Coming Out

[gimmepie]

Really Moogles? Because I understand exactly what he's saying and I agree with it, hence why I made the same point further back in this discussion/debate.

When celebrities make a huge deal of "coming out" and intentionally start a media frenzy, they are aiding in perpetuating the idea that being bi or homosexual is a huge deal, that it's abnormal and that it's everyone else's business to know. If they were to just start dating a person of the same gender openly, as they would anyone else, it send a far better message, that message being "look, this is a perfectly normal thing. A celebrity is doing it and not making any fuss of it. On of our role models is treating it like it's nothing. Perhaps they are right" as opposed to "OH MY GOD I'M GAY, TREAT ME DIFFERENTLY AND PAY LOTS OF ATTENTION TO ME". This method still get's the same publicity, it's always big news when celebrities form relationships and because the media is full of bigots, homophobes and businessmen who thrive on making non-issues into drama and presents the idea that we should not be concerned with sexuality.

We seem to be on opposite sides of the fence a lot lately Moogles (which is fine we're all entitled to our own opinions), and this is yet another issue I doubt we'll end up seeing eye-to-eye on. I hope that you can at least see though that neither my arguments nor Alex's are flawed, they are merely different.

 

[Star-Lord]

Really Moogles? Because I understand exactly what he's saying and I agree with it, hence why I made the same point further back in this discussion/debate.

Well cool to know you live in the same bubble.

When celebrities make a huge deal of "coming out" and intentionally start a media frenzy, they are aiding in perpetuating the idea that being bi or homosexual is a huge deal, that it's abnormal and that it's everyone else's business to know.

To be fair it sort of is a huge deal and is abnormal? It's not reall anybody's business but being born gay means that you're unwillingly thrust into a lifestyle where people are going to make bigoted remarks and condemn you for what you are. You are going against a society and will make enemies for no good reason, so in my mind that perfectly does translate as a big deal and I feel it should be treated as such.

If they were to just start dating a person of the same gender openly, as they would anyone else, it send a far better message, that message being "look, this is a perfectly normal thing. A celebrity is doing it and not making any fuss of it.

I love how this would be perfect in a fantasy world, but the truth of the matter is that we don't have that.

On of our role models is treating it like it's nothing. Perhaps they are right" as opposed to "OH MY GOD I'M GAY, TREAT ME DIFFERENTLY AND PAY LOTS OF ATTENTION TO ME". This method still get's the same publicity, it's always big news when celebrities form relationships and because the media is full of bigots, homophobes and businessmen who thrive on making non-issues into drama and presents the idea that we should not be concerned with sexuality.

Nobody... does TREAT ME DIFFERENTLY AND PAY LOTS OF ATTENTION TO ME though. I mean not that I pay a lot of attention but the most of the times I've seen celebrities come out it's through a tweet being all "Cool guys I'm gay" or "A lot of people have been talking about this and I want to say that yes, I am." Nobody going all "HEY GUYS I'M GAY I'M A GAY AREN'T I A COOL PERSON"... even when Chaz Bono went through transitions to become a man the media had a huge storm with it but he didn't react all that much. It just seems- wait, no, it doesn't seem callous it perfectly is callous to say that celebs should just stay in the shadows about this sort of thing.

We seem to be on opposite sides of the fence a lot lately Moogles (which is fine we're all entitled to our own opinions), and this is yet another issue I doubt we'll end up seeing eye-to-eye on. I hope that you can at least see though that neither my arguments nor Alex's are flawed, they are merely different.

No. I've already said Alex's opinions are flawed because they would discount the historical and sociological context of the division of minorities and would undermine them. Simply because your opinions are different than mine doesn't mean that they aren't flawed or fail to understand the world as it is today.

 

[gimmepie]

That's the whole point.

We don't live in such a world, partly because actions like this continue to promote the stereotype that your sexuality should be considered important. They don't have to actually say they want to be treated differently, because making a big announcement about it opens the door way for it.

 

[Star-Lord]

you know i had an answer to this but when i starting thinking this whole 'everybody is the same perfect world' sounds sort of like dystopian fiction. thankfully all it will ever do is remain fictional but hey, that's cool. good luck with that.

 

[professor plum]

That's the whole point.

We don't live in such a world, partly because actions like this continue to promote the stereotype that your sexuality should be considered important. They don't have to actually say they want to be treated differently, because making a big announcement about it opens the door way for it.

As long as people can be murdered for their sexuality, and people can be considered second class citizens because of their sexuality, then yes, it will remain important.

 

[Star-Lord]

but Erik you don't understand
we must all stay silent and never bring up our differences
clearly this isn't the problem in the first place and has lead to untold strife through the decades if not centuries

 

[Star-Lord]

words

ok so you have literally no idea what you're talking about, you put words in my mouth, bring up completely pointless garbage (I don't hate all straight people lmfao I just hate obtuse morons who don't understand how the world works). All else I'm going to say on the matter is that if you think your attitude is somehow ok with this... it's not lol... and that's coming from me... you should really think on that....

 

[Phazon Elemental]

What exactly do ypu suffer from in CANADA Moogles, are they rounding up the gays into ghettoes, making them wear little rainbow stickers.

You heard it here first, folks: there are no problems in Canada and everyone is absolutely equal.

Also, there's kinda a lot more to oppression than emulating the methods of the Nazis.

Like, not even getting into the bald-faced wrongness of the rest of your post, what in the hell makes you think that Canada is completely free of problems?

 

[Star-Lord]

I dunno man I, too, would like to know how an Australian understands the social nuances in Canada despite probably having not lived here for an extended period of time or having talked to many Canadians . ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

e:

You heard it here first, folks: there are no problems in Canada and everyone is absolutely equal.

Wait, zonkers, am I living in the dystopia that so many users in this thread dream of??????

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Honestly, the only way to stop this phobia nonsense is to stop the hate, once and for all. Flipping the tables does no good. If you stop and think about it, hatred begets hatred. It will only separate people further. When we as a society can learn to accept homosexuality as a "normal" practice, the minority that still remains homophobic will be actively outed by the majority.

Look at white supremacist groups. They're extremely racist, but unlike 100 years ago, very few people would support them today. That's not to say that racism doesn't exist - far from it - but we have made incredible progress by teaching that we are the same group but diverse people as opposed to different groups but indistinguishable people.

 

[Star-Lord]

Honestly, the only way to stop this phobia nonsense is to stop the hate, once and for all. Flipping the tables does no good. If you stop and think about it, hatred begets hatred. It will only separate people further. When we as a society can learn to accept homosexuality as a "normal" practice, the minority that still remains homophobic will be actively outed by the majority.

hate won't end hate assumes that oppressors are going to respect you and change their minds by being nice

it's like assuming that bullies are going to stop being interested in beating the crap out of you because you become a monk and lift not a finger when they break your arm

do i need to continue

Look at white supremacist groups. They're extremely racist, but unlike 100 years ago, very few people would support them today. That's not to say that racism doesn't exist - far from it - but we have made incredible progress by teaching that we are the same group but diverse people as opposed to different groups but indistinguishable people.

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We got there by showing people that this is wrong and chastising these groups PUBLICLY jesus christ you are so dense. what you're saying DID NOT HAPPEN AT ALL

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Honestly, Moogles, your posts are so nigh impossible to understand that I cannot help but just scratch my head. I know you're trying to be clever and cute with your outright... pitiful writing style, but I'll... try to tackle whatever drivel you said.

hate won't end hate assumes that oppressors are going to respect you and change their minds by being nice

it's like assuming that bullies are going to stop being interested in beating the crap out of you because you become a monk and lift not a finger when they break your arm

do i need to continue

Your logic is completely wrong.

Hatred brews oppression. Because the other side (homosexuals) have been oppressed for so long, it may seem logical to "fight back". However, what this ends up doing is eliminating people who may support homosexual rights but aren't homosexual themselves (such as myself). By presenting an aggressive attitude towards the very people who you are trying to "win over' so to speak, you are destroying possible ties.

An example of a single act would be the death of Fred Phelps. MANY people were suggesting that one should protest their funeral with hatred. Instead, the homosexual community "protested" with peaceful words.

Instead of pissing off the public with a fight, the community reacted by being respectful. Even people who were traditionally homophobic greatly appreciated the efforts of these individuals.

Again, once most people feel that homosexuality is a completely normal and fair practice, the minority will be homophobic individuals, and because homophobia would be considered wrong, they, not the homosexuals, would be outed out of society.

????????????????? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ????????? ???? ???? ???????

We got there by showing people that this is wrong and chastising these groups PUBLICLY jesus christ you are so dense. what you're saying DID NOT HAPPEN AT ALL

Actually, yes, it did happen.

Even as late as the 1950s, public lynchings occured. Let me make this clear. The public MURDER of black people was considered "normal" (although less common than in previous decades). Black people were ruthlessly taken aside and beaten to death. Many people who stood up for their rights were abducted and killed, even white people.

How did the black community retaliate?

Through words of peace.

I believe you are forgetting the power of peace, as shown through Martin Luther King Jr. MLK never once proposed anything aggressive, or this "switch the sides" ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Yes, he did protest, but he protested, along with many other black activists, peacefully. For example, peacefully, the black community was able to cripple the entire Montgomery public transportation system so much that they were forced to comply with equal rights - with no guns, with no fires, with no violence.

The reason why peaceful protest works is because its very hard for people who are part of the majority, for example, in this case, white people, to feel passionate about equal rights for black people if they are promoting the concept of destroying the majority. White people, black people, straight or gay, cis or trans, disability or able bodied... none of us chose who we are. And trying to claim that destroying other people for who they are is the only way to justice, the very cause that you are trying to fight yourself, is not only hypocritical, it makes you a complete bigot. It means you are using your oppression to justify your own racism, your own phobias and fears.

That is the problem with radical social justice.

As people began to side with the views of the black community, as opposed to the racism and Jim Crow laws, rules were enacted to prevent such racist measures from popping up again, because society changed, due to peaceful protest. It convinced much of the white majority that there was a problem that had to be fixed, and the whites that supported the black cause and the black minority, combined, outnumbered the white supremacists. Today this still holds true. What MLK did was put down his fears, his emotions, his experiences, into words, and when you read those words (and I highly recommend reading them), you feel that human compassion. You feel that mutual understanding. You want to help their cause. And when you get enough of the majority agreeing that people are treating you like ♥♥♥♥, it will stop.

And I honestly believe the same fate will happen to homophobia. Look at how people protest WBC. Look at the rage that small church has given the whole world because of their rampant homophobia. This lack of acceptance of homophobia will grow as we head in the right direction.

Anyways, your posts are so cringeworthy that I sincerely doubt that your contributions are serious and you're just being a troll. Your posts seriously read like the half-stoned wit of some 15 year old girl on Tumblr requesting the pronoun "bunself". As noted previously your responses have not only been degradingly stupid, but you have been misogynistic towards me on several occasions and done little outside attacking my character, and have taken your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ out onto my userpage as well as your signature. "Feminist" my ass. Again, I would recommend that you either learn how to debate or return to your fellow SJW kin.

 

[gimmepie]

Moogles, you don't have the slightest clue what I'm saying. I'm not going to write an enormously lengthy post, there's just no point when you're completely ignoring what I'm actually saying. But just in case anyone else is confused or has misinterpreted what I'm saying because of your ranting, I'll say it again.

I am not saying conceal your sexuality, I am not advocating a "don't ask, don't tell approach" nor am I under the impression we live in a dystopia/utopia of some sort. I am saying that you can be openly gay, go ahead and date someone of the same gender but don't make a big fuss like an enormous "coming out" announcement. Doing something like this isn't going to improve how homosexuals are treated, it's just further perpetuating the belief that sexuality is such a big deal. Sexuality is only a big deal because we are making it one, we meaning not just the bigots, religious nuts and "homophobes" but also the gay people who are making such an enormous deal out of it and sending the wrong message.

If gay people didn't announce to the world that they were gay, and just went and dated someone of the same gender - or even just asked someone of the same gender out unsuccessfully - they would be openly and visibly gay without further alienating homosexuals from equality.

Moogles and Erik, I cannot be clearer than that. Yes sexuality is an issue, because we are making it one. Further promoting the perception of homosexuality as something major through a big "coming out" song and dance is no going to change that though. The way to stop sexuality from being an issue, is to stop treating it like one. Ignore the bigots, stop making a fuss over sexuality and start focusing on real issues.

I realise this isn't the case everywhere, yes in places like Russia or Iraq this isn't going to quite cut it, but if the rest of the world stopped being ridiculous about sexuality that's a huge step forward that could pave the way for countries still living in the dark ages to progress.

Okay this is a little lengthy I guess.

 

[Keiran]

I'm not sure what's really going on in this thread anymore. I just see a lot of tone-policing towards queer people.

II am saying that you can be openly gay, go ahead and date someone of the same gender but don't make a big fuss like an enormous "coming out" announcement

it's just further perpetuating the belief that sexuality is such a big deal.

but also the gay people who are making such an enormous deal out of it and sending the wrong message.

If gay people didn't announce to the world that they were gay

You missunderstand the message behind coming out completely, especially from the voice of a celebrity. Do you know how difficult it is to actually FIND someone to date and then date them while in the closet? It's almost impossible. Ellen Page doesn't have the privilege of such things as "picking up chicks in the street" as straight males so eloquently put it. She came out in such a simple way too.. "oh...by the way" in a video she made...you guys are acting like she kanye'd Obama at the State of the Union. Coming out is a hurdle and it gives queer people hope and maybe inspires them to come out which normalizes their sexuality instead of making it some big secret. The rest is up to straight people - it's in your hands now to either make a big deal out of it or just be like "all right, awesome". Coming out has little to do with the sexuality itself and more to do with "no, you know what - this is normal and I'm not putting up with hiding this aspect of humanity". And if that upsets a straight person, well guess whose the one still making a big deal out of it.

If a celebrity overcomes something like depression, addiction or beats cancer...they make it public to let other people know it's possible to overcome these challenges...why should overcoming oppression be silenced..?

Edit:I just find it funny that someone who is saying being gay isn't a big deal and is literally nothing of importance still refers to anyone that isn't straight as "gay people". Don't you mean "people"?

 

[Star-Lord]

If a celebrity overcomes something like depression, addiction or beats cancer...they make it public to let other people know it's possible to overcome these challenges...why should overcoming oppression be silenced..?

Kylie Minogue was public about her breast cancer, this has saved lives. She is lauded as a hero and there is a "Kylie Effect" for women checking themselves and having mammograms.

BUT HOW DARE A CELEBRITY COME OUT OF THE CLOSET THEY'RE MAKING INTO TOO BIG OF AN ISSUE /HOW DARE THEY/

 

[twocows]

I don't care if people talk about it, but to me, sexuality is a private issue. If you want to let people close to you know, that's fine, but I just don't see it as the kind of topic to talk about to people who aren't your close friends. Aside from flirting and jokes and such, I don't talk to others about the kinds of things I like because, to be honest, they have no business knowing it.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

also also, I am laughing at everybody trying to play the attitude card when y'all have egos so big you make Kanye look meek

If you honestly feel this way you haven't read any of Moogles' posts.

Anyways, I think what gimmepie and PervertedPikachu are trying to get at is that coming out isn't necessary. We shouldn't have to "reward" someone for coming out, because the fact that we would reward someone for simply revealing what interest they have sexually is kind of silly - and it is rooted in the fact that phobias of that sexual orientation still exist. While yes, people should be lauded for their bravery, the fact that one has to be brave in order to come out is the problem here.

Nobody "comes out" for being straight and the fact that gays do this clearly shows that there is a discrepancy. Gays shouldn't have the need to "come out" either, they should be comfortable doing what they love. But we don't live in a world where that's safe yet. Why not destroy this underlying problem and make "coming out" obsolete?

I don't care if people talk about it, but to me, sexuality is a private issue. If you want to let people close to you know, that's fine, but I just don't see it as the kind of topic to talk about to people who aren't your close friends. Aside from flirting and jokes and such, I don't talk to others about the kinds of things I like because, to be honest, they have no business knowing it.

I agree with this, too.

 

[Star-Lord]

If you honestly feel this way you haven't read any of Moogles' posts.

I've actually been incredibly self-aware of my attitude this entire time and have made numerous references to how if I, of all people, are saying you're being uncalled for you should check that out. That applies to you as well. Your whole "Oh your typing style" ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and whatever the else you said. I'm even taking the proper time to type this to you properly because apparently if I don't you'll take it upon yourself to make fun of it lol.

Anyways, I think what gimmepie and PervertedPikachu are trying to get at is that coming out isn't necessary. We shouldn't have to "reward" someone for coming out, because the fact that we would reward someone for simply revealing what interest they have sexually is kind of silly - and it is rooted in the fact that phobias of that sexual orientation still exist. While yes, people should be lauded for their bravery, the fact that one has to be brave in order to come out is the problem here.

But don't you think that if we have more people come out publicly, working at trying to erase the stigma then there will be less people who are afraid to come out? One celebrity showing the courage gives it to other people - which imo is a good thing.

Nobody "comes out" for being straight and the fact that gays do this clearly shows that there is a discrepancy. Gays shouldn't have the need to "come out" either, they should be comfortable doing what they love. But we don't live in a world where that's safe yet. Why not destroy this underlying problem and make "coming out" obsolete?

The thing is that everybody would like that. We really would, but until we get to that point we have to try our hardest to make people safe and comfortable - and that's why people are doing this right now.

 

[Grey Wind]

If you honestly feel this way you haven't read any of Moogles' posts.

Well at least he lives in the real world and not a Famous Five book.

Anyways, I think what gimmepie and PervertedPikachu are trying to get at is that coming out isn't necessary. We shouldn't have to "reward" someone for coming out, because the fact that we would reward someone for simply revealing what interest they have sexually is kind of silly - and it is rooted in the fact that phobias of that sexual orientation still exist. While yes, people should be lauded for their bravery, the fact that one has to be brave in order to come out is the problem here.

Yes, so why don't we work towards abolishing homophobia at its core first, instead of being like "oh hmm coming out is kind of dumb maybe we should ignore sexuality altogether". It's almost like you're skipping ahead - I think there are problems more important than whether or not coming out should be a big issue or not right now (and celebrities coming out does have a very positive effect so I don't see why you'd wish to... abolish it) and that we should deal with those first.

Like really, I hear people saying "oh I never came out to my parents as straight, I just got a girlfriend, maybe you should do the same". I mean that'd be great, but it's a really unrealistic thought in the present day. I'd love if coming out was that easy but for a lot of people (including myself) it's not and these perfect world scenarios aren't really helping.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Yes, so why don't we work towards abolishing homophobia at its core first, instead of being like "oh hmm coming out is kind of dumb maybe we should ignore sexuality altogether". It's almost like you're skipping ahead - I think there are problems more important than whether or not coming out should be a big issue or not right now (and celebrities coming out does have a very positive effect so I don't see why you'd wish to... abolish it) and that we should deal with those first.

Please do not put words into my mouth because I never said those things. I know that gimmepie and pervertedpikachu were saying things along those lines, but I was talking about eliminating the phobias altogether.

To reiterate:

Honestly, the only way to stop this phobia nonsense is to stop the hate, once and for all. Flipping the tables does no good. If you stop and think about it, hatred begets hatred. It will only separate people further. When we as a society can learn to accept homosexuality as a "normal" practice, the minority that still remains homophobic will be actively outed by the majority.

Look at white supremacist groups. They're extremely racist, but unlike 100 years ago, very few people would support them today. That's not to say that racism doesn't exist - far from it - but we have made incredible progress by teaching that we are the same group but diverse people as opposed to different groups but indistinguishable people.