The Ethics of Pokemon

[Musicality]

Once again, the title says it all. Because these kind of topics usually have a tendency to go out of hand real quick, before you jump right in and get posting, please:

-Respect one another.
-Know the difference between a fiery debate and a flaming war.
-Recognize that everyone has his/her own opinion.
-Keep this to Nintendo Pokemon video game titles.

Since the early days of Pokemon, cheat devices have existed and have seen rampant usage. Action Replay in the GBA and DS era, and now even as Nintendo tries as hard as ever to patch all these hacks, exploits are still rampant in the 3DS era in the form of Powersaves and Cyber Gadget, the latter allowing you to fully edit any Pokemon, and both of them offering functionality such as cloning, unlimited in game currency, items, event-only Pokemon and the like. Because everyone has his/her own "line", try not to discuss about whether Pokegen is right or wrong. Keep in mind that Powersaves in this context is used for exploits instead of save backups. Instead:

-How are the (exploits) hurting the trade economy, if at all?

-Is cloning Pokemon to trade away for something of a similar value if the Pokemon was not cloned acceptable, when the other user is knowingly/unknowingly trading a cloned Pokemon?

-Are injected wondercards okay, if they are RNGed for IVs instead of having them hacked?

-Is the use of TSV and ESV to hatch shiny eggs okay? Find more information about it here.

Discuss away, and have fun! ^~^

 

[Cerberus87]

Whoa, I've been so behind the times that I don't even know what these hacks are! ^^ Didn't know about this "Cyber Gadget" either.

There was a time when I'd freely advocate hacks, because GF robbed us of the opportunity to get multiples of certain items, especially TMs and evolutionary items. In 6th gen, they're easier to get, and TMs have had infinite use since 5th gen.

The problem with Pokémon (and many RPGs) is that certain mechanics are too repetitive. It doesn't take skill to get what you want, but time. If it doesn't take any skill, then a hack which saves time is ideal. However, I've found that these hacks kinda take away from the games because the replay value is much lower. If you don't have to breed to get that perfect Pokémon, if you don't have to trade to get certain Pokémon, you're not playing the game as much. And GF has been introducing things to make the process of getting strong Pokémon and rare items more enjoyable, which is commendable.

I don't think cloning is ok, because it goes against the principle of trade. You're supposed to lose something and gain something in return. That's the fun in it.

My opinion on RNG is negative, too. Often you need external tools like RNGReporter to find your seed, and it will provide a completely legal hack, but a hack nonetheless. "Possible" doesn't mean "probable". Besides, I find RNG to be a waste of time when AR can give you the same results with less effort.

Since TSV and ESV require hacking tools, if you don't like hacks, then it's not "ok", period, and hurts the shiny availability.

 

[Nah]

My stance has always been that it's fine so long as the Pokemon are legal. In battles, people generally expect your Pokemon to have prefect IVs and all the right moves, abilities, etc, so if your Pokemon was created to have said IVs and moves, people won't care. You can't really tell the difference between a legal poke and a legitimate one anyway when battling. When it comes to trading you should probably not trade Pokemon that were created via outside sources, even if they are legal, unless the person you are trading with is fine with that. Since some people don't even like legal Pokemon.

How or if it affects the "trade economy" is something I don't know. Economics of any sort are not my strong suit.

Also, a few definitions for this thread, since the terms legitimate, legal, and hacked tend to confuse people a bit:

-Legitimate Pokemon: A Pokemon created entirely through in-game processes or obtained from an official event. Cloning and RNGing is generally considered to be a part of this.

-Legal Pokemon: A Pokemon that was created, either in part or wholly, by outside sources, such as PokeGen or Powersaves, but has stats, moves, abilities, etc that could have also been obtained through in-game processes.

-Hacked: A Pokemon that was created through outside sources and has moves, abilities, stats, that it cannot have legitimately. Examples include the infamous Wondertomb/Wondereye and basically all shiny Mews.

And one other thing.....I'd appreciate it if people avoid posting things about how the use of "cheat devices" is wrong solely because "it's not how the game was meant to be played" or "breeding for my own Pokemon gives me a sense of accomplishment, therefore using cheating devices is wrong". Those are NOT valid arguments; those are simply just your personal feelings about gaming. And tbh, I'm a bit tired of seeing those things being said whenever this topic is brought up, particularly when some of those people look down upon those who use "cheat devices".

 

[SnowpointQuincy]

I learned to clone for one reason, Togekiss. I went through all the effort to hatch a perfect Togetic, EV train, raise to LV.50, only to find out once it evolves it looses access to all his level up moves. So, if I want to change his moveset...I have to breed, Train, and Level an NEW Togekiss.

I had to cheat to replace Aura Sphere with Follow Me, a Legal Move he learns leveling up. I new this would happen so I had a clone prepared that was already at Lv.50 and EV trained.

I have not traded clones to people, I offer them sometimes, but havent had to.

I haven't tried using other cheats. But I might try the Rare Candy cheat. I have about 30 Pokemon lined up for EV training. Leveling ALL of them to 50 is just tedious nothing. Who cares how the got to Lv.50? They are 100% legit.

Also, i got 70 Rare Candies just from wonder trading and buying them off the GL website. So, I guess i could just WonderSpam, but that is grinding too.

 

[Musicality]

Whoa, I've been so behind the times that I don't even know what these hacks are! ^^ Didn't know about this "Cyber Gadget" either.

There was a time when I'd freely advocate hacks, because GF robbed us of the opportunity to get multiples of certain items, especially TMs and evolutionary items. In 6th gen, they're easier to get, and TMs have had infinite use since 5th gen.

The problem with Pokémon (and many RPGs) is that certain mechanics are too repetitive. It doesn't take skill to get what you want, but time. If it doesn't take any skill, then a hack which saves time is ideal. However, I've found that these hacks kinda take away from the games because the replay value is much lower. If you don't have to breed to get that perfect Pokémon, if you don't have to trade to get certain Pokémon, you're not playing the game as much. And GF has been introducing things to make the process of getting strong Pokémon and rare items more enjoyable, which is commendable.

I don't think cloning is ok, because it goes against the principle of trade. You're supposed to lose something and gain something in return. That's the fun in it.

My opinion on RNG is negative, too. Often you need external tools like RNGReporter to find your seed, and it will provide a completely legal hack, but a hack nonetheless. "Possible" doesn't mean "probable". Besides, I find RNG to be a waste of time when AR can give you the same results with less effort.

Since TSV and ESV require hacking tools, if you don't like hacks, then it's not "ok", period, and hurts the shiny availability.

Personally, I'm fine with cloning as a whole but as long as the person you're trading it to knows that it's a clone. Clones for personal use and AR for the purpose of exploits are also fine if you're using it solely for your game, and not to ruin the experience of others online.

My stance has always been that it's fine so long as the Pokemon are legal. In battles, people generally expect your Pokemon to have prefect IVs and all the right moves, abilities, etc, so if your Pokemon was created to have said IVs and moves, people won't care. You can't really tell the difference between a legal poke and a legitimate one anyway when battling. When it comes to trading you should probably not trade Pokemon that were created via outside sources, even if they are legal, unless the person you are trading with is fine with that. Since some people don't even like legal Pokemon.

How or if it affects the "trade economy" is something I don't know. Economics of any sort are not my strong suit.

Also, a few definitions for this thread, since the terms legitimate, legal, and hacked tend to confuse people a bit:

-Legitimate Pokemon: A Pokemon created entirely through in-game processes or obtained from an official event. Cloning and RNGing is generally considered to be a part of this.

-Legal Pokemon: A Pokemon that was created, either in part or wholly, by outside sources, such as PokeGen or Powersaves, but has stats, moves, abilities, etc that could have also been obtained through in-game processes.

-Hacked: A Pokemon that was created through outside sources and has moves, abilities, stats, that it cannot have legitimately. Examples include the infamous Wondertomb/Wondereye and basically all shiny Mews.

And one other thing.....I'd appreciate it if people avoid posting things about how the use of "cheat devices" is wrong solely because "it's not how the game was meant to be played" or "breeding for my own Pokemon gives me a sense of accomplishment, therefore using cheating devices is wrong". Those are NOT valid arguments; those are simply just your personal feelings about gaming. And tbh, I'm a bit tired of seeing those things being said whenever this topic is brought up, particularly when some of those people look down upon those who use "cheat devices".

Yeah, thanks for the definitions, I see it getting mixed up a lot. I actually agree with the fact that as long as a Pokemon is "legal", whether you want to put in the effort to train it is a personal thing. What I don't support, however, is winning competitions with rewards in it because you'd put in substantially less effort than others. (As in the case of VGC every year.) Honestly, I'm fine with SRing this generation, but naturally you'd tell others that you SRed/RNGed. From what I've seen, it's widely accepted because the Pokemon is still generated by the game itself.

As for the case of the Shiny Mew, it apparently is possible to obtain one, albeit with a Japanese name. The Old Sea Map event in RSE was given out to Japan, and Mew wasn't shiny locked then, so you had a chance of getting a shiny one every encounter. Then again, you still see English Shiny Mews on prominent trade threads that have been RNGed on an emulator.

I feel that Powersaves is getting a lot more **** than it deserves. It's different from Action Replay at first glance, and even if you want to use it for exploits, then the above points will have to be taken into consideration. But I've seen a lot of people get instantly slammed because of Powersave, when it can also be used for data backup, cloning, and the like.

With regards to the said "trade economy", it's precisely why so many people are against cloning. From some of the arguments I've seen floating around the web, it generally goes like this. X has the ability to clone Pokemon, and trades Pokemon with Y who can't clone. Therefore, X gains by getting a new Pokemon and has the potential to clone another one to trade but Y loses the only copy of the Pokemon he/she had. Also, all that stuff about cloning lowering the value of a certain Pokemon because many people started to clone it. Some of the points that I read were pretty logical, though.

I learned to clone for one reason, Togekiss. I went through all the effort to hatch a perfect Togetic, EV train, raise to LV.50, only to find out once it evolves it looses access to all his level up moves. So, if I want to change his moveset...I have to breed, Train, and Level an NEW Togekiss.

I had to cheat to replace Aura Sphere with Follow Me, a Legal Move he learns leveling up. I new this would happen so I had a clone prepared that was already at Lv.50 and EV trained.

I have not traded clones to people, I offer them sometimes, but havent had to.

I haven't tried using other cheats. But I might try the Rare Candy cheat. I have about 30 Pokemon lined up for EV training. Leveling ALL of them to 50 is just tedious nothing. Who cares how the got to Lv.50? They are 100% legit.

Also, i got 70 Rare Candies just from wonder trading and buying them off the GL website. So, I guess i could just WonderSpam, but that is grinding too.

Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence of cloning now. I'm actually planning to start a trade thread soon, but can't decided whether to offer UT Pokemon which I'm leaning more towards or clones, which I see many prominent trade threads around the net offering. I can see the obvious benefits and peace of mind that comes with cloning though, especially with Bank out and all that good stuff.

 

[Megan]

Hacking is a really difficult matter to decide upon, especially if you dive into the lower depths of game mechanics, PKM and PKX files (which the Pokemon are stored in). If you go deep enough you'll even find that there's a way to make legal Pokemon perfectly legit.

Just to show you, what I mean: consider you are playing a Gen 5 game and while you play the game you just realize that you never had a Celebi and you really want to use one at least once. You decide to use PokeGen to create one, but since you want it to be as close to the originals as possible, you spend hours on the internet retrieving information about an event Celebi, that you then use to create your own. After you're finished you pokegen it and insert it into your gen 5 game.
At this point you have a legal (but hacked) Celebi in your gen 5 game.

Some time later the Gen 6 Pokemon games get released and with them comes Pokebank, which allows to transfer Gen 5 Pokemon to your Gen 6 games. At this point let's just ignore that there was an event Celebi that you could get. Also just to clarify: Pokebank is an official tool, it's no third party thingy or anything else.

You decide that you want your Celebi in the next Gen, so you end up using the app to upload it into your Pokebank account. Now, I'm not exactly sure how Pokebank evaluates your old Pokemon, I just know that it's doing mathematical stuff, probably involving checksums and a couple of error correction algorithms. If your Pokemon doesn't get though these tests, it gets rejected as being a hacked Pokemon. But since we tried to be as close to the original as possible, it gets through without problems. The program now sees it as a legit Pokemon and now where getting to the point, where the magic happens: a converter tool gets our Pokemon file, disassembles it, retrieving every bit of information and writes it into a new file. After that it lands in on of the boxes on your account, ready to be transferred to your Gen 6 game.

A legal (hacked) Pokemon went through evaluation processes and an official tool created a new Pokemon file. Since it's an official tool, which created the file, it's like getting an event Pokemon from an official download event. Or to put it into other words: we traded a legal (hacked) Pokemon for a legit (official) Pokemon.

If someone asks you wheather your Pokemon is legit or not, you can say either Yes, or no, without lying. It's a legit Gen 6 mon, but you used a hacked Gen 5 mon in order to get it. In the end it's a matter of perspective, do you want it to be seen as legit, or as legal (hacked)? It's your choice.

But what about illegal Pokemon that got through Pokebank? Shouldn't they also be considered as legit? The answer: as long as it keeps one of it's illegal traits, it stays illegal. The thing is: as we used a legal Pokemon there were no illegal trades that could be detected as illegal, so if there was a newer tool, that would detect, let's say, wheather a Pokemon can have a certain move, or not it could still be detected as hacked. For example there's now way to get a legit Gible with Sheer Cold, so if such a tool existed, it would mark it as hacked.

-----
Tbh I'm not a fan of third party devices as tools used to hack a Pokemon game. They are not only fiddling with the RAM which can potentially damage at least your save file, but also making everything a little bit too easy. I also don't know anything about RNGing, so I can't really say too much about. If I had to guess, I'd say it's kinda similar to competitive battles, but instead of predicting an opponents move, you're just predicting a certain Pokemon to appear, that could be shiny, or have certain IVs (or both).

Cloning is (probably; I'm guessing again) more like save abuse, which doesn't neccessarily mean that you intended to do it. Maybe something stupid happened and after that you just realized, that there's suddenly a second version of your Pokemon? I mean, who can tell?

As for other people using hacking devices...I don't care, it's their game and as long as they don't try to screw me over, by using Lvl 100 Uber mons against me in a battle that's supposed to have a levelcap (meaning mine get their levels cut to level 50, while theirs remain at level 100), they can hack to their hearts content.

 

[Hiatus]

Although hacking does make it easy to modify Pokémon to your needs, somewhat, nowadays, I tend to stay away from them.

Years ago, when Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald were still an ongoing thing, my friend used to have an Action Replay device, which she had allowed me to use once or two. Thanks to it, I've been able to maximize some of my Pokémon stats, and battling with them wound up to be very fun. Though, I kept them only to myself, and didn't usually utilize outside, such as when battling against a friend.

Though, as time went on, I began to grow disappointed in those Pokémon (among many other things), as it wasn't me who've trained them, per se; they were more or less created by some cheating device. Afterward, I haven't really found myself using things like this to edit Pokémon any longer. Did use them once or twice when playing on emulators, actually, but not on consoles.

Personally, however, even though I don't necessarily enjoy hacking, I don't exactly mind when others do it. Though, it does bother me a bit when their things wind up affecting my game, somehow, but if it doesn't, none of it is a problem. As for legitimate hacking--modifying Pokémon to make them seem as if they were trained people, by making them not have an unaccountable range stats, moves, or ability--I'm not sure if anybody would be able to find it to be an issue, and neither could I.

 

[Kenchiin]

I just find boring cheats.
If I like to see a Shiny Mew I Google it, I don't feel any better of having a hacked Pokemon.


Regarding Pokemon being created via hacks, but still being legitimate for use... Well, they don't do any harm. I enjoy the process of training and playing Pokemon. For me it's not just about winning battles, so I don't really see the point.
Not my problem anyway.

 

[Musicality]

Definitely. As the above users have said, it's pretty much common opinion that you can do whatever you want with your Pokemon, the grey area is when you come to the trading area. I personally can tolerate cloning, because it's a copy of a Pokemon that you worked hard for.

Technically, a lot of things we do now would be considered "hacking" if you really wanted to put it that way, R.F. IVs and EVs would be hacking, because the use of an IV calculator to see something that's not intended for your eyes will result in you having an unfair advantage because someone else can't / dosen't know about IVs, for example.

It actually comes down to your purpose. When you're playing in a competitive environment vs being a collector, your own set of values would differ as such.

 

[Zehn]

I only cheat to unlock the wifi event. Since I live in the uk I never get access to them so it is easier just to uses cheats to access the event and use my legit stuff to complete the event.

 

[Musicality]

I only cheat to unlock the wifi event. Since I live in the uk I never get access to them so it is easier just to uses cheats to access the event and use my legit stuff to complete the event.

That's pretty much what most people do. But I know a few people (myself included) that prefer to get the events legitimately for collection and self-bragging purposes. So I hunt down legitimate events not to brag to anyone else but rather to get that invaluable personal feeling of accomplishment.

 

[Hiatus]

I remember using cheats to unlock Wi-Fi event Pokémon before, but that was only via emulator, so that I could see how it's like to be getting a hold of them and whatnot; due to this, I wasn't able to have them transferred.

Anyway, like Musicality, I could also tolerate cloning, due to all reasons that have been stated thus far.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

No....but I don't really have an issue with people cheating event legendaries as long as they don't try to trade them off.

Also I don't mind clones at all. Frankly it's difficult enough to get event pokemon, so them being cloned wouldn't turn me off.

The main thing I don't like are illegal movesets, illegal stats or illegal information.(pokemon caught where they shouldn't be etc) Anything that would corrupt someones game is a big no no too, naturally.