Would this move be too powerful?

[ThePokeCorral]

Hey everyone, new member here. I've been designing some fictional Pokemon, moves, gym leaders etc as a creative project just for kicks, and I'd like the community's opinion on something. This is not a "would this be cool" question, this is a serious question about game balancing. I want to know whether the move I've come up with is actually a terrible idea due to being overpowered. If this isn't the best place to post this kind of question, let me know.

Moves like Mean Look, and binding moves like Wrap, prevent the target from switching out if they successfully land (for a limited number of turns in the latter case). My question is how powerful would it be, and would it in fact be overpowered/broken, if there was a move that prevents the target from switching out for the next few turns (or indefinitely) even if the target outspeeds you? Specifically, the move I'm designing is a binding move that also has the effect of Pursuit, in that if the target attempts to switch out on the turn it is used, the move automatically executes regardless of Speed.

The move can potentially be nerfed by reducing its damage. The part that I'm concerned about is the aspect of "If I decide to click this move, you're not switching out no matter what you do." If the move were essentially just Mean Look with increased priority, would that be overpowered?

To be clear, when I say overpowered, I mean in the context of the player having to deal with it, the player being able to use it, and in the context of competitive pvp battling. The move would first be encountered in a gym battle, then given as a TM after beating said gym battle.

I'm probably worrying about this just a bit too much, seeing as I'm doing this just for fun; it's not like anybody is going to actually suffer the consequences if this move is broken. Still, I'd prefer to avoid putting elements into this project which it wouldn't take a playtester to tell are degenerate and broken.

 

[pkmin3033]

I'm not a competitive expert, but that sounds like an absolute nightmare to deal with if you're facing a stall team. Imagine not being able to switch out when you can't do any damage to your opponent, who can and will happily sit there whilst chipping away at your HP through burn or poison damage, healing off any damage you do through Roost/Leftovers/whatever else.

 

[Megan]

Any move that tries to take advantage of switching out is potentially a problem because switching out is such an integral part of a battle. It's why moves like Stealth Rock and Spikes are so ubiquitous even now in the era of Heavy-Duty Boots. They are simply too convenient as a means to deal extra damage to not use it.

This move in particular reminds me of Shadow Tag and Arena Trap. That is: the ability that prevents the opponent from switching out. If the Pokemon that gets this move is just good enough competitively then it'll be a nightmare to deal with. Granted, since it is a move it requires a move slot which makes it a little harder to justify than if it were an ability. You can always play around a sub par Ability, but Move slots are usually a lot more valuable.

So it comes down to how good the Pokemon is that gets this move. A terrible Pokemon with one broken move still won't make much of a difference outside of some niche scenario.

 

[Meister_anon~Master_o f_None]

Hey everyone, new member here. I've been designing some fictional Pokemon, moves, gym leaders etc as a creative project just for kicks, and I'd like the community's opinion on something. This is not a "would this be cool" question, this is a serious question about game balancing. I want to know whether the move I've come up with is actually a terrible idea due to being overpowered. If this isn't the best place to post this kind of question, let me know.

Moves like Mean Look, and binding moves like Wrap, prevent the target from switching out if they successfully land (for a limited number of turns in the latter case). My question is how powerful would it be, and would it in fact be overpowered/broken, if there was a move that prevents the target from switching out for the next few turns (or indefinitely) even if the target outspeeds you? Specifically, the move I'm designing is a binding move that also has the effect of Pursuit, in that if the target attempts to switch out on the turn it is used, the move automatically executes regardless of Speed.

The move can potentially be nerfed by reducing its damage. The part that I'm concerned about is the aspect of "If I decide to click this move, you're not switching out no matter what you do." If the move were essentially just Mean Look with increased priority, would that be overpowered?

To be clear, when I say overpowered, I mean in the context of the player having to deal with it, the player being able to use it, and in the context of competitive pvp battling. The move would first be encountered in a gym battle, then given as a TM after beating said gym battle.

I'm probably worrying about this just a bit too much, seeing as I'm doing this just for fun; it's not like anybody is going to actually suffer the consequences if this move is broken. Still, I'd prefer to avoid putting elements into this project which it wouldn't take a playtester to tell are degenerate and broken.

I think you're right to consider all these things, I think it needs to be balanced on a couple different fronts but it could be fine, I'm planning something vaguely similar so I've thought a bit about this too.

I think you shouldn't make it permanent firstly, there are few permanent effects in pokemon, I think you should do like you thought and instead set it to a timer like most others and have it last 5 turns.

Damage: does the move itself do damage or is it just the binding affect? I think it could work fine just off the binding, but if you keep the damage at or below 70 and make sure concurrent use doesn't extend the timer, damage also shouldn't be a problem.

This is mostly because it works like mean look, so the effect would end as soon as you switch out your pokemon, so while it can be, the effect itself isn't that strong.


Utility: since this is a move you need to plan where it would fit within learnsets, is a early learn move, or a late move. The biggest factor here is how many and what kind of pokemon have access to this move.

If a large variety of pokemon have the move, the "effect" will feel more pervasive and this really isn't the kind of thing you want to be too common.

The other point is the type of pokemon using this. Now if zubat had this move, it would be useful for them. But also zubat is far from a tank, so it just comes down to, if I want to switch I need to kill this one weak pokemon.

That's very different compared to if the move is used by a bulky attacker like say salamence, or a tank like chansey or steelix.

That would be a nightmare, stuck against salamence you could be fighting a pokemon that can overpower you, and at that point its just a guaranteed kill.

In the other case, you're against one you can't beat, or is extremely tanky so you're just stuck their while the other team can setup whatever they want.

And that's not even putting perish song into consideration.

So you need to heavily consider who gets this move.



Lastly counters.
always consider counters you want to make sure there are some. I'm not 100% sure but I believe switch moves would still work under things like mean look or bind. So things like baton pass, u-turn, volt-switch etc. Or things that force your pokemon to leave would be able to break the effect. I think.

If you consider all that, if you implement it I'm sure there shouldn't be much problem.

 

[ThePokeCorral]

So it comes down to how good the Pokemon is that gets this move. A terrible Pokemon with one broken move still won't make much of a difference outside of some niche scenario.

since this is a move you need to plan where it would fit within learnsets, is a early learn move, or a late move. The biggest factor here is how many and what kind of pokemon have access to this move.

If a large variety of pokemon have the move, the "effect" will feel more pervasive and this really isn't the kind of thing you want to be too common.

[...]

So you need to heavily consider who gets this move.

It's a late move, but a lot of Pokemon can learn it. It's the TM given by the 8th gym leader - and every one of his Pokemon have it. It's only learnable by TM, so you won't see it before that point.* On a playthough, you would basically only have to deal with it in that one gym battle, but the player would then have access to it after that, and as a TM it would definitely affect competitive battling if it's strong.

As to specific combos, it being a TM doesn't preclude saying things like "don't give this to anything that learns Perish Song." It being learnable by bulky and/or hard-hitting Pokemon like Salamence would be harder to avoid, since there are a lot of those.

I think you shouldn't make it permanent firstly, there are few permanent effects in pokemon, I think you should do like you thought and instead set it to a timer like most others and have it last 5 turns.

The current iteration of it is a binding move, so yeah it would last for only 5 turns. Or rather, for 3-5 turns.

Damage: does the move itself do damage or is it just the binding affect? I think it could work fine just off the binding, but if you keep the damage at or below 70 and make sure concurrent use doesn't extend the timer, damage also shouldn't be a problem.

It deals damage, both on the initial hit and at the end of each turn. If the target is not switching out when it hits, it does basically the same thing as a regular binding move. However, I currently have it dealing double damage if the target is attempting to switch out, like Pursuit. The base power would be sub-par for a late game move, but obviously much more significant if doubled. Most binding moves have a base power of 35, which would double to 70.

and make sure concurrent use doesn't extend the timer

By this I assume you mean that the move fails if its effect is already active? Is that the way it normally works for binding moves? Bulbapedia doesn't appear to say.

I'm not 100% sure but I believe switch moves would still work under things like mean look or bind. So things like baton pass, u-turn, volt-switch etc.

Bulbapedia lists "can't escape" as one of the effects that is passed by Baton Pass, but doesn't specify whether this applies to binding moves or only to moves like Mean Look. For Volt Switch, it calls out the various moves and abilities that can prevent a Pokemon from escaping, saying that Volt Swith still works under these effects, but doesn't mention binding moves. I can understand Baton Pass not transferring the trapping effect of a binding move, but without it being specified I'm not sure what to assume in terms of whether binding moves would prevent Baton Pass or Volt Switch from being used at all.




It sounds as though Dawn and Megan think that this would be too powerful given that it's a TM. By Meister_anon's analysis it might be okay if it dealt little enough damage; but I worry that reducing its damage by much would make it not work well in the gym battle it's featured it, which would defeat the whole point of the move as well as ruining the gym battle. As to other ways to make it not so broken, I have at least one alternative idea, but it has a problem - or at least I think it does.

Thinking purely in terms of game mechanics and disregarding flavor, an earlier iteration of this idea had it only trapping the target if it did in fact hit a target that was attempting to switch out; under regular circumstances it would just do damage, and not that much damage for that point in the game (base power 60 or less, and again this is the 8th gym). This would probably solve most of the issues listed; however taking into account how elegant and intuitive the move feels, I kind of feel like it really wants to be a binding move - especially if it only traps the target for a limited time, instead of lasting until the user switches out. The move being able to hit Pokemon that are switching out while also negating the switch is the move's primary function; but flavorwise it feels inelegant and unintuitive NOT to make it a binding move, and binding moves trap the target when just used normally.

Let me walk you through the chain of reasoning that led to me creating this move as it currently is.

I was creating a Dark-type gym leader, and trying to figure out what TM he would give out. Given the lack of precedent for Dark-type gym leaders, I had nothing to go off of. (Note: I haven't played Sword and Shield yet and am trying to avoid spoilers about it. If Sword and Shield has a Dark-type gym leader, DO NOT TELL ME PLEASE.) Few if any of the Dark-type moves that I currently had his Pokemon using were TMs (he uses a lot of dual-type Pokemon so a lot of his moves aren't Dark-type), and none of them felt iconic to him. I'm not aware of a list anywhere of all of the moves that have ever been TMs, but I looked at the moves that some Dark type Pokemon can learn by TM, and still nothing felt right.

It then occurred to me that if Pursuit were a TM, that would work, since his gym battle uses a strategy and theme that would likely give the player reason to want to switch on multiple occasions. (This is not to say that I think that punishing or preventing the player switching is necessary to making his strategy work. It's not - I just felt it would be an appropriate move for him to have and to give as a TM, and a good way to further spice up the battle.) There was a problem, however - this was the 8th gym, and Pursuit isn't a very strong move. It's a 40 base power attack that deals double damage if the target is switching out, but at this point in the game you would have access to moves that just straight up have 80 power or more. Getting to hit the original target if it switches out instead of hitting the Pokemon that replaces it can be useful, but it doesn't seem THAT relevant, certainly not worth the move having only 40 power normally this late in the game. So I decided to create a new move that was like Pursuit but which also negated the switch out if it hit a Pokemon that was switching, and then proceeded to trap it for as long as the user remained in battle. I also upped its base power a bit, to 50 or 60.

This, I felt, would create a really interesting gameplay dynamic, because - in the event that a situation were established where the player would want to switch, which the AI could recognize - the player and the AI would be trying to second-guess eachother as to when the player would attempt to switch and when the AI would decide to use the move. The move itself, however, felt inelegant to me; upgrading Pursuit's damage-doubling effect to also negate the switch out felt fine, but the aspect of "and it also traps the target for as long as the user remains in battle," while I felt like it would lead to good gameplay, felt awkwardly "tacked on."

I then later had the idea to make the move a binding move - dealing recurring damage and trapping the target for 3-5 turns - which I felt solved this intuitiveness problem very well. I was very pleased with this - until I realized that this would make the aforementioned second-guessing dynamic moot, since such a move would ALSO trap the target when just used normally. Meaning that - again in the event that the AI recognizes that the player will want to switch and be in a bad spot if they don't - the AI can just use the move straight away, trapping the player in this bad spot no matter what they do. I then further realized that a TM move that says "if I decide to click this move, you're not switching out, even if you outspeed me this turn" would likely not go over well in PvP battling. It would probably be fine for the remainder of the playthrough since AI opponents don't tend to switch very much, but in PvP people switch all the time.

So in summary, having the trapping effect only occur if the target attempts to switch out on the turn the move is used feels like it would lead to good gameplay, but it also feels very clunky to me; does anyone disagree? Whereas making the move a binding move feels like it makes much more sense, but would negate this good gameplay dynamic, as well as, I fear, being overpowered in general.



*(Almost. It's a Dark type move that I named "Dark Tendrils," and is flavored as tendrils of shadowy energy grasping the target. I then wrote down that the only Pokemon that learns it by level up is Umbreon, but that on Umbreon the name is changed to "Floor Tentacles." Kudos to anyone who gets that. 😜)

 

[Zeostar]

Competitively I could already see this being used on PP stall teams. Not sure if "too powerful" would be the right choice of words, but it would be highly tedious.

 

[Meister_anon~Master_o f_None]

It's a late move, but a lot of Pokemon can learn it. It's the TM given by the 8th gym leader - and every one of his Pokemon have it. It's only learnable by TM, so you won't see it before that point.* On a playthough, you would basically only have to deal with it in that one gym battle, but the player would then have access to it after that, and as a TM it would definitely affect competitive battling if it's strong.

As to specific combos, it being a TM doesn't preclude saying things like "don't give this to anything that learns Perish Song." It being learnable by bulky and/or hard-hitting Pokemon like Salamence would be harder to avoid, since there are a lot of those.


The current iteration of it is a binding move, so yeah it would last for only 5 turns. Or rather, for 3-5 turns.

It deals damage, both on the initial hit and at the end of each turn. If the target is not switching out when it hits, it does basically the same thing as a regular binding move. However, I currently have it dealing double damage if the target is attempting to switch out, like Pursuit. The base power would be sub-par for a late game move, but obviously much more significant if doubled. Most binding moves have a base power of 35, which would double to 70.

By this I assume you mean that the move fails if its effect is already active? Is that the way it normally works for binding moves? Bulbapedia doesn't appear to say.

Bulbapedia lists "can't escape" as one of the effects that is passed by Baton Pass, but doesn't specify whether this applies to binding moves or only to moves like Mean Look. For Volt Switch, it calls out the various moves and abilities that can prevent a Pokemon from escaping, saying that Volt Swith still works under these effects, but doesn't mention binding moves. I can understand Baton Pass not transferring the trapping effect of a binding move, but without it being specified I'm not sure what to assume in terms of whether binding moves would prevent Baton Pass or Volt Switch from being used at all.

by the timer I don't mean that the move should fail, most binding moves or other moves that make an effect, have what is called a "timer" for non-damaging moves yes it would fail, but for your move I just mean that it should still do damage but not extend the timer.

The only move that extends the timer is ion deluge. I'm just saying to make sure that it works like the others when you make it.

In your hack make sure its possible to avoid the move, so some pokemon player could have gotten before the gym, should be able to learn a move that would allow them to escape the trap. It shouldn't be every or even most, just weigh the decision.

I'm not sure myself if those switching moves would let you escape the moves, only way to know for sure is to test it.

It sounds as though Dawn and Megan think that this would be too powerful given that it's a TM. By Meister_anon's analysis it might be okay if it dealt little enough damage;

I think Megan just believes (and excuse me if I'm wrong here), like I believe that the pokemon that learn this move should be chosen carefully.

My thought is that a pokemon that's already strong doesn't necessarily need it. From what you described about the power etc.
the moves sounds like its perfect as it is.

Just edit tm compatability sets, to edit who will get the move.

 

[ThePokeCorral]

In your hack make sure its possible to avoid the move, so some pokemon player could have gotten before the gym, should be able to learn a move that would allow them to escape the trap. It shouldn't be every or even most, just weigh the decision.

This is again the last gym, and the entrance to the Victory Road is at an earlier location; so if a Pokemon or item is in the game at all, the player likely has access to it by this point.

The question is what are the options for avoiding it?

I was looking at the page for Volt Switch itself before, but the page on status conditions explains "can't escape" and "bound" as two separate status conditions; the former coming from moves like Mean Look and the latter from moves like Wrap. Baton Pass, Volt Switch and U-Turn work for the former, but seemingly not the latter. (Side note - If Volt Switch and U-Turn did work, they are TMs, so the availability of those items would likely be more relevant than what Pokemon you can catch.) Rapid Spin escapes from binding, but Rapid Spin strikes me as not a very good move - and it only removes the effects of binding, it doesn't switch the user out, so the move could just be used again next turn. The held item Shed Shell works on both; it's usually obtainable only as a 5% chance held item on wild Pokemon, and Diamond and Pearl have it be found on the ground in what I believe is a post-game area, but Sword and Shield have it on an early route, so it being obtainable by a reasonable means is not unheard of. There is an area midway through the game in which you can Dive (not an actual HM, but that's another story) if you return there after getting the ability, so offhand that seems like a good place to put it.

Ghost-type Pokemon are immune to both forms of trapping. Ghost is weak to Dark; but it wouldn't be if paired with Dark, Fighting, or Fairy, the latter two of which are also strong against Dark and you'd want to be using them here anyway. The only Ghost/Fighting type is Marshadow which is Mythical, and the only Ghost/Fairy type is Mimikyu. As a matter of fact, I'd already planned on having Mimikyu be found in the area right before the final gym town, so there you go. 😁

Going back to Rapid Spin, for what it's worth, it's learned by some fairly generic Pokemon, so I'm sure some of them can be found at some point. Ones that have a type that is super effective against Dark are Foretress and Hitmontop. I have no idea where you get the Hitmons or Tyrogue, but there is definitely a forest area, so Pineco can be in there somewhere.

I think Megan just believes (and excuse me if I'm wrong here), like I believe that the pokemon that learn this move should be chosen carefully.

My thought is that a pokemon that's already strong doesn't necessarily need it. From what you described about the power etc.
the moves sounds like its perfect as it is.

Just edit tm compatability sets, to edit who will get the move.

In order to avoid the behaviour of "just use it straight away because there's no reason not to," I'm now thinking of making its regular damage low without decreasing its enhanced damage. Its low damage under normal circumstances would then balance the fact that there's (almost, as above) nothing the target can do about it if they want to switch; and in cases where the target clearly wants to switch, including the gym battle in question, the low regular power would motivate the user to want to use it only if the target is actually switching on that turn, partially restoring the "second guessing" dynamic. I'm thinking of making its base power 30 - slightly less than most binding moves - but having it deal triple damage if the target is switching out. The power I currently had written down for it is 50, so 3*30 is similar to 2*50.

Also, I had forgotten that most regular binding moves are only 85% accurate. This provides a bit more mitigation to the scenario in which the trainer/AI uses it "just for good measure" even if the target isn't switching on that exact turn; it can miss in that scenario, forcing the user to use it again next turn if they want to trap the target, instead of doing whatever they'd rather be doing that is the reason why the opponent wants to switch - using a super effective attack, setting up stat stages, etc. (Of course, if the target IS switching out that turn, it bypasses accuracy checks, as with Pursuit.)

 

[Meister_anon~Master_o f_None]

...

Well if moves like volt switch don't work, you could change them to make them work. If you want to put in that much effort.

In one of my hacks, I needed to change some moves around for balance and I ended up buffing rapid spin and changing its type to something other than normal, that combined with the speed boost you also get made it a much better move.

That's also an option, buff or make partial counters. But not that needed when you think about all the strategies for interrupting moves etc. that already exist.

There's really nothing wrong with the normal power, and also not much you can do about people using it first turn. That's typically the best time to use any trap move.

Thing about it like this, if you're the player your strat is either a setup, or your strongest move out the gate to faint as fast as possible.

So in a positive type matchup, if the gym leader springs his trap move, and its really weak, the pokemon may already be dead or mostly by end of turn regardless.

I think the base damage needs to at least be average (50) to justify using it over some other move.

For the player or the gym leader.


maybe you can get away with 45 base damage.

 

[ThePokeCorral]

Well if moves like volt switch don't work, you could change them to make them work. If you want to put in that much effort.

In one of my hacks, I needed to change some moves around for balance and I ended up buffing rapid spin and changing its type to something other than normal, that combined with the speed boost you also get made it a much better move.

I feel it would be too obnoxious to change Volt Switch / U-Turn so that they work against binding. I'd be fine however with buffing Rapid Spin, or creating one or more new moves that counter binding. A switching move like Volt Switch / U-Turn that can escape from binding (but possibly not Mean Look), and/or a move that has additional effects if the user is bound.

The latter might be tricky to find a consistent flavor for. I briefly had the idea for an Electric-type move that sends current back along tentacles/vines/etc - but that wouldn't make sense against Sand Tomb, or Whirlpool.

That's also an option, buff or make partial counters. But not that needed when you think about all the strategies for interrupting moves etc. that already exist.

Fair point.

There's really nothing wrong with the normal power, and also not much you can do about people using it first turn. That's typically the best time to use any trap move.

Yes, it typically is. My point, then, is that if the other player knows that they are about to be trapped - likely because they can see that they're in a bad matchup - then they normally have one chance to switch before the opponent has a chance to trap them. Whereas with a trapping move that also has the Pursuit effect, they don't have that chance.

So in a positive type matchup, if the gym leader springs his trap move, and its really weak, the pokemon may already be dead or mostly by end of turn regardless.

In the case of the gym leader, yes, the player might still be able to deal massive damage to the leader's Pokemon; and the reason they would want to switch is because the leader's Pokemon has super effective damage in return and might outspeed them. In PvP, however, it's much more likely that the player with the disadvantage is in a much worse position; such as both being subject to super effective damage AND having their best attacks be resisted, if not completely blocked (Electric against Ground etc). That is the premise of my concern; when one player's best option is clearly to switch on the first turn, but they are powerless to do so.

Thing about it like this, if you're the player your strat is either a setup, or your strongest move out the gate to faint as fast as possible.

So in a positive type matchup, if the gym leader springs his trap move, and its really weak, the pokemon may already be dead or mostly by end of turn regardless.

I think the base damage needs to at least be average (50) to justify using it over some other move.

For the player or the gym leader.


maybe you can get away with 45 base damage.

Alright, let me explain what this gym leader is actually doing.

Again, they're a Dark type specialist. He has five Pokemon. The first three are a Dark/Fire type to counter Bug types (and resist Fairy types), a Dark/Psychic type to counter Fighting types, and a Dark/Poison type to counter Fairy types. He then has two Zoroarks. The Zoroarks are both holding an item that changes how its Illusion ability works; instead of always copying the Pokemon in the 6th party slot, the trainer chooses a Pokemon to copy upon sending out Zoroark. The order of his team is randomized each time you face him, so past attempts against him give you no information as to when to expect to see the Zoroaks or what they'll be copying, and the held items ensure that seeing the first Zoroark doesn't let you rule out the two Pokemon it wasn't copying for what the second one will be copying.

In addition to this trapping move, the Zoroarks know a strong Dark type attack (Night Slash for one and Night Daze for the other), Grass Knot, and Air Slash. (Air Slash is not a TM, but I'm making it one. Aerial Ace is too weak for this purpose.) This gives them super effective damage for all of the types you would want to use against his other three Pokemon, except for Fairy; Air Slash for Fighting and Bug, and Grass Knot for Water, Ground, and Rock. Each of his Pokemon thus has different "correct" types to use against it which mostly don't overlap, and if you're wrong about whether it's a Zoroark or not, you will get caught out. The only partial exception to this is that if you see the Dark/Psychic type you are safe with a Fairy type; however, Bug will be doubly super effective against Dark/Psychic, whereas against Zoroark you will get caught out by Air Slash.

I'm going to assume here that the player is playing on Switch Mode; I've thought about what to do on Stay Mode, but that gets a lot more complicated so I'm not going to get into it.

Say the gym leader sends out Zoroark disguised as the Dark/Poison type. The player then sends out a Ground type, its only weakness. On the first turn, the player will use a Ground type attack which Zoroark is not weak to, and Zoroark will go for Grass Knot. Say that Grass Knot doesn't KO in one hit. The player now clearly wants to switch to their Fairy type. The AI knows that if it goes for Grass Knot again, the player will likely switch to their Fairy type which is not weak to Grass - so instead it uses the anti-switching move. Now, if the move only traps the target if it is attempting to switch and/or doesn't do much damage if they're not, then the player can anticipate Zoroark doing this, and NOT switch, instead going for their strongest neutral attack to get in more damage while Zoroark accomplishes much less with its weak attack. The AI (or opposing player, if a similar obviously-bad matchup occurs in a PvP battle) then has to take THAT possibility into account, and so might go for Grass Knot after all. This then leads to the two sides trying to second-guess eachother, guessing what the opponent is going to do - switch vs attack on one end, and super effective attack vs anti-switch move on the other end - and make the corresponding optimal move. This can potentially go on for multiple turns if neither Pokemon faints.

If on the other hand the move under normal circumstances both traps the target and deals significant damage, then the obvious correct move is for Zoroak to use it on the second turn - the turn on which the player first knows that they are in a bad matchup - trapping the player and getting in decent damage whether they tried to switch that turn or not, and then spam Grass Knot after that. This, as I see it, is far less interesting.

A similar situation would then arise in a PvP battle where one player simply sends out a Pokemon that is strong against the opponent's current Pokemon and knows this move. In this case, it is obviously the optimal move for the first player to use the trapping move on the first turn; the second player knows that they're in a bad matchup, but there's nothing they can do about it. Whereas if the move doesn't trap the target and/or deals little damage if they are not switching, then, again, the second player can get around this by not switching on the first turn; if the move doesn't trap in this circumstance, then they are forcing the first player to use up yet another turn attempting to use this move rather than doing the thing that makes this a bad matchup in the first place (super effective attack or whatever), whereas if the move always traps but deals little damage normally, then they're at least getting away with little damage while using their best move, and the first player would again have been better off not wasting a turn on this move.

Now, maybe you'll say that 45 power, as you suggested, isn't that much stronger than my suggestion of 30 (considering that this is late in the game or a PvP battle between high level Pokemon), and is low enough that it still works the way I'd like it to. If so, great. But in any case, this is the conundrum that led me to create this thread.

 

[Sheep]

I'm not heavily into the competitive scene, but preventing your target from switching regardless of Speed stat does sound like an incredibly strong move concept. Can't say much on if it'd be too powerful (initial thought says it would), but I'd be curious in how heavily it would affect the meta. People would probably expect seeing it on certain mons and have moves specifically slotted in for taking down those opponents without needing to switch. I guess you could use that confusion to your advantage as well, lol.