent, is 100% set-up bait for Volcarona). This is the only Pokemon I would vote to ban if I had voting rights this time around. ban

@Reuniclus: If it really were broken, it would be nominated more than it is imo. Then again everyone could have a random AHA! moment and decide it's broken and ban-worthy like Excadrill, despite the fact that he was voted like 27% ban the last five times he was put up. no ban even if it was up

sooo to summarize:
no ban; weather, thundurus, dragonite, deoxys-s
abstain; excadrill, baton pass
ban; volcarona

 

[champagnepapi]

I need reqs yo.

Auto Weather isn't broken and many versatile teams can be made from auto-reather, such as rain stall, the most potent abusers itself are those which should be banned. No Ban

Baton Pass is one of the worst things in the metagame right now, even when being used against a good player, it's extremely hard to play around. I'm pretty sure that everyone who uses and plays against BP is that it's a very cheap strategy, BP Chains being a worse offender than Smashpass, which is still potent in its own right. Baton Pass is not even hard countered by perish song, with Mr. Mime and Taunt Users running rampant on them, in fact, you basically need to get a plethora of crits or Choice an extremely powerful attacker to even have a chance at breaking their chain. This is easily the worst suspect. Ban it with the passion of an angry scotsman.

Thundurus I'm on the fence about this guy, I mean, he can be revenge killed if you're packing a Chloro/Sand Rush User, Scarfer or Pokemon of a higher speed tier, but the sheer power that Tdawg has is pretty ridic. Obviously, most of you know what it does to Blissey at +2, and Gastrodon/Swampert are shaky counters at best. Tdawg is pretty easy to revenge kill and can usually die from Life Orb/Residual buildup, but the fact that it's hard to counter makes me lean towards a ban. Ban

Excadrill Again, I'm not sure what to do with Excadrill, but I think it's less than a threat of Thundurus. There are obviously some great arguments against it, while on the other hand, people are moaning that it centralizes the metagame and everyone uses Gliscor solely to beat Excadrill. Obviously, this is an awful argument, while it does hard counter Excadrill, it also beats a myriad of threats that Skarmory would have trouble handling, such as Terrakion, Breloom [Spore], Conkeldurr, etc. Excadrill obviously has a profound impact on the metagame, but I'd be fine with it staying, too. Abstain

Deoxys-S Dear god I hate this thing. What it does is gain you a huge advantage early, it's versality forces you to be cautious, and while you haphazardly protect or switch, he starts laying hazards or setting up screens and you're now at a huge disadvantage. On the other hand, you think it's okay to send in your Gyarados and maybe get up a few DDs while it sets up Screens, and suddenly you get hit with Thunderbolt and are down a mon. This thing supports a team way too well and creates a ton of early leverage. Ban

Dragonite While Inner Focus Dragonite is a decent/good Pokemon, Multiscale Dragonite is a great sweeper with seemingly infinite bulk. I'd like to see Dragonite in OU with Inner Focus, but if that isn't accepted, then the Pokemon itself should go. With Multiscale, Dragonite is nearly impossible to OHKO and even with rocks up, the opportunities you will find to OHKO this thing are slim to none. Multiscale allows it to come in on almost any Pokemon, even things that would normally outspeed and OHKO it and then revenge them. The Bulky DD set is completely devastating to the unprepared opponent, and by unprepared I mean lacking something that hard counters Dragonite, or at least beats the set and the CB Set is just monstrous, and Multiscale allows it to absorb Dragon Pulses, Stone Edges, etc and then smash the attacker back with Outrage. Ban

Volcarona In Sunshine, 252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs 4 HP/252 SpDef Blissey: 52.45% - 61.81% Ban

 

[Dark Azelf]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3888138&postcount=74

https://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3897900&postcount=76

2 votes left, both of which are irrelevant at this point. Here are the results! Ps big thanks to RBG for compiling them!

Thundurus: 52 Ban, 19 Do Not Ban, 3 Abstain = 73.24% Ban
Excadrill: 49 Ban, 22 Do Not Ban, 3 Abstain = 69.01% Ban
Deoxys-S: 28 Ban, 40 Do Not Ban, 6 Abstain = 41.17% Ban
Dragonite: 11 Ban, 60 Do Not Ban, 3 Abstain = 15.49% Ban
Volcarona: 15 Ban, 56 Do Not Ban, 3 Abstain = 21.12% Ban

Thundurus got the supermajority it didn't actually need, but either way he's now banned from OU. Excadrill squeaked out a supermajority with a string of Ban votes at the very end, and is also banned from OU.

Dragonite has the honor of being the weakest link.

The bans will be implemented on the Smogon OU ladder as soon as possible.
__________________

and

As you'll note, I'm an idiot and had Snow Warning as "Hail" for a few votes. Going out on a limb here but I don't think it affected much.

We're missing 6 votes, but those don't affect the outcome (though I'd appreciate it if all 6 of you voted in the Pokemon vote) so to hurry this up up we're going to move to the next stage.

So here are the results:

Sandstorm: 8 Ban, 60 Do Not Ban, 4 Abstain = 11.76% Ban
Drought: 23 Ban, 41 Do Not Ban, 8 Abstain = 35.93% Ban
Drizzle: 26 Ban, 40 Do Not Ban, 6 Abstain = 39.39% Ban
Snow Warning: 5 Ban, 67 Do Not Ban, 0 Abstain = 6.94% Ban
Baton Pass: 38 Ban, 24 Do Not Ban, 10 Abstain = 61.29% Ban

Baton pass receives a simple majority, so it is automatically suspect. Everything else received a minority, with Snow Warning receiving a super-massive minority which is a new term to describe how crushingly OU it is. On to Pokemon voting!
__________________

Discussss

 

[lionrt60]

Lol, was just about to post that xD

Well, tbh we all knew it was going to happen. Thundurus is just so hard to play around (For me anyway.) and Exca is just, yeah. Tbh though I don't think baton pass deserved suspect, I understand how deadly Smash Pass can be but I myself had no problems with it and last gen baton pass wasn't so deadly. Imo ban Shell Smash > Baton Pass but whatever.

 

[Cycle]

I really wanted to see Volcarona gone, it sweeps way too consistently and is ridiculously powerful.

 

[champagnepapi]

I was hoping Deoxys-S would be banned, but at least Thundurus is gone, going to miss Dory though. :(((
Seeing how the "council" will work will be interesting, hopefully OU can improve from it, although I do like the current system. Also Terrakion @ taking over OU y/n.

 

[Vrai]

I still stand by the fact that Thundurus wasn't broken, but eh. It'll be a nice change to see Excadrill out of the metagame. Baton Pass isn't broken. I don't know why people think it is. There are ways to get around it and honestly the only reason why a very well played BP team is so unstoppable is simply because it's unpopular and people are just unwilling to run checks.

 

[Perriechu]

I'm glad Excadrill is banned. Running Bronzong and Gliscor on everything was kind of annoying. although bronzong is on my team now and gliscor was on my old one but still It'll be nice when laddering not having to fear running into that. I'm not really bothered about Thundurus although I don't think it was broken. \; I hope that Sand teams won't be as played much if Excadrill has gone. I didn't see many today. :x

 

[Dark Azelf]

Stall looks even better now with Prankster Sableye being released and the best wall breaker from one side of the spectrum (Thudurus) and the best Spinner (Exca) being banned. Though Sableye is a pain in the ass to check if you're using stall. You need Heatran to beat this essentially.

Dunno what we are gonna see replacing exca on sand teams though, Terrakion ? Stoutland ? (lol) I do think Sandslash will when its released, fun fact; LO Jolly Slash has MORE power than Adamant Balloon Excadrill and Stone Edge to boot. Slash can also spin and gets the same moves as Exca coverage wise (X-Scissor etc).

 

[champagnepapi]

Stall looks even better now with Prankster Sableye being released and the best wall breaker from one side of the spectrum (Thudurus) and the best Spinner (Exca) being banned. Though Sableye is a pain in the ass to check if you're using stall. You need Heatran to beat this essentially.

Dunno what we are gonna see replacing exca on sand teams though, Terrakion ? Stoutland ? (lol) I do think Sandslash will when its released, fun fact; LO Jolly Slash has MORE power than Adamant Balloon Excadrill and Stone Edge to boot. Slash can also spin and gets the same moves as Exca coverage wise (X-Scissor etc).

Sabeleye is a troll to RU/UU Stall, but it can't touch you if you're running Latias [unless it has Toxic], or if you still want to run Gliscor for Taunt, and the ability to stand up to Brokenrakion.

 

[Vrai]

There are a few checks to Sableye and I think everything will adapt. Note that stall also has always had the same issues with physically defensive Mew, who still outspeeds almost everything on stall teams and catches them all with WoW and Taunt. Sableye does have a slightly different niche since it is faster than literally everything and has the opportunity to catch Baton Pass teams (which I think is really its best quality aside from breaking most common stall cores; you will 100% of the time outspeed the Baton Pass to Espeon, whose standard BP set you're immune to as well). Plus it's a ghost type so it blocks spin; I actually was half-ass laddering earlier today and I beat some big name people simply by setting up some hazards, breaking down their spinner with Sableye and then putting intense pressure on with CB Terrakion (who is god btw, only Protect Gliscor can really wall him) and DD Haxorus (who also breaks Baton Pass teams w/ Taunt in an unneeded slot! man look how many checks there really are).

Terrakion and most of those higher speed tier number mons will probably gain in popularity. Excadrill's presence on the metagame was huge and there will probably be a ton of shake-ups, though I gotta say spamming spikestacking works really well since the best spinner in the game is now gone.

 

[Mchopz]

I can understand the Excadrill, but some of these other things are little ridiculous. Like Volcarona seems a little crazy. I don't battle much but one of my friends has a Volcarona and I took it out pretty easy. But then again neither of us are pros. The weather seems silly too. Basically I feel you can't win em all. There will be better teams than yours.

 

[Vrai]

I can understand the Excadrill, but some of these other things are little ridiculous. Like Volcarona seems a little crazy. I don't battle much but one of my friends has a Volcarona and I took it out pretty easy. But then again neither of us are pros. The weather seems silly too. Basically I feel you can't win em all. There will be better teams than yours.

Competitive battling isn't the same as casual battling with your friends and such. The issue with Volcarona is that once it's past two QD's, literally nothing can beat it. Even dedicated special walls such as Blissey lose to the ChestoRest set.