The U.S Gun Control Thread

[LDSman]

Do you mean the law the governor signed yesterday outlawing the ownership of firearms made from untraceable parts, or do you mean something else? Am admittedly not familiar with my state's gun laws, all I really know is that this is one of the stricter states in the country regarding gun laws and that Murphy is a very pro-gun control guy.

I meant in general. Person legally carrying with a permit in a state bordering NJ crosses the state line and is now considered a criminal as NJ refuses to recognize any other state's permits. But that new gun law is pretty stupid. There is only one part of a gun that gets a serial number. The rest of the parts are easily replaceable for repairs and what not. Its also targeting a nonexistent problem. How many crimes have been committed by people that buy gun parts and assemble their own guns? Same question with 3D printed guns. The vast majority of criminals aren't going to spend thousands to get get the vary precise printers and printer stuff needed to make a safe to use 3D printed gun. It is also still illegal for felons to make and possess guns. And how does NJ plan to find and punish people who make guns in their garage or basement anyway?

I see. I didn't think to look at the Bureau of Justice Statistics page too, and somehow missed that the FBI UCR actually goes back to 1995. I don't really care for articles as sources for statistics, but the Pew link seems alright and I found the BJS page it primarily draws from, and I have little reason to doubt the BJS, so....

Though the thing is, the Pew and BJS pages only go up to 2011, so what does that mean for more recent times? Y'know, the FBI data I posted in my previous post.

No clue honestly. Good trend data goes back decades. Its too easy to take small chunks and claim "Its trending upward!!!"

ShinyUmbreon: True. But why then EU doesn't have gun 'rights' either? Like it or not, even if a gun owner might not intend to use them at all, take one bad day and you have a killing machine on your hands. That's why keeping firearms out of the hands of the common folk is a VERY good thing.

Do you think that if you had a bad day and access to a gun, you'd start killing people? If so, that's on you. I own a gun. I've had bad guys. I still haven't felt the urge to threaten or kill people with it. Same thing for my car, my swords, my gasoline and matches. if people are so dangerous, why would you want to disarm the law-abiding? One bad day and the neighbor may be trying to beat me to death. Millions of gun owners never seem to go on these killing sprees when they have a bad day.

 

[Desert Stream~]

Now maybe I'm wrong, but when people refer to a "bad day" they don't mean just any bad day
A lot of people suffering from mental illness or depression try to hide it, and can appear just fine on the outside while on the inside they're in a really bad place. When this happens, even small things can add up, so it's not just any bad day, it's a bad day that ends up leading to a mental breakdown

 

[MortalPhoenix]

Basically, the dilemma with America and their gun 'rights' is this: They feel it necessary to prevent their country to have the so-called monopoly on violence. Where only the authorized personnel may carry firearms. To ordinary civilians, firearms are a privilege for a certain functions such as hunting. As you might have seen me repeat time after time, 2nd Amendment and the 'rights' they bestow have no place in 21st Century. Especially after all of the massacres I've constantly seen on the news. Sure, we Europeans have our own share of problems as well as you can imagine. But at least we WON'T have to constantly fear for our lives like this. And even if a Police officer has to fire a gun, it's nonethless regarded as a good thing if he or she doesn't HAVE to fire a single shot.

Get your smugness out of here. Guns are rights in the USA, no matter how much you don't think they are. The only solution you have is to repeal the 2nd amendment. Also, don't forget that the news is a private industry that wants news that keeps their viewers coming back. Of course they are going to talk about all the shooting, it is what drives up their ratings. :/

Now maybe I'm wrong, but when people refer to a "bad day" they don't mean just any bad day
A lot of people suffering from mental illness or depression try to hide it, and can appear just fine on the outside while on the inside they're in a really bad place. When this happens, even small things can add up, so it's not just any bad day, it's a bad day that ends up leading to a mental breakdown

I remember listening this podcast (or was it NPR?) in how in rural communities, they don't have mental healthcare centers. When they talk about this issue with other people within their community, they are told to tough it out. People in rural communities learn to solve their own issues, but there are just some issues that are greater than they can handle by themselves. I remember listening on it, how the only person in this rural community is one who went through depression himself and he talks to them over the phone to help them talk about their feelings on the matter.

https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(18)30005-9/fulltext

^ This article touches on the fact that we need to help out communities in the US, that lack mental healthcare facilities and professionals.

 

[PhoenixIgnition]

Here's what I think about the gun issue in the US, from my outsider non-american perspective:

It seems that like a lot of issues in america, a tiny minority of psychos causes wide-spread hysteria which threatens the way of life of the vast majority of people, who are sane and law-abiding.

From what I know, and correct me if i'm wrong, acquiring a gun legally in the US is not as easy as just going out and buying it. Not just anyone can do it legally. It seems like the problem lies mostly with people who don't have a criminal/mental history, get a gun and then commit a crime with it that's fueled by an undiagnosed, unnoticed mental disorder. Of course there is also the criminals who acquire guns illegally.

The thing is... It seems like anti-gunners just want to take away guns from the general population and/or make it unnecesarilly harder for people to get them, rather than trying to attack the root of the problem, which really doesn't lie with the general population or some lenient gun policies and laws, but rather with a tiny minority of the general population, and some criminals who will get guns illegally anyway and aren't affected by the strictness of the law in any state regarding gun ownership.

The only thing I think can and should be made stricter, is the psych evaluation process. I think any business selling guns should be required to demand a thourough psych evaluation from anyone coming to purchase a gun.

 

[BronzeHeart92]

Get your smugness out of here. Guns are rights in the USA, no matter how much you don't think they are. The only solution you have is to repeal the 2nd amendment. Also, don't forget that the news is a private industry that wants news that keeps their viewers coming back. Of course they are going to talk about all the shooting, it is what drives up their ratings. :/

Values dissonance, my friend. You Americans having guns just feels alien and wrong to me. I can't help it. That said, every human life is worth the same no matter where they live. If those massacres keep happening, is there any value in human beings at all? Will it truly be a dog eats dog world where only the fittest deserve to live?

Here's what I think about the gun issue in the US, from my outsider non-american perspective:

It seems that like a lot of issues in america, a tiny minority of psychos causes wide-spread hysteria which threatens the way of life of the vast majority of people, who are sane and law-abiding.

From what I know, and correct me if i'm wrong, acquiring a gun legally in the US is not as easy as just going out and buying it. Not just anyone can do it legally. It seems like the problem lies mostly with people who don't have a criminal/mental history, get a gun and then commit a crime with it that's fueled by an undiagnosed, unnoticed mental disorder. Of course there is also the criminals who acquire guns illegally.

The thing is... It seems like anti-gunners just want to take away guns from the general population and/or make it unnecesarilly harder for people to get them, rather than trying to attack the root of the problem, which really doesn't lie with the general population or some lenient gun policies and laws, but rather with a tiny minority of the general population, and some criminals who will get guns illegally anyway and aren't affected by the strictness of the law in any state regarding gun ownership.

The only thing I think can and should be made stricter, is the psych evaluation process. I think any business selling guns should be required to demand a thourough psych evaluation from anyone coming to purchase a gun.

True. But that still leaves the issue of guns being a 'right' in first place. If you know how, you can easily get one. There's a reason why that isn't the case over here in EU at all. If some people thing we are less free because of it, I think it's obvious they have never been here in first place.

 

[Nah]

You Americans having guns just feels alien and wrong to me.

you keep saying this, but I don't see what point you're trying to make here

 

[LDSman]

Now maybe I'm wrong, but when people refer to a "bad day" they don't mean just any bad day
A lot of people suffering from mental illness or depression try to hide it, and can appear just fine on the outside while on the inside they're in a really bad place. When this happens, even small things can add up, so it's not just any bad day, it's a bad day that ends up leading to a mental breakdown

Unfortunately most antigun people seem to believe that any gun owner will have a bad day and simply lash out in anger.

Here's what I think about the gun issue in the US, from my outsider non-american perspective:

It seems that like a lot of issues in america, a tiny minority of psychos causes wide-spread hysteria which threatens the way of life of the vast majority of people, who are sane and law-abiding.

There does seem to be a bit of hysteria in the demands to immediately do ?something?.

From what I know, and correct me if i'm wrong, acquiring a gun legally in the US is not as easy as just going out and buying it. Not just anyone can do it legally. It seems like the problem lies mostly with people who don't have a criminal/mental history, get a gun and then commit a crime with it that's fueled by an undiagnosed, unnoticed mental disorder. Of course there is also the criminals who acquire guns illegally.

. Most gun control laws affect the law abiding more than criminals. I?d rather see more laws that punish criminal use of a gun. Mandatory jail time.

The thing is... It seems like anti-gunners just want to take away guns from the general population and/or make it unnecesarilly harder for people to get them, rather than trying to attack the root of the problem, which really doesn't lie with the general population or some lenient gun policies and laws, but rather with a tiny minority of the general population, and some criminals who will get guns illegally anyway and aren't affected by the strictness of the law in any state regarding gun ownership.

Yep.

The only thing I think can and should be made stricter, is the psych evaluation process. I think any business selling guns should be required to demand a thourough psych evaluation from anyone coming to purchase a gun.

. And I disagree. Psych evaluations are time consuming and will only catch the obviously and immediately dangerous. It won?t predict with any large degree of accuracy the people that may eventually snap. And what shrink will sign off on this? If they?re wrong one way, they get sued by victims. If they are wrong the other way, the buyer sues for denial of a Constitutional Right.
See the Rosenhan experiment.

Values dissonance, my friend. You Americans having guns just feels alien and wrong to me.

It ?feels? wrong to me that law abiding citizens aren?t allowed to purchase weapons due to the actions of others.

I can't help it. That said, every human life is worth the same no matter where they live.

Most people find their own lives to be of more value than a random strangers. Ask them to give up their own life to save someone else and see what they say. Add negative things to the other person. Save a Nazi or junkie at the expense of your own?

True. But that still leaves the issue of guns being a 'right' in first place. If you know how, you can easily get one. There's a reason why that isn't the case over here in EU at all. If some people thing we are less free because of it, I think it's obvious they have never been here in first place.

It?s only an issue to you. People who know how can get a gun anywhere. Or make one.
Less free in certain values. I?m not going to get arrested for having a pocket knife or expressing something the government has decided they don?t like.

 

[BronzeHeart92]

LDSman: Then ask yourself this: Why we Europeans can't buy weapons in the same manner as you do? It's because of laws. And for a good reason too. And yes, while I do regard my own life as important thank you very much, I'm not heartless to consider other's lives as worthless.

 

[LDSman]

LDSman: Then ask yourself this: Why we Europeans can't buy weapons in the same manner as you do? It's because of laws.

Laws I consider short sighted and often foolish.

And for a good reason too. And yes, while I do regard my own life as important thank you very much, I'm not heartless to consider other's lives as worthless.

I don?t consider other people?s lives as worthless. In certain circumstances, a person?s life can be worth less than others, ie not as highly valued.

Would you sacrifice your life for a Nazi? Or a mother of two? Or a cancer patient who will die in days? Not dying saving their lives but some person shows up and says ?your life or theirs??

If you could pass a gun law that could in theory save the number of people equal to half of last years US gun deaths (homicides, not suicides) but would result in half the US gun owners being killed or imprisoned would you pass that law?

 

[MortalPhoenix]

LDSman: Then ask yourself this: Why we Europeans can't buy weapons in the same manner as you do? It's because of laws. And for a good reason too. And yes, while I do regard my own life as important thank you very much, I'm not heartless to consider other's lives as worthless.

Stop putting your two cents on a subject that is clearly alien to you.

 

[BronzeHeart92]

Laws I consider short sighted and often foolish.


I don?t consider other people?s lives as worthless. In certain circumstances, a person?s life can be worth less than others, ie not as highly valued.

Would you sacrifice your life for a Nazi? Or a mother of two? Or a cancer patient who will die in days? Not dying saving their lives but some person shows up and says ?your life or theirs??

If you could pass a gun law that could in theory save the number of people equal to half of last years US gun deaths (homicides, not suicides) but would result in half the US gun owners being killed or imprisoned would you pass that law?

The dilemma is this. Obviously being a Nazi is bad. And so are rapists and other criminal. The thing is, they are still human beings and they all deserve being treated as the human beings they ACTUALLY are. In other words, they're not monsters. I guess you do want the same thing as I, yes? Eradicating all crime. The key is to eliminate the possibility that a crime would ever occur. Take a close look a the circumstances why someone would CHOOSE a life of crime in first place and hopefully you will get it.

Yes, I would pass such a law. But the key is doing what Australia did all those years ago. Having to turn your weapons voluntarily with the possibility of a monetary compensation is quite an attractive proposition.

 

[MortalPhoenix]

Yes, I would pass such a law. But the key is doing what Australia did all those years ago. Having to turn your weapons voluntarily with the possibility of a monetary compensation is quite an attractive proposition.

^ You don't understand the USA, so you don't understand why this won't work. Gun owners aren't going to turn their guns into the Government, because they don't believe they are the issue. Why turn in your guns when you are a responsible gun owner? :/

 

[LDSman]

The dilemma is this. Obviously being a Nazi is bad. And so are rapists and other criminal. The thing is, they are still human beings and they all deserve being treated as the human beings they ACTUALLY are. In other words, they're not monsters.

. I notice you didn?t answer the question.

I guess you do want the same thing as I, yes? Eradicating all crime.

sure. Pipe dream though.

The key is to eliminate the possibility that a crime would ever occur.

. Wrong. Eliminate the desire or need to. If no one wants to rob their neighbors then you won?t need to disarm them. It won?t matter. That only works for the crimes related to desire though. Won?t stop passion related issues.

Take a close look a the circumstances why someone would CHOOSE a life of crime in first place and hopefully you will get it.

. Some are forced into others willfully choose it. Why work if I can just take it from someone else?

Yes, I would pass such a law.

. And that is why I dislike antigun activists. You would kill or imprison millions to possibly save thousands.

But the key is doing what Australia did all those years ago. Having to turn your weapons voluntarily with the possibility of a monetary compensation is quite an attractive proposition.

1. It wasn?t voluntary!!
2. The US govt could not afford to pay the actual cost of the guns.
3. The US would have no idea who owns what.
4. Most gun owners would prefer the guns over the cash. Would you give up a family heirloom for a little bit of money?

 

[BronzeHeart92]

^ You don't understand the USA, so you don't understand why this won't work. Gun owners aren't going to turn their guns into the Government, because they don't believe they are the issue. Why turn in your guns when you are a responsible gun owner? :/

Sure. But the dilemma is that guns aren't a 'right' over here and I'm ok with it. If you absolutely MUST have a gun, self-defence isn't concidered a valid reason for owning one in first place. Again, values dissonance you know. I'm just concerned over the future of America's children. I don't need to be afraid of some madman waiting to shoot some place up.

 

[Nah]

Sure. But the dilemma is that guns aren't a 'right' over here and I'm ok with it. If you absolutely MUST have a gun, self-defence isn't concidered a valid reason for owning one in first place. Again, values dissonance you know. I'm just concerned over the future of America's children. I don't need to be afraid of some madman waiting to shoot some place up.

"Values dissonance" doesn't offer an explanation on why it's right or wrong though. I'm sure that no one in this thread likes seeing all these innocent people die.

And personally, as an American, I don't live every day fearing that I'm going to be shot and killed by some gangster or America's Next Top Shooter. Though I suppose part of that has to do with the fact that I live in a little town where nobody does anything instead of say Newark or Detroit or whatever cities are considered dangerous these days, and that I don't care a whole if I do get shot.

Stop putting your two cents on a subject that is clearly alien to you.

I would rather that we not tell people to stop talking and go away.

 

[BronzeHeart92]

"Values dissonance" doesn't offer an explanation on why it's right or wrong though. I'm sure that no one in this thread likes seeing all these innocent people die.

And personally, as an American, I don't live every day fearing that I'm going to be shot and killed by some gangster or America's Next Top Shooter. Though I suppose part of that has to do with the fact that I live in a little town where nobody does anything instead of say Newark or Detroit or whatever cities are considered dangerous these days, and that I don't care a whole if I do get shot.

Yes, that might be true. But hey, that's why I'm concerned really. No one needs to die needlessly after all. And since nothing lasts forever, the day when people of cities such as Newark can stop living in fear might come after all. All that's needed is patience.

I would rather that we not tell people to stop talking and go away.

Absolutery agree with you. That's how they win everytime really. They ramble on and on in hopes that the ones opposing their ideology gives up and quit. And rest assured, even if I was born and raised in USA, I would never touch a gun regardless. Because that goes against my very nature.

 

[Frequency]

Honestly? I still think it's a complicated problem with no immediate answer. I mean sure we could say "haha let's ban guns" but then I'm certain there are more than enough gun owners who aren't thinking about shooting up a Madden tournament that would feel their right to bear arms (as well as right to self-defense) are immediately thrown out the window. And the people who are out here snapping with guns would probably find a way to get their hands on one anyway. Not really interested in punishing a (presumably) legal majority for that. That said these ARE lives we're talking about...

I think having more guidelines on who gets a gun may be a step in the right direction, but I'm not sure. Other people in the thread mentioned discouraging gun crimes in the first place, which while a good idea that I agree with, how would that work in practice? A lot of mass shooters end up killing themselves anyway or definitely don't care about getting a death penalty if they were planning to shoot up -insert establishment here- anyway. That sort of thing would really only be effective on an individual level, which is a nice small step, but doesn't really stop bar and school shootings.

Of course, I'm speaking hypothetically, so feel free to tell me "You're wrong and you're stupid" at any point.

 

[BronzeHeart92]

Hakumen: Well, the obvious dilemma is that WHY guns are a 'right' over in USA when practically everywhere else it's not. Do we Europeans need guns for example? Well, outside of very specific situations, the answer's obviously no. And i'm sure it would do USA good in the long term to adopt that mindset too.

 

[Frequency]

Hakumen: Well, the obvious dilemma is that WHY guns are a 'right' over in USA when practically everywhere else it's not. Do we Europeans need guns for example? Well, outside of very specific situations, the answer's obviously no. And i'm sure it would do USA good in the long term to adopt that mindset too.

Problem with America is that you have a lot more places that deal with crippling poverty and more than enough people willing to break in someone's house or something of the sort under the pretense of "Doing what I gotta do". Granted, since I'm from a very volatile environment (Thanks Detroit this is your fault), my outlook on needing guns is different because of the odds that someone will try to mug you, or break into your house, or hold you up, or any number of things that I can think of. You have places where your chances of being a target of a crime is like 1 out of 200 people or maybe less, and considering the population of cities, that's pretty damn high. So you'll have sides of the fence where you got people who get their hands on guns regardless of method to go commit crimes or you have people owning guns because crime rates lean you in the direction of owning one since you could step outside for a store run and be threatened for no reason other than "I was outside at the wrong time" and that's just how it is. Sounds crazy but it's very true.

I COULD talk on why guns are a right and why they should/shouldn't be but I'm not really here to talk about that. I think that's another discussion for another time.

 

[LDSman]

"Values dissonance" doesn't offer an explanation on why it's right or wrong though. I'm sure that no one in this thread likes seeing all these innocent people die.

I know I don't. I'd rather see armed people fighting back instead of unarmed people trying to be human shields.

And personally, as an American, I don't live every day fearing that I'm going to be shot and killed by some gangster or America's Next Top Shooter. Though I suppose part of that has to do with the fact that I live in a little town where nobody does anything instead of say Newark or Detroit or whatever cities are considered dangerous these days, and that I don't care a whole if I do get shot.

Most of the US gun homicides are confined to large cities that are huge gun control areas. There was something showing the breakdown. It also mentioned that if you aren't involved in or involved with someone who is involved in the drug trade or gang lifestyle, you really have nothing to fear about getting shot. Odds are greater for lightning strikes.

I would rather that we not tell people to stop talking and go away.

Be nice if it was an actual debate.

Yes, that might be true. But hey, that's why I'm concerned really. No one needs to die needlessly after all. And since nothing lasts forever, the day when people of cities such as Newark can stop living in fear might come after all. All that's needed is patience.

People die needlessly of many other things. Plan to ban alcohol, cars, the medical field? And you are right that nothing lasts forever. That includes peaceful times. Can you defend yourself and your family if society is collapsing around you?

Absolutery agree with you. That's how they win everytime really. They ramble on and on in hopes that the ones opposing their ideology gives up and quit. And rest assured, even if I was born and raised in USA, I would never touch a gun regardless. Because that goes against my very nature.

But you are rambling? I'm still waiting and hoping you'll defend your comments. You should actually learn more about firearms. And one of the ways you learn is by going to a gun class or gun range and using a gun.

Honestly? I still think it's a complicated problem with no immediate answer. I mean sure we could say "haha let's ban guns" but then I'm certain there are more than enough gun owners who aren't thinking about shooting up a Madden tournament that would feel their right to bear arms (as well as right to self-defense) are immediately thrown out the window. And the people who are out here snapping with guns would probably find a way to get their hands on one anyway. Not really interested in punishing a (presumably) legal majority for that. That said these ARE lives we're talking about...

Well, Bronze has stated he'd be willing to kill or imprison gun owners in the hope of saving lives.

I think having more guidelines on who gets a gun may be a step in the right direction, but I'm not sure. Other people in the thread mentioned discouraging gun crimes in the first place, which while a good idea that I agree with, how would that work in practice?

For the basic gun crimes, IE not mass shootings, extra jail time. Jail time for people that commit straw purchases for the felon friends or family.

A lot of mass shooters end up killing themselves anyway or definitely don't care about getting a death penalty if they were planning to shoot up -insert establishment here- anyway. That sort of thing would really only be effective on an individual level, which is a nice small step, but doesn't really stop bar and school shootings.

Short of turning every establishment into a secured building, I'd go for allowing more citizens to carry concealed. There were and have been people who normally carry concealed not carrying because of laws or rules and end up regretting that.

Of course, I'm speaking hypothetically, so feel free to tell me "You're wrong and you're stupid" at any point.

You aren't wrong and contributing isn't stupid.

Hakumen: Well, the obvious dilemma is that WHY guns are a 'right' over in USA when practically everywhere else it's not. Do we Europeans need guns for example? Well, outside of very specific situations, the answer's obviously no. And i'm sure it would do USA good in the long term to adopt that mindset too.

That's not a dilemma. The Founders of the US recognize that governments can become corrupt tyrannies and an armed populace can prevent that from happening.

Problem with America is that you have a lot more places that deal with crippling poverty and more than enough people willing to break in someone's house or something of the sort under the pretense of "Doing what I gotta do".

There are places in the EU that are just as bad or worse. Multiple break ins per year. Last forum I debated this topic in, I shared links to surveys and whatnot that showed that people were less scared to walk around at night in the US that in the UK.

Granted, since I'm from a very volatile environment (Thanks Detroit this is your fault), my outlook on needing guns is different because of the odds that someone will try to mug you, or break into your house, or hold you up, or any number of things that I can think of. You have places where your chances of being a target of a crime is like 1 out of 200 people or maybe less, and considering the population of cities, that's pretty damn high. So you'll have sides of the fence where you got people who get their hands on guns regardless of method to go commit crimes or you have people owning guns because crime rates lean you in the direction of owning one since you could step outside for a store run and be threatened for no reason other than "I was outside at the wrong time" and that's just how it is. Sounds crazy but it's very true.

There are any number of scenarios where guns are necessary for protection. Hurricane Katrina, King Riots, random attacks for no freaking reason.

I COULD talk on why guns are a right and why they should/shouldn't be but I'm not really here to talk about that. I think that's another discussion for another time.

Well the thread is US Gun Control and it might help Bronze to understand it.