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A follow-up on Dawson's originality thread.

4th Gen Matt

Pokemon Onyx Creator
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    About 2 months ago Dawson created a thread about originality which can be found here.

    Basically what he said was about how games today are lacking originality. He said that too many people were using Pokemon Essentials and Kyledove's Sinnoh tilesets. The thread died a few days short of saving it and I am making this thread because I think a lot more discussion can come from this topic.

    So here is the question. Does using Pokemon Essentials and Kyledove's tiles make a game bad?

    This is my take on it: I think it is completely wrong how he put all games that use those two things into a category and marked them as bad. There is more to games then just custom scripts and graphics. The storyline is a huge part of the game. Adding unique features is a huge part to the game. I am even making a few custom tiles, sprites, OW's, etc.

    So Dawson I have to say that I disagree with you. Just because most games that use those two things are bad doesn't mean you can stereotype every game like that.

    Your thoughts?
     

    I agree with your point completely.
    Using Essentials and Kyledove's tiles does not make the game bad. Those are the elements for the game.
    Its how the maker uses them to create a game that can hold its own with a gripping story.
    ​
     
    I find this pretty pointless. You see, everybody will have either of the 2 opinions, either they'll say that they lack originality or they'll say that they don't. I have an opinion as well.

    I have seen this place back when the only reputable games were those which had a good CBS, when those starter kits were still being made . . . Even then, these rants, these flames had slowly started to come, I remember a few people who insisted that the starter kits should not be just handed over to just anyone. After all there are no two opinions about the fact that even though the starter kits are useful, atleast for the n00bs, it just leaves them with nothing to be done.

    But anyway, this section is not like it was at one time, it has become full of rants and everything. And I have to aggree that both the experienced and the new people have a point themselves, but i request you people to stop this. If you are one of those who aggree, stop posting in this thread. Let Game Development actually house games and not rants.

    All the experienced people are not directly complaining against anyone here, they are just not happy with the monotonousness of the games now. Most n00bs can now just pick up stuff and most of the stuff is done for you . Nowhere do I believe they have a problem with the sole use of the starter kits as long as you have original ideas. You should develop games if you have an idea for the games, not just because you have to develop games to show off among friends.
     
    Last edited:
    The Starter Kit allows for more creativity, not less (as some believe). Why? Because the number of people with ideas is greater than the number of people with ideas and who can program. The Starter Kit allows people with less knowledge of how to actually write a game to give form to their ideas. Okay, so they may all look a bit samey, what with there being only one style of battle screen and such to work with, but no one complains about that with hacks. And really, the look of the menus is only one small facet of the game - there's story and characterisation and so forth to think about.

    The Starter Kit also allows for more customisation. For people who want to change things around and redraw the menus and all that, it's a base to work from. That makes things a lot easier than making the whole game from scratch. And I'd like to think that, because it's easier to adapt the Starter Kit, more people would have a go at doing so (even just making superficial changes). This results in a bigger variety of styles.

    As for Kyledove's tilesets, they're great. I like the style. The only problem, though, is that, as I understand it, they're not the most varied set of tiles in the world. There's only so many looks you can achieve with a limited number of tiles. Creating more tiles for yourself is the way to go, even if they're just in the same style as opposed to your own style.

    Because of the limited range of tiles, the overall appearance of maps can start to look the same, but that doesn't make them unoriginal.

    "Unoriginal" would be direct remakes of the existing games without changing anything. So long as you're making your own game, it's original, even if it follows the same basic plot as the real games (or the "X legendary wants you to go on a quest for it" story). There are other problems, of course (repetitive story, boring story, poor mapping/grammar skills, unrealistic promises, etc. etc.), but none of that is to do with originality (so long as it's not just an attempt to be derivative).
     
    Listen the fact of the matter is this- it aint a fact that it's unoriginal using either the starter kit or kyledoves tiles- both of which are a blessing to this section of the community. What dawson was really saying in a nice way was most developers here suck. By that I mean, there is nothing wrong with them as people, but as game developers they have no clue what they are doing.
    The starter kit while helpful was a double edged sword. It gave rise of these clones for games. Because there members don't know how to develop none of the games stick out and it's these reason why games like Odyssey and Protectors and even RMXP games like Wichu's, Omegas and PokemonIO games stick out- is that we know how to develop a game. Even HOF's game is good because it feels like a game rather then some idea that was just come up with.
    We have interesting gameplay aspects and a nice overall look to the graphics (look at the overall look to wichu's and PokemonIO's games).

    I laugh at some of the members posts here a lot lately. Most of you have some really neat ideas, but are clueless on how to make a actual game. There is no gameplay behind your tacked on features.

    So to some up.
    The starter kit and kyledoves tiles aren't unoriginal- YOU ARE!
     
    I posted a similar post in the old thread.
    I agree with neo-dragon.
    The starter kit does not cause unoriginality.
    The fact that most people who started before a starter kit gave up before the scripts were done.
    There is no script making phase of a game anymore so every game makes it to the making phase.
    I think there should be more comments in the plot and story section.
    I have posted a story in that section and all the comments are about the maps.
    The section is for story comments.
    There is a map rating thread for maps.
    I do feel however that a game should have a original feature before the game is posted.
     
    Neo-Dragon said:
    The starter kit and kyledoves tiles aren't unoriginal- YOU ARE!
    Click to expand...

    That wraps it up in a nutshell. It is just that everyone that uses those two things are being stereotyped as another noob who has no clue what he is doing. I am almost completely proficient in RMXP and with Pokemon Essentials and I do not think it is right to be stereotyped. Rate games on how the user develops them, not what is used to develop them is how I would sum it up, I suppose.

    DrCoolSanta said:
    But anyway, this section is not like it was at one time, it has become full of rants and everything. And I have to aggree that both the experienced and the new people have a point themselves, but i request you people to stop this. If you are one of those who aggree, stop posting in this thread. Let Game Development actually house games and not rants.
    Click to expand...

    I know you said not to quote you but I needed to point something out. This thread is not a rant at all. A rant is mindless bickering just for the hell of it and without the intent to listen to anybody else. A discussion is where you point out a problem you see, or to the likes of that, and you discuss it with other people. I made this thread because I was interested in seeing what other people thought about this. Not because I wanted to get something off of my chest.
     
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    Follow up? Is this a joke? Are you further proving the unoriginality by creating a thread based on his? If you want people to take you seriously, you should probably stop.
     
    Ninja Tree said:
    Follow up? Is this a joke? Are you further proving the unoriginality by creating a thread based on his? If you want people to take you seriously, you should probably stop.
    Click to expand...

    And are you serious? If you want people to take you seriously then I suggest you stop spamming threads.

    This thread is to discuss the originality of games made with Kyledove's tiles and the starter kit, not the originality of threads.
     
    4th Gen Matt said:
    And are you serious? If you want people to take you seriously then I suggest you stop spamming threads.

    This thread is to discuss the originality of games made with Kyledove's tiles and the starter kit, not the originality of threads.
    Click to expand...
    Dawson already made a thread for that.
     
    Ninja Tree said:
    Dawson already made a thread for that.
    Click to expand...

    Thats your argument? Please tell me how many times you have seen the words "The other thread died so I made this one" in the first post of a thread? I must have seen it dozens of times. Dawson's thread died, and so I made this thread. I made it because I felt that this issue needed more discussion. Hopefully we can all resolve this issue on the tiles and starter kit if we talk it out. If you think that a problem goes away just because people do not talk about it then you are dead wrong. Now please. Stop spamming this thread.
     
    4th Gen Matt said:
    Thats your argument? Please tell me how many times you have seen the words "The other thread died so I made this one" in the first post of a thread? I must have seen it dozens of times. Dawson's thread died, and so I made this thread. I made it because I felt that this issue needed more discussion. Hopefully we can all resolve this issue on the tiles and starter kit if we talk it out. If you think that a problem goes away just because people do not talk about it then you are dead wrong. Now please. Stop spamming this thread.
    Click to expand...
    Threads don't die. Bump them with an insightful post and they will come.
     
    Ninja Tree said:
    Threads don't die. Bump them with an insightful post and they will come.
    Click to expand...

    The last post was over a month old. Obviously you do not remember the rules so let me refresh your memory. You are not allowed to post in a thread in which its last post was over a month old. Now I have already asked you nicely twice. Either stop posting in this thread or post your opinion on the starter kit and the tiles.
     
    These are not rants, I aggree, but what I see everywhere is pretty much the repitition of the same stuff. Where do you end up if you see the same arguement again and again?

    That is why I say that this is pointless, atleast now that we have a statement that no body can argue about. This wasn't suppose to be an arguement, a debate or anything of that sort, but rather something to remind everyone to be less unoriginal. There are no two sides, and since there isn't, there is only a rant that could be on the other side.
     
    As far as originality can go, just because a game uses custom tiles unique to that game doesn't make it original, it could still suck because of bad storyline etc.

    People need to take on more challenges instead of just sticking to the starter kit, expand the horizon a bit, start a revolution....

    You'll see what I mean later on... keep an eye on the showcase :P
     
    *sigh*
    So many posts like this..
    There is no problem with the starter kit, there is however, a problem with a lot of people using it, the starter kit provides the foundation to build your game on, most people just think of it as a game that you can edit, that is not the case.
    There are so many possibilities that go with the starter kit, just use your imagination and work!
    Or else you'll be living in a van... down by the river.
     
    .Phones said:
    *sigh*
    So many posts like this..
    There is no problem with the starter kit, there is however, a problem with a lot of people using it, the starter kit provides the foundation to build your game on, most people just think of it as a game that you can edit, that is not the case.
    There are so many possibilities that go with the starter kit, just use your imagination and work!
    Or else you'll be living in a van... down by the river.
    Click to expand...

    I understand your post but I do not understand the last part. I mean living by a river would be nice but not in a van. :D

    That is exactly what I am trying to do. Although I am using the starter kit, I am trying to pull away from it as much as I can. Even the intro background. I am making my own custom background instead of just the normal green one. I am making some of my own menu boxes, making an entire cast of new characters (22 to be exact), and looking at putting in some online play (possibly).
     
    Just to add my two cents worth into this topic. There seems to be some crossed wires in terms of my original point in that thread. I wasn't directly saying that using Pokémon Essentials and Kyle's tiles makes you automatically unoriginal.

    My point was that people were using Pokémon Essentials and Kyle's tiles and basically making Pokémon-by-numbers. I made a comment about most of the games looking the same, and I meant that in regards to features and systems. Most people just were just using the systems that came with Essentials and then just adding maps and a small instance of a story to it.

    Where's the new features and gameplay mechanics? We've all played Pokémon G/S/C, R/S/E, FR/LG and D/P to death, so why bother making the exact same game again? We wanna see games inspired by the Pokémon games, not ones that are trying to replicate them.
     
    Improfane said:
    I've not seen one game that has actually done this, to the very end. In short, no remake game has been finished yet!

    I think it would be cool if a remake were to be finished, based on Pokemon essentials, there would be less of a curve to making Pokemon games.

    Think of being able to see the Pokemon source and knowing how to do something. It would be just like that.

    Given all the problems that are repeatedly posted here, I don't think this would be a bad thing.
    Click to expand...

    Your epic sarcasm confuses me. :laugh:
     
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