Lets Be Honest ...... -_-

Lets be honest with our selfs
Is THIS really a pokemon series I mean CMON No one gonna admit how bad sm is ????
I Really miss XY / Z Gen 1 Series IS better than SM
Pokemon xyz Was The ONLY Anime i watched seriously it was the best Any Ways Lets Forgot XYZ
Lets just see how bad ash become HE IS LIKE TOP 5 POKEMON LEAGUE ALMOST WINNERS WHY DO HE NEED TO BE IN SCHOOL
The ART STYLE IS STUPID And The CHARACTERS *Beside Ash Rival* Are Dumb and the story is boring
Pokemon Become JOKE ......
Pokemon now days is only for kids .....
-_-

To be fair, Ash will be challenging a league very soon, so it's at least redeemable for that.

As far as the characters, personally, I actually LIKED Lana, and besides, Lillie at least had better development than May did.

Agreed with the art style though, it was pretty bad. Though that being said, I didn't mind Misty and Brock's designs even though I personally preferred their old designs.

If we are lucky then we have to endure SM only one more year and then let's see if Ash is getting more mature and hope the art style is getting better again. But the Nebby-arc starts so it could be interesting.

Prochief said:

If we are lucky then we have to endure SM only one more year and then let's see if Ash is getting more mature and hope the art style is getting better again. But the Nebby-arc starts so it could be interesting.

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Yeah, and depending on whether Ash wins the league this time or not, we may only have to endure the anime itself for at least one more year.

First of all this series has the potential to go on for 2 more years.
The concept of School was started to bring something new in the anime (different from previous seasons). The schools is not that they are teaching the basics of battling and Pokemon so it's quite good.
Plus in the last episode professor Kukui mentioned that he will start a league in Alola which means Gyms and Pokemon league are coming back so the old flavour is not lost with additional things (school, z moves, grand trials).
Since we haven't even reached the half of SM the characters aren't that developed, but eventually they all will be skilled battlers.
I would also loved to see Ash winning the league but that won't happen cause the writers don't want to show Ash as a champion.
I can agree with you on the Art Style tbh.

1) The anime has always been aimed at children and anyone who expected the anime to become grittier and more mature as they themselves grew older is foolish.
2) Ash originally had no intention of going to school but because Alola had already sorts of Pok?mon decided to stay there. Frankly a school, while under utilised right now, was a much welcome break from the repetitive jarring format of travelling from A to B.
3) The art style was primarily used to allow simpler movements for greater fluidity of animation. This is evident in not just the Pok?mon battles but also between the humans. Subjective, but by no means 'bad'.
4) The story is likely to kick into effect next episode but we also have some other storylines such as Tapu Koko interest and Lillie's fear. It seems like a few storylines are being dropped as the writers experiment with certain things.
5) Characters are highly subjective and the only ones I expect much from are Lillie and to an extent Ash. The others seem to be a supporting cast and I'm OK with that, even if they have smaller goals than 'Pokemon Master'.

If I was being honest with myself, I would gladly take the SM saga and it's 'crappy art style' over the sexist piece of s*** that the XY saga gave us.

I doubt that SM will last two more years because the Nebby-arc starts and they said in the E3 itself that it can be that new game can last over a year, with other words SM will most likely end in November / December 2018. A good indication of this is what was said in the E3 they rushed the Akala Island and now the Nebby-arc begins.

Frozocrone said:

1) The anime has always been aimed at children and anyone who expected the anime to become grittier and more mature as they themselves grew older is foolish.

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I could care less about the grittier and more mature bit, but what I DO ask for is that they at LEAST attempt to make sure Ash actually succeeds in his stupid goal, actually GIVE a clear and concise statement of what his goal entails, and actually have him age so that, at the very least, him actually travelling from region to region comes across as plausible (I mean, for goodness sakes, it's a Rocky Balboa-esque show which makes aging somewhat inevitable). That, and at least having main villains who actually ARE threatening enough to actually make them a worthwhile antagonist, more than Team Rocket, I should add.

2) Ash originally had no intention of going to school but because Alola had already sorts of Pok?mon decided to stay there. Frankly a school, while under utilised right now, was a much welcome break from the repetitive jarring format of travelling from A to B.

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Problem is, Ash already proved, multiple times, that he didn't even NEED to go to school in the first place anyway (as early as The School of Hard Knocks in fact). And for the record, him actually overseeing the development of a league would have been just as much of a welcome break, and a far better representation of Ash's growth than him being forced into a school environment and, until now, wasn't even allowed to pursue his goal.

3) The art style was primarily used to allow simpler movements for greater fluidity of animation. This is evident in not just the Pok?mon battles but also between the humans. Subjective, but by no means 'bad'.

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It's not like they can't create smoother movements with the old animation style. Heck, Disney films had a lot of really fluidity and animation, and they generally looked much better than SM's art style.

4) The story is likely to kick into effect next episode but we also have some other storylines such as Tapu Koko interest and Lillie's fear. It seems like a few storylines are being dropped as the writers experiment with certain things.

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To be fair, Lillie's fear's largely been resolved with that Alolan Vulpix, and besides, it's probably going to get a bit more focus now that her mom's entering the picture (and if it's anything like the games, she's probably going to have a similar role in her daughter's fear as well).

5) Characters are highly subjective and the only ones I expect much from are Lillie and to an extent Ash. The others seem to be a supporting cast and I'm OK with that, even if they have smaller goals than 'Pokemon Master'.

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Eh, to be honest, Lana and Mallow at least have goals comparable to Ash's (and believe me, compared to Ash's goal, Lana's goal if it's anything like Misty's goal is a LOT more defined than Ash's goal ever was.).

If I was being honest with myself, I would gladly take the SM saga and it's 'crappy art style' over the sexist piece of s*** that the XY saga gave us.

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Well, I can agree with you that XY wasn't exactly good especially regarding Serena (and personally, I thought May and Dawn were about as bad if not even worse. If anything, the only female characters I actually did like were Iris and Misty.). However, I will mention that the only part of XY I actually DO like was the fact that Ash was actually depicted as a seasoned pro, not to mention showing the Gym Leaders in a better light compared to AG, DP, and BW (still not quite to OS level, but certainly closer to that than the other three shows).

I doubt that SM will last two more years because the Nebby-arc starts and they said in the E3 itself that it can be that new game can last over a year, with other words SM will most likely end in November / December 2018. A good indication of this is what was said in the E3 they rushed the Akala Island and now the Nebby-arc begins.

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We'll see. Don't forget we still have to worry about Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, so even if Sun and Moon will be outdated by that point, we'd still have a ways to go before Generation VIII comes out or is even announced, and that's ASSUMING we even get a Generation VIII anime by that point considering there's the likelihood that Ash will actually WIN the league, marking the first time other than Orange Islands that Ash has actually WON a league and probably mark the end of the series.

Now while I loved XY, I also do like SM for differing reasons. Yes, XY was more mature, darker tone, showed Ash actually being broken as a person which ideally should have happened because he just always bounces back and never doubted himself before. Same happened to Serena after her first loss which was also good imo. Don't really see how XY was sexist as apart from the performances being made for females only (seems like something that's French to me which fits with the region), I was pleased with Serena and Bonnie as well, may have made a few tweaks here and there but not too much. The gym leaders were powerful (Ash lost three times I think which was fresh to see). His challenges seemed immense for once while still carrying across the fact that he was seasoned as a trainer and thought on his feet.

As for SM, the art style for Ash is the only thing I don't like, everyone else fits perfectly with it imo. The fluidity of the animation sequences are amazing but the battles and their importance are too few and far in between which sort of takes away for me as it makes it seem that Ash will win. Also in regards to animation, XY battles were already amazing to me so if it stayed I would not have been bothered. Back to SM, the art style fits the tone of the show as well but let us not forget how emotional it gets at times. That litten episode is one of the most beautifully depressing things I've seen in a while.

This brings me to the point of while it's made for kids, there are many episodes where the situations deals with much more mature themes which only older viewers would understand. If they did not care fully about the older audience, they would not put effort into dealing with them at times.

XY sexism hinged on

1) Typically gender tailored roles in a female only event
2) Females barely did any battles in the series (shout-out to Astrid and Korrina, the only characters to have their Megas beaten by non-megas).
3) Get the short end of the stick in regards to Pok?mon (Serena gets 3, Ash gets 6 and his own Mega, Clemont gets 3 and his gym Mons, not including Dedenne. Shauna gets a middle stage starter, Tierno and Trevor get final evos).
4) Serena constantly depicted as a damsel in distress. Clemont and Blaziken Mask are both able to defeat admins of Team Flare. Serena has to be bailed out by Steven after trying to fend off some grunts. Even Mairin is neutered by her failing to remember she has a Flabebe and instead relies on others to save Chespie.
5) Females shoved aside so the men can save Kalos (Diantha excluded, who apparently isn't a strong enough champion and instead needs Steven).

Rajas20 said:

Now while I loved XY, I also do like SM for differing reasons. Yes, XY was more mature, darker tone, showed Ash actually being broken as a person which ideally should have happened because he just always bounces back and never doubted himself before. Same happened to Serena after her first loss which was also good imo. Don't really see how XY was sexist as apart from the performances being made for females only (seems like something that's French to me which fits with the region), I was pleased with Serena and Bonnie as well, may have made a few tweaks here and there but not too much. The gym leaders were powerful (Ash lost three times I think which was fresh to see). His challenges seemed immense for once while still carrying across the fact that he was seasoned as a trainer and thought on his feet.

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XY's Gym Leaders is pretty much one of its biggest saving points for me, especially after how crappily the Gym Leaders were depicted from AG up to BW. Long story short, they're either depicted as having the competency and skills of Team Rocket in "Ash Catches a Pok?mon" when they fought against Caterpie (ie, not even being remotely competent, or skilled), or, in the case of DP, they do come across as competent, but only after Ash and Pikachu have their skills downgraded despite the latter beating a Regice. If anything, they came far closer to the Original Series' gym leaders in terms of awesomeness.

Beyond that, it has its flaws. I assume the sexist remark from Frozocrone was referring to how Serena for most of her run was just a satellite character for Ash, literally only bothering to journey at all because of him, and the fact that, even compared to May and Dawn, she didn't even have a goal that related to battling at all (I'm not fond of Pok?mon Coordinator goals especially when they are frankly overrated since they aren't even important to completing the game, but at least THAT had some battling while Serena and her Pok?mon are essentially doing J-Pop stuff.), and essentially getting a lot less Pok?mon and taking longer to decide on her goal than even May.

As for SM, the art style for Ash is the only thing I don't like, everyone else fits perfectly with it imo. The fluidity of the animation sequences are amazing but the battles and their importance are too few and far in between which sort of takes away for me as it makes it seem that Ash will win. Also in regards to animation, XY battles were already amazing to me so if it stayed I would not have been bothered. Back to SM, the art style fits the tone of the show as well but let us not forget how emotional it gets at times. That litten episode is one of the most beautifully depressing things I've seen in a while.

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Wasn't fond of SM's artstyle for Ash either, as it just plain didn't look good. Misty and even Brock looked somewhat good, but I ultimately prefer their original artstyle. And anyways, I really don't understand why they couldn't just, I don't know, increase the fluidity of the animation with the original art style?

This brings me to the point of while it's made for kids, there are many episodes where the situations deals with much more mature themes which only older viewers would understand. If they did not care fully about the older audience, they would not put effort into dealing with them at times.

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And in the Original Series, it was meant to be for family audiences, not just kids, so some of the episodes back then were actually fairly dark especially compared to now (heck, the first episode essentially deconstructed the first day of being a trainer).

Ah i get where you're coming from then although I felt at the time that most of it made sense from just the standpoint that they tried to make it new/fresh which is why I thought it fit the region depicted so well. Fashion/performing is what made it different from contests which I assumed the writers didn't want to use again. As for having three pokemon, most of Ash's companions never had a full squad did they? Honestly cannot recall because I haven't revisited old regions. Shauna's Ivysaur didn't fully evolve solely from a performance standpoint in my eyes and again I felt they didn't add males to the performing due to making it different from contests. Whether in the writers minds, they had viewed it from that standpoint versus one of being sexist is another thing in itself as I'd like to believe it wasn't. The length of time passing for Serena to choose her goal was admittedly too long but again I felt her growth from there onwards was solid.

Her battle skills were not top notch I'd admit as she seemed to not care for that aspect with her Pokemon which is at least her sticking to her chosen path of being a performer versus a battler like Ash. It was not perfect ofc and I see where you're coming from but I guess my outlook on how it was presented is different which is why I accepted her character for what it was. I was more into the hints as to why she left to meet Ash etc, her difficulties with her mom, the quitter aspect to her and the fact that she was someone who struggled with self confidence. Yes Ash was a conduit for her major growth which is expected seeing that the writers wanted the show to be Ash being viewed through the eyes of the female lead but I also felt that throughout the series Ash used her for inspiration as well in a few gym battles etc.

I guess I agree with some of the points presented and accept they could have been done better but for some I see reasons for them although it won't be universally accepted. Comparing her to the past female companions, I found her to be different and hardly showing any traits of them which also made her feel fresh to me rather than a rehash of someone else.

The series hasn't ever been amazing.
But XYZ was the best it has been, yes, but the only ones I did not like were gen 2 and 3. I like where SM is going.

Ida13 said:

The series hasn't ever been amazing.
But XYZ was the best it has been, yes, but the only ones I did not like were gen 2 and 3. I like where SM is going.

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Eh, I personally thought Gen 2 was a lot better than Gen 3. Sure, it had a huge string of fillers, possibly, but at least we saw REAL progression in Ash's goal in Gen 2. With Gen 3, we could skip it and not miss anything save for maybe Team Rocket having a different team and Ash having an Aipom.

And either way, I'm also liking that SM is actually bringing about a league. It's about high time, especially after how they openly advertised that they won't have one since before it aired.

weedle_mchairybug said:

Eh, I personally thought Gen 2 was a lot better than Gen 3. Sure, it had a huge string of fillers, possibly, but at least we saw REAL progression in Ash's goal in Gen 2. With Gen 3, we could skip it and not miss anything save for maybe Team Rocket having a different team and Ash having an Aipom.

And either way, I'm also liking that SM is actually bringing about a league. It's about high time, especially after how they openly advertised that they won't have one since before it aired.

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Gen 3 was my least favorite. I like how in XYZ and in SM the legendaries are important.

Ida13 said:

Gen 3 was my least favorite. I like how in XYZ and in SM the legendaries are important.

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Yeah, mine too, at least regarding the anime. They made the Gym Leaders, barring Brawley and possibly Roxanne, into a bunch of wimps and set a standard that lasted for three whole generations for XY to truly undo (and even there, only the most recent episodes involving Misty and Brock managed to truly redeem Gym Leaders). It started the infamous girl-swap that happens every generation for various... reasons. And to make matters worse, it also had Ash not only not doing ANY better in the league than in Johto, but even the single major accomplishment he ever had in that generation, winning the Battle Frontier, was ultimately treated as a complete joke in Generation 4 thanks to another standard this series effectively started: Level resets.

I'm not fond of the School Environment of SM, but at least we're actually getting somewhere now that they've announced a league AND they're actually getting focus on Aether.

To be fair Ash only seemed mature in the XY series, he's the same character he was in DP. And a bit like his BW counterpart albeit with out the stupidity of forgetting things. People assumed Ash was more mature because of how both Clemont and Serena looked up to him, and often put him on a pedestal. The design of his outfit also helped since it was a tight fighting blue jacket that made him look taller than he was in previous sagas, when in reality he's still shorter than his female companion.

And reality check to all those XY fan's the saga's "DARK" tone, only materialized in the literal back end of XY not the majority (Only foreshadowed in episode 92 & 93 with the prophecy of the hero of Kalos, and Mega evolution special IV). With the rest of the show before that being standard pokemon fair.

We'll never get the old animation style back, that's counterintuitive. Why would they return to an clearly obsolete way of animation and design... We could see a hybrid between the old style and the SM style however, kinda how the Ash in M20 is drawn.

While I do think the last few episodes have not been that great (going by just the dub) there have been a few really good episodes and I like some of the humorous moments in SM. The art style doesn't bother me too much other than Ash and Team Rocket's designs.

Can people stop trashing on the art style, jesus fucking christ.

And Pokemon is literally always has been and always will be. Just because it's more """childish"" looking doesn't make it any less for kids than it already was.

Jesus Christ.

Mezzo said:

Can people stop trashing on the art style, jesus psyducking christ.

And Pokemon is literally always has been and always will be. Just because it's more """childish"" looking doesn't make it any less for kids than it already was.

Jesus Christ.

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I dont think the whole art style is the issue. It's mostly pertaining to Ash alone imo. All the other characters actually fit it quite well. Hell, even in the Kanto flashback, that Ash looked better than the current one which kinda bega the question what the issue is. Maybe it's clothing? Not too sure.