The Burqa - Should it be banned?

[Roxichu]

Without protections on religious freedom, your right to be an atheist and its associated practices and traditions can also come under attack.



The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, meaning it always trumps any other law. This kind of ban would not fly in the U.S., point blank.

We have laws that criminalize domestic violence already, so if a husband is abusing his wife, physically or psychologically, he can be prosecuted without banning the Burqa.

I dunno, I'm all for religious freedom, but I don't think that it can excuse cruelty to animals. There's a line that's crossed there.

 

[Livewire]

I dunno, I'm all for religious freedom, but I don't think that it can excuse cruelty to animals. There's a line that's crossed there.

I agree too, but... Well it may be animal cruelty according to our culture maybe, but not in the eyes of their culture. It's not really fair to judge through ethocentrism. Same argument applies for the Burqa.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

It's not always easy to prove that a husband is abusing his wife since she may be reluctant to accuse him and then have no one believe her and/or suffer more abuse in retaliation. This is one reason why people want the burqa banned - it removes, by law, one way in which man can abuse women (not that all men do or that every woman who wears a burqa is abused).

The woman can also leave her husband and divorce him. Especially in my state where we have no-fault divorce, which means you can divorce your spouse without having a particular reason.

 

[Kura]

Yes, I'd like them banned- we're in the 21st century; don't openly segregate your children. We're not going to randomly find your daughter's forehead sexually arousing. Feel free to cover up everything else you want, but I'd like to at least see who I'm talking to. It's not AMERICAN CULTURE to hide behind a mask.

Example? In Asian countries, it's considered rude to stare someone in the eye, and it's polite to bow. They're not going to stop doing it just because you came along. So you're here in America- respect OUR culture and show your damn nose.


I don't understand why we have to tiptoe around these sorts of things.

 

[doesn't matter]

Dress modestly =/= wear a burqa.

Derp.

You can't determine what is does or does not mean. Sure you referred to the Qur'an, but you ignored other scriptural sources of Islam such as the hadith, and furthermore, you ignore Islamic traditions. The burqa is a perfectly valid interpretation of instruction to dress modestly. The fact that it is adopted so widely only further reinforces its validity.

Let's put this in simpler terms then. It was too early in the morning to think straight on a topic like this. XD;

- It shouldn't be forced upon women and being used as a tool of oppression just makes it worse.
- If a woman herself chooses to wear it, then so be it.
- Banning part of a culture seems unfair. I can understand not allowing it for events such as a job, or other specific occasions, but other than that, a woman should be free to wear it wherever and whenever she wants if she even wants to at all.
​

I think that's pretty clear enough on where I stand on the subject.

Fair enough, but in any case, as long as it is permitted, women will be forced to wear it. Furthermore, the item of clothing itself is a symbol of oppression, one that can't just be explained away by "oh it's her choice". In addition, she may wear it willingly due to societal and cultural pressures - you can't claim that she is always free to wear what she pleases.

Moreover, unlimited tolerance will eventually be destroyed by the intolerant. As long as we allow for women to wear it if they so choose to, eventually there will come a time in our society where women will be expected, and even forced to wear it. This is already happening in places like France, and even in Britain female police officers wear a head covering into mosques there.

If it's the woman's decision to wear it, then she should be damned well able to wear it. It's called Cultural Relativism, we need to judge someone's culture by the standards of their own culture and not our own. Even if it's a tool for discrimination, it is her decision.

It's like saying Jewish men should be banned from wearing Yamachas because we don't wear them.
:|

Cultural revisionism is a load of crap. We should be proud of our culture and its standards, and if immigrants don't want to adapt or adopt our culture when they come, then they shouldn't be allowed to stay. I'm fine with them coming, as I'm sure most people are, but if they don't want to become Australian, American or British or whatever, then they should go back home. In addition, even if you permit it in cases of women choosing to wear it, that doesn't stop it being forced upon them, either by male relatives or by societal and cultural pressures (cultural pressures that have no place in our culture yet still exist because of cultural relativists like yourself).

The comparison with the Jewish Yamachas is irrelevant. That doesn't hide ones identity and/or act as a form of oppression.

Crimes done by men. I asked for one stating a woman committed the crime.

Ah, my bad, didn't read that correctly.

Not that it makes any difference. The burqa can be worn by anyone, and it is exactly the fact that it is a woman's form clothing that allows for it to be used as a way to deceive law enforcement (as well as the fact that it covers everything and leaves no way besides height and eye colour as a means of identifying anyone). You can't even what sex someone wearing a burqa is.

Yes, I'd like them banned- we're in the 21st century; don't openly segregate your children. We're not going to randomly find your daughter's forehead sexually arousing. Feel free to cover up everything else you want, but I'd like to at least see who I'm talking to. It's not AMERICAN CULTURE to hide behind a mask.

Example? In Asian countries, it's considered rude to stare someone in the eye. So they're here in America- respect OUR culture and show your damn nose.


I don't understand why we have to tiptoe around these sorts of things.

I don't even understand why they get their children to wear these things as well. Even a head covering is a bit strange considering that it is supposed to protect their modesty. But then again, considering what Muhammad himself did, I'm not too surprised that they'd want to cover up their children...

Kura, it's because pointing out differences is a crime. Stating the full truth is a crime. Being honest is a crime.

Because heaven forbid that you offend someone with any of these today.

 

[Livewire]

Cultural revisionism is a load of crap. We should be proud of our culture and its standards, and if immigrants don't want to adapt or adopt our culture when they come, then they shouldn't be allowed to stay. I'm fine with them coming, as I'm sure most people are, but if they don't want to become Australian, American or British or whatever, then they should go back home. In addition, even if you permit it in cases of women choosing to wear it, that doesn't stop it being forced upon them, either by male relatives or by societal and cultural pressures (cultural pressures that have no place in our culture yet still exist because of cultural relativists like yourself).

You say cultural revisionism is crap, yet you want to force immigrants to abandon their own culture and conform to yours? That's the load of crap right there. Chances are your culture is defined by immigrants.

 

[doesn't matter]

You say cultural revisionism is crap, yet you want to force immigrants to abandon their own culture and conform to yours? That's the load of crap right there. Chances are your culture is defined by immigrants.

Are you trying to imply that I'm a cultural revisionist, or are you just disagreeing? I'm not sure due to how you worded it.

Assumptions assumptions. Not that it's relevant, nor does it mean what I'm saying is wrong.

 

[Livewire]

I'm not even sure how i worded it either, tbh.

But I would disagree with your statement that immigrants should conform to the culture they immigrate to. You can respect and participate in the new culture, but you shouldnt have to abandon your own in the process. Same applies to the Burqa.

You being from Australia would understand culture clash and how Immigration impacts culture from both sides. Particularly if you're Aboriginal. Look what happened to them- their culture was basically wiped out and the remnants were assimilated into the British's colony.

 

[Yuoaman]

We've lost countless cultures, traditions, and histories just because the people were made to conform with a larger and more powerful group. I don't see why we should be promoting that to happen now.

Not to say that you shouldn't respect other peoples' cultures while you're in their country, but you shouldn't have to lose your own just to do so.

 

[Kura]

I'm not even sure how i worded it either, tbh.

But I would disagree with your statement that immigrants should conform to the culture they immigrate to. You can respect and participate in the new culture, but you shouldnt have to abandon your own in the process. Same applies to the Burqa.

You being from Australia would understand culture clash and how Immigration impacts culture from both sides. Particularly if you're Aboriginal. Look what happened to them- their culture was basically wiped out and the remnants were assimilated into the British's colony.

We've lost countless cultures, traditions, and histories just because the people were made to conform with a larger and more powerful group. I don't see why we should be promoting that to happen now.

Not to say that you shouldn't respect other peoples' cultures while you're in their country, but you shouldn't have to lose your own just to do so.

I don't want people to stop their culture. Wear your Burka around your house for all I care, but when you go out in public, I think it should be categorized the same as "indecent exposure" for SAFETY measures. Go ahead, wear your hijab! I don't mind! I can speak to you normally, and I know the identity of who I'm talking to. How could I know that I can trust a solicitor or security guard with only their eyes showing? Why would I even want to approach someone who I can't even see if they're a man or a woman? THEY are segregating themselves from US by doing so. In a way, they are pointing themselves out as being -alien- in a foreign place.

In European countries, women are allowed to go around topless especially in beaches- but in Canadian and American beaches.. they're SUPPOSED to cover up or they will get fined. Women in some European countries don't wax or shave, and yet it's deemed disgusting and socially unacceptable here. Do you think they should shave? Do you get grossed out when you see a woman walking around with hairy beastlike legs in a miniskirt?

If you're such an avid supporter in protecting cultures, then why do you allow this other stuff to happen... and yet raise hell over a damn Burka?

Don't pull the "I respect all cultures" bull because I haven't seen any other concerns about equality posted unless it's about GAYS, or ISLAMIC CULTURE- and it's honestly reminding me of a recent headline titled; "Is Gay the New Black?"

So back up and think about your OWN culture for a moment to see what others have oppressed YOU from, instead of vouching for the Burka-parade just so you can be "politically correct."

 

[Bluerang1]

My hair statement is for head scarves mistake.. I meant, God gave you a face, he gave you a whole body, why would you want to cover it all up? It's kind of an insult as in, he gave those features and you're not showing them for a reason that he didn't say. Since they believe in God, Burkas aren't really, how do I phrase this? God didn't say women should wear Burkas so they shouldn't feel the need to, hence it being fine for them to be banned. Since the religion is based on God, Allah to be precise.

 

[Soari]

My hair statement is for head scarves mistake.. I meant, God gave you a face, he gave you a whole body, why would you want to cover it all up? It's kind of an insult as in, he gave those features and you're not showing them for a reason that he didn't say. Since they believe in God, Burkas aren't really, how do I phrase this? God didn't say women should wear Burkas so they shouldn't feel the need to, hence it being fine for them to be banned. Since the religion is based on God, Allah to be precise.

Wait, how can you actually say that it's an Insult to God? You can't say that without having any knowledge about Islam. In Islam it's obligatory for the women to cover themselves. The Quran clearly instructs women to dress and behave modestly in society to protect themselves from bad and ill-minded people. And FYI, the commandment for a woman to cover themselves is also in the Bible. Unfortunately, majority of the Christians today are not following the teachings of the Bible and the large majority of Christian women do not cover. =\

Back to the topic: Well, I completely oppose the ban of Veil/Burka/Abaya/Hijab etc.It will bring complete disgraceful for its purpose and disrespect for the women who choose to wear it. I understand the fears of the possibility that one could use the burqa as a disguise for robbery and other criminal acts, but people shouldn't let that fear to ride across human & religious rights. People should respect and honor Muslims religious identity.

 

[Kura]

Hey, if people can wear whatever they want, then maybe I should parade down the streets wearing skinned human flesh from recent funeral corpses over my body because our God tells us that we should never be wasteful. Then I will throw stones at infidels who don't believe in MY Lord.

It's my -RELIGIOUS RIGHT- isn't it?


They're not allowed to mix religion with politics- that's why so many gay marriages are allowed. I believe I should be granted my SAFETY in a country. Sure it's a fear if I can't see who is confronting me, and I think it's a disgrace THEIR identities as Americans.
But you know, if it boils down to us not being afraid of other people, then everyone should be allowed to walk down the streets with guns in their hands while they tell you that it's their personal belief that they need to have protection.


So what is it? Should we ban gay marriage because they bible says it's wrong? Or should we allow Burkas because the bible says it's allowed? First you fight FOR the bible, and then AGAINST? Make up your freaking minds.


Are you going to let religion dictate your laws or not? Because if then, we should be readying ourselves for Polygamy, Male Dominence, and Animal Sacrification over everything else.

Wait, how can you actually say that it's an Insult to God? You can't say that without having any knowledge about Islam. In Islam it's obligatory for the women to cover themselves.

"Wait! You can't say that without having any knowledge about Islam." Dude, don't put down another person's opinion when your facts aren't entirely right, either. The Quran does mention for women to dress modestly, but there is NOTHING in there that states it's OBLIGATORY for women to specifically cover themselves. It is a choice. And that being said, the Burka is NOT a mandatory article of clothing they must wear.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:/ Also.. not relating to this quote or anything else.. but Islamic women in the UK are getting FREE (healthcare system pays for it) hymen reconstructive surgery before they get married. The people's taxes are GOING to the operations of thousands of people who SAY that they practice their faith, cover themselves head to toe, and then turn around and have sex before marriage? HELLO! Wake up people!
I know I don't mean to generalize for all Muslims and Hindus but COME ON. They're going against they own faith by doing that, but put on the whole getup to LOOK like they're playing the part of a good practicer of their faith?
RIDICULOUS. Not everyone does this, but it's a damn fair amount due to statistics. And honestly, if you're gonna 'demand' some proof from me, go shove it. I saw it in the paper while I was riding the bus one morning in Britain, and I'm not going to try and dig up some article just because you can't get it through your thick skulls that not everyone is actually who they say they really are.

I also don't mean to go a bit offtopic with this.. but if it's about RELIGION, that has NOTHING to do with passing a law OR equal rights because LAWS are NOT to be based on religion and it DOES say that in the American Constitution.
So if you don't like it, those original 55 representatives from the first 13 US colonies will just have to tell you to SUCK IT. lol..

 

[doesn't matter]

I don't want people to stop their culture. Wear your Burka around your house for all I care, but when you go out in public, I think it should be categorized the same as "indecent exposure" for SAFETY measures. Go ahead, wear your hijab! I don't mind! I can speak to you normally, and I know the identity of who I'm talking to. How could I know that I can trust a solicitor or security guard with only their eyes showing? Why would I even want to approach someone who I can't even see if they're a man or a woman? THEY are segregating themselves from US by doing so. In a way, they are pointing themselves out as being -alien- in a foreign place.

In European countries, women are allowed to go around topless especially in beaches- but in Canadian and American beaches.. they're SUPPOSED to cover up or they will get fined. Women in some European countries don't wax or shave, and yet it's deemed disgusting and socially unacceptable here. Do you think they should shave? Do you get grossed out when you see a woman walking around with hairy beastlike legs in a miniskirt?

If you're such an avid supporter in protecting cultures, then why do you allow this other stuff to happen... and yet raise hell over a damn Burka?

Don't pull the "I respect all cultures" bull because I haven't seen any other concerns about equality posted unless it's about GAYS, or ISLAMIC CULTURE- and it's honestly reminding me of a recent headline titled; "Is Gay the New Black?"

So back up and think about your OWN culture for a moment to see what others have oppressed YOU from, instead of vouching for the Burka-parade just so you can be "politically correct."

Couldn't have said it better myself Kura, I'm quite impressed, particularly with the last sentence, because that's the problem with our society right now.

:/ Also.. not relating to this quote or anything else.. but Islamic women in the UK are getting FREE (healthcare system pays for it) hymen reconstructive surgery before they get married. The people's taxes are GOING to the operations of thousands of people who SAY that they practice their faith, cover themselves head to toe, and then turn around and have sex before marriage? HELLO! Wake up people!

A similar example of this would be clitorectomies - circumcision of the clitoris. Many young girls from Western countries continue to suffer under this horrifying and humiliating procedure for the sake of "culture" and "religion" - must we tolerate that as well because it's not our own culture?

 

[Soari]

."Wait! You can't say that without having any knowledge about Islam." Dude, don't put down another person's opinion when your facts aren't entirely right, either. The Quran does mention for women to dress modestly, but there is NOTHING in there that states it's OBLIGATORY for women to specifically cover themselves. It is a choice. And that being said, the Burka is NOT a mandatory article of clothing they must wear.

I am not specifically talking about the Burka. From what I have studied and understood is that the majority of the scholars say that Burkha is not obligatory. It's always praised and yes I do agree with you there that it's a choice and it's not mandatory to wear such extreme confine clothing, but a woman needs to cover everything except her hands and her face, which is COMPULSORY AND RECOMMENDED. It's clearly being said in the Quran.

 

[Rogue planet]

I am not specifically talking about the Burka. From what I have studied and understood is that the majority of the scholars say that Burkha is not obligatory. It's always praised and yes I do agree with you there that it's a choice and it's not mandatory to wear such extreme confine clothing, but a woman needs to cover everything except her hands and her face, which is COMPULSORY AND RECOMMENDED. It's clearly being said in the Quran.

The issue here isn't about concealment in general, it's only about the burqa. People have no real issue with what anyone wears as long as it's not fully concealing the face, so anything other than the burqa is unlikely to cause any complaints.
"Compulsory and recommended" nothing is compulsory, people choose to follow these religions and choose to follow these beliefs that accompany it. I've been friends with Muslims from Indonesia and they are not even nearly as strict as the Muslims from the Middle Eastern countries that enforce these practices. The religion has been twisted so that it makes followers believe they should follow these practices, when they really don't.

And it is about time these people got up to date and stopped with the breach of human rights "in the name of religion."

As for the small percentage that actually really want to wear the burqa then I think they should just have to bite the bullet and accept that it's not appreciated in other cultures and can cause a number of problems.

I could argue that it's part of my culture to not allow people to wear a burqa.
When women are in certain Middle Eastern countries, they're forced to wear a burqa regardless of religion, nationality or cultural background.
Well if they're in my country, then they should be forced not to wear a burqa, it is part of my culture after all so they have to respect that otherwise they're RACIST.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

We forget that women in the United States choose to be Islamic. They are free to choose whatever religion they wish without the government interfering, and it is a crime for others to harass or attack them for their religious beliefs.

 

[TRIFORCE89]

We forget that women in the United States choose to be Islamic. They are free to choose whatever religion they wish without the government interfering, and it is a crime for others to harass or attack them for their religious beliefs.

I don't have a problem with Islam. Whatever religion one follows is of no concern to me.

But, nowhere is it mandated in the Qur'an to wear the Burqa. Instead, it is an element of tradition in that faith. And in many (probably most) situations the women wears it not by choice, but out of fear. Essentially forced to wear it by the males in her life. So, she can choose to follow Islam. Good for her. But in most cases, I don't think she willingly chooses to wear the Burqa.

I don't care if you wear a hijab or anything similar that is "modest" because you can see their face. But this is demeaning for the woman who wear them and an issue of public safety. Not being able to identify people is not good.

So, it isn't really part of the religion, but a cultural tradition - so the government wouldn't be interfering with religion. And in many cases it goes against the personal liberties of the woman. And an issue of public safety. Sounds like a good situation for government intervention.

 

[ANARCHit3cht]

So long as she is not being forced to wear it, then I see no problem.

You can't ban the burqa just because someone will commit and crime and not be identified. You would have to ban every single other item that cover's one face, which just isn't plausible.

 

[Kura]

So long as she is not being forced to wear it, then I see no problem.

You can't ban the burqa just because someone will commit and crime and not be identified. You would have to ban every single other item that cover's one face, which just isn't plausible.

The fact is, if someone IS wearing a different article of clothing, authorities CAN ask them to take it off. For some reason, if a woman wearing a Burqa is asked to take it off by an officer, traditionally they can refuse. That's what adds to the issue of public safety.

>_> And who else do you see walking around with ski-masks in the middle of summer? Hello!! That's so not an issue.


I agree with everything Triforce89 said.