Chit-Chat: Welcome to the Strategies & Movesets forum for Sun & Moon!

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Yeah banning baton pass as a whole seems silly.

Its easy to stop even when you dont really prepare for it. :/ Espeon is their only defense against a fast Taunt and they have little way in effect of stopping offensive juggernauts like Charizard, Garchomp etc. Trick/Encore also ruins them. You also have various Phazing methods.

The only thing i can think of that influence it in the ban camps favor would be the crit nerf, but i digress.

I think something like "Baton (P)Ass clause: No more than <insert arbitrary number less than 6> pokes per team with the move Baton Pass" would be better than a flat out ban.

Removing short BP chains (for example: Quiver Dance Venomoth ----> Heatran) as well as full long BP chain teams really seems well a little....restrictive and frankly, much.
 
I certainly hope no one simply bans BP altogether, which is to say that they ban the move. That's overly restrictive.

I don't think "it's easy to stop" is a good argument. Yeah, I win many games against BP too, but I don't see how that's really relevant when this is a question of competitiveness rather than brokenness. Even so, I do want to point out that if you're dismissing it so easily, you've probably never played against a good player using it? I realize this might seem contradictory to my "no skill" assertion, but I don't think so--you have to be a D+ level player or higher to win with BP (not even close to true of offense, balance, or even stall), but being an A-level player sure doesn't hurt.

Anyway, just figured I'd reiterate the "why should anyone care if full BP chains get nerfed?" point. It's not like it adds to the metagame, and I get the principle behind "just prepare for it better," but when stall starts running things like Haze Quagsire (lol) to beat it, it's probably better to just remove the playstyle because it's not like those I listed earlier. If people started calling to remove Chansey or Clefable or something because of stall, I'd be right there with you, but BP doesn't add anything to the metagame being a cynical, robotic, and downright obnoxious playstyle. I agree that it's restrictive, any ban is, but I can't see how that restriction is harmful really.

Also you is mentioning the crit nerf is telling as it acknowledges how that's how many teams have to beat the chains if the opponent isn't totally inept.

ilu bb <3
 
I have played against good players using it. Both with stall and (shock) offense.

Ironically the offensive team i was using i just threw random crap together i didnt even prepare for it. Baton Pass simple cant set up on powerful sweepers. Baton Pass cant switch into anything remotely powerful ranging from things like Greninja to mega pinsir to Garchomp to Charizard-X/Y. :/

Stall is stall and i dont think i need to point out how that went. I didnt use Haze btw lol.
 
Anecdotal evidence is not very compelling. Unless BP magically becomes competitive in the sense that the battle isn't determined 98% of the time by team matchup, I just don't see the relevance of "Charizard-Y beats BP!" (And let's be real: if BP was as easy to beat as you're implying, no one would care about it.)
 
I don't think that Baton Pass needs a ban that bad. It's not like BP teams are really common.
 
Anti said:
Anecdotal evidence is not very compelling. Unless BP magically becomes competitive in the sense that the battle isn't determined 98% of the time by team matchup, I just don't see the relevance of "Charizard-Y beats BP!" (And let's be real: if BP was as easy to beat as you're implying, no one would care about it.)
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Isnt every match determined by team match up? Most teams/people suck vs stall. Stall also follows an algorithm the same as Baton Pass allegedly does i.e "uncompetitive". I (and some of the best stall players have said this too) literally go into auto pilot with stall lol. Id argue Baton Pass takes more skill because if they lead with something like Charizard-X turn one....oops gg you lose, you cant Iron Defense/Acid Armour pass and it runs through your whole team. Its not just Charizard X which does this. Also before you say, yes ive both used and battled top 20 ladder BP teams with stall, offense and my own BP. I won the majority of those matches. If you keep up offensive pressure and play smartly the matches are easy. With stall, if you dont run some sort of win condition i.e Curse/Perish Song/Taunt/Haze etc your team isnt very good and you lose to stuff like last poke/Clefable regardless.

Id actually point at the general skill of ladder players and their teambuilding abilities if BP is an issue. Its often been said the skill level of the ladder is generally poor, but i digress. Im not saying BP isnt a good play style, it is good...when it works, however it has some fundamental flaws which ive outlined. However the assumption it takes no skill is absolutely a ridiculous opinion and id argue whoever says this hasnt used it themselves. It does take skill, more than most playstyles. This isnt like Moody where the match turns into pot luck. It can be defeated with relative ease when you prepare for it (which ill talk about later). If you cant beat unboosted Pokemon from turn 1, id argue your team doesnt have much offensive prowess (or you simply dont prepare for stat boosters well enough, this applies in the case of defensive teams) and it will struggle against other teams archetypes too, especially those that lean defensively towards BO/Stall and will struggle to break them which as ive said is why most people suck against stall too. That or your team just presents far too many opportunities for free turns and set ups, again its not just Baton Pass that will make you pay for this.

I just don't see the relevance of "Charizard-Y beats BP!
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Its quite relevant when it OHKO's every Pokemon with access to Baton Pass and 2hko's even with a +1 SP.Def boost. There are alot of other Pokemon which do do the same not just Charizard-Y. Which brings me to this;

And let's be real: if BP was as easy to beat as you're implying, no one would care about it.)
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The stigma against BP is a huge problem ive noticed, especially when looking at it from a rational standpoint, and the ragequits, forfeits, and un-willingness to change so that you can easily beat BP are also an issue.
 
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Ah yes, the old "failure to adapt" argument. Should we unleash SwagPlay again because we were just too lazy to adapt by running Chansey/*insert SwagPlay "counter"*?

There's a reason BP is stigmatized. It's not really a competitive strategy--you're just not playing the game. The difference, in a nutshell, is that BP is playing the game tactically, while everything else is strategic. Stall is difficult for poor players to break too, but no one wants to ban Mega Venusaur or Chansey. Maybe there's something else going on here besides a failure to adapt?

The question you're answering is "Is BP broken?" I think that's the wrong question to ask. There is a precedent for banning things that aren't broken, as OHKO clause and evasion clause show us. (Unless you think Double Team is broken. But hey, maybe we should all just adapt and run No Guard Machamp or a Hazer.) The question to ask is "Are BP chains healthy for the metagame?" or "Are BP chains inherently uncompetitive?" Charizard-Y has nothing to do with these questions.

(Personally, I think a complex ban is the perfect answer--by nerfing chains but keeping BP as a move and as a more limited strategy around, it prevents boring, tactical, uncompetitive matches on the ladder while punishing people who don't adequately prepare for stat-uppers. If you disagree, fine, but "failure to adapt" is a lazy, elitist argument and you should know better. It's not just bad players who want this gone and you know it.)
 
Anti said:
tactically, while everything else is strategic.
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Why does this matter?

The question to ask is "Are BP chains healthy for the metagame?" or "Are BP chains inherently uncompetitive?"
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You may have to elaborate on what is "healthy" for the meta. I could argue that the weather-centric metagame was "unhealthy" last gen. Smogon never did much about that.

Personally, I think a complex ban is the perfect answer--by nerfing chains but keeping BP as a move and as a more limited strategy around, it prevents boring, tactical, uncompetitive matches on the ladder while punishing people who don't adequately prepare for stat-uppers.
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I agree with you on this. If Baton Pass must be banned, complex is the best. Though I don't get why people wouldn't prepare for stat boosters when they're so common....
 
The issue of subjectivity that you raise is important. It's up to every individual to determine that. The distinctions I make are personal, though I do feel like BP is more clear-cut than weather. Gen 5 was pretty terrible though.

In terms of your first question, I think the essence of competitive Pokemon is strategy, both in team building and in battle. BP is very rigid and unadaptable in terms of how it's played. While it can be played with varying degrees of skill, it does not engage the game the same way that every other playstyle does. It's very frustrating that people try to win games like that, and I personally don't think it's healthy regardless of whether or not it can be easily dealt with. (Though I will reiterate that if it were so easy, people probably wouldn't care. But when ban opponents start throwing out Roar Mega Gyarados as a counter because its Roar bypasses Mr. Mime's Soundproof, maybe that's your first hint it's not so easily disposed of...)

So I suppose it's just a matter of taste. I don't see how the game would be negatively impacted in any way if chains were nerfed.
 
Someone please tell me what is the best team to deafet the elite four of pokemon fire red?
 
hmm, in game team is all about the pokemon level lol, i have only played fire red so who knows, level 100 charizard was enough :P
 
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When XY was released, there was a Kalos Dex Only season of Special Battle. Do you think there will be a Season of Special Battle limited to the Hoenn Pokedex?

Half of all megas are listed in the Hoenn dex, so there would be plenty to choose from. Kalos mons would be cut out, but it would only be for a few months of special battle.

I think that might be a Possibility in the month following the release date. It would shake up the meta game by removing the top Mons like Ageis, Talon, Garchomp. Giving Hoenn Pokemon a chance to see how is on top.... Resulting in Salamence all the way down.
 
I could definitely see them doing that for ORAS, especially with all the hype for it. It would certainly make things a little different, though it depends on what pokes are included in the Hoenn dex this time around. It's possible that they'll expand it to include more Pokemon.....but then maybe Talonflames will suddenly appear in Hoenn.
 
So anyone care to give me a rundown on how the meta is looking?

Although I gotta say, Kyurem not even being good enough for UU anymore. Poooower creep.
 
OU is pretty chill, nice and balanced. Stall works, offense, balance works, rain works, Baton Pass is still around for now, etc. Some thoughts:

- Stall is good but is very easy to counter-team. You know you'll be seeing Chansey. Any stall worth anything has Quagsire or Clefable too. Mega Venusaur or Amoonguss will be there. Skarmory is common. It's just not that hard to construct an offensive team that can wear down the real heavy lifters defensively, especially since Venusaur and Chansey don't have Leftovers recovery (and many Skarmory use Rocky Helmet...) which just makes life easier. Honestly, I only ever lose to stall when I really botch the execution, but it's probably the most consistent win for me. And I run ScarfChomp and Ferrothorn on my team.

- Slow sweepers just aren't worth it. Too many fast Pokemon and too much priority. Why would you use, say, Manaphy when you can use Greninja and hit faster with more coverage and immediate power? It's not like the added bulk is really doing much for you when you're contended with Thundurus, Landorus, Speed-tying Charizard, etc. The lone exception is Landorus because it murders stall, but he's more of a breaker than a sweeper (unless you're using the inferior Calm Mind variant), but even he is bad against offense since Ground STAB is pretty bad.

- Clefable is an awesome Pokemon. Ditto for Aegislash, who I suspect will eventually get suspect tested. Great defensive typing and stats to come in easily? Check. Diverse movesets despite a fairly limited pool of usable moves? Check. Best offensive STAB in the game? Check. It can just do anything. I've destroyed so many Bisharp with fast Aeg when they expect a switch and Pursuit or Knock Off--I've only been Sucker Punched once. It's such an amazing breaker and the only one I've used that often just flat-out sweeps. Probably the most consistently amazing Pokemon I've ever used, and he sucks to face too.

- The metagame balances itself out remarkably well. For as many top-tier threats as there are, I never feel particularly overwhelmed trying to cover everything. DeoSharp is a pain but can be pretty easily counterteamed itself and it helps that many of its users don't know what they're doing.

- Scald is the worst thing ever.

- So is Baton Pass.

- And let's not forget Ice Fang missing. :(
 
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