Atheism

[Yusshin]

I hafta go out now, but I'll be back in about seven hours to continue this. Perhaps some of the translations are speculations based on the individual, but that's how I see it. Philippians 2:6 already has two meanings pending the Bible version.

Maybe someone can answer to me why there are versions of a Holy Book? Surely there should only be one version - the true version. That's something that bothered me about Christianity, too, that Islam doesn't have. All the Qu'rans are untouched since 600AD and the same writing and whatnaught. There are no versions. Why are there many, many different versions of the Bible, whose phrasing may cause misinterpretations, such as Philippians 2:6?

 

[Zeph.]

Wow. I'm abrasive, so I'm a troll? Get real. It's not my fault that you're used to a nicer tone.

I didn't say anything about trolls. Not once.

I can't help but feel you're looking for some sort of heated debate though...

 

[Åzurε]

I never read those passages before, but it seems to me that Jesus is speaking for God to the people, and not as God, if that makes sense.

I'm sure I understand what you mean, but not quite how you see the verses.

Again, faith differences, though. I think the Jesus = God is a major difference that the Romans and the translators can be blamed for. I think in order to truly understand what Jesus was meaning to say, you would need to read the Hebrew version itself, since the translations were a bit odd (after all, they mention Mohammed in the Hebrew version of the Bible, but they literally translated his name into "the Praised One" or something like that. Who knows what else might have been changed without Christians realizing it).

I've done a little bit of internet investigation and asked questions about this. The Bible has not been translated between languages many times. Old Testament in Hebrew, New in Greek, and the Septuagint. Most all translations derive from those, and the only things that change are pronouns (gender-neutral Hebrew for "children" into "sons", e.g.) and the connotation of the new words, which may skew meanings a bit. That's why I like to use the Greek and Hebrew.

Or maybe Jesus was God, but I personally don't believe so. I won't try to convince a Christian otherwise, though, since that wouldn't be very nice and it'd be disrespectful :|

I get your position, but I'd like you to know that this is one Christian who will take no offense.

[Edit] Reading Philippians 2:6 makes me shudder. I guess you can assume why. Nothing is equal to God, nei' a creation, nei' Jesus himself. A creation cannot amount to its Creator.

Actually, Philippians 2:6 is a great example for the broadness of translations. Lookie:

Quote:
Originally Posted by New International Version
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Which means to say that Jesus in nature was as benevolent as God (but not God), and that equality with God is infeasable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Living Translation
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.
Which means Jesus = God, and that he shouldn't brag about being equal.

Totally different meanings, yet it is the same verse.

This is how I see it.

NIV: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
NLT: Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.
Christ was, in the deepest part of him, his very nature, God. He is perfect, and equal to God. However he did not think of this as something to keep, like a position. He was willing to go and leave it all behind to become human. A sinless human, but a human. However, this is my interpretation, and the best thing to do would be to find the original Greek and translate the words directly.

Here's the rest of the passage: Philippians 2.

EDIT to allow for Yusshin's second post:

Maybe someone can answer to me why there are versions of a Holy Book? Surely there should only be one version - the true version. That's something that bothered me about Christianity, too, that Islam doesn't have. All the Qu'rans are untouched since 600AD and the same writing and whatnaught. There are no versions. Why are there many, many different versions of the Bible, whose phrasing may cause misinterpretations, such as Philippians 2:6?

It bugs me too. I'm not sure why there's more than one, to be honest. But in the original languages, especially the Old Testament, there's incredibly infinitesimal change.

It's funny how the topic about atheism metamorphosed into religious discussion. Although, how far could it have gone without something poppin' up? Sorry about the derail.

 

[Neil Peart]

I didn't say anything about trolls. Not once.

I can't help but feel you're looking for some sort of heated debate though...

What is up with everyone assuming here?

Trust me bro, if I wanted heated debate, I'd make it much earlier than this. You only assume I want heated debate because I want to discuss a topic such as atheism.

 

[Yusshin]

EDIT to allow for Yusshin's second post:
It bugs me too. I'm not sure why there's more than one, to be honest. But in the original languages, especially the Old Testament, there's incredibly infinitesimal change.

It's funny how the topic about atheism metamorphosed into religious discussion. Although, how far could it have gone without something poppin' up? Sorry about the derail.

I remember when they demanded a specific version of the Bible to be used in church lol I never understood that. Something's wrong with the fact the Bible has "versions". It's physical proof that the book was modified. Surely there should only be one English version, one French version, etc. It really doesn't make sense.

And yes, sorry for derailing :] Always nice to talk to you, though, Azure. Very level-headed.

 

[Chibi-chan]

FYI.
You're not going to change a person's religious views on a Pokemon forum.
Sorry but that just isn't going to happen so stop debating and move on :|

 

[professor plum]

I think Erin's assuming Christians worship a false God - Jesus - since Christians give Jesus more attention than God, and split God into "three parts" (Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost).

Well, it's not really split. It's kind of split, but it's all God. God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit. Jesus was kind of the physical manifestation of God on Earth during life, but Jesus was still God in Heaven, if that makes sense as well as the Holy Spirit which lives within Christians. At least, that's how I recall learning it XD; I may be wrong oo;

But as Zet stated, it's kind of self-contradicting. Regardless of whether or not worshipping Jesus is worshipping God "by proxy", it's still worshipping a physical manifestation of spiritualism, which is, by definition, an idol.

By honoring Jesus, they're still honoring God because God, technically speaking, is Jesus. The Son thing was more metaphoric than anything, I think. Lol. It's not exactly an Idol, but in a sense it kind of us. I understand where you're coming from, but . . it's kind of deeper than that, I think XD;

Me: If Jesus is God, why didn't Jesus ever prove that he is God? In fact, why isn't there ANY proof that God actually exists.
Him: He did prove it. He performed loads of miracles, and he was resurrected. That proves that he is God!
Me: Why didn't he prove that he is God and prove the existence of god in a way thats provable, like moving a mountain or physically manifesting?
Him: He couldn't do that; that would take away our free will to believe in him. People must come to God through faith.
Me: Then why did Jesus perform the miracles described in the Bible?
Him: To prove that he is God. If he had not done the miracles, culminating in his final most miraculous resurrection, we would not know that he is God.
Me: You told me that if Jesus performed miracles to prove that he was God, then it took away our free will.
Him: No, I -
Me: But thats what you just said?
Him: No, what I just said is that the miracles prove that Jesus was God, and that God is real.
Me: So why didn't Jesus or God perform real, concrete miracles like moving a mountain?
Him: Because that would take away our free will.

Can you see the circular logic here?

Actually, no.

You're kind of missing the concept of faith which is religion in itself.

Faith
–noun1.confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2.belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

The whole concept behind religion is that one believes God can do anything based on what they have read in the Bible/etc. They don't need to see Him do something like move a mountain because, faith says that he can do it. But, why should he?
Otherwise, there is no faith within him.
I can see how you think it's circular, and it kind of is, but really, that's what religion is in general: faith in a higher being that one entrusts the eternal soul to.
Jesus performed the miracles to prove that He was God, and to help people in general.
But, He didn't need to do stuff like moving mountains because faith alone is what helps you. If that makes sense. XD;

I remember when they demanded a specific version of the Bible to be used in church lol I never understood that. Something's wrong with the fact the Bible has "versions". It's physical proof that the book was modified. Surely there should only be one English version, one French version, etc. It really doesn't make sense.

Originally, there was just the Hebrew Text. But, it was translated so the religion could be made more accessible to others. And so on. The reason we have so many different versions of the Bible is because:
1. Different interpretations of language used
2. Making it even MORE understandable [which is why we have the New International Version]

From what I've read, a lot of stuff is often lost in translation, and I think if everyone could understand the original texts to the fullest extent of it, people would take a whole new meaning from the Bible.

Personally, this is where I find fault with some religion: The Bible has been editted by Man to the extent of it hardly being God's word. The Catholic Church, during the 300s, edited it heavily, from what I understand, and I think that a lot of it is sort of 'manipulated' to justify causes at the time.
For example, at one point, The Bible was used to justify Slavery, Male dominance over Female, and even apparently Nazism. To think that the Bible can be used to Hate, to cause people to dislike others and to cast stones at others when one of Jesus's basic messages was to "Love your Neighbor".
And, I think this is what causes a lot of people to turn away from religion simply because they may or may not be condemned by the Bible because of who they are. [I know I was turned away from It for quite some time because of the whole Homosexuality thing]

Truly, the Bible overall is fascinating to examine, and yeah, I've done a bit of it in my time XD;

But yeah. I'm not an athiest, and I'm not . . exactly a Christian. I mean, I am to an extent, but, I just can't agree with the word of God being used to hate. It's not right, ever.

Personally, I think for both sides, Atheists and Theists alike, that people make assumptions about the other side [Atheists calling Theists ignorant and Theists calling Atheists ignorant] and go into these sorts of threads with misconception that they are being ~persecuted~ or something. u_u;

 

[Yusshin]

The various translations of the Bible is what causes a lot of ranged interpretations, though. If it had just been translated once and the person say "This is the official translation. There will be no other", then I don't think we'd have so many branches of Christianity. Maybe one or two, since interpretations will still come along and creep up on people, but it won't seem so odd. Like with Philippians 2:6, the version actually deforms the meaning of the phrase entirely. There really should just be one version, and that's that. There can't be "versions" of a translation of a Book that only has One Meaning.

I'm sure if someone retranslated it and published a copy as true to its core as possible, and included all of the text the Romans omitted / changed when making the New Testament specifically, we'd notice even more similarities between religions. There are many now, but there are some stunning differences (due to the Romans, the omission of certain "books" of the Bible (such as the Book from Jesus' brother), and bad translations) floating around.

It's just too bad humans had to modify it a while back to grip power over religion ): Look where it's gotten the world. Blargh!

Ah, well.

[Edit]

I would go as far to say that if there weren't so much confusion between "versions" and different meanings of the Bible, there wouldn't be so many atheists today. The majority think religion is crud because of it not making sense due to modifications and confusing, misinterpreted phrases. We need a professional who knows every exact expression and phrase in Hebrew to retranslate the Bible for us - and make one, unique version. As was intended.

 

[Erin]

By honoring Jesus, they're still honoring God because God, technically speaking, is Jesus. The Son thing was more metaphoric than anything, I think. Lol. It's not exactly an Idol, but in a sense it kind of us. I understand where you're coming from, but . . it's kind of deeper than that, I think XD;

"Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."

Assuming the "Son of God" thing was metaphorical, was he was just kinda talking to himself there? There's several phrases like that throughout the New Testament, where Jesus refers to himself as the Son of God, not in a sense of "we're-all-God's-children", but rather he has some sort of unique connection that normal men, & even other prophets, did not.

Either the Holy Trinity is three separate divine entities, or Jesus Christ is a mortal manifestation of God. In that case, it's either polygamy or idol worship. Not that I really have a problem with that; it doesn't detract from the messages of morality && compassion offered in the Bible. It's just a self-contradiction that leads me to question Christianity's status as the "one true religion".

I stand by what I've said before--- I firmly don't believe any one religion is 100% correct. They're all the same stories of morality && definition of good and evil, with the names && conditions changed to fit the socio-political, cultural, && historical contexts of different regions across the world. God-inspired ideas changed slightly so that all cultures could understand in antiquity.

 

[Muffin™]

Well, since I don't give a damn about being flamed because I'M aware that this is just a forum filled with people I will never meet and have no consequence to fear, I'm atheist because it's logical. No decent God in my mind would let murder, rape, and other atrocities to our society happen. On a more practical level, I haven't seen him or any of his "miracles." God was a clever little story made up by power-hungry and greedy imbeciles long ago to keep populations in check and weasel a few dollars out of it themselves.

I've had family members imprisoned because of lies, friends dead way too soon, and the universal softener I've always received is "he was taken for a reason, he's in a better place."

Bullsh--.

God's only looking out for himself, in that case - not my personal feelings and sanity.

Know how they say "God never gives you more than you can handle"? Tell that to the people on this planet who kill themselves every 30 seconds.

Religion is all an easily refutable pile of nonsense. A crutch to mask reality and placate a tortured soul.

Now flame away - I embrace it.

This pretty much sums up my belief.


But not about the family part, btw.

 

[Hamilton]

well here's a life lesson from a fourteen year old-
i believe in God, but i do not judge others- i embrace other peoples beliefs- it is the right thing to do- no religion (or non-religion) is evil, superior, or inferior to any other, and if you (not you as in a certain one person, you as in anyone) think that you need to do soul searching- it's just a way to live life, and if you can't walk through this park that is life without smelling the flowers, you might as well not be living :)
or at least, that's what i believe
better summed up by Yusshins siggy
"Religion is not bad;
People are.
Religion doesn't kill;
People do."

 

[Waffle-San]

FYI.
You're not going to change a person's religious views on a Pokemon forum.
Sorry but that just isn't going to happen so stop debating and move on :|

Why? Even if they don't change someone's opinion they can still further their own belief which I would argue is always worth it. As long as it's all in good spirit and it doesn't get personal it's a good thing.

Here was my answer to another similiar thread, I put the directly unrelated stuff in spoiler tags. I know how the OP likes elaboration so this should explain my agnostic point of view perfectly. :)

Spoiler:

If no one wants to read this wall of text, the last paragraph is my answer. But if you wish to fully understand where my answer came from and my thought process I'd read all of it. Thanks. :)

Probably not, cause realistically God is not a solid. I can ask everyone in this entire thread to define God for me and I will most likely get a different definition from each person. You can't disprove a religion without disproving all religions.

As humans we are naturally scared of the unknown. We haven't always had advanced Sciences but we developed our thoughts and beliefs at a young age. Religion is our way, as humans, to explain the unexplainable. Isn't it odd that almost all Gods seem to have some sort of human characteristic or feature? Whether it be human appearance or human like emotion. Yet we were not the first species to inhibit this Earth, not by a long shot. The Dinosaur's might have died out but they were a success as a species. 160 million+ years of life is something we can only marvel at and dream to accomplish.

Lets put it this way. Death is something many people fear, and why should they? If you're thinking about your death and have no idea what comes next, you'll be terrified. But if I come to you and tell you of this beautiful place that we all will go to when we die, I bet you're going to be relieved and way more comfortable with your own death.
This is most probably the basis of religion, since this is a pokemon forum I'll use 5th generation as an example.

Zorua and Zoroark have already been confirmed and released. Say over the next couple weeks we get some more tid bits of information. We learn of a couple more pokemon (2 or 3) and a little bit about the terrain. Then 5th gen is unexpectedly delayed until an unknown date. Over time fan fics star to be written and read. I inadvertently start reading these fan fics about what people think 5th generation will be like, based on the little information we have. After awhile I pick a favourite and pass the story on to other people.
Now it turns out, there are three main favourite theories (among others) as to what Generation 5 will be. Lets call them Christianity, Islam and Hindu. As time goes on and 5th gen is never released people slowly start to forget that the official plot was never released and begin to believe one of these three. (This is life, cause obviously this wouldn't just happen with a game). Soon, these three are edited slightly, lost in translation or epiphanitized. Call these new side beliefs Judaism and Anglican. Time goes on and soon, people in certain parts of the world get frustrated with people telling a different story, this Judaism. As Christianity is the most populous religion, these Jews have to endure terrible things until soon it's Christianity or death.
Now fast forward and finally after lifetimes, some more 5th gen details are leaked. Very few based on the mysteries that still lie. But enough to go against some of "facts" portrayed by the other religions. Firm believers slightly edit their beliefs to compensate or simply ignore these findings. Other people stop believing entirally while finally some will create new religions based on old and new info. Now lets call a couple of these new beliefs Mormon and Scientology.

There we go, the evolution of religion. BUT despite what I've just said, I still believe in something. See with all I've just written there still isn't any real true evidence to prove that Gods are real OR unreal. And frankly since Religion is a belief based system, one can just edit their beliefs. Does evolution disprove Religion? Or just prove that God was creative and developed our species? I can't really say either. Also, I refuse to pick a certain belief, cause I will not say that any one religion or belief is wrong. For all I care, the Egyptians, Greeks, Roman, Christians, Muslims, Buhddists. None of them are more right than any other cause a thought can't be wrong. A thought is a thing, it's a noun a thought is.

All of this has been on topic mind you, it's my thought process to get to my answer for this thread. If God is how I've heard him described by most Christians (since this thread unfortunately looks at this religion more than others) he would not care if people believed in him or not. Instead he'd hope people believed in what he stood for. If 200 years from now, two men are having an argument prompting one of these men to quote me, the other man then asks where he heard that. The first man can't remember and states he must have thought of it himself. Sure I didn't get recognition for my words, but I care more that he remembered the words themselves. The fact I said them is irrelevant in this context. If someone "finds" themselves without the help of god but comes to embody a lot of which God stands for than that in my opinion should be enough. And hopefully most Believers recognize that. Which leads me, finally, to my answer.

Spoiler:

If I had all the evidence that God did not exist in the world I would neither burn it or publish it. Knowledge is power, and I'd use it to try and change peoples opinion ON Religion and God instead of IN Religion and God. You're simply naive if you do not admit that Religion has brought plenty of both "good" and "bad" things to this world. That's why I would not publish my evidence but instead use it to build a better religious understanding. Hopefully decreasing religious wars without destroying anyone's faith.

 

[Yusshin]

"Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."

I forgot about this.

If Jesus is indeed, God, why does he (in the Book of Matthews) fall to his face and pray to God? Why does he constantly refer to God, and pray to Him as if God is a different and completely unique entity? Why would God bow before Himself?

It would seem silly for an intelligent being like God to pray to Himself. Why would God pray to Himself, or say bluntly: "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do"? That doesn't make sense at all. Surely He would not even mention it, if Jesus were God. He would think to Himself. He wouldn't outrightly contradict what the vast majority of the translations of Philippians 2:6 has stated (Jesus = God).

That's one of the major contradictions of the Bible. I can't believe I forgot it, actually.

Maybe Azure or someone else can offer some insight.

 

[Åzurε]

I forgot about this.

If Jesus is indeed, God, why does he (in the Book of Matthews) fall to his face and pray to God? Why does he constantly refer to God, and pray to Him as if God is a different and completely unique entity? Why would God bow before Himself?

It would seem silly for an intelligent being like God to pray to Himself. Why would God pray to Himself, or say bluntly: "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do"? That doesn't make sense at all. Surely He would not even mention it, if Jesus were God. He would think to Himself. He wouldn't outrightly contradict what the vast majority of the translations of Philippians 2:6 has stated (Jesus = God).

That's one of the major contradictions of the Bible. I can't believe I forgot it, actually.

Maybe Azure or someone else can offer some insight.

Jesus is often described as "wholly God, wholly man". It's a bit like God taken into a finite view, an aspect of God that has become human. Jesus, while divine, and in the deepest part of him God, was still then a mortal. Post-ascension however, he's not so human. Restored to power, you could say. But he was born like a normal person, grew up as a carpenter's son, and couldn't do anything miraculous without God's help on some level. He was very well acquainted with scripture, and prayed to God quite a lot. Likely not in his own name, that would be redundant as he is the connection to God. He probably had to be pretty intelligent, too, judging by the responses he gave the people trying to get him arrested all day long. I digress. God made a common person after himself who was in possession of something extraordinary.

My thoughts are a little choppy, but I hope I get something across. It's something I've never tried to explain before. This discussion feels good, to be quite honest. Heh, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another".

 

[Neil Peart]

FYI.
You're not going to change a person's religious views on a Pokemon forum.
Sorry but that just isn't going to happen so stop debating and move on :|

Here's a piece of news for you - no one is trying to change ANYONE'S mind. That wasn't my intention. Sadly, people do assume too much, and mods aren't exempt it seems.

Everyone is calmly discussing.

 

[Shiny]

I am an Athiest. Subconciously I've always been Athiest, I never believe in Religion. If a god did exist, why would he let such bad things happen to the world.

 

[Yusshin]

Jesus is often described as "wholly God, wholly man". It's a bit like God taken into a finite view, an aspect of God that has become human. Jesus, while divine, and in the deepest part of him God, was still then a mortal. Post-ascension however, he's not so human. Restored to power, you could say. But he was born like a normal person, grew up as a carpenter's son, and couldn't do anything miraculous without God's help on some level. He was very well acquainted with scripture, and prayed to God quite a lot. Likely not in his own name, that would be redundant as he is the connection to God. He probably had to be pretty intelligent, too, judging by the responses he gave the people trying to get him arrested all day long. I digress. God made a common person after himself who was in possession of something extraordinary.

My thoughts are a little choppy, but I hope I get something across. It's something I've never tried to explain before. This discussion feels good, to be quite honest. Heh, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another".

Mm... Doesn't make much sense to me. He prays to God the entire time, yet he consciously knows he is God. Ah, well.

I am an Athiest. Subconciously I've always been Athiest, I never believe in Religion. If a god did exist, why would he let such bad things happen to the world.

As I said, it's a test to see who deserves to go to Heaven. If you can get past Satan's mockeries, blasphemies, and desire for people to disbelieve in God, then you're all right. It hurts Him to see the world hurt each other, but it's showing on the grand scale who deserves to be beside Him in the afterlife. He rewards the victims, and although sometimes the "evil" people seem unpunished, they always are.

That's what I believe :] and everything makes a lot more sense when I see it this way.

 

[Zizi]

I've always considered myself atheist as i am opposed to following a religion. I believe in live and let live so I have no problems with anyone around me following a religion as long as they don't force their views on me and vice versa. I do believe in a higher power like some kind of energy force but not a God. I'm happy just taking each day as it comes =D

 

[Åzurε]

Mm... Doesn't make much sense to me. He prays to God the entire time, yet he consciously knows he is God. Ah, well.

I'll try one more time, but then I'm done with this one. First off, God doesn't have to be one "person". God is outside of time and space and everything we accept as the laws of the physical world, and doesn't have to conform to being a single entity. So, with that in mind:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John 1:1-5

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. Part of John 1:14

It's difficult thing to really understand. The Logos, translated as Word, became Jesus. While he is that which God is at his core, He was separate from God, because he was human. He prayed to God often, because he was human. Sinless, but even the most powerful or successful or good or evil person ends up just being a person.
Remember this?

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

It's what I'm getting at. I wish I could explain better, but this is the tough part for me.

As I said, it's a test to see who deserves to go to Heaven. If you can get past Satan's mockeries, blasphemies, and desire for people to disbelieve in God, then you're all right. It hurts Him to see the world hurt each other, but it's showing on the grand scale who deserves to be beside Him in the afterlife. He rewards the victims, and although sometimes the "evil" people seem unpunished, they always are.

This is just my view on this- God is big on free will. He may take a small hand in some things- random numbers, timing, people meeting people- But most everything is our fault. Satan takes a more proactive role, and tries to break down faith through things that would discourage us, or attract attention to something else, or allowing anger or corruption into your mind. Stuff like suicides and high school massacres ultimately happen because of people. Not God. For those who can see these things through faith, they can even have a way of edifying you in the end.

 

[Yusshin]

I'll try one more time, but then I'm done with this one.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John 1:1-5

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. Part of John 1:14

It's difficult thing to really understand. The Logos, translated as Word, became Jesus. While he is that which God is at his core, He was separate from God, because he was human. He prayed to God often, because he was human. Sinless, but even the most powerful or successful or good or evil person ends up just being a person.
Remember this?

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

It's what I'm getting at. I wish I could explain better, but this is the tough part for me.

The way I see it, that just shows the Jesus was the physical form of God's benevolence, but was not God. That is why he prayed to God, since God is a separate entity, and always was when talking about Jesus.

That's the jiff I get from that :< Thanks for trying to explain, though.

This is just my view on this- God is big on free will. He may take a small hand in some things- random numbers, timing, people meeting people- But most everything is our fault. Satan takes a more proactive role, and tries to break down faith through things that would discourage us, or attract attention to something else, or allowing anger or corruption into your mind. Stuff like suicides and high school massacres ultimately happen because of people. Not God. For those who can see these things through faith, they can even have a way of edifying you in the end.

Indeed, 99.9% of it is us. God does sometimes take timing and people in hand, but generally, He's just watching. I do believe that when someone suffers terribly at the hands of man, God will intervene sometimes. I've had it happen with me where I was treated terribly, had no friends, and I had no support from my family. I was given intelligence and a gift with linguistics, but no one really recognized it. I was on the brink of breaking down and injuring myself purposefully, but then I believe God intervened and gave me the most wonderful person in the world. I believe that was God trying to tell me that although things were always rough, I should force on anyway, and never give up because He has a purpose for me that He wants me to fulfill. I don't know what it is yet, but I have this odd feeling in my heart that He's watching. Since then, everything has gotten 100x better, much to my surprise. I believe God had something to do with that.

I don't mind that that ^ may sound corny, but that's what I wholeheartedy believe. God doesn't intervene all of the time, though. Sometimes it's just part of this "test" that He wants us to endure hardship, to prove that we won't break under pressure and fall away from Him.

My "L" key on my keyboard is stuck >> /annoyed