The existence of God

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KorpiklaaniVodka

KorpiklaaniVodka

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    Warning: this subject is extremely sensitive and complex. If you lack logical skills it's better to stay away from it.

    Since 2014, I was convinced to become an agnostic after reading multiple sites, observing the actions of Romanian local priests (experts in corruption) and thinking more about it. Prior to that I was pretty much a narrow Christian which loved reading the Bible and whatnot.

    Now I'm not sure if there is a creator or not, because man has not yet acquired the scientific means to determine this, but I'm convinced that religion, and especially Christianity is pretty much false, and was created by man to control the masses, to brainwash people and ultimately establish a herd instinct.

    What do you think?
     
    Im a Christian, but Im not exactly a theologian, so I dont know all of the answers to contradictions and stuff, but so far, I found simple google searches seem to rectify them...

    About the science and stuff, I am not super well-versed, so I can't exactly defend my position well. Im sort of losing the faith unfortunately, so Im heading towards a deistic route. I think its ignorant to claim a god or gods is impossible to exist, but also ignorant to claim one exists without looking into it more, which is why I respect people that are either atheists that have thought things through, or christians/other religion that have though things through and researched.

    Tbh, I dont think the bible is meant to be a control tool, although I think it could be manipulated to be used as one, like anything else.
     
    As a Christian, I don't think "brainwashing" is a fair term to use. At the end of the day, you still have to make a choice.
     
    For me there is no comfort that there is "a big guy in the sky" making our decisions and life choices.

    However, I find no problems with other people doing so. In fact if it brings comfort, enlightenment and order to themselves than so be it. I know lives changed through finding God, and through deciding to not believe.

    But if people are using it to fool people, take their money for ludicrous promises on what God can "cure" and discriminate against anyone who doesn't believe in God that to me that's not practising what the Bible tries to teach.

    With mentioning the Bible to me the interpretation is metaphorically in some of the aspects, so that it could relate to different society classes.
     
    I identify myself as an antitheist. Critical thinking has been an invaluable part of my life and has allowed me to grow in cognizance. I come from a moderately Christian family in a moderately Christian culture, so it was not a breeze to relinquish those bindings or to declare myself as a dissenter to my parents.

    But I am glad I did, when I did. I live my life without the promise of paradise, which makes it that much sweeter.
     
    I'm an Agnostic Atheist. I dont believe there is a god, however I dont think there's a way to prove it either way.

    That said, religion is complete bullshit. You can't prove whether or not there is a god, but that's a different topic than religion. Religion =/= God. There are so many inconsistencies in religion that I don't even wanna get started on it.
     
    There's no way to prove whether there's a god or not. However, I like to say that it's highly unlikely that there's an intelligent being that is on such a high level of existence that it's aware of itself while also being able to create complicated concepts like maths and physics, let alone living beings.
     
    My thoughts on God have vacillated over my 25 years on this planet. I was borderline militant in my atheism from my teen years until about last year. I still think organized religion of any kind is in some form delusional, but I can't help but catch myself thinking more in depth about the idea of a creator; a higher power.
     
    Wicked3DS said:
    As a Christian, I don't think "brainwashing" is a fair term to use. At the end of the day, you still have to make a choice.
    Click to expand...

    I definitely agree with this. However, the Roman Catholic church did use its influential power during medieval times to manipulate illiterate peasants, so that is a somewhat valid point, but it doesn't apply to Christianity today.
     
    The idea behind the 'brainwashing' part is that most people are indoctrinated at a young age. I mean, if we were all just allowed to make our own choices, wouldn't there be more of everything instead of Christianity being the majority?

    Christianity is the majority because a lot of people are Christian, and then they pass it on to their kids, who are taught to be Christian at a young age, who then grow and do the same with their kids. Some break away into other religions or become Atheists, but for the most part people tend to stick with what they were taught as a kid.

    In some sort of way, you are stuck believing what you were taught as a kid unless you break out of it. For example, if you were born in the Middle East, you'd likely be a Muslim right now.

    So that's where the 'brainwashing' part comes from, not from convincing a full grown adult to join your religion. Hopefully that clears some stuff up.
     
    Marugi said:
    I definitely agree with this. However, the Roman Catholic church did use its influential power during medieval times to manipulate illiterate peasants, so that is a somewhat valid point, but it doesn't apply to Christianity today.
    Click to expand...

    Dont forget the Catholic church also banned the Bible later as well so the the common person couldn't interpret for him/herself to control them. This hints that the Bible isn't the tool for controlling the masses, but the opposite.
     
    I used to be really militant as some others in this thread as well. However, I have calmed down from that as I have aged. My disbelief in a god doesn't really stem from religious corruption but rather an apathy towards it. I do not think one exists and should it exist I do not think even then that I would follow it.

    However, if we are to talk about religion, that is another issue. It's a hit and miss. I do believe all people that are religious are those that cannot find the strength in themselves to do things without feeling like someone is guiding them, and it comforts them. That's a good thing.

    However, there's some very archaic things about it as well. The most prominent examples today are countries with Islam as the dominant religion in which women are treated as second class citizens and not identifying as a follower or denouncing the religion could get you killed. When I think about things like that, it leaves a very foul taste in my mouth. This also applies to religious corruption in European and Western countries where people are scammed out of their money so religious officials can get rich as they please knowing these people will believe anything they say.

    So, I think of religion as more bad than good, but that little good that it does bring does make me feel as if it is necessary for some people.

    (sorry for the ramble i tried to not sound too stupid lol just kinda riffed the whole thing)
     
    I'm am an atheist, and non-religious. Even though I was raised within a religious family, I had always disliked the whole idea of it. None of it was ever logical, and everything from the bible simply couldn't be taken seriously. The existence of a god just doesn't make sense.

    My own opinion on religion and theism is that some time in the past, during the dawn of civilization, someone asked a question about the origins of life. No one had an answer, obviously, so they made stuff up. Different cultures started making up different ideas, and eventually there came to be the hundreds of religions that have existed throughout history.

    At this point, anyone from any religion could say the rest are wrong. And that happens a lot. With so many mixed ideas, so many different cultures based on so many different religions, it's easy for me to say that they are all probably wrong.

    I'm not saying that having a religion is bad, though. If it helps you, then that's most definitely a good thing. And I'm not going to try to change your mind. This is simply the way I feel about it, that's all.
     
    KorpiklaaniVodka said:
    Warning: this subject is extremely sensitive and complex. If you lack logical skills it's better to stay away from it.

    Since 2014, I was convinced to become an agnostic after reading multiple sites, observing the actions of Romanian local priests (experts in corruption) and thinking more about it. Prior to that I was pretty much a narrow Christian which loved reading the Bible and whatnot.

    Now I'm not sure if there is a creator or not, because man has not yet acquired the scientific means to determine this, but I'm convinced that religion, and especially Christianity is pretty much false, and was created by man to control the masses, to brainwash people and ultimately establish a herd instinct.

    What do you think?
    Click to expand...

    One should make a distinction between Roman Catholicism and Christianity, first of all. The Roman Catholics do and believe a lot of things that aren't actually in line with the Bible, including but not limited to using the Apocrypha, venerating Mary, and using good deeds as a way to get into heaven.

    However, where science fails, one should look to logic. Without a God, there's no real reason for logic, morality, or the laws of nature (such as dogs giving birth to dogs instead of deer). If atheism is correct, then there's no ultimate purpose to our lives at all. We may as well just do what makes ourselves happy, even if that means hurting others. There's no point to our lives because they aren't eternal. Once you die, that's it. You stop caring about everything because you aren't there to care. Leaving a legacy doesn't matter because everything fades with time, including memory. Basically, everything is vanity.

    But if there is a God, that begs the question of "which one," so let's explore that. In order to properly explain the existence of logic, morality, and the laws of nature, whatever God or gods must be absolutely perfect in every way. Logic, for example, is mere opinion if it isn't perfectly objective, regardless of mankind's interpretations. Morality is the same.

    There are some religions we can immediately dismiss this way, such as atheism, Shinto (gods are fallible, enough said), and Hinduism (they believe this reality's an illusion). Others require a closer look. Islam can be dismissed, for example, because it simultaneously claims that its god Allah is impossible for us to know and ascribes 99 names to him so that he can be known. It also simultaneously claims that monogamy is how marriage should be, yet Allah told Muhammad to take his brother's wives. In other words, Allah contradicts himself, and therefore shouldn't be acknowledged as God.

    When you examine every religion closely like this, you find that Christianity is the only one that holds any weight at all, and the rest refute themselves by simple logic. 2 Timothy 2:13 reads, "If we're faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." Neither can truth; either something is true or it is not true. Any mathematician can tell you that. If the universe is really a result of chance alone, things like reason, love, and morality are impossible to explain.

    We can certainly confirm the Bible's accuracy, however. Daniel prophesied four empires and Alexander the Great, for example, in Daniel 7, 8, and 11. In Ezekiel 26, Ezekiel prophesied Tyre's destruction. In addition to fulfilled prophecies, there are scientific proofs of what the Bible says happened in history. For example, the global flood of Noah's time would predictably bury and kill animals, people, and more before it finally drained. We find fossils underground today. Sure, you could claim that they're millions or billions of years old rather than mere thousands, but the same dating methods used to reach such conclusions date a fossilized piece of tree bark from Mt. St. Helen's eruption to about millions of years ago as well, when it clearly wasn't a fossil for more than four decades. I'd be more inclined to believe the Bible than such faulty dating methods.

    And, of course, one of the biggest reasons Christianity is correct is the fact that there are historical documents both in the Bible and not that confirm the Bible's story: there was a man called Jesus Christ who suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, was buried, and was seen alive again three days later before ascending to heaven. The way Christ lived here left us only three options in regard to what we think of Him: either He's truly the Son of God, He's a demon or possessed by one, or He's absolutely insane.

    Here's the thing, though. Proving that God exists isn't enough. Even demons believe He exists, and that fact makes them tremble in fear (James 2:19). It doesn't matter if you believe there's a God if you don't put your trust in Him. Even if you still don't think there's a God, it's simply safer to change that belief and pray. Pascal's famous wager states that if there really is no God, then it makes no difference whether you believe there is. If God does exist, however, then your belief makes all the difference.

    Is that a chance you're willing to take?
     
    To put it simply, I do not see any reason to believe there is a God, or any form of deity.

    I was raised as a Christian, but at the end of the day, I can't say I really ever had that belief for myself. I never felt a thing while at church, I never felt the presence of a higher being. I had a 'belief', I suppose, but it was only propped up by trusting the people of my family and my church that they had access to knowledge/feelings that I did not.

    It was a long-drawn out process of how I even came to consciously acknowledge that, I will save that story for it isn't entirely on-topic. Nevertheless, I grew up finding out that I wasn't alone, that other people did not have these feelings/beliefs either... That they were not seeing it, just like me. Once officially outside of the Christian belief, I have been able to see things more clearly. As I said, I do not see any reason to believe in a deity. It's not to say that there absolutely isn't one, although I strongly question the idea of an intervening deity there isn't much I can say about the existence of the entity a deist would propose - except for one thing: The idea is irrelevant! The time to believe is when there is reason to believe. I do not see any. While we must keep an open-mind, it is not justified to really put too much thought into this claim, if you ask me... So I do not subscribe any belief to it.

    Lastly, on the subject of Christianity being created to brainwash the masses. From my studying (which isn't horribly extensive and has been a few years in the past, so don't take anything I say as gospel truth) Christianity (and its preceding religion, Judaism) was just a new way of understanding what people believed was the creator(s). A lot of aspects of the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) were straight-up rejections of the ideas of how the Mesopotamians saw their deities.

    Even if what I said above isn't as accurate as I hope it to be, to assume that Christianity was created to brainwash the masses just doesn't feel realistic. Throughout history, the churches that have formed from Christianity certainly have seized power, but I don't think we should automatically assume that the authors of the Pentateuch and the rest of the Bible were out to control people. I can't explain with the evidence we have why they thought that they could explain what God would order in books like Leviticus, but I can say one thing... It certainly wasn't the morality of an all-knowing God. It's hard for me to know what they might have been thinking, for I have never actually held a belief in God for myself.

    I am a strong anti-theist, but I do not want to see people jump to such hasty conclusions.
     
    Harmonie said:
    To put it simply, I do not see any reason to believe there is a God, or any form of deity.

    I was raised as a Christian, but at the end of the day, I can't say I really ever had that belief for myself. I never felt a thing while at church, I never felt the presence of a higher being. I had a 'belief', I suppose, but it was only propped up by trusting the people of my family and my church that they had access to knowledge/feelings that I did not.

    It was a long-drawn out process of how I even came to consciously acknowledge that, I will save that story for it isn't entirely on-topic. Nevertheless, I grew up finding out that I wasn't alone, that other people did not have these feelings/beliefs either... That they were not seeing it, just like me. Once officially outside of the Christian belief, I have been able to see things more clearly. As I said, I do not see any reason to believe in a deity. It's not to say that there absolutely isn't one, although I strongly question the idea of an intervening deity there isn't much I can say about the existence of the entity a deist would propose - except for one thing: The idea is irrelevant! The time to believe is when there is reason to believe. I do not see any. While we must keep an open-mind, it is not justified to really put too much thought into this claim, if you ask me... So I do not subscribe any belief to it.

    Lastly, on the subject of Christianity being created to brainwash the masses. From my studying (which isn't horribly extensive and has been a few years in the past, so don't take anything I say as gospel truth) Christianity (and its preceding religion, Judaism) was just a new way of understanding what people believed was the creator(s). A lot of aspects of the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) were straight-up rejections of the ideas of how the Mesopotamians saw their deities.

    Even if what I said above isn't as accurate as I hope it to be, to assume that Christianity was created to brainwash the masses just doesn't feel realistic. Throughout history, the churches that have formed from Christianity certainly have seized power, but I don't think we should automatically assume that the authors of the Pentateuch and the rest of the Bible were out to control people. I can't explain with the evidence we have why they thought that they could explain what God would order in books like Leviticus, but I can say one thing... It certainly wasn't the morality of an all-knowing God. It's hard for me to know what they might have been thinking, for I have never actually held a belief in God for myself.

    I am a strong anti-theist, but I do not want to see people jump to such hasty conclusions.
    Click to expand...

    I would just like to ask you one question, then. According to Christianity, God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, and human beings are (quite obviously) none of the above. Why, then, do you get to say that X "wasn't the morality of an all-knowing God"? Are you sure that you, a flawed human being like the rest of us, are in a position to tell God what's right or what's wrong?
     
    Gilles de Rais said:
    Without a God, there's no real reason for logic, morality, or the laws of nature (such as dogs giving birth to dogs instead of deer). If atheism is correct, then there's no ultimate purpose to our lives at all. We may as well just do what makes ourselves happy, even if that means hurting others. There's no point to our lives because they aren't eternal. Once you die, that's it. You stop caring about everything because you aren't there to care. Leaving a legacy doesn't matter because everything fades with time, including memory. Basically, everything is vanity.
    Click to expand...

    One of the problems with religion, or with the notion of a God, is exactly this. The notion of a grand design teaches that everything must have a point, which is simply not true. Something can exist simply because it exists, and for no other reason.

    What this poster also fails to realise is that their own logic can be extrapolated to the deity itself. If God doesn't have a God, what is his purpose? Did he create the universe and the Earth simply to give himself one? If God doesn't have a God, is that why he is so amoral that he can allow (or worse, facilitate) the kind of horrible things that happen to his own creations, who he so dearly loves yet feels the need to test for worthiness?

    Is this the point he has given to his own eternal life?

    On a separate note, I would dispute the point about a legacy. I submit that the need to leave a legacy is strengthened by the idea that our lives are not eternal. The larger the legacy, the longer we live.
     
    Gilles de Rais said:


    There are some religions we can immediately dismiss this way, such as atheism, Shinto (gods are fallible, enough said), and Hinduism (they believe this reality's an illusion).
    ----------------

    We can certainly confirm the Bible's accuracy, however. Daniel prophesied four empires and Alexander the Great, for example, in Daniel 7, 8, and 11. In Ezekiel 26, Ezekiel prophesied Tyre's destruction. In addition to fulfilled prophecies, there are scientific proofs of what the Bible says happened in history. For example, the global flood of Noah's time would predictably bury and kill animals, people, and more before it finally drained. We find fossils underground today. Sure, you could claim that they're millions or billions of years old rather than mere thousands, but the same dating methods used to reach such conclusions date a fossilized piece of tree bark from Mt. St. Helen's eruption to about millions of years ago as well, when it clearly wasn't a fossil for more than four decades. I'd be more inclined to believe the Bible than such faulty dating methods.

    ------------
    Here's the thing, though. Proving that God exists isn't enough. Even demons believe He exists, and that fact makes them tremble in fear (James 2:19). It doesn't matter if you believe there's a God if you don't put your trust in Him. Even if you still don't think there's a God, it's simply safer to change that belief and pray. Pascal's famous wager states that if there really is no God, then it makes no difference whether you believe there is. If God does exist, however, then your belief makes all the difference.

    Is that a chance you're willing to take?
    Click to expand...

    I just sorta cut out the stuff I wanted to inquire or say things about.

    Pertaining to the first, atheism is not a religion but a lack thereof.

    Second, may I ask if you believe in evolution or do you believe in creationism? (genuine question i'm pretty curious)

    Third, are you trying to incite a change in people's beliefs with the fear of being wrong for a God that is apparently all loving?

    I am not trying to insult but I just wanted to reply to your post in particular.
     
    Shining Raichu said:
    One of the problems with religion, or with the notion of a God, is exactly this. The notion of a grand design teaches that everything must have a point, which is simply not true. Something can exist simply because it exists, and for no other reason.

    What this poster also fails to realise is that their own logic can be extrapolated to the deity itself. If God doesn't have a God, what is his purpose? Did he create the universe and the Earth simply to give himself one? If God doesn't have a God, is that why he is so amoral that he can allow (or worse, facilitate) the kind of horrible things that happen to his own creations, who he so dearly loves yet feels the need to test for worthiness?

    Is this the point he has given to his own eternal life?

    On a separate note, I would dispute the point about a legacy. I submit that the need to leave a legacy is strengthened by the idea that our lives are not eternal. The larger the legacy, the longer we live.
    Click to expand...

    If a carpenter makes a chair, does the chair exist for the sake of existing? Of course not; its purpose is to give the carpenter or buyer a place to sit that's more comfortable than the ground. The universe is the same way, even if God "just felt like creating," in that the universe has a purpose.

    Charging God with amorality because of all the evil in the world, however, demonstrates a misunderstanding of why there's evil in the world. You are familiar with Adam and Eve, correct? Because of them and the serpent, sin and death came into creation. That's their fault, not God's, just as it's not the carpenter's fault if the aforementioned chair breaks because someone took a bat to its legs. And God didn't leave it at that, either; He sent Jesus Christ to pay the price for our ultimate error. In this way, the infamous problem of evil is addressed with total and absolute finality: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only, unique Son, that whomever believes in Him won't perish, but live for eternity. For God did not sent His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save it."

    So the problem is not, "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" It is, "Are you going to believe that God sent Christ to deal with the problem and put your trust in Him?"

    Bossvelt said:
    I just sorta cut out the stuff I wanted to inquire or say things about.

    Pertaining to the first, atheism is not a religion but a lack thereof.

    Second, may I ask if you believe in evolution or do you believe in creationism? (genuine question i'm pretty curious)

    Third, are you trying to incite a change in people's beliefs with the fear of being wrong for a God that is apparently all loving?

    I am not trying to insult but I just wanted to reply to your post in particular.
    Click to expand...

    That is actually incorrect. A religion is simply a philosophy regarding spiritual matters, how the universe came to be, why it is in the state it is in now, and so forth. Atheism claims that Darwin's theory of evolution is correct, there is no afterlife and no God, and we are the ultimate result of nothing more than random chance. Not only has all of this been debunked many times (and you can actually test this out for yourself), but I can think of no greater despair than to know that, no matter how amazing a person you are and no matter how great a legacy you leave, it won't matter because you are still a temporary thing. You do not live through your legacy, your memory does. Unless you can surpass the feats of the likes of Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar, you can probably expect your memory to last a century or two, but you yourself won't experience that (according to atheism), because you'll be dead. Gone. Kaput. Poof. Pushing up daisies. You'll be an ex-atheist.

    ...Sorry, I just love Monty Python.

    Anyway, it's really not up to me who becomes a Christian and who doesn't. It has to be one's own choice, or it means absolutely nothing. For this reason, it is literally impossible for Christianity to be "forced" on someone, even if the situation was similar to that of Muslims pointing guns at Christians' heads, demanding they convert. So, if people who read my posts convert out of fear, that's up to them. What I am trying to do is show how silly (I do not mean this as an insult, but as an observation) all other faiths, beliefs, and religions are from a philosophical standpoint.
     
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