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Offensive and Defensive combo's and Lures and all that good stuff.

Dark Azelf

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    Ive said this in so many rate my team threads now its kind of annoying, and that would be this;

    "How does this team function, how do you plan to open up sweeps, where is the synergy ?"

    So i thought id bring this up here to hopefully serve as a reference point and a discussion threat to hopefully have me stop saying that so much.

    Synergy. Most battlers dont even know what this is actually, let me make this clear you cannot win matches in any tier or generation by slapping 6 random pokemon together and calling it a day. They MUST be able to work together. If you are losing battles, then this topic will probably help you.

    Legacy Raider said:
    While it is true that having a strong and balanced defensive core is essential for most teams' success, it is also true that without the right combinations of offensive pokemon you will have a very hard time sweeping teams. Making an effective team is not just about slapping a couple of random sweepers together and calling it a day. You really need to think about the strengths and weaknesses of each individual member, and more importantly, about how they work together as an effective and cohesive fighting unit.

    The same thing can be said defensively too, - the sweeping part and + walling. =P


    Here are some example combinations.

    Offensive. Lures are often the crux of offensive combo's.

    me said:
    → Lures
    A lure is basically a Pokémon that preys on what your opponent expects but does something different to catch them off guard, just as the name says to "lure" them in. What would normally be a great switch in turns into an awful one. Lures are often used on offensive teams to remove threats for other Pokémon on the team to possibly open up a sweep. An example of a lure would be an offensive Suicune with Calm Mind/Surf/Hidden power Electric/Ice Beam with a Life Orb. Normal switch ins to Suicune are often things like Zapdos, Gyarados, Celebi, Vaporeon etc. expecting a defensive normally less offensively threatening set and this Suicune can potentially OHKO all of them. For example if you lure in Zapdos with this set and OHKO it with a Calm Mind Life Orb'd Ice Beam then your Scizor will have a much easier time posing a threat to the opponents team with its primary counter out of the way. Another example of a lure would be a Toxic and Substitute Heatran to "lure" in its normal counters of bulky waters
    to cripple them from behind a Substitute with Toxic. For example once a Vaporeon is poisoned things like Gyarados are free to rampage alot easier with its counter crippled.

    Code:
    Gyarados@Choice Band
    72 HP / 252 ATT / 184 Speed
    Adamant Nature
    - Aqua Tail
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Payback / Ice Fang
    
    [B][SIZE="5"]+[/SIZE][/B]
    
    Lucario@Life Orb
    252 ATT / 252 SPEED / 6 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Extremespeed
    - Crunch

    CB Gyarados wears down nearly all of Lucario's checks and counters. Decimating the Rotoms, Zapdos, Celebi, amongst various others thus allowing Lucario to clean up well. CB Gyarados is also a very underrated threat capable of 2hkoing Skarmory too with Aqua Tail.

    Code:
    Lucario@Choice Specs / Life Orb
    252 SP.ATT / 252 SPEED / 6 DEF
    Modest Nature
    - Aura Sphere
    - Shadow Ball
    - Vacuum Wave
    - Hidden Power [Rock/Ice]
    
    [B][SIZE="5"]
    +[/SIZE][/B]
    
    Scizor@Life Orb
    32 HP / 252 ATT / 224 SPEED
    Adamant Nature
    Trait : Technician
    - Swords Dance
    - Bullet Punch
    - SuperPower
    - Bug Bite / Roost

    The element of surprise here. Special Lucario annihilates its checks which it shares with Scizor , Rotoms, Zapdos, Gyarados, Gliscor all fall prey to this set. Ive always advised when you use special Lucario to "just shadow ball or hidden power on the predicted switch and something WILL go down". Decimating these counters it gives Scizor some breathing room.


    Defensive

    Code:
    Skarmory@Leftovers / Shed Shell
    252 HP / 16 Att / 200 Def / 16 Speed / 26 S.Def
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Whirlwind
    - Roost
    - Brave Bird
    
    [B][SIZE="5"]+
    [/SIZE][/B]
    Blissey@Leftovers
    252 Def / 176 S.Def / 80 S.Att
    Calm Nature
    Trait : Natural Cure
    - Toxic / Thunderwave
    - Seismic Toss / Stealth Rock
    - Flamethrower / Stealth Rock
    - Softboiled


    Skarmory and Blissey. In the past these two were used for flat out walling, now they have had to re-invent themselves and i feel they are more about residual damage these days. Either way, Skarmory walls physical attackers and Blissey takes special hits.


    Code:
    Celebi@leftovers
    252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Speed
    Bold Nature
    - Grass Knot
    - Recover
    - Leech Seed / Reflect / Thunderwave / Stealth Rock
    - Hidden Power [Ice/Fire] / Reflect / Thunderwave / Stealth Rock
    
    [B][SIZE="5"]
    +[/SIZE][/B]
    
    Heatran@Leftovers 
    Modest Nature
    248 HP / 56 SpA / 204 SpD 
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Lava Plume
    - Earth Power


    The CeleTran combo, these guys resist pretty much each other weaknesses and just provide great team support and wall both side of the spectrum similarly to SkarmBliss.

    What offensive and defensive combinations do you have ? Please no silly posts or your post will be deleted, i hope to get a decent discussion from this thread.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
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    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+ Spe / - Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Toxic
    - Substitute

    +

    Manaphy @ Leftovers
    Ability: Hydration
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spe
    Bold Nature (+ Def / - Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Surf
    - Rain Dance
    - Rest

    Heatran lures in Vaporeon, Latias, and the like, setting up a Manaphy sweep. I used this during suspect, and it performed really well (despite rain + Fire attacks possibly being a bad idea). Not the best of combos, but this was the only one I could think of at the time and you wanted me to post lol.

    (But by the way, Tyranitar + Garchomp is the best combos of all time!)
     

    Skip Shot

    I'm back. I think.
    1,196
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  • Code:
    Gyarados@Choice Band
    72 HP / 252 ATT / 184 Speed
    Adamant Nature
    - Aqua Tail
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Payback / Ice Fang
    
    [B][SIZE=5]+[/SIZE][/B]
    
    Lucario@Life Orb
    252 ATT / 252 SPEED / 6 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Extremespeed
    - Crunch
    CB Gyarados wears down nearly all of Lucario's checks and counters. Decimating the Rotoms, Zapdos, Celebi, amongst various others thus allowing Lucario to clean up well. CB Gyarados is also a very underrated threat capable of 2hkoing Skarmory too with Aqua Tail.

    I use a similar offensive combination, except that I run Bulky DD Gyara with Bounce instead of the CB variant. Would CB Gyara be a much better option than Bulky DD in this case?
     

    Ooka

    [font=Maven Pro][color=#A75EE2]Cosmic[/color][/fon
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  • Most likely because if you're luring there would be no point in setting up. So hit hard, then run and set up with Lucario? Just a guess. Or possibly because using Dragon Dance and seeing ScarfRotom leaves you nothing to switch to, however, if the same Rotom switched into CB Waterfall, well, ya know.
     

    Anti

    return of the king
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  • I don't really see the CB Gyarados + SDLuke combination working. First of all, CB Gyarados isn't very good. It's slow, it dies quickly (similar to our friend Salamence), and has an unreliable STAB attack (if you run Aqua Tail). Next up, I have no doubts it lures Rotom pretty well. I must say though that things like Gliscor, Zapdos, Salamence, Gengar, ScarfTran, etc. don't have any business switching into Gyarados in the first place so I don't know why they would be lured by it. Meanwhile, they can all at the very least check SDLuke. Of course, I've never used the combo (though I have used CB Gyarados), but I don't see why anyone would say "hey, let's bring Gliscor in on Gyarados" or anything like that.

    That said, combos are obviously important. The one I usually used is LO Gengar + Superachi. It doesn't cover everything (like Heatran, Magnezone, and faster annoying crap that can do a lot of damage to Jirachi), but in general it does the job. I'm also somewhat surprised that Magnezone + any Dragon has not been mentioned since it's a pretty good combo. Like all combos it has its issues, but usually it will do good damage.
     
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    Swords Dance Lucario + Choice Scarf Tyranitar

    Amazing combination, Tyranitar Pursuits the likes of Rotom-a, Latias, and even Gengar (who always stays in, expecting to be faster) and can nab surprise kills on Gyarados and Salamence. Tyanitar also stops Heatran cold, and can weaken or kill Zapdos, Celebi, Gliscor, etc...Tyranitar can also Pursuit Scarf Jirachi locked in Fire Punch or Trick, whereas Lucario can take Iron Head due to Inner Focus. Life Orb Latias makes this almost foolproof. Has issues with Scizor and Metagross though =(
     
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  • I can agree with both Gyarados & SDLuke (although I've only tried it with DDGyara, I tend to avoid gimmicky sets) and SDLuke & ScarfTar. ScarfTar tends to work well with Scizor, as well.

    I hate pre-planned baiting. If two pokemon are both viable in a team and happen to cover each others asses, then that's great. But putting in one gimmick pokemon purely to bait another's counters, it can get a little redundant. It's an exaggeration, but using SpecGyara to bait out counters is the sort of thing I'm refering to.
     

    Ooka

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  • Well, I never really realized they were a combo or anything, but I always like using Salamence with Magnezone. Don't exactly know what all it gets in, but I enjoy going to Magnezone when Scizor is Bullet Punching or Jirachi is Ice Punching.
     

    .Gamer

    »»───knee─►
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  • Helpful stuff, hopefully (not likely) my teams will have less suck.
     

    JOSHIKINZ_94

    The crusader
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    • Seen Dec 26, 2010
    i have a combo of an offencive duo, mainly to reveng kill opponents weakened and/or weak to said pokemons moves.here they are:

    magnezone@ leftovers/life orb
    modest : 252 sp.atk 252 spd 6 hp
    ability- magnet pull
    discharge
    hiddenpower(grass)
    substitute
    flash cannon

    and

    dugtrio @ focus sash/leftovers/life orb
    ability- arena trap
    jolly/adamant: 252 spd 252 atk 6hp
    sucker punch
    earthquake
    stone edge/rock slide
    aerial ace

    what i have selected her could be two very good revenge killer duo in my opinion. send out magnezone out into a steel type that is forced to stay in because of magnet pull and set up a substitute or hit them with discharge. if this steel type has another type(which most of them will) you hit them with a hidden power grass and watch them lose most/all their hp(especially gound types who beleive your dead if they land an eathquake on you) . if youve set up a substitute, then you have some breathing space for the next pokemon they'll throw at you which would most likely be an electivire (begging you to activate its motor drive if it has'nt switched into a stabbed discharge already), which is where dugtrio comes in. providing you have jolly nature, it allows you to outrun any +speed natured poke with baes 115 speed,at the cost of the power adamant brings your attacks.

    so back to electivire, it doesnt suspect that switch in and uses earthquake(to kill magnezone). not effective, dugtrio has arena trap, keeps a very unhappy electivire in play and KO's it with a stabbed earthquake. thats all for now, i know that the scenario ive picked isint the only one, but its an experience i had and would like to share:)
     

    Dark Azelf

    ☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
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    Code:
    Metagross @ Life Orb
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 112 HP/252 Atk/12 Def/132 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Agility
    - Earthquake
    - Explosion
    - Meteor Mash
    
    [SIZE="5"][B]+[/B][/SIZE]
    
    Tyranitar@Babiri Berry
    252 Atk / 252 Spd/6 HP
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Crunch
    - Fire Punch
    - Stone Edge

    Agiligross + Babiri tar nail most of each others counters and checks. Think things like Swampert, Gliscor etc.

    Code:
    Skarmory@Leftovers / Shed Shell
    252 HP / 16 Att / 200 Def / 16 Speed / 26 S.Def
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Roost
    - Brave Bird
    
    [B][SIZE="5"]+[/SIZE][/B]
    
    Tyranitar@Choice Scarf
    252 ATT / 252 SPEED / 6 S.Att
    Jolly / Hasty Nature
    - Pursuit
    - Fire Blast / SuperPower
    - Crunch
    - Stone Edge

    Here is a cool combo for semi stall. Use Taunt on the switch in with Skarm, hopefully lure something like Rotom or another special attacker and send in Tar and Pursuit them.
     
    Last edited:

    Alternative

    f i r e f l y .
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  • Anyway, I will be using this thread in the future.
    Me thinks the most common combo is the infamous CeleTran combo.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    Skip Shot

    I'm back. I think.
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  • Code:
    Infernape @ Life Orb
    Naive Nature- Blaze
    40 Spa/ 252 Spe/ 216 Atk (really you can tweak Ape's EVs to your choosing though)
    
    Close Combat
    Overheat
    Mach Punch 
    Stone Edge
    
    
    AND
    
    Salamence @ Life Orb
    Rash Nature- Intimidate
    252 Spa/ 216 Spe/ 40 Atk
    
    Draco Meteor
    Fire Blast
    Outrage
    Roost/Earthquake

    This mixed sweeping pair is great because Infernape destroys Steels in Mence's way and Mence will place huge dents in bulky waters that stand in the way of Ape. Also Ape makes up for the lack of physical offense that Mence has, while Mence makes up for Infernape's lack of special offense. Really only trouble this combo has imo is bulky waters and possibly Gengar, which is why I usually run a LO/Specs Jolt alongside it.
     

    Dark Azelf

    ☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
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    @ Anti; never said Gliscor swiches into CB Gyara lol. Its a core meaning you have 4 other slots to deal with/lure Gliscor. Remember combo's arent always always about offensive, its also about defensive. Gyarados covers Lucario's weaks and Lucario can switch in on Stone Edged aimed at Gyara so its nice in that department too. Honestly though CB Gyara is pretty decent, i know you dislike it though lol


    Code:
    Infernape @ Life Orb
    Naive Nature- Blaze
    40 Spa/ 252 Spe/ 216 Atk (really you can tweak Ape's EVs to your choosing though)
    
    Close Combat
    Overheat
    Mach Punch 
    Stone Edge
    
    
    AND
    
    Salamence @ Life Orb
    Rash Nature- Intimidate
    252 Spa/ 216 Spe/ 40 Atk
    
    Draco Meteor
    Fire Blast
    Outrage
    Roost/Earthquake

    This mixed sweeping pair is great because Infernape destroys Steels in Mence's way and Mence will place huge dents in bulky waters that stand in the way of Ape. Also Ape makes up for the lack of physical offense that Mence has, while Mence makes up for Infernape's lack of special offense. Really only trouble this combo has imo is bulky waters and possibly Gengar, which is why I usually run a LO/Specs Jolt alongside it.

    I dont see how this lures or opens up sweeps for anything tbh when they have totally different counters and checks and can just you know, switch lol.

    Kinda reminds me (not directed towards you) of when people use Mixape + MixMence on the same team and think they are safe from stall and then end up wondering why they get dominated by it lol. Kinda amusing really.

    Anyways;

    Code:
    Suicune@Life Orb
    252 SP.ATT / 252 SPEED / 6 HP (Bulky ev spread with lefties is optional)
    Modest / Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Ice Beam
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    
    [B][SIZE="5"]+[/SIZE][/B]
    
    Gyarados@Life Orb
    252 ATT / 252 SPEED / 6 DEF
    Adamant / Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall / Aqua Tail
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake / Bounce / Ice Fang


    Another cool combo here. Basically Suicune shares several counters and checks with Gyarados. Celebi, other waters, Zapdos, Latias (to some extent) and even Rotom are prone to switch into Suicune for some reason and get decimated by LO +1 hits which allows you to clean up with Gyara. Also people are really offensive cune weak these days its kinda shocking, mainly mediocre semi-stall (who also lose to Starmie and Manaphy buts thats another story lol, no im not weak to them so dont bother bringing your Cune/Star or Mana haha). Wanna see an example team that is weak to such a strategy ? http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65476 <--proves my point. ;D
     
    Last edited:
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    @ Skip Shot

    I know you think anything Magmortified, Plus, Beej, etc...uses is automatically good, but that is a bad combination, if only because Latias completely laughs at it. Use U-turn > Overheat to at least lure it and you'll have a semi-decent combo.

    Another awesome combination:

    Rotom @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 42 SDef
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Discharge
    - Will O Wisp
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    +


    Steelix @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spe)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Gyro Ball
    - Roar

    Together, they wall a good portion of the metagame physically, really only fearing stuff like Arcanine or Blaziken. Couple these guys up with a special wall, and you have yourself a mean defensive core.
     

    Skip Shot

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  • @ Skip Shot

    I know you think anything Magmortified, Plus, Beej, etc...uses is automatically good, but that is a bad combination, if only because Latias completely laughs at it. Use U-turn > Overheat to at least lure it and you'll have a semi-decent combo.

    Not rlly, it's just that I tried that combo out on an offensive team (you might remember it, its this one) and it worked extremely well in OU for me. Probably because of the overwhelming support though since Yanmega pretty much killed lots of junk in the start of the battle unless Hypnosis/whatever missed.

    I'll look at U-Turn.


    Rotom @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 42 SDef
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Discharge
    - Will O Wisp
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    +


    Steelix @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spe)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Gyro Ball
    - Roar

    Together, they wall a good portion of the metagame physically, really only fearing stuff like Arcanine or Blaziken. Couple these guys up with a special wall, and you have yourself a mean defensive core.

    I can see this working really well with an Azumarill that can take care of Arcanine and Blaziken with Aqua Jet/Waterfall. Looks pretty solid.
     

    Dark Azelf

    ☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
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    Code:
    Heatran @ Life Orb
    Naive Nature
    4 Atk / 252 S.Atk/252 Speed
    - Explosion
    - Fire Blast / Magma Storm
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Earth Power
    
    [SIZE="5"][B]+[/B][/SIZE]
    
    Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
    12 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA / 232 Spe 
    Modest Nature
    - Agility
    - Substitute
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    
    [SIZE="5"][B]And / OR[/B][/SIZE]
    
    Gyarados@Life Orb
    252 Att / 252 Speed / 6 Def
    Adamant / Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Aqua Tail / Waterfall
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake / Bounce / Ice Fang

    This combo is one of the more successful ones ive tried, even more so so entry hazards up like Toxic Spikes (HP Grass 2HKO's EVERY bulky water in the game with SR up IIRC). Basically Heatran lures in Blissey/Snorlax and bulky waters and then Empleon or Gyarados can sweep. Having a Pursuit user is also fantastic for this combo as it stops Latias walling Heatran and CMing on Emploeon. Magma Storm is mentioned due to its trapping ability. ^^

    Gyarados is also of benefit defensively as it covers Heatrans and Empoleons main weaknesses VERY well. You might even wanna try a version of BulkyDos or CBDos if you like that sort of stuff too lol.

    Heatran also works works with an Expert Belt/Shuca Berry to bluff a choice item so Blissey wont protect on your Explosion. Losing 10% power hurts though so i hesitate to mention that.


    EDIT :

    UU

    Code:
    Houndoom@Life Orb
    Lonely Nature
    252 Atk / 76 SpA / 180 Spe 
    Trait : Flash Fire
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Thunderfang
    - Overheat
    
    [SIZE="3"][SIZE="5"]+[/SIZE][/SIZE]
    
    Porygon-z@life Orb
    252 Sp.att / 252 Speed 6 HP
    Timid Nature
    Trait : Adaptability
    - Nasty Plot
    - Tri Attack
    - Dark Pulse
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    Houndoom lures in Chansey 2hkoing with SR up with Crunch and Houndoom can Pursuit ghosts i.e scarf Rotom and things which stop P-Z from sweeping. Even Spirotomb is at risk from being worn down from Pursuit as it commonly cant even touch Houndoom.

    If Chansey gets hit by a Crunch (48% MIN) and then tries to switch into P-Z she is looking at taking 50.9% - 59.9% from a +2 LO Adaptability Tri Attack. Which with SR up seals her fate.
     
    Last edited:

    Skip Shot

    I'm back. I think.
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  • UU

    Code:
    Houndoom@Life Orb
    Lonely Nature
    252 Atk / 76 SpA / 180 Spe 
    Trait : Flash Fire
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Thunderfang
    - Overheat
    
    [SIZE=3][SIZE=5]+[/SIZE][/SIZE]
    
    Porygon-z@life Orb
    252 Sp.att / 252 Speed 6 HP
    Timid Nature
    Trait : Adaptability
    - Nasty Plot
    - Tri Attack
    - Dark Pulse
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    Houndoom lures in Chansey 2hkoing with SR up with Crunch and Houndoom can Pursuit ghosts i.e scarf Rotom and things which stop P-Z from sweeping. Even Spirotomb is at risk from being worn down from Pursuit as it commonly cant even touch Houndoom.

    If Chansey gets hit by a Crunch (48% MIN) and then tries to switch into P-Z she is looking at taking 50.9% - 59.9% from a +2 LO Adaptability Tri Attack. Which with SR up seals her fate.

    Wouldn't you want to run Sucker Punch somewhere on Houndoom? Both Doom and P-Z really hate Zam's Focus Blast, and Zam easily outspeeds both of them, so it destroys the combo via revenge killing.
     

    Dark Azelf

    ☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
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    Wouldn't you want to run Sucker Punch somewhere on Houndoom? Both Doom and P-Z really hate Zam's Focus Blast, and Zam easily outspeeds both of them, so it destroys the combo via revenge killing.

    "That is why you have 4 other slots on your team"

    Sucker Punch is kinda lol on doom as it defeats the point of the combo which would be lure out special walls.
     
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    LOTran + DDGyara is probably the most succesful offensive combination I have used so good for pointing that out
     
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