The Education System

[LoudSilence]

As most of you are probably aware, what we consider education in society today is the "university" paradigm: you go through some obligatory primary education, then have the choice of attempting a degree which certifies you in a particular area of study. College degrees are typically seen as definitive of one's social standing and "education" -- as in, if you didn't go to college, you are "uneducated" and in some cases, seen as intellectually inferior compared to one who attained a diploma.

What do you guys think of this social construct and the significance it plays in both social and work settings? And on the whole, what do you guys think of the education system in general (secondary school, high school, etc.)?

I'll reserve comment for later, I just wanted to hear some of your thoughts!

 

[Flushed]

From what I see and hear, it's really a lose-lose situation when it comes to college degrees. You don't get one, you're screwed. You get one, and no jobs? Well now you're in debt; screwed. An education seems to be a privilege, but at the same time, doesn't exactly seem to make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. And at what point do the economics stop working in your favor? How much is too much to pay for an education that may not even get you to where you want to be? /irrelevantpoint?

Just my take on things. I do think secondary education should be a priority, and we should work to make it a necessity, but it becomes a trade-off. If everyone has a degree, does it mean anything anymore? Yet even where we stand now, a degree doesn't guarantee anything (not saying it should, but I continually see these stories of people who graduate finding no working opportunities).

 

[twocows]

University education should cost as much as public primary education: nothing. Secondary education today plays the same role that primary education played when we made it free in the US (you can/could make a living without secondary/primary, but you will/would be barely getting by). Some nations already have free secondary schooling. I think the US should follow suit.

 

[MKGirlism]

Universities...They cost 6 times more if the government doesn't fund your Studies, because **** Logic.
As for the Education System itself, I can't speak of any other countries than the Dutch one.
The quality of the Dutch Education System differs per School.
At the Secondary School, teachers were like, "you pupils just use your books, I'll go on Facebook, and if you have a question, don't ask me".
At MBO, teachers were like, "screw you guys/gals, you do whatever the **** you want, it's your own future, after all".
At HBO, teachers actually did give Lectures quite well.

Then I'm only talking about Education Levels.
NHTV and InHolland, for example, are both HBO Levels, but while at NHTV you become really skilled within 4 years, thanks to their highly skilled teachers, you'll end up knowing nothing after 6 years at InHolland, due to teachers not knowing what they have to do.

 

[PokemonLeagueChamp]

Man, I was gonna make this thread....

There are lovely stats that show student debt rates shooting up way higher than other kinds of debt, including home payments, in recent years(which I will be more than happy to produce if, by some chance, someone thinks I'm lying). That, in an economy with less and less career opportunity, is a problem. You walk out the door with your degree in one hand, a slip for tens of thousands worth of debt and the other, and you can't even find a career. You can maybe find a job and get minimum wage, but good luck paying those student loans. Oh, and did I mention that even in bankruptcy, you still might not be able to get out of your college debts?

I understand the value of a good education, believe me. It's just getting to a point where the college degree is probably not the soundest investment anymore, as it may not be enough to get you a career in your chosen field. And I'm not just talking degree programs like liberal arts, where there isn't a huge demand for those degrees regardless. I'm talking business and even science degrees. The economy, believe it or not, hasn't really bounced back. Hiring hasn't exactly picked up. Oh wait, Wal-Mart, Target, and (insert local supermarket chain here) added some new minimum wage cashier jobs. That counts as job creation, right?

 

[Silais]

As most of you are probably aware, what we consider education in society today is the "university" paradigm: you go through some obligatory primary education, then have the choice of attempting a degree which certifies you in a particular area of study. College degrees are typically seen as definitive of one's social standing and "education" -- as in, if you didn't go to college, you are "uneducated" and in some cases, seen as intellectually inferior compared to one who attained a diploma.

What do you guys think of this social construct and the significance in plays in both social and work settings? And on the whole, what do you guys think of the education system in general (secondary school, high school, etc.)?

Most jobs should not require a degree because most jobs are not intellectually challenging. I could list one hundred jobs off the top of my head that do not require any sort of special intellectual or mental training. Take any retail worker for example, or a restaurant worker. There are 10,000,000 restaurant workers in the United States; waiting on tables does not require any sort of degree. The vast majority of contemporary jobs do not fit into these categories:

-Addiction studies
-Psychology
-Criminal Justice
-Medical Biology
-Chemistry
-Nutrition
-Dentistry
-Teaching
-Sports science
-Nursing
-Physics

There are others, but I cannot think of them. The point is, most jobs do not fall into these divisions of education. Would that we could have 10,000,000 doctors or nurses or psychologists, but we do not. These types of jobs are specialized and as such the vast majority of Americans are not employed in them.

With all of that said, I find the current education system to be misguided in that it expects all students to fall into these categories, which is simply not possible, and as such they pressure young adults to receive degrees that may or may not be useful in their lifetime. Our culture of one-size-fits-all education has never worked, and never will. You cannot fit square pegs in round holes. Not everyone is the same, and not everyone needs or wants the same education.

 

[Esper]

The American system has problems. Cost is probably the first one, but that's been explained already so I won't really go into it except to say that after high school things can get very expensive for a lot of people.

Well, actually, I'm gonna go more into cost because it ties in to what I think is the next biggest problem - using your education to make a living. Lots of degrees aren't going to land you the big bucks. I'm not just talking about liberal arts, but if you go into, for instance, education, you're most likely not going to ever make a lot of money. I know there are people who think that everyone should aim for STEM type degrees because those are what lead to "real" jobs, but I think it's just as fair to support people who want to follow art or music. They'll know they aren't going into something that's going to make them rich. Why do we saddle them with huge debts? That's just going to make them more dependent on government help as they struggle. So you can either take away the liberal arts from colleges or you can bring the cost down to make it possible for people to go into those fields.

I'm for keeping those around. They have value. They won't be training people to fight cancer, but I find that it's the people who want to go into the sciences who are going to do well and not the people who don't. Even within the liberal arts there are lots of skills that get learned. In general they'll improve society as a whole. Someone who goes to college and gets a psychology degree despite not having any goal of going into psychology is still likely going to be a better contribution to society than someone who hasn't gone through that education.

That's my bias, I suppose. I think education is good and benefits people and we should have more of it.

 

[Kanzler]

The bachelor's degree is a standard for greater earning power. I think John Green did a video on this once, and concluded that even if there's a lot of debt, the earning power eventually pays off. It gives you access to jobs that you otherwise wouldn't be able to get. You graduate into a limited-access tier, to put it in a way.

 

[Esper]

The bachelor's degree is a standard for greater earning power. I think John Green did a video on this once, and concluded that even if there's a lot of debt, the earning power eventually pays off. It gives you access to jobs that you otherwise wouldn't be able to get. You graduate into a limited-access tier, to put it in a way.

That's a good point. I have a degree, but my job doesn't include anything specific to what I studied. Despite that the job application said they wanted someone with a college degree. I guess there's still that prestige of being college educated that'll get you some places.

 

[PokemonLeagueChamp]

Which is something I find odd because if everyone did have a college degree, which seems to be the expectation, what would be so special about having one?

 

[Kanzler]

That's just the thing, it's no longer something special - it's becoming the norm.

 

[Esper]

Which is something I find odd because if everyone did have a college degree, which seems to be the expectation, what would be so special about having one?

We'd all be better educated? We'd all be a little more equal then we are now?

 

[PokemonLeagueChamp]

We'd all be better educated? We'd all be a little more equal then we are now?

I'd just like to point out that the bolded phrase makes no sense.

And suppose everyone has a 4 year degree. For the sake of argument, the education quality is the same everywhere. What good does that being "more educated" do? Supply would outweigh demand. Also being more educated does not necessarily equate to being less ignorant on current events and the like.

 

[twocows]

I'd just like to point out that the bolded phrase makes no sense.

And suppose everyone has a 4 year degree. For the sake of argument, the education quality is the same everywhere. What good does that being "more educated" do? Supply would outweigh demand. Also being more educated does not necessarily equate to being less ignorant on current events and the like.

Uh, what good doesn't being better educated do? The foundation of our actions is our knowledge and understanding. Having a better understanding of the world around us (even if it's just in one particular way) helps us make better decisions in general, and having more experts on various topics helps us advance everything faster. I don't think there's a single thing that wouldn't be improved by having everyone better educated.

 

[Kanzler]

I'd just like to point out that the bolded phrase makes no sense.

Nahh, it does make sense. People can be more or less equal. I think you're taking your idea out of Animal Farm, in which one of the slogans was "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" - the idea being that equality as a word has been twisted to mean material wealth (as it does very well mean for the poor, if you think about it). Scarf didn't use it in the same context. If today I had ten dollars and you had none, but tomorrow I had eight and you five, we would be more equal on the second day, no?

And suppose everyone has a 4 year degree. For the sake of argument, the education quality is the same everywhere. What good does that being "more educated" do? Supply would outweigh demand. Also being more educated does not necessarily equate to being less ignorant on current events and the like.

And that would be true if the economy was static with respect to supply and demand, but it isn't. If there's more demand for higher paying jobs, then there's no reason why the worth of a degree would go down in an absolute sense. Relatively, yes, because there's more competition, but hey that's a fact of life right? Also, supply can generate demand. A company isn't going to invest in creating high-value-added, high-paying jobs if it can't find enough people in an area to do them.

Educated people can be very ignorant on current events and the like.

 

[PokemonLeagueChamp]

Well, if having a college degree is so great, why is it that a fairly decent amount of graduates wind up being the people we talk about in the Wal-Mart thread? Could it be, perhaps, that the only thing truly guaranteed by a college degree is debt? And there's no good way to spin having debt here, especially when it can range anywhere from $20,000 to over $100,000, and then that debt being loaded on someone who probably doesn't have the finances to even begin handling that load(not counting community colleges but most of those only go up to associate's degrees).

I'm not trying to say simply getting a degree is a bad thing here, I'm just questioning if, right now, with the economy still in a bit of a slump, a college degree is really worth the time and money.

 

[Kanzler]

Well, if having a college degree is so great, why is it that some graduates wind up being the people we talk about in the Wal-Mart thread? Could it be, perhaps, that the only thing truly guaranteed by a college degree is debt? And there's no good way to spin having debt here, especially when it can range anywhere from $20,000 to over $100,000, and then that debt being loaded on someone who probably doesn't have the finances to even begin handling that load(not counting community colleges but most of those only go up to associate's degrees).

I'm not trying to say simply getting a degree is a bad thing here, I'm just questioning if, right now, with the economy still in a bit of a slump, a college degree is really worth the time and money.

Yeah, but the economy is bound to get better in the future, and getting a degree is a long-term investment that will pay off for the rest of your life. I think the US economy is still very vibrant and capable of growth - it's huge, it's diversified, it won't suffer population crises, and it has world leading industries and companies.

Anyways, I trust this guy:



It's really, really good.

 

[acatfrommars]

I think that what you are saying is true. Many believe that people that don't go to college or that college drop outs are unintelligent. While this can be the truth for many people, many of the smartest people didn't finish or even go to college. I believe that this is a stereotype by society, and it makes me sad. In America, I think that the education is good, but High School needs to be different. I think instead of going to high school for 4 years, students should be able to pick how long they wish to go. Like this year I am a senior and the majority of my classes are AP (College) classes. Like what is the point for me waking up at 6 AM every day just to take college classes when I could be off at college waking up at 10 or 11 and getting even farther in life. My friends takes all AP and he's only a junior. It seems that the only way to graduate high school in America is if mommy and daddy are rich an you can go to special, magnet schools. It makes me mad, but that's life I guess.

There are also many alternatives of college, but I do believe that it is important. Although, it is not the only way one has to go to be successful. There are also many factors on why people may not be able to go to college: economic or social reasons. It is not their fault, but as our society generally tends to fold these people may be stuck working at McDonalds for the rest of their life. I would know, I work at a fast food place all the time, and I've seen many who have made bad choices with their life, but I've also seen many unprivileged people who couldn't find help when they needed it most.

 

[twocows]

Well, if having a college degree is so great, why is it that a fairly decent amount of graduates wind up being the people we talk about in the Wal-Mart thread?

There will always be those uninitiated people who can't make it through. That doesn't mean there won't be people who would not have otherwise been able to get an education who would be able to if it was free. Also, it's not like you don't learn anything even from the attempt. And you are exposed to different points of view in the process; it's pretty much impossible to socialize at a university and not at least broaden your perspective.

Could it be, perhaps, that the only thing truly guaranteed by a college degree is debt?

No. And the point we're arguing is that education should be free, so you're both wrong and completely missing the point.

And there's no good way to spin having debt here, especially when it can range anywhere from $20,000 to over $100,000, and then that debt being loaded on someone who probably doesn't have the finances to even begin handling that load(not counting community colleges but most of those only go up to associate's degrees).

Again, what we're (or I'm, but I believe Scarf was also on board with this point) arguing is that education should be free, not that people should live outside their means.

I'm not trying to say simply getting a degree is a bad thing here, I'm just questioning if, right now, with the economy still in a bit of a slump, a college degree is really worth the time and money.

And again, that's not something I was arguing. I said that education should be free and that getting such a free education would be almost universally a good thing. How anyone can possibly disagree with the latter is beyond me, and if you disagree with the former for whatever reason, you're wrong (it's one of the few large economic investments that would almost certainly pay off in the long run).

 

[PokemonLeagueChamp]

"Free" education often isn't.
And besides, even if there was no such thing as college tuition, how do you propose colleges be funded? Tax dollars?

Also, most of those who rack up large debts at four year universities, while they are certainly living outside their means, are doing so because the prevailing voice is that doing so will be worth it in the long run. All fine and good, except when there are few careers to be had at this point. I wouldn't really be concerned about this given that economies are generally cyclical, but the actions Federal Government(and the Federal Reserve)are making recovery difficult at best. There are a lot of factors to look at here, and I'm not sure they're all being looked at.