Smogon was considering, and has now enacted, a complete ban of Baton Pass in OU

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-pass-in-sm-ou.3604290

Smogon said:

The OU Council believes that Baton Pass, as a move, should be banned from the SM OU metagame. Despite having a clause implemented to hinder Baton Pass teams, there are clearly still effective teams that make use of this strategy. Baton Pass teams are one of the most controversial parts of the metagame currently and this is in large part due to the strategy behind them, passing stat boosts to threatening Pokemon that can take advantage of them without many drawbacks. Common abusers of this strategy, such as Necrozma, Magearna, and Espeon, take advantage of being passed Speed boosts from Scolipede and then set up on their own, proceeding to sweep through a significant portion of the metagame and teams that are used. Therefore, the OU council believes that these teams have no place in the SM OU metagame and we must do something to change this.

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Thoughts?

Just wow. And I thought Smogon couldn't get any more foolish or cheesy with their tiering. This is just more thoughtless banning of mechanics that work well, but in no way dominate the overall metagame.

Essentially it's always something, they ban something new every 6 months to a year when they get tired of the hot mess they've already made to their battling. Eventually every pokemon will be reduced to Tackle and Struggle at this rate.

Uh huh.

Why? Someone enlighten me. My usual format these days are VGC/Battle Spot.

Frozocrone said:

Uh huh.

Why? Someone enlighten me. My usual format these days are VGC/Battle Spot.

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I guess it's because Smogon formats are usually 6v6 singles, so it gives more opportunities for players to pass boosts to the rest of the team rather than being restricted to 3 Pokemon a la BSS. In VGC, it's even harder because you don't have much room to switch due to the risk of the opponent focusing their attacks on the Baton Passer. If the opponent gets off a Baton Pass, this can turn otherwise unassuming Pokemon into threatening killing machines.

Eh, I don't think it's necessary. Baton Pass teams aren't in any way unbeatable. They're extremely vulnerable to Taunt, status and priority and Scolipede itself is basically a non-competitor.

Hmm, well I read the arguments thrown forward and it's not necessarily Baton Pass is unhealthy, but rather a combination of Baton Pass and other variables such as recipient, stats passed and user of Baton Pass - and instead of making more complex bans, they want to ban Baton Pass as a simple ban.

I guess that makes sense, if Baton Pass is breaking multiple Pokemon then it's best to just make a blanket ban and stop that, even if there is collateral. They didn't ban Speed Boost + Blaziken, they didn't ban Protean + Greninja + Gunk Shot and Swift Swim and Rain in Gen 5 was highly controversial at the time.

Now if they could ban Leppa Berry instead of having the most complex ban possible for Endless Battle, that would be swell.

Melody said:

Just wow. And I thought Smogon couldn't get any more foolish or cheesy with their tiering. This is just more thoughtless banning of mechanics that work well, but in no way dominate the overall metagame.

Essentially it's always something, they ban something new every 6 months to a year when they get tired of the hot mess they've already made to their battling. Eventually every pokemon will be reduced to Tackle and Struggle at this rate.

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It's probably not necessary for me to say any of this at this point, but I have nothing else to do and am in that sort of mood right now, so....

It is fine to not like the Smogon metagame/format of battling. It's not a perfect system by any means. It is not necessarily the pinnacle of competitive Pokemon battling or the best/only way to play it, and anyone who--both those that play within it and those that don't--thinks so or thinks that the system thinks it is, is, quite frankly, an idiot. It's merely one attempt to make an enjoyable metagame is all--one that a lot of people seem to like at that.

Obviously you can't please everyone, and even those who play in it have their individual gripes or disagreements, but it would be nice if people would try to offer actually valid criticisms of the Smogon metagame system rather than the usual virulent nonsense many people post (note: not literally everyone does, but it is far more common to see people post bullshit than real points). They're kind of pointless posts really. Let's try to break to cycle instead--this has been going on forever now and I'm sure everyone is tired of it.

I never did understand why though people get so up in arms over a metagame they don't even have to participate in. There are viable alternatives with active scenes in VGC and Battle Spot, it's not as if Smogon has a monopoly on competitive Pokemon battling.

...

I am in support of banning Baton Pass altogether. While it's not a completely meta dominating thing and isn't as obviously broken as other obviously broken things (like trapping abilities or Zygarde-Complete for example), I still feel that, even after all the complex bans, it's still a load of shit, largely for reasons Aurora has stated. Set-up sweepers are already good enough this generation anyway. The OU council has tried to keep it in the game in a healthy form for some time now, and it clearly hasn't worked; it's time for Baton Pass to go.

Without Baton Pass, low tier Pokémon will not have any chances to used in OU, which is bad. And don't try to point me that broken Pokémon can also use Baton Pass, which is why I suggest just ban the move being used on only OU and Uber Pokémon so UU, RU, NU, and PU Pokémon have a better chance in the high tiers.

Pinkie-Dawn said:

Without Baton Pass, low tier Pokémon will not have any chances to used in OU, which is bad. And don't try to point me that broken Pokémon can also use Baton Pass, which is why I suggest just ban the move being used on only OU and Uber Pokémon so UU, RU, NU, and PU Pokémon have a better chance in the high tiers.

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Scolipede would drop to UU if BP was banned on it. Then it'd become a problem again. Same issue would arise with any BP user. Sure, Scolipede could rise again once BP becomes usable on it, but it'd be very confusing if it were allowed and disallowed about every four months. It's a poor solution.

You know, I don't battle competitively, but I'll say, it's pretty interesting how in Gens III and IV (and to a lesser extent V, but that was before Speed Boost Scolipede was a thing), Baton Pass teams were deemed as pretty hard to use for various reasons, because of things like phasers such as Skarmory, and all the entry hazards that were a thing.

And now here they are considering a complete ban. Guess phasing isn't as useful since the 3DS games dawned down.

Power creep.

In DSi games, there wasn't these huge AF attack stats from Megas or super charged moves like Stored Power (admittedly that was in Gen 5) or Baton Passers with Speed Boost that don't die to a stiff breeze like Ninjask does.

Swagroar said:

And now here they are considering a complete ban. Guess phasing isn't as useful since the 3DS games dawned down.

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That's the thing. Baton Pass teams force you to run something like Haze, Taunt or Dragon Tail, and the former only really has two useful users in OU - Toxapex and Mantine. Even though it may seem like you're being forced to run specific members on your team, bear in mind that Haze is a bad way of dealing with Baton Pass because it's so easy to play around. The former will end up losing to Xurkitree, Mawile (if it packs an Electric move) and Necrozma, to name a few, and the latter will lose to Xurkitree as well, but also Mega Heracross. There's also Quagsire, but it's such a bad Pokemon on its own that it's only really used in stall teams. The fact that you have to pack it to deal with BP speaks volumes about how overcentralising the move is.

It should be noted that every hazer is going to lose to Magearna, because it's specially equipped to counter BP counters if given the right set. Thunderbolt will put the kibosh on Toxapex and Mantine, and there's also the fact that you can't Dragon Tail it either due to its typing. As for Quagsire, it gets stopped by Dugtrio which is commonly packed on BP teams, who can Toxic it and then threaten to remove it from the game. Taunt is blocked by Espeon, and it's a common recipient of BP boosts and it can hit really hard back with Stored Power, as well as having a good Speed tier to back it up (it outspeeds base 100 and higher like Garchomp and Megazard X without boosts).

So basically, there's no hard counter to Baton Pass because teams carry a lot of counters to their counters. It's perfectly possible to lose a match just from the team preview - if you see a Scolipede and other set-up sweepers like Espeon and Mawile as mentioned, you know that Baton Pass is coming, and you should do something to stop it. Basically, the only real way to stop it is to use something that hard-counters Scolipede and other common threats like Espeon, Xurkitree and Magearna, as well as dealing with Dugtrio, and it puts a massive strain on teambuilding because your team will end up being weak to something else. Also, consider that Scolipede has a lot of bulk to be able to come back in and Baton Pass its boosts again.

Honestly I am not sure how I feel about the potential Baton Pass ban. For one, I do think it is a rather uncompetitive strategy with few drawbacks, especially when used with Scolipede since Scolipede doesn't actually have to have extra turns to set up. It simply sets up by being out on the field. I haven't seen any of the threats that have been given as examples as Pokemon that abuse this mechanic, other than Magearna which I agree could get out of hand. The problem is the unpredictability, as you don't know at first whether you're facing a speed-passing Scolipede or simply a sweeping / hazard setting Scolipede. If you assume the latter, you've got to send something out that can handle Scolipede, but if it then passes to Magearna, then chances are good what you just sent out to handle Scolipede can't do -much against Magearna.

The fact that it gives Pokemon like Necrozma and Espeon renewed viability in OU to me says that it's definitely worth a look. These are incredibly niche choices though outside of this team archetype so it's worth asking whether they can be reasonably dealt with by opposing threats without having to sacrifice too much on that teammate's moveset. Necrozma would probably need to be phazed/hazed - are there threats that can reasonably switch in on Necrozma and phaze/haze it? (Would need to be able to take 2+ hits, theoretically) Espeon is a lot trickier, for while its physical bulk is pathetic, it can only be phazed by Dragon Tail and Circle Throw.

I hope they do a regular suspect test, rather than vote by the council. Honestly, it would be great to see what some people come up with in order to combat Baton Pass teams. It might just mean that counterteaming Baton Pass requires you to sacrifice too much on Pokemon's standard movesets. Yes you can run Roar/Whirlwind, but that leaves you vulnerable to an Espeon sweep. You could run Dragon Tail or Circle Throw for Espeon, but that would leave you vulnerable to sweeps from Fairy and Ghost types, respectively (not to mention the sparse distribution of Circle Throw).

I ultimately think it'll be banned. It's not healthy for teambuilding. Whereas in Gen 3 where a simple Haze/Whirlwind could shut down most Baton Pass chains in their early stages, there is simply too much to account for now with the number of Magic Bounce users and Fairy types viable in OU. Scolipede is something that can pass Speed Boosts with little drawback and oftentimes is able to do it a second or third time in a match.

Baton Pass can go die in a hole. Well, except for drypassing, as it is healthy for the metagame.

I am still having nightmares over losing to GeoPass bullshit last gen, and today I got swept by EvoBoost + Baton Pass EEVEE paired with Mewtwo in ubers (sure, upon me also learning paralysis got nerfed in gen 7).

BTW can someone tell me if Baton Pass chains are banned?

KorpiklaaniVodka v2.0 said:

Baton Pass can go die in a hole. Well, except for drypassing, as it is healthy for the metagame.

I am still having nightmares over losing to GeoPass bull**** last gen, and today I got swept by EvoBoost + Baton Pass EEVEE paired with Mewtwo in ubers (sure, upon me also learning paralysis got nerfed in gen 7).

BTW can someone tell me if Baton Pass chains are banned?

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Baton Pass chains are currently banned, with a maximum of one teammate allowed to have the move Baton Pass and not allowed to pass speed boosts alongside other stat boosts.

Mobile Tsk said:

Baton Pass chains are currently banned, with a maximum of one teammate allowed to have the move Baton Pass and not allowed to pass speed boosts alongside other stat boosts.

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So basically like gen 6? Were they banned from the start then?

Who even cares about Speed + x boost being barred from passing, all you need is a couple of speed boosts to something like Mega Heracross or some other slow wallbreaker, put SD on the wallbreaker and watch it go to town.

Giving it a bit more thought, I'd support either a Baton Pass ban or Stat Pass ban. Smogon would probably choose the former though if it's really keen on simple bans.

KorpiklaaniVodka v2.0 said:

So basically like gen 6? Were they banned from the start then?

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Yeah, they carried over the Gen 6 BP clause to Sun/Moon from the beginning.

BP is hard to play around and I could see why they'd consider a full-ban. As someone who likes to play with a BP team on occasion, I might be a bit biased in saying it's a fun mechanic that has already been nerfed enough to not be broken, and has enough counters, albeit not easy or straightforward ones, to remain allowable.

Yet again I disagree with the competitive Pokemon battling community's ideas for competitive rulesets. Banning a tactic because some people think it's not fun isn't a good philosophy for a competitive game.

To people saying that baton pass teams take no skill: Lucky for you, Pokemon has a built-in feedback system in this fancy thing called "the results". If you lost it's because your gameplan pre-battle and mid-battle were not as good as your opponent's. That's all there is to it. If you're playing to win, then the smartest way of going about that is using what you believe are the best strategies available to you. "Skill" in regards to a competitive game refers to one's ability to win consistently. It does not refer "reads" or "game knowledge" or anything like that, although they are aspects to consider that contribute to being a skilled player.

Baton Pass has many answers, and is by no means a perfect solution to the game, or an unbeatable strategy. Banning a tactic because you're being forced to adapt your teambuilding to that tactic completely disregards any sort of competitive spirit of the game.

These are the only two reasons any strategy should be banned, in any competitive game:
- Makes the game unplayable
- Invalidates all other strategies

"Makes the game unplayable" refers to things that cause infinite battles, or things of that nature. Making the game unable to be finished is a valid reason to ban a tactic.

"Invalidates all other strategies" means that it would either have to be clearly and inarguably unbeatable, or it needs to cause a demonstrable centralization of the metagame. If a majority of of the top 100 players in a category are using a tactic, and that tactic plays a central part of each battle it's a part of, then maybe I would consider the possibility of a ban being reasonable.

The point of a competitive game is to compete. If you're losing to a strategy, the proper competitive response is to better yourself as a player and account for it in your gameplan and teambuilding.