6th Gen Antagonists outta hand or what?

[Shitik]

When I started playing X and Y, I thought Team Flare would've been more laid back than Team Plasma in B2 and W2, but...I was wrong, Team Flare is now trying to kill everyone! Geez, Team Rocket was just trying to steal Pokémon, they weren't going to kill them! Johto too, the only thing new with Team Rocket was that Giovanni left and they hired Admins. Not bad, Hoenn is where it gets worse, Team Magma in Ruby is trying to awaken Groudon to do God knows. Same with Sapphire, except it's Team Aqua who is doing the same with Kyogre. Sinnoh games were better, Team Galactic was just trying to create a new world which would overturn the new world. BW and BW2 were not too bad but they made it seem so, they were trying to make Pokémon and people become separate in a dramatic way, but battling them was fun. :) X and Y, the most evilest yet, trying to take AZ's secret weapon and use it to kill everyone, why? Pokémon isn't a game about killing, it's about battling and completing the Pokedex by catching 'em all. Not destroying one another by whatever that weapon was.


And that's my thoughts, you guys might have your own, and if you do feel free to post away here.


Thanks,
~Icey :)


P.S. I know the antagonists are to keep you busy in the game and Game Freak is running out of ideas but I think they could make it a little less violent just like Team Rocket. I still like the ideas, don't think me like I'm hating on Game Freak, I am just expressing my ideas and opinions. Also, here is my cruelty standing list.

Spoiler:

1. Team Flare - Pure evil
2. Team Plasma - Not too bad, just very dramatic
3. Team Aqua/Magma - Just what you'd think they'd act like
4. Team Galactic - The only thing bad (I mean creepy) is how Cyrus gets locked in the Distoration World, shouldn't they just make a backstory telling us what Cyrus does and that he escaped the world?
5. Team Rocket (Johto) - This team is only %1 evil, they only want to do what their OLD boss, Giovanni did.
6. Team Rocket (Kanto) - Just want to steal things, not kill.

 

[Nah]

I don't think that most of the Team Flare members knew about Lysandre's plan to kill off 99% of the world's population. They were just told that they were going to make the world a better place, and if you joined Team Flare, then you'd be happy in this new world. The grunts are far too goofy to make me think that they all knew about Lysandre's little genocide plan.

Cyrus, I'm pretty sure, wanted everyone else dead too. He was going to harness the power of the Creation Trio to make a new world from scratch, one without humans (because I think he doesn't like people either).

Perosnally, I don't mind if the villan Team has goals involving genocide since a) it often makes for a better story (in games in general) and b) things always work out in the end.

Those're my thoughts on it. I wish that the villan team would have more involvment in the storyline though.
And its easy to see them run out of ideas for the villan Teams, since in video games, the standard goals of the bad guys are usually some flavor/variation of:
1) Take over the world
2) Destroy the world

And there's only so many ways you can do that, particularly in an E rated game like Pokemon.

 

[KostK2Boss]

The hipster team that say they're the good guys when they're clearly the bad guys has become a tradition in the Pokemon games. Granted, in Ruby and Saphire it was cool, because it was the first time they did something like this. However, by the time Black and White came out, the whole concept had already gotten old in my opinion. Really, the only interesting thing about Team Plasma was the backstory between N and Ghetsis. Team Flare, though has nothing like that.
I do hope they realise they can't reuse the same ideas over and over and come Gen 7, we just get an evil team that enjoy being bad guys just for the heck of it. No world domination, no illusions of righteousness, no crystal flowers of death. Believe it or not, a villain can be threatening without trying to do any of those things.

 

[Outlier]

The only real difference between Lysandre's endgame and the endgame of most of the other antagonists from previous games, is that Lysandre flat out said he was going to kill people. Where as killing people/pokemon was more of an implied goal/threat by some of the bad guys in past games.

I was a bit surprised when Lysandre was so blunt about his intent to eliminate 99% of the world's population or whatever it was. But I wasn't offended and I don't think it was inappropriate, even for a kids game. Now if Team Flare were successful with their plan and they ended up showing people and pokemon dying in graphic detail, then I'd might say it would be inappropriate (for a kids game). But none of that happened. Instead the protagonist (you) thwarts the bad guys and their evil plans thus saving the day. It's been like that in every game and as long as they stick to that formula I don't think that even a 5 year old should have any problems getting through the story.

I think some people are too sensitive these days, especially when it comes to worrying about what is and isn't appropriate for children.

In the original Red & Blue games we were told that a Marowak died protecting her son from Team Rocket! We even encountered the ghost of the momma Marowak twice, eventually defeating it so her soul could finally rest in peace and move onto the afterlife. To me that was the darkest and most emotional part of any Pokemon game ever. And looking back I can fully appreciate just how amazing that moment was. It made you want to beat Team Rocket even more, which you ended up doing until Giovanni disbanded the evil organization altogether.

So yeah TLDR; As long as the good guys beat the bad guys in the end and they don't show too much violence or death, then I think Pokemon will remain a kid friendly game.

Part of me wishes for a more adult oriented game where they don't shy away from that sort of stuff. Though I know that will never happen. {XD}

 

[AuraKnight95]

In the original Red & Blue games we were told that a Marowak died protecting her son from Team Rocket! We even encountered the ghost of the momma Marowak twice, eventually defeating it so her soul could finally rest in peace and move onto the afterlife. To me that was the darkest and most emotional part of any Pokemon game ever. And looking back I can fully appreciate just how amazing that moment was. It made you want to beat Team Rocket even more, which you ended up doing until Giovanni disbanded the evil organization altogether.

Was going to mention this myself, but you beat me to it! :P But yeah. Although Team Rocket was only interested in stealing and making money, this event proves that they were not afraid to kill if they had to.

 

[acatfrommars]

I didn't like Team Flare. I thought that they were too antsy, and too over the top while they didn't have anything to prove. I did like Lysandre though, he seemed cool although he worked for Team Flare. The bad guys seemed too easy in this game, I remember that Team Plasma with Ghetsis, was actually a challenge back in B2. Team Flare was a disappointment. Go home Team Flare and bring back Team Rocket. I wanna see how Giovanni is doing these days.

 

[Timbjerr]

On the contrary, I'm a firm believer in the old storytelling philosophy that states that a great story begins with an interesting villain. Even though the villains in the main series Pokémon games are more afterthought than other video games, they are getting more and more interesting, which shows that Game Freak is becoming more and more concerned about immersing us in their worlds.

Something interesting that Galactic, Plasma, and Flare have in common is that the majority of their grunts were gullible idealists that were attracted to Cyrus/Ghetsis/Lyandre because of their shallow rhetoric and promises of a better world and ended up being used as blindly loyal tools for their boss's true goals, be it absolute domination over others or the destruction of the universe. It's actually a very poetic metaphor for modern politics if you ask me. XD

 

[Nah]

On the contrary, I'm a firm believer in the old storytelling philosophy that states that a great story begins with an interesting villain. Even though the villains in the main series Pokémon games are more afterthought than other video games, they are getting more and more interesting, which shows that Game Freak is becoming more and more concerned about immersing us in their worlds.

Something interesting that Galactic, Plasma, and Flare have in common is that the majority of their grunts were gullible idealists that were attracted to Cyrus/Ghetsis/Lyandre because of their shallow rhetoric and promises of a better world and ended up being used as blindly loyal tools for their boss's true goals, be it absolute domination over others or the destruction of the universe. It's actually a very poetic metaphor for modern politics if you ask me. XD

True, but the problem is is that Game Freak starts these great stories and then never develops them. Which is too bad, cuz they could've been thought-provoking stories.

 

[Link119]

Lol...

lol, as far as the Grunts knew:

Rocket: Take over Kanto...
Aqua: Drown the world...
Magma: Dry the world...
Galactic: Recreate the universe...umm...somehow...
Plasma: Separate humans from pokemon...
Flare: Force everyone to think like us (Which is what Plasma was doing, but there seemed to be no major goal besides what Lysandre knew)...

Actual goals:
Rocket: Take over Kanto...
Aqua: Drown the world...
Magma: Dry the world...
Galactic: Destroy humanity and recreate the universe...
Plasma: Honestly, I don't even remember what their intentions ended up being...
Flare: Kill everyone...

Honestly, I try having an open mind about the teams, but Flare as a whole was the only crappy part of the game for me (Not to be confused with "The only disappointing part")...They sound like a Fire team, and I'm fine with them not being a Fire team...Flare also refers to Fashion, okay...But they could've been a little consistent and maybe at least stopped using the pokemon that didn't fit the theme at all after the first few grunts...(I refer to the Poison types, which are intentionally ugly, therefore they don't fit the Fire or Fashion aspect of Flare...Unless they were shooting for irony there...)...

I liked Lysandre (As a character)...I really just hated the Team...

 

[Reecho]

I disliked the team for this gen. I did like Lysandre, but I prefer the teams like Rocket, Magma, and Aqua.

 

[Aeroblast]

Lol...

lol, as far as the Grunts knew:

Rocket: Take over Kanto...
Aqua: Drown the world...
Magma: Dry the world...
Galactic: Recreate the universe...umm...somehow...
Plasma: Separate humans from pokemon...
Flare: Force everyone to think like us (Which is what Plasma was doing, but there seemed to be no major goal besides what Lysandre knew)...

Actual goals:
Rocket: Take over Kanto...
Aqua: Drown the world...
Magma: Dry the world...
Galactic: Destroy humanity and recreate the universe...
Plasma: Honestly, I don't even remember what their intentions ended up being...
Flare: Kill everyone...

Honestly, I try having an open mind about the teams, but Flare as a whole was the only crappy part of the game for me (Not to be confused with "The only disappointing part")...They sound like a Fire team, and I'm fine with them not being a Fire team...Flare also refers to Fashion, okay...But they could've been a little consistent and maybe at least stopped using the pokemon that didn't fit the theme at all after the first few grunts...(I refer to the Poison types, which are intentionally ugly, therefore they don't fit the Fire or Fashion aspect of Flare...Unless they were shooting for irony there...)...

I liked Lysandre (As a character)...I really just hated the Team...

Ghetsis wanted to steal all the pokemon so he can be the only one with it so he can rule the world... In the sequels he wanted to do it more forcefully by freeze everything else so he can steal the Pokemon himself. i.e. he was a madman.

As I've said already somewhere else, Lysander's motive just seems to be too vague. Sure, he hates the humanity, but is that it? Or did something happen to him on a personal level that caused him to think that way? Did his internal selfishness get the better of him?

 

[Link119]

Ghetsis wanted to steal all the pokemon so he can be the only one with it so he can rule the world... In the sequels he wanted to do it more forcefully by freeze everything else so he can steal the Pokemon himself. i.e. he was a madman.

As I've said already somewhere else, Lysander's motive just seems to be too vague. Sure, he hates the humanity, but is that it? Or did something happen to him on a personal level that caused him to think that way? Did his internal selfishness get the better of him?

Ahhh, thanks for the refresh...And yeah, that has to be it...They could've done a better job giving Lysandre some backstory, but I believe it was something along the lines of him trying to help the world, but he got frustrated doing it the difficult (but peaceful) way...The only way to completely save the world is to get everyone to think the same exact way...And the only easy way to do that is to kill anyone who doesn't share his (team's) mindset...

Not gonna lie, I may've put that into my own head...I don't solidly remember what Sycamore said, but that's how I put the hints together...

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Story has never been the strongest point in Pokemon games, so don't expect evil teams to be as fleshed-out as what you're used to in other RPGs, since gameplay experiences is highly prioritized. When GF tried to create a deep storyline back in Gen V, everyone criticized BW for being too linear and the lack of back-tracking, which ironically is one of the tropes gamers are tired of in other video games such as Metroid.

Ahhh, thanks for the refresh...And yeah, that has to be it...They could've done a better job giving Lysandre some backstory, but I believe it was something along the lines of him trying to help the world, but he got frustrated doing it the difficult (but peaceful) way...The only way to completely save the world is to get everyone to think the same exact way...And the only easy way to do that is to kill anyone who doesn't share his (team's) mindset...

But that's what made Lysandre the true hero of the series and not your character, because he's more concern about the world's future and wants to help save it from being destroyed.

 

[DynamicD]

Team Flare was Team Rocket, Lysandre was Cyrus, just 100 times worse.
Cyrus wanted to replace the old world with a new, but Lysandre wanted to just coldy kill everybody with a legendary Pokemon.
See, Team Flare is like the new Team Rocket; just going around being crooks, but Lysandre and the other boss had much worse plans.

 

[morrison]

Ahhh, thanks for the refresh...And yeah, that has to be it...They could've done a better job giving Lysandre some backstory, but I believe it was something along the lines of him trying to help the world, but he got frustrated doing it the difficult (but peaceful) way...The only way to completely save the world is to get everyone to think the same exact way...And the only easy way to do that is to kill anyone who doesn't share his (team's) mindset...

Not gonna lie, I may've put that into my own head...I don't solidly remember what Sycamore said, but that's how I put the hints together...

hey it is a jacen/ darth caedus story, so maybe he read too much star wars books :P

 

[EmBright]

I do think you guys are missing out on something obvious, or maybe i've picked it up because in the darkest corners of my mind there's something that thinks an awful lot like Lyssandre:
This game starts to parody out current fuel/overpopulation problem, and Lyssandre says it himself: If something can't be shared, it will be fought over. He's talking about your pokémon battle for the mega ring, but doesn't that reflect wars happening in our own world over dwindling sources of oil? Yea, exactly. I bet I'm not the only one on the planet thinking there's too many damn humans (But before you call a straight-jacket on me, I recognise those thoughts as bad and won't do anything about it bla bla.)

Also, the fact that Lyssandre has a close personal past with Sycamore, I don't know if that's a recurring theme in the villains from the pokémon games, but it struck me as the first time i've noticed anything like it. Also, the fact that Sycamore sympathises with Lyssandre's motives; but of course, totally disagrees with his methods, because y'know, you can't just kill all the pokémon. (For those that don't remember, when he aditted outright he wanted to kill every 'mon, he actually started crying, because he thought it was a terrible, necessary evil.)

I really actually enjoyed reading through Lyssandre's dialogues, it seemed to me (Although I don't remember much of Gen I~III and skipped GenV, So I can only really compare to Cyrus accurately) that he was the first morally-grey antagonist of the pokémon games. He was /trying/ to save the world from it's own destruction, however, blinded by his motives, he decided to /become/ the destruction. It's a very intricate villain for a kids' game, but I think Nintendo might have taken the hint and added some more adult-appealing twists for those that recognise them, whilst keeping the "good guys thwart the bad guys" formula in place for the children audience.

In short, Lyssandre is probably the most interesting antagonist yet. Team Flare didn't really appeal to me, but at the same time, none of the previous games' grunts have been anything interesting to me, either.

 

[Link119]

I do think you guys are missing out on something obvious, or maybe i've picked it up because in the darkest corners of my mind there's something that thinks an awful lot like Lyssandre:
This game starts to parody out current fuel/overpopulation problem, and Lyssandre says it himself: If something can't be shared, it will be fought over. He's talking about your pokémon battle for the mega ring, but doesn't that reflect wars happening in our own world over dwindling sources of oil? Yea, exactly. I bet I'm not the only one on the planet thinking there's too many damn humans (But before you call a straight-jacket on me, I recognise those thoughts as bad and won't do anything about it bla bla.)

Also, the fact that Lyssandre has a close personal past with Sycamore, I don't know if that's a recurring theme in the villains from the pokémon games, but it struck me as the first time i've noticed anything like it. Also, the fact that Sycamore sympathises with Lyssandre's motives; but of course, totally disagrees with his methods, because y'know, you can't just kill all the pokémon. (For those that don't remember, when he aditted outright he wanted to kill every 'mon, he actually started crying, because he thought it was a terrible, necessary evil.)

I really actually enjoyed reading through Lyssandre's dialogues, it seemed to me (Although I don't remember much of Gen I~III and skipped GenV, So I can only really compare to Cyrus accurately) that he was the first morally-grey antagonist of the pokémon games. He was /trying/ to save the world from it's own destruction, however, blinded by his motives, he decided to /become/ the destruction. It's a very intricate villain for a kids' game, but I think Nintendo might have taken the hint and added some more adult-appealing twists for those that recognise them, whilst keeping the "good guys thwart the bad guys" formula in place for the children audience.

In short, Lyssandre is probably the most interesting antagonist yet. Team Flare didn't really appeal to me, but at the same time, none of the previous games' grunts have been anything interesting to me, either.

I realized all of those things...I just tried to avoid rambling too much, so I deleted a portion of my responses...lol...But yeah, I like that they're going that route, but like I said, I liked Lysandre...I didn't like Team Flare...I thought they were either half-assed or just badly executed...I know they tried putting a light on customization and fashion in the game with them...The thing is, I actually liked the past grunts as...characters?...As...well, I'll try explaining:

The Rocket grunts, they had a good idea of what they were fighting for...
The second wave of Rocket Grunts had no idea of what they were fighting for...
The wave in the additional portion of FR/LG seemed noticeably lost without their leader...
Team Aqua/Magma grunts all knew exactly what they were fighting for or at least as much as the leaders...(Neither leader seemed to realize the disasters that would occur from drying the world or drowning it)...
Team Galactic grunts had literally no idea what they were fighting for...Cyrus had them completely brainwashed...The higher ups knew, but they didn't realize Cyrus had no plans for them...
Team Plasma as a whole didn't know Ghetsis's plan, but they thought they did, and only questioned the Black and White question..."Should humans be allowed to capture pokemon [and make them fight]?"...

I think the grunts are important cause you can measure the leader through them...In the end, I can tell you Giovanni was simply mob-leader evil, he knew his limits and was smart, but he underestimated Red...Archie and Maxie were selfish and had the most dangerous intentions that would've led not only to human extinction, but the extinction of pokemon (in Aqua's case, just the ones that lacked gills or weren't Water type)...Cyrus and Lysandre both had good intentions and went about them the wrong way (Okay, okay, I know that Cyrus wanted to destroy humanity as a whole, but in his head, he was doing it for the good of Pokemon)...And Ghetsis was the only other pure evil main antagonist, who knew fully-well what he was doing and what his limits were...

If I have any information wrong, feel free to correct me, or simply call me insane for claiming Cyrus's intentions were good...lol...