The PokéCommunity Official Suspect Discussion Thread

[Anti]

PokéCommunity OU Suspect Discussion Thread​

Introduction

Instead of having separate threads for every suspect, they have all been compiled here, where we can discuss any of the old suspects, new suspects, or potential suspects. When you post, be sure to talk about the suspect that is being discussed in at least part of your post so that this thread doesn't turn into a mess of random opinions about all of the suspects.

The most important rule of this thread is to follow the definition of Uber quoted below. If you want to make a case for any of these suspects being either OU or Uber, please be sure your thesis is focused around at least one of the three characteristics. If you simply throw out "no counters" or anything like that, your post will be deleted. If you throw out "no counters" and explain why that makes the suspect Uber based on the Offensive Characteristic, then we won't mind. Also, if you aren't really making a case for either side and are just throwing ideas out there, don't feel too restricted by this. We're only going to crack down on those who ignore the new definition of Uber while making an argument that something should be OU or Uber.

Here are the three characteristics:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Again, connect your opinion to one or more of these three or we reserve the right to delete your post. I'm going to be keeping a very close eye on this thread, and I won't hesitate to close it if it gets out of hand. Let's make this a positive, intelligent, and fun discussion!

The Suspects

*image removed*
---Deoxys-D---

Current Tier: Uber
Typing: Psychic
Ability: Pressure
Base Stats:
HP: 50
Atk: 70
Def: 160
Spd: 90
SAtk: 70
SDef: 160

Relevant Characteristics

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Why is Deoxys-D a suspect?

Deoxys-D isn't an official suspect like the other Pokémon on this list. It has a support movepool that makes even Smeargle green with envy and the defenses to abuse it. Still, its defenses have been criticized as being underwhelming for something that is Uber, so a few people have been calling for it to be tested. It can be anything from a Pressure abuser to a mixed wall to a Spiker, so it can do a lot of things for any team. Still, it is up for discussion, and it took a long time for Deoxys-S to be banned, and Deoxys-D lacks the Speed of its alternate form to get up screens as quickly (even though 90 base Speed is by no means slow).

*image removed*
---Deoxys-S---

Current Tier: Uber
Typing: Psychic
Ability: Pressure
Base Stats:
HP: 50
Atk: 95
Def: 90
Spd: 180
SAtk: 95
SDef: 90

Relevant Characteristics

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Why is Deoxys-S a suspect?

Deoxys-S was OU for a long time, and most people didn't think that it fit the offensive characteristic despite being a wonderful late-game sweeper and revenge killer. What pushed it back into the Uber tier was its dual screen lead set, which was a dominant lead that could give any offensive team a huge advantage. It also has the same insane movepool that Deoxys-D does, so it's quite a diverse Pokémon. Even though it is a dominant lead, there are a lot of new ways to stop it, so Deoxys-S is certainly a Pokémon to bring up for discussion.

*image removed*
---Garchomp---

Current Tier: Uber
Typing: Dragon / Ground
Ability: Sand Veil
Base Stats:
HP: 108
Atk: 130
Def: 95
Spd: 102
SAtk: 80
SDef: 85

Relevant Characteristics

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Why is Garchomp a suspect?

He's back! Garchomp is up for discussion once more. It makes a fearsome physical sweeper and revenge killer, but the metagame has changed since it departed, mostly due to Platinum updates. Whether or not these changes would be nice to Garchomp should it be tested again is what is really important here, since the vote to ban it was fairly decisive. Still, there was opposition, and if the new metagame would hurt Garchomp, it could be a fair Pokémon to be tested as a suspect once again, which is why it is up for discussion once more. Still, I have no intention of letting Garchomp dominate this topic, so try talking about more recent suspects first.

*image removed*
---Latias---

Current Tier: OU / Uber
Typing: Dragon / Psychic
Ability: Levitate
Base Stats:
HP: 80
Atk: 80
Def: 90
Spd: 110
SAtk: 110
SDef: 130

Relevant Characteristics

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Why is Latias a suspect?

Without Soul Dew, Latias was very recently brought down to the OU tier as a solid special sweeper and defensive team supporter. While she's not the offensive threat Latios is, it still makes a very scary one, and it can switch in on more Pokémon while taking less damage than her brother. She can also pass Wish and run a defensive Calm Mind set, something Latios can't do as well as her. Still, there are a fair amount of people that think Latias should be Uber for the threat it poses as both a sweeper and supporter, so she is up for discussion.

NOTE: Latias will be tested at a later time with Soul Dew, so you can discuss that as well.

*image removed*
---Latios---

Current Tier: Uber
Typing: Dragon / Psychic
Ability: Levitate
Base Stats:
HP: 80
Atk: 90
Def: 80
Spd: 110
SAtk: 130
SDef: 110

Relevant Characteristics

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Why is Latios a suspect?

Latios is a mighty offensive force, even without Soul Dew. If he were to be unbanned, he would have the strongest Draco Meteor in the whole OU metagame. He's powerful and can cripple special walls with Trick, but he does have trouble with some Tyranitar and Pursuit in general. He also doesn't get its Soul Dew boost, making its stats more acceptable. One must not forget what a good supporter Latios can be though, as he runs a dual screen + Memento set very effectively. He can also run a Dragon Dance set to throw off Blissey without having to use Trick. Still, he isn't powerful enough to be granted Uber decisively, so Latios (without Soul Dew) is up for discussion.

---Manaphy---

Current Tier: Uber
Typing: Water
Ability: Hydration
Base Stats:
HP: 100
Atk: 100
Def: 100
Spd: 100
SAtk: 100
SDef: 100

Relevant Characteristics

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Why is Manaphy a suspect?

With Tail Glow, Hydration, and Rain Dance, Manaphy has always been thought of as a threat too powerful for the OU metagame. However, the testing of traditional Uber Pokémon like the Lati@s and Deoxys-S has challenged the traditional view on Manaphy, and it's Smogon's latest suspect. Manaphy can abuse Rain Dance very effectively, but it is restricted by moveslot syndrome, which is a common argument against it. Its Special Attack and Speed stats aren't very overwhelming either, and given its status as Smogon's latest suspect, Manaphy is obviously going to be up for discussion as well.

---Shaymin-S (AKA Skymin)---

Current Tier: Limbo
Typing: Grass / Flying
Ability: Serene Grace
Base Stats:
HP: 100
Atk: 103
Def: 75
Spd: 127
SAtk: 120
SDef: 75

Relevant Characteristics

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Why is Shaymin-S a suspect?

Shaymin-S is weak to the omnipresent Stealth Rock and Sandstorm, but it is very fast and has a lot of power. The vote on Smogon was so close that it was put in Limbo until it could be revisited later. With Serene Grace, Skymin can abuse the flinch chance of its Flying STAB, Air Slash, and the Special Defense drop chance of its Grass STAB, Seed Flare. Skymin can also SubSeed and use Earth Power to hurt the likes of Heatran and Metagross. Some want it Uber because of how hard it is to avoid the luck it can win with, while others want it OU for being an underwhelming offensive threat when it doesn't get lucky. Add this to its shaky status right now, and it is obvious why Shaymin-S is up for discussion.

 

[Jake♫]

Okay, so I'll do a run-down on each of the Pokemon on here.

Deoxys-D: This should DEFINITELY be tested in the OU metagame. It's defenses are great, but its low base HP and it's sub-par speed cripple it to be the fantastic supporter it needs to be, as well as a successful walls. It's defenses make up for it a little, but the rest of it's stats are just too low. Plus, it is usually completely Taunt weak.

Deoxys-s: Leave it in the Uber metagame. Although the lead is Taunt weak, it is ALWAYS able to get off a SR/Screen on the first move (Unless there's like a Choice Scarf Aerodactyl, but honestly, who would ever use that?), making that set already too deadly. From experience with using it as a revenge killer, I was able to down at least 2 Pokemon on the other team 95% of the time, which is what it is made for, but it verges on ridiculous.

Garchomp: I want this thing test, ASAP. With the advent of the Platinum metagame, it is extremely easy to revenge kill/defend against it. Will it still be powerful? Yes. Unstoppable as before? Heck no.

Latias: Wait a second, didn't we just do this? Honestly, Soul Dew Latias needs to stay in Ubers. It just puts its offenses too high, and with matching high defense, it's overpowered. Without Soul Dew, however, it is fine in the OU metagame. Nothing overpowered about it. A lot of physical attackers can outspeed and get it off the field fast enough, but special attackers have a problem. If that was the logic, wouldn't Blissey be in the Ubers as well?

Latios: With or without Soul Dew, I honestly think it should remain in the Uber metagame. It just has so many possibilities to run, and with such high offenses, it can stop so many Pokemon. It's support options make it no slouch defensively either, and a base 80/110 defense stats are not bad at all.

Manaphy: Testing should be done here for sure. Without Rain Dance, it can still attempt to set up a sweep, but it doesn't have much of a shot for it, as most Pokemon can come in and kill it. With the Rain, it is a ridiculous thing to deal with, but anything that can outspeed it and has Thunder/Thunderbolt (AKA Specs Jolt) can drive it off the field easily enough.

Shaymin-S: Stay in Ubers please. Better known as Haxmin, with Serene Grace, it just isn't much of a fair fight. It can take out Blissey in a matter of seconds with the 60% shot of knocking its SpD down 2 notches, and on top of that Flinch it to death. It is just too hard to stop, and not even some of the best revenge killers can come in fast enough to kill it. With proper prediction, it is "ololol 6-0'd you olololo"

 

[Anti]

Deoxys-D: This should DEFINITELY be tested in the OU metagame. It's defenses are great, but its low base HP and it's sub-par speed cripple it to be the fantastic supporter it needs to be, as well as a successful walls. It's defenses make up for it a little, but the rest of it's stats are just too low. Plus, it is usually completely Taunt weak.

How the HELL is 90 base Speed bad on a wall/support Pokemon? Taunt weak doesn't matter...it's not like you're throing this out against lead Aerodactyl and going "have at him!" >_> That's like saying "Well CB Flygon can't do anything because there's always the possibility of CB Mamoswine switching in on the same turn." It doesn't work that way.

Deoxys-s: Leave it in the Uber metagame. Although the lead is Taunt weak, it is ALWAYS able to get off a SR/Screen on the first move (Unless there's like a Choice Scarf Aerodactyl, but honestly, who would ever use that?), making that set already too deadly. From experience with using it as a revenge killer, I was able to down at least 2 Pokemon on the other team 95% of the time, which is what it is made for, but it verges on ridiculous.

What is with all of this Taunt weak nonsense? Is DDMence Taunt weak because it's slower than Azelf and Azelf can stop it from DDing or something?

Also, with the revenge killer, it's a late-game sweeper, so taking out 2-3 Pokemon every match should actually be pretty common. That doesn't mean it's broken >_<

Garchomp: I want this thing test, ASAP. With the advent of the Platinum metagame, it is extremely easy to revenge kill/defend against it. Will it still be powerful? Yes. Unstoppable as before? Heck no.

...How so? How is it less daunting than before? Two of its primary revenge killers, Deoxys-S and ScarfGar, were banned or fell in usage dramatically, respectively. Nothing has really stepped up to fulfill their spot. That doesn't make any sense @_@

Latias: Wait a second, didn't we just do this? Honestly, Soul Dew Latias needs to stay in Ubers. It just puts its offenses too high, and with matching high defense, it's overpowered. Without Soul Dew, however, it is fine in the OU metagame. Nothing overpowered about it. A lot of physical attackers can outspeed and get it off the field fast enough, but special attackers have a problem. If that was the logic, wouldn't Blissey be in the Ubers as well?

Soul Dew Latias and Specs Latias have the same SAtk score. How one can be overpowered but one perfectly fine I fail to grasp. What I'm saying is that your reasons for Latias being not broken in OUs actually apply to Soul Dew as well @_@

Latios: With or without Soul Dew, I honestly think it should remain in the Uber metagame. It just has so many possibilities to run, and with such high offenses, it can stop so many Pokemon. It's support options make it no slouch defensively either, and a base 80/110 defense stats are not bad at all.

But, like with the others, you're just kind of rephrasing what I said in the "why is Pokemon X a suspect?" section. This is stuff we already know so -_-

Manaphy: Testing should be done here for sure. Without Rain Dance, it can still attempt to set up a sweep, but it doesn't have much of a shot for it, as most Pokemon can come in and kill it. With the Rain, it is a ridiculous thing to deal with, but anything that can outspeed it and has Thunder/Thunderbolt (AKA Specs Jolt) can drive it off the field easily enough.

"Most Pokemon" would be...? SpecsJolt is the only Thunderbolt that's going to be KOing it, even an unboosted Raikou Thunderbolt Manaphy survives with a fair amount of health...and being stopped by a few things doesn't mean you're not broken. Deoxys-A is stopped by Metagross and Spiritomb. Deoxys-A is broken.

Shaymin-S: Stay in Ubers please. Better known as Haxmin, with Serene Grace, it just isn't much of a fair fight. It can take out Blissey in a matter of seconds with the 60% shot of knocking its SpD down 2 notches, and on top of that Flinch it to death. It is just too hard to stop, and not even some of the best revenge killers can come in fast enough to kill it. With proper prediction, it is "ololol 6-0'd you olololo"

About that...Blissey still wins even with a SDef drop. Seriously, if this thing doesn't get its luck, it dies in a second (much faster than Blissey ever will). Garchomp is a hell of a lot harder to revenge kill than this is (since 99% of revenge killers run Choice Scarf which makes its 127 base Speed pretty low) since it doesn't have Yache Berry to protect it. How something that has trouble with several top Pokemon in usage (Zapdos, Blissey, Heatran, Metagross, etc.) somehow is a 6-0 machine baffles me.

Now I'm not going to take any kind of action (besides this post) for what you just posted because I wasn't clear enough. This thread is only for an in-depth discussion, not giving us your opinion and giving us good/bad traits of the Pokemon (depending on your stance) that we already know. The point of this is, for lack of a better way of putting this, wall-of-text responses with very insightful thoughts/opinions on on one given suspect at a time. This thread isn't for listing your opinions on each suspect in a short paragraph and passing it off as an argument. We could do that, but it wouldn't get us anywhere. You have to back up what you're saying with some really solid stuff that you can connect to your thesis.

 

[ABYAY]

I gave you (Anti) my simple reasons through PM because I was unsure why you even PM'd it to me. I was guessing you wanted me to place my opinions, so if you want to copy/paste them here to counter-quote (ignore my Skymin response), then go ahead. Otherwise, I'll leave them private to you.

 

[Anti]

I gave you (Anti) my simple reasons through PM because I was unsure why you even PM'd it to me. I was guessing you wanted me to place my opinions, so if you want to copy/paste them here to counter-quote (ignore my Skymin response), then go ahead. Otherwise, I'll leave them private to you.

Sorry, should have made that more clear on Shoddy a few days ago. Basically, I wanted any errors and stuff to be checked over since I suck at that myself. You don't have to post unless you want to.

 

[Aquilae]

Garchomp's base attack is 130.

Dragon Dance Latios isn't going to get past Blissey anytime soon. Dragon Claw fails to 2HKO while Blissey can just Twave it and send in a Steel type to take the Dragon Claw and subsequently deal with it. If you make the argument that Blissey cannot do much to DDLatios except for Twave, Twave is crippling enough for DDLatios. Furthermore with its mediocre attack power it isn't sweeping teams anytime soon, and with DDMence being used regularly most teams would have ways to deal with DDMence that would work against DDLatios.

I don't see how Manaphy has "moveslot syndrome". It is already very powerful if it runs Rain Dance / Rest / Surf / Tail Glow, and without Kingdra or a Water Absorber it is hard to stop it from dealing significant damage. Revenge-killers like SpecsJolt also cannot switch in directly.

If I remember correctly, Manaphy can only be OHKO'ed on a constant basis by Abomasnow Wood Hammer, SpecsJolt Thunderbolt, Shaymin Seed Flare and Pikachu / Raichu Volt Tackle. This attests to Manaphy's good defensive stats and typing, and it can take down quite a few pokemon before falling. The introduction of Manaphy into the metagame also increases the amount of Rain Dance teams, on the Suspect Ladder many teams run Rain Dance or Sandstorm teams, so much so that the metagame may become centered around Rain Dance and countering Rain Dance. I cannot say what might happen when it settles down but I predict Bulky Grounds' usage will be down significantly and Rain Dance sweepers like Kingdra, Kabutops, and the respective counters Toxicroak, Vaporeon to name a few, would see big rises in usage. Manaphy has Tail Glow which automatically makes it a sizeable threat to deal with, it can run a full sweeper set (@LO, TG / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / HP Elec) and perform considerably well, it can counter Rain Dance teams and act as a bulky water of sorts. One that is capable of boosting its stats to obscene levels. Platinum isn't a huge change to D/P, and not many revenge-killers / counters to Manaphy have been introduced, so I predict it will remain Uber.

Shaymin-S is not weak to Sandstorm, it is vulnerable to Sandstorm.

Shaymin-S looks great on paper but its Stealth Rock weakness, combined with its fraility make it hard for it to switch in and subsequently pull off a sweep. Scizor, a common revenge-killer hits it for a lot of damage, and ScarfTran easily disposes of it. 60% chance isn't high at all, by my standards it is quite low. 60% chance to flinch evidently isn't broken, so I don't think that is a valid point for Skymin's Uber-ness. I also feel that Seed Flare is overrated, Grass is a horrible attacking type, Seed Flare has only 8 PP meaning that it presents many opportunities for opposing revenge-killers like ScarfTran to switch in, and its PP can be sapped rather quickly. Furthermore spamming Seed Flare on an LO Skymin is going to make you lose potentially 16% a turn, and most likely the opponent would have a Grass resist so it isn't worth it. Subseeding also isn't really viable, with LO you're killing yourself, with Leftovers you simply don't have enough power to damage the offensive tanks that switch in. Stall teams can simply phaze you away, next time you come in you'd be taking 25% from Stealth Rock. I've faced against and used Skymin before, and I can say that it is quite overrated, I've been able to deal with opponent Skymin quite easily, and the Skymin that I use are dead weight to my team. I predict it would remain OU.

 

[Pokedra]

Latias with Soul Dew is probably Uber. A SpAtk and SpD without setting up is awesome and can be further boosted by CM. It means 252 SpAtk/0 SpD Timid Latias starts off with about 450 SpAtk and 420 SpD. Add on one CM and both stats are over the 600's after one turn. Latias in OU is fine but with Soul Dew it's very powerful and maybe broken.

I personally think Skymin is a bit overatted. People are going off yelling about it can drop your SpD two stages 60% of the time. It's SR weak, has below average defenses and can't really come in on anything bar Ground moves. Sandstorm weak doesn't help it either. If it comes in and attacks while Stealth Rock is up it takes LO damage+2 turns of Sandstorm+SR = 48% and also consider the fact that the other Pokemon will attack back or status it. People are harping on how it can beat Blissey, it does 30% damage with the first hit and most Blissey carry Ice Beam which will hit it for a OHKO. Blissey can also status it TW leaving it at mercy for sweepers.

Skymin is a good Pokemon no doubt and it can sweep very well but its a bit too hyped. But meh OU or Uber I don't really care =/

 

[SkyPioneer]

I'm no expert, but since this thread is here, why not.
Deoxys D is an awesome toxi-stall wall. With Dual Screens and recover, it will be standing for a while, despite to poor HP. And if something with Taunt or a steel type comes in, it still can pseudo pass the dual screens to something else.
This set here, it's the one I speak of, but it gets shut down by taunt really easily.
Deoxys D @ Leftovers/Light Clay (probably lefties)
252 HP, 128 Def 128 SpDef
-Reflect/Light Screen
-Reflect/Light Screen/Taunt/Spikes
-Recover
-Attacking move of your choice( Toxic, Night Shade, Knock off, etc)

Yeah, pretty Blissey weak, but it's not too bad. Nature is at your discretion.
Here are some quick calculations.
Choice Banded Tyranitar with 252 attack evs and adamant nature's Crunch attack:
Without Reflect: 81.58% - 96.05%
With Reflect: 40.79% - 48.03%
Same Tyranitar's pursuit
Without switching: 41.78% - 49.01% With Screens: 20.72% - 24.67%
Whilst switching: Same as Crunch, I guess.

So the calculations don't really support my argument. I think CB tar would be quite common in ubers (I don't know really, I don't play ubers as often as I do OU) with all the psychic types running around.
So yeah. Nice novelty wall I suppose, but ripped by common Pokemon such as Tar, Blissey and Cross.

 

[Brown]

The thing that made garchomp crazy, if I recall, were the sand storm teams that abused his ability. Chomp never threatend me, then again, when he was in town every team had a Chomp counter and Chomp preparations ^^; I say he stays uber. There he can rest like mew :3 (Too good for the OU, not seen much in Ubers)

Skymin only 6-0's teams that have no clue what's going on xD
I remember when he first came out and my teams got swept away, it was like "O_O wtfhax...". Once I got a feel for him he would only get 1 kill in, 2 max. As previously stated, SR ripps him; and Ice Shard destroys him. Not saying that all teams need to run ice shard with him around :P I say he makes a come back. I could be wrong, but Skymin's not that haxed.
If there's a problem with pokemon looking epic, and being epic; then you can keep him in Ubers xD

 

[.]

@ boo836

I don't know what kind of post that was. It seemed you relied on damage calculations and deeming things "countered" or "revenge killers", which is an awfully flawed way to look at something. First off, for SpecsMence, how the hell does it counter Manaphy when it gains a Speed tie with Manaphy, and risks getting OHKOed by Ice Beam? Same for Zapdos, who is even worse since Stealth Rock weakness and failure to outspeed Manaphy without a Timid nature, even then it fails to OHKO. Plus, having to Scarf it sucks since Jolteon does the same thing with Specs / Life Orb, except it DOES gain the OHKO.

Onto Gyarados, what the hell do you mean Gyarados "revenge killed" ? Unboosted Ice Beam 3HKOs, and +2 LO Ice Beam 2HKOs. Manaphy gets killed by Stone Edge / Earthquake faster than Gyarados is killed by Ice Beam. Let's not forget that Gyarados outspeeds and 2HKOs Manaphy with Stone Edge, while Manaphy fails to KO even with a crit.

Scizor and Tran make sense, but I don't know what kind of player switches either of those into Manaphy, when there are things like Ludicolo, Abomasnow, etc...who all come in and force Manaphy out. Abomasnow gets special mention since it OHKOs Manaphy with a Choice Banded Woodhammer, of course, I wouldn't want to be "overcentralizing".

 

[Anti]

Manaphy: I personally think that after tests it may be deemed Uber, but prehaps OU. After 1 Tail glow, it reaches 656 special attack. (Max Evs, + Nature) It also has Hydration to abuse, and with something like LO, it could rest off damage, getting to full AND clearing you of status AND you can still be able to hit after with what you want. Oh, and Tail Glow + Rain Dance + STAB+ LO Surfs= guaranteed pain on anything that it doesn't resist. It also outspeeds things like Breloom, Lucario, Gyarados and ties with Salamence, Jirachi, Celebi, Zapdos and Shaymin. And if your opponent has Ice Beam > Rain Dance because they have other Rain Dance support, then those pokes need to run + Speed to tie IF manaphy has + Speed too. But being easily revenge killed usually, it may become OU.

Choice Specs Salamence + Special attack nature Draco Meteor vs. 6 hp neutral nature 0 spdef Manaphy:

97.66% MIN

Specs Mence= Revenge Killer


And if Specs Mence is a possible revenge killer, then so is Band Mence.


Scarf Zapdos Timid 252 Thunderbolt vs. 6 hp 0 spdef neutral Manaphy:

Min: 89.47%

Scarf Zappy= Revenge Killer


Modest Manaphy 252 Ice beam LO boost vs 80 hp 0 spdef neutral zapdos:

Min: 83.85%

252 spatt modest LO Manaphy's Ice beam Vs. 148 HP 0 spdef neutral Latias:

Min: 58.58% Max: 69.23%

252 spatt Modest LO Manaphy's Ice beam Vs. 4 hp Neutral 0 spdef gyarados:

Min: 37.16% Max: 43.81%


Edit:


252 attack adamant Gyarados Stone edge vs. 4 hp 0 def neutral Manaphy:

Min: 40.94% Max: 48.25%

Gyarados= Revenge Killed


252 spatt modest +2 LO Manaphy's Surf vs. 252 spdef calm 6 hp Blissey:

Min: 33.13% Max: 39.11%

In Rain: Min: 49.39% Max: 58.13%


252 att Adamant Technitian CB Scizor's Bullet Punch vs. 4 hp 0 def neutral manaphy:

Min: 23.75% Max: 28.15%

252 spatt Modest LO Surf from Manaphy vs. 252 hp scizor 0 spdef neutral scizor:

Min: 64.53% Max: 76.16%

Scizor= Countered

252 spatt neutral Earth Power from Heatran vs. 6 hp 0 spdef neutral Manaphy:

Min: 29.03% Max: 34.31%

Hp Grass:

Min: 45.03% Max: 53.22%

252 spatt Modest LO Manaphy's surf vs. 6 hp 0 spdef Naive Heatran:

Min: 120.37% Max: 142.59%

Heatran= Not a revenge killer. ( Not countered though)


With that being some of the top threats, it seems that Manaphy is revenge killed by about two Pokemon, proving my idea of it being easy to revenge kill. Manaphy can take on basicly any attack that it resists and hit whatever it can very hard if the opponent doesn't resist.

What Vance said. You can't just throw out two uncommon, SR weak Pokemon as revenge killers and somehow draw the conclusion that Manaphy is easily revenge killed because of it. Manaphy can run a Timid nature to beta base 100s like Salamence anyway -_- In other words, please read the first post. You can't throw together that and call it an argument for Manaphy to go to either tier. Revenge killers is an even worse argument than counters when it stands alone. I'm deleting your post, and if you post again, please make sure that your post contains a logical and well thought-out argument.

 

[_Prince_]

I'll have a go at this

Deoxys-D: No comment, I don't have enough experience here

Deoxys-s: umm I'd reckon it's OU beacuse dualscreens are quite to hard to pull off with platinum bringing in all the trickers. As for its other sets it's not so threatening and is OU material.

Garchomp: As much I love Garchomp to stay in OU, just gotta say no. SD yache berry sent it packing to ubers. The thing with Garchomp is that you know its typical set and still it ends up destorying your team. =/

Latias: Yeah I suppose it's OU, although it has a quite a wide movepool, yet I don't think it's putting a dent in OU.

Latios: hmm depends how you look at it. In the suspect ladder latios caused the metagame to centralise around dragon/steel. From what I remember it isn't able to sweep teams as it's fellow uber dragon garchomp. I used a jolly scarf T-tar, I was able to revenge kill it 99% of the time. :P What I noticed is that you need a pursuit user to take out Latios most of the time. Although CB mamoswine iceshard scores a KO, the mix set is awlful IMO doesn't pack enough power. Physical set is nice to take out blissey, but stuck in outrage isn't good! Latios has decent couters&checks ie metagross, T-tar, bronzong, Jiarchi, Scizor, blissey

Manaphy: I'm testing this out right now in the suspect! This is hard, you could say Manaphy causes the metagame to centralise around rain/raindance teams. No comment yet, I need to fully test Manaphy to come to a conclusion.

Shaymin-S: This thing is just overhyped!!!!! Shaymin- s is no way good as people say it is. If it doesn't strike lucky, it's game over for the fox with wings. As much as Aquilae has already stated the stealthrock weakness, SS hurts it, Lifeorb just damanges it more.
What are the odds of beating blissey when it switches in, I think it's like 11%. The other 90% of the time blissey will beat Shaymin-s. Shaymin-s has decent checks - heatran, zapdos, crobat, blissey, registeel, regice, metagross, bronzong, scizor to some degree and even dragonite lol! Quite a long list to keep all of its sets in place. About the hax people compain about often, hax is part of the game, isn't it? lets ban Togekiss, Jarachi! So, Paraflinch doesn't cause you any pain, wrong? I'm sure skymin was voted uber almost beacuse of its ability. If something like Salamence is new to the metagame there's no doubt that people would have questioned it uber, people just didn't want to adapt to the metagame skymin was in. ._.

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

I say what I think: for example Garchomp is good sweeper of support for the chains of sweeper in the offensive teams, I don't like to see it forbidden in the metagame OU. And also the principal revenge killer of Lucario, Pokémon with every probability more dangerous (priority move, practically necessity of zero support for sweeping).
Chomp is not uber, but it is a Pokémon that drastically modifies the metagame.

 

[Dark Azelf]

In light of this thread, Anti said that this thread can be bumped.

So yeah enjoy, i guess lol

 

[Anti]

K, moved this to the Shoddy Lounge.

A few things to note:

Don't discuss Deoxys-D. Kind of useless to discuss since we don't know if it will be tested yet and it's not in the stage 3 suspect metagame.

Also, I'll be more lenient than I originally intended. Just don't say anything ridiculous, and refer to one of the three characteristics.

 

[Ársa]

Bronzong leads have skyrocketed from what I've seen, trying to halt the Deoxys-E screen lead that sent it to Ubers previously.