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Building a Competitive Team (VGC Doubles)

Amore

Amore

    • 5,288
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    • Seen Mar 3, 2025
    I imagine only Serenity will reply to this, but I'll write it as if there are others!

    I'm going to get into competitive battles again after taking a few months off. I haven't played SV other than to get the minimum LP reward for 1 battle per season, where I messed around walling bottom-ranked Dondozo teams with Lightningrod Pikachu + Storm Drain Gastrodon, and an Imposter Ditto. Not exactly good preparation for Global Challenge II this weekend!

    When I bred my last bunch of Pokémon to tackle the second half of the Paldea map, I EV'd them using Smogon sets too a) because removing EVs is so needlessly annoying in SV and b) I had tons of Vitamins from 7-star raids. So I have the following ready to go:
    • Mankey - 252 HP / 196 Atk / 12 Def / 30 SpD / 20 Spe
    • Wattrel - 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spe
    • Cetoddle - 6 HP / 252 Atk / 76 Def / 176 Spe
    • Tinkatink - 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 SpD
    • Gimmighoul - 196 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 52 Spe

    I really want to use the last one of those, I already have 999 coins I'm just appreciating my little chest of joy (caught in one throw in a Level ball, Modest, with near-perfect HP, SpA, and Spe and only 3 Atk!) as long as I can. I've seen that in Smogon's VGC Series 1 strategies they recommend Kilowattrel as a teammate for Gholdengo, providing Tailwind support. However, there is no set for Series 2 onwards so perhaps the Paradox Pokémon have rendered it irrelevant?

    Anyhow, I'm reasonably flexible but I don't necessarily need to climb to Master Rank yet, I just want to win at least as often as I lose. As well as general pointers about threats (or articles about threats), I'd like help building a team around my Gholdengo. I can trade for berries to re-EV it if necessary.
    A couple of team-building preferences:
    • I prefer to use new Pokémon wherever possible, unless there is truly no alternative (Incineroar, Torkoal, and Kyogre were staples on my SwSh teams but other than that it was always Gen VIII or G-Max Pokémon)
    • [URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y2vVH4jewfGgMz2VK9wTzQV4NEiTtSGRzAC2mLhn_ys/edit#gid=305708039"]My Trade Sheet[/URL] shows what Pokémon I already have access to with HA, 4-6IV etc.
    • I've only got 5 badges, aiming for 6 before the registration cut-off but doubtful. I can't catch Paradox mons but have a full set of the Scarlet ones including Koraidon (who I believe is banned) and a shiny Scream Tail, as well as a couple of Iron Hands (one shiny) and an Iron Valiant.
    • Possibly useful shinies I possess: Pelipper (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD), Dreepy, Corviknight (252 HP, equal Def stats at lv. 100), Dragonair, Sneasel, Sandyghast, Pawmi, Ditto, Goomy, Dunsparce
    • I also have multiple of the Jiseok Garganacl and Victor Palafin so more than happy to use them as a short-cut

    So yeah, let's build me and Skeet Surfin' the Level Gholdengo a team by Thursday 23:59 UTC!
     
    Last edited:
    I can help you with any Pokemon you may not have/train up the ones you do. I may not have the best mind for battle, but I can sure as hell grind out a team for
    someone who does! If you do want my help with anything, just PM me a list of exactly what you need to see on a Pokemon and I'll get it to you ASAP.
     
    Amore said:
    I imagine only Serenity will reply to this, but I'll write it as if there are others!

    I'm going to get into competitive battles again after taking a few months off. I haven't played SV other than to get the minimum LP reward for 1 battle per season, where I messed around walling bottom-ranked Dondozo teams with Lightningrod Pikachu + Storm Drain Gastrodon, and an Imposter Ditto. Not exactly good preparation for Global Challenge II this weekend!

    When I bred my last bunch of Pokémon to tackle the second half of the Paldea map, I EV'd them using Smogon sets too a) because removing EVs is so needlessly annoying in SV and b) I had tons of Vitamins from 7-star raids. So I have the following ready to go:
    • Mankey - 252 HP / 196 Atk / 12 Def / 30 SpD / 20 Spe
    • Wattrel - 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spe
    • Cetoddle - 6 HP / 252 Atk / 76 Def / 176 Spe
    • Tinkatink - 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 SpD
    • Gimmighoul - 196 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 52 Spe

    I really want to use the last one of those, I already have 999 coins I'm just appreciating my little chest of joy (caught in one throw in a Level ball, Modest, with near-perfect HP, SpA, and Spe and only 3 Atk!) as long as I can. I've seen that in Smogon's VGC Series 1 strategies they recommend Kilowattrel as a teammate for Gholdengo, providing Tailwind support. However, there is no set for Series 2 onwards so perhaps the Paradox Pokémon have rendered it irrelevant?

    Anyhow, I'm reasonably flexible but I don't necessarily need to climb to Master Rank yet, I just want to win at least as often as I lose. As well as general pointers about threats (or articles about threats), I'd like help building a team around my Gholdengo. I can trade for berries to re-EV it if necessary.
    A couple of team-building preferences:
    • I prefer to use new Pokémon wherever possible, unless there is truly no alternative (Incineroar, Torkoal, and Kyogre were staples on my SwSh teams but other than that it was always Gen VIII or G-Max Pokémon)
    • [URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y2vVH4jewfGgMz2VK9wTzQV4NEiTtSGRzAC2mLhn_ys/edit#gid=305708039"]My Trade Sheet[/URL] shows what Pokémon I already have access to with HA, 4-6IV etc.
    • I've only got 5 badges, aiming for 6 before the registration cut-off but doubtful. I can't catch Paradox mons but have a full set of the Scarlet ones including Koraidon (who I believe is banned) and a shiny Scream Tail, as well as a couple of Iron Hands (one shiny) and an Iron Valiant.
    • Possibly useful shinies I possess: Pelipper (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD), Dreepy, Corviknight (252 HP, equal Def stats at lv. 100), Dragonair, Sneasel, Sandyghast, Pawmi, Ditto, Goomy, Dunsparce
    • I also have multiple of the Jiseok Garganacl and Victor Palafin so more than happy to use them as a short-cut

    So yeah, let's build me and Skeet Surfin' the Level Gholdengo a team by Thursday 23:59 UTC!
    Click to expand...

    You're right. Serenity seems to be one of the few competitive players left on this forum. 😊 I'm definitely excited about the official competitions coming up.

    As for the Pokémon you have ready, are you putting those Pokémon on the same team or are they just a list you are considering to use? If they're a team, note that you already have three Fire-type weaknesses. As for Gholdengo, it's actually the legendary Pokémon that dropped Gholdengo's usage rate, for the most part at least. They are all Dark-type and Gholdengo is part Ghost-type, which it is weak to. Not only that, but the legendary Pokémon have the ability to lower certain stats depending on the Pokémon without actually working as a stat decrease, you know, similar to how moves like Growl and Leer work. This makes Gholdengo more challenging to use against them. If you know my style of play, I'm all in favor of people attempting to win with their favorites. However, I'll be honest: in this series, Gholdengo is going to need all the help it can get if it wants to do well. It has to contend with Pokémon like Flutter Mane that outspeed it, especially with its ability activated, Chi-Yu that has two complete type advantages against it as well as outspeeds it, Fire Tera Amoonguss that completely walls it, Ting-Lu that not only tanks it, but also has a perfect type matchup against it, Arcanine that beats it easily, and so on.

    That doesn't mean Gholdengo can't be used, as many players still use it. If you do use it, Talonflame is perhaps a better partner for it because, with the existence of Paradox Pokémon, you are likely to have some Pokémon your team that rely on the sun. Personally, I would run Gholdengo with a Pokémon that has the Prankster ability, namely Grimmsnarl. I would use Prankster Thunder Wave to paralyze faster Pokémon with priority, allowing it to attack first. I would then protect it with screens (Reflect/Light Screen) to allow it to set up safely. Talonflame also has Gale Wings, which give Tailwind priority at full health. Also, a Fire/Flying type Pokémon is better equipped at taking down the metagame than an Electric/Flying right now. Fire-types make for better matchups against the Treasures of Ruin and other common Pokémon like Amoonguss, Brute Bonnet, Tera Grass Arcanine, Gholdengo, and so on. Offensively, Kilowattrel isn't doing much against Pokémon like Great Tusk, Ting-Lu, Dragonite, Treasures of Ruin, and so on. By the way, when I tried clicking your trade sheet, nothing happened. Of the shinies, your Dragonair seems to be the most useful. Tera Normal Dragonite with Extreme Speed is very popular in the meta because it is very strong, especially after Dragon Dancing.

    Those are some suggestions. I wasn't sure if you wanted a team built for you from scratch, but I went ahead and built a team for you. I'm quite sure Alex can help you with whatever you don't have, and I can do the same too. I'll try my best. Just click the "spoiler" button below to see the team I made for you.
     
    Last edited:
    Amore said:
    So yeah, let's build me and Skeet Surfin' the Level Gholdengo a team by Thursday 23:59 UTC!
    Click to expand...

    Spoiler:


    This team definitely should help you take on the metagame.
     
    Sweet Serenity said:
    You're right. Serenity seems to be one of the few competitive players left on this forum. 😊 I'm definitely excited about the official competitions coming up.

    As for the Pokémon you have ready, are you putting those Pokémon on the same team or are they just a list you are considering to use? If they're a team, note that you already have three Fire-type weaknesses.
    Click to expand...
    No, they're literally just the ones I presently have EV'd but not set up for raids, which is also my current in-game team.
    Sweet Serenity said:
    As for Gholdengo, it's actually the legendary Pokémon that dropped Gholdengo's usage rate, for the most part at least. They are all Dark-type and Gholdengo is part Ghost-type, which it is weak to. Not only that, but the legendary Pokémon have the ability to lower certain stats depending on the Pokémon without actually working as a stat decrease, you know, similar to how moves like Growl and Leer work. This makes Gholdengo more challenging to use against them. If you know my style of play, I'm all in favor of people attempting to win with their favorites. However, I'll be honest: in this series, Gholdengo is going to need all the help it can get if it wants to do well. It has to contend with Pokémon like Flutter Mane that outspeed it, especially with its ability activated, Chi-Yu that has two complete type advantages against it as well as outspeeds it, Fire Tera Amoonguss that completely walls it, Ting-Lu that not only tanks it, but also has a perfect type matchup against it, Arcanine that beats it easily, and so on.

    That doesn't mean Gholdengo can't be used, as many players still use it. If you do use it, Talonflame is perhaps a better partner for it because, with the existence of Paradox Pokémon, you are likely to have some Pokémon your team that rely on the sun. Personally, I would run Gholdengo with a Pokémon that has the Prankster ability, namely Grimmsnarl. I would use Prankster Thunder Wave to paralyze faster Pokémon with priority, allowing it to attack first. I would then protect it with screens (Reflect/Light Screen) to allow it to set up safely. Talonflame also has Gale Wings, which give Tailwind priority at full health. Also, a Fire/Flying type Pokémon is better equipped at taking down the metagame than an Electric/Flying right now. Fire-types make for better matchups against the Treasures of Ruin and other common Pokémon like Amoonguss, Brute Bonnet, Tera Grass Arcanine, Gholdengo, and so on. Offensively, Kilowattrel isn't doing much against Pokémon like Great Tusk, Ting-Lu, Dragonite, Treasures of Ruin, and so on. By the way, when I tried clicking your trade sheet, nothing happened. Of the shinies, your Dragonair seems to be the most useful. Tera Normal Dragonite with Extreme Speed is very popular in the meta because it is very strong, especially after Dragon Dancing.
    Click to expand...
    So…the Treasures Ruined the Kilowattrel and Gholdengo party…annoying. Was excited about the first non-legendary Electric-Flying type since Emolga actually being viable. Interesting that I never knew what Gale Wings was, never bothered to look at a summary of that species. Trade Sheet broke, made a new one, should probably go fix my signature

    Sweet Serenity said:
    Spoiler:


    This team definitely should help you take on the metagame.
    Click to expand...

    Well, you definitely understood the assignment - that's 3 Gen 9 'mons, a personal favourite, a bird, and Amoonguss! I guess I'll have to learn what those legendaries look like now, so I can actually use Team Preview haha

    Disappointing that Kilowattrel is apparently so outgunned now, I figure Competitive would make it actually do damage due to Intimidate leads.
    A few questions:
    • Would you generally try to lead with Talonflame unless it looks completely out-matched, in order to get Tailwind up? With Gholdengo out there to start wreaking havoc? Or keep one or both of them in reserve?
    • In SwSh although I listed 6 Pokémon, I really only ever used 5 unless I faced a really unbalanced team that my 6th would destroy, and had a preferred 4. I don't know if you're similar? If so, which 4 out of this would you generally expect to use the most?
    • You say Talonflame's Fire-typing can take down all those Pokémon, yet give it Brave Bird?
    • If I did wed myself to Kilowattrel, how much of the above team would you tear up and start again with?
    • I see a lot of complaining on Reddit about stall. How bad is it right now?
     
    Last edited:
    Amore said:
    No, they're literally just the ones I presently have EV'd but not set up for raids, which is also my current in-game team.

    So…the Treasures Ruined the Kilowattrel and Gholdengo party…annoying. Was excited about the first non-legendary Electric-Flying type since Emolga actually being viable. Interesting that I never knew what Gale Wings was, never bothered to look at a summary of that species. Trade Sheet broke, made a new one, should probably go fix my signature
    Click to expand...

    That's a funny way to put it. You can say that Treasures of Ruin literally ruined the treasure since Gholdengo is made of gold. lol Either way, yes, their impact made a big difference on the VGC scene. It's disappointing too. I love Kilowattrell too. It's such a cool Pokémon. It reminds me of Zapdos a lot, one of my all-time favorites. About Gale Wings, the funny thing is that it was much better in gen 6 before it was nerfed. Back then, Talonflame didn't need to be a full-health to get priority for Flying-type moves. Back then, it was just spamming Brave Birds and Tailwinds non-stop going first.

    "Would you generally try to lead with Talonflame unless it looks completely out-matched, in order to get Tailwind up? With Gholdengo out there to start wreaking havoc? Or keep one or both of them in reserve?"

    It depends on the situation at hand, but yes, this is what I would attempt if possible. The thing about this team though is that you can lead with many things. Nonetheless, yes, Tailwind to increase the Speed for Gholdengo is a good option. It also works for Flutter Mane too and Dragonite. You can also lead with Amoonguss as well if you need redirection and/or Spore. It really depends on what you're facing, but this team should definitely cover most things without having too many exploitable weaknesses.

    "In SwSh although I listed 6 Pokémon, I really only ever used 5 unless I faced a really unbalanced team that my 6th would destroy, and had a preferred 4. I don't know if you're similar? If so, which 4 out of this would you generally expect to use the most?"

    Very similar. lol A lot of times when I used teams other than my Trick Room teams, I mostly can just think of five good ones to use a team. However, I never went into a battle with only five. In those situations, I just added a Ditto. lol Ditto was the perfect revenge killer in Sword and Shield and could fit on almost any team. lol

    "You say Talonflame's Fire-typing can take down all those Pokémon, yet give it Brave Bird?"

    Yeah, I actually had Flare Blitz up there too, but I replaced it with Taunt just in case others try to set up on you. Flare Blitz can fit in there in its place. I just did that to make the Talonflame for supportive, but you can definitely go more aggressive and on the attack with Flare Blitz.

    "If I did wed myself to Kilowattrel, how much of the above team would you tear up and start again with?"

    I'm honestly not really sure how Kilowatrell would fit in this team, especially if it's just a Tailwind setter. Competitive is a fun Ability, but the thing about it is that it is too situational. You have to rely on your stats being lowered for it to work. The thing about the Treasures of Ruin's Abilities is that they don't lower your stats, so to speak, but rather "weaken" them, if that makes sense. Like, when they are called into battle, they don't work like Intimidate. It's more of a game-state modifier than a Pokémon modifier. That's the best way I can explain it. Arcanine and Gyarados will be the main Pokémon using Intimidate. Kilowattrell is really good against Gyarados, but not really against Arcanine. For it to work, you might have to do something completely unorthodox, such as use it in a Rain team with Thunder and Hurricane as its go-to moves, make its Tera Type Water, and teach it Weather Ball. It would at least be able to take on Arcanine, Chi-Yu, Ting-Lu, Glimmora, Great Tusk, Talonflame, and so on if you did that. If you do that, you can probably remove Dragonite for Pelipper and replace Talonflame for Kilowattrell. The change would indeed help Palafin and it could potentially counter the sun your opponent might have set. The thing is, with online competitions, you can't change your team once you've registered. It's not like normal ranked battles, where you can change your team any time it's not working out. Again, it's all up to you. lol

    "I see a lot of bitching on Reddit about stall. How bad is it right now?"

    Yeah, Pokémon like Ting-Lu, Iron Hands, Dodonzo, and so on tend to stall, mainly because of their bulk. However, you can take down Ting-Lu with Hero Palafin, Flutter Mane can handle Iron Hands, and while Dodonzo is annoying to face, when its stats are reset by Clear Smog, it's pretty much a sitting duck, especially after putting it to sleep with Spore. Other than that, I wouldn't call VGC format that stall heavy. Singles, on the other hand, is very stall heavy right now.
     
    Sweet Serenity said:
    That's a funny way to put it. You can say that Treasures of Ruin literally ruined the treasure since Gholdengo is made of gold. lol
    Click to expand...

    Yeah I think I was going for a pun when I started typing maybe 1 hour before I posted but yours is better haha

    Sweet Serenity said:
    "In SwSh although I listed 6 Pokémon, I really only ever used 5 unless I faced a really unbalanced team that my 6th would destroy, and had a preferred 4. I don't know if you're similar? If so, which 4 out of this would you generally expect to use the most?"

    Very similar. lol A lot of times when I used teams other than my Trick Room teams, I mostly can just think of five good ones to use a team. However, I never went into a battle with only five. In those situations, I just added a Ditto. lol Ditto was the perfect revenge killer in Sword and Shield and could fit on almost any team. lol
    Click to expand...

    I've used DItto in my few ranked battles in SV, as part of my informal "delay and chip until Pikachu can finish them" team: Pika, Gastro, Garganacl, and Ditto. Its pretty fun not knowing what you'll get (and my being ignorant of meta, and so low ranked, meaning that I don't necessarily even glean anything useful from knowing the opponent's moveset.

    Sweet Serenity said:
    "If I did wed myself to Kilowattrel, how much of the above team would you tear up and start again with?"

    I'm honestly not really sure how Kilowatrell would fit in this team, especially if it's just a Tailwind setter. Competitive is a fun Ability, but the thing about it is that it is too situational. Arcanine and Gyarados will be the main Pokémon using Intimidate. Kilowattrell is really good against Gyarados, but not really against Arcanine. For it to work, you might have to do something completely unorthodox, such as use it in a Rain team with Thunder and Hurricane as its go-to moves, make its Tera Type Water, and teach it Weather Ball. It would at least be able to take on Arcanine, Chi-Yu, Ting-Lu, Glimmora, Great Tusk, Talonflame, and so on if you did that. If you do that, you can probably remove Dragonite for Pelipper and replace Talonflame for Kilowattrell. The change would indeed help Palafin and it could potentially counter the sun your opponent might have set. The thing is, with online competitions, you can't change your team once you've registered. It's not like normal ranked battles, where you can change your team any time it's not working out. Again, it's all up to you. lol
    Click to expand...

    Ah I see, I kinda figured there would be more Intimidate (neat that Arcanine is meta nearly 30 years in though!). I suppose if Incineroar makes a comeback before Zapdos then it might have a use. I don't think I'd use Tera if I made a rain team though. Save that for a sweeper. Plus, that would just add another Electric weakness alongside Pelipper. I also briefly thought "well hang on, they're probably both getting KO'd turn 2 and Kilowattrel is faster"…it's not. Talonflame takes it by a point lol

    I think I am going to stick with a balanced team, yours seems decent enough that it'll help me learn the Meta. The only potential changes I might make would be abandoning Talonflame and going with Murkrow as Haze could reset the SpA drops on Gholdengo. Given the registration deadline of Thursday this also means I don't have to overlevel my Wattrel out of viability for the last part of the map (Gimmighoul is lv. 50 all the others I listed are still in the 20s).

    One more curiousity - all the Smogon sets seem to run a lot more bulk than your sets
     
    Well, I got the team built in time! Much gratitude to Alex for grabbing me a 0 Atk Flutter Mane, at least 5 items, and multiple Tera changes.

    Figured I'd fire up Ranked Battles for an hour before the beginning, start to get my eye in…you can't use your team. Its absurd. I get why they wouldn't want you to be able to alter it, but if its registered and locked, according to the same ruleset as Ranked, why wouldn't you be able to use it?
     
    Amore said:
    Well, I got the team built in time! Much gratitude to Alex for grabbing me a 0 Atk Flutter Mane, at least 5 items, and multiple Tera changes.
    Click to expand...

    [PokeCommunity.com] Building a Competitive Team (VGC Doubles)


    Amore said:
    Figured I'd fire up Ranked Battles for an hour before the beginning, start to get my eye in…you can't use your team. Its absurd. I get why they wouldn't want you to be able to alter it, but if its registered and locked, according to the same ruleset as Ranked, why wouldn't you be able to use it?
    Click to expand...

    Now that's just ridiculous.
     
    Well, I've done my 15 (16 actually) battles! 9 Wins, a Win that didn't count due to a disconnect (2nd time this has happened to me in SV - I get the notification that clearly means the other player disconnected rather than bailing, then it says I've lost Communication, yet I don't have to reconnect to continue, the battle just doesn't count) and 6 Losses. Finished at Rankt 3178

    Some notes on the battles below:
    Spoiler:


    I deviated from Serenity's suggestions a touch - mainly on EV spreads:
    • Gholdengo "[URL="https://youtu.be/8WFHnHYmmsY"]Skeet Surfin[/URL]" - kept Smogon's 196 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 52 Spe
    • Talonflame "Taxi Mordor" - again kept Smogon's 204 HP / 20 atk / 4 Def / 30 SpD / 252 Spe. Tera Flying as I'm running Brave Bird (plus a lot more Water out there than Rock / Electric). Happy with it, it takes quite a few un-boosted hits although I could choose better with my moves other than Tailwind. Maybe could do with doing more damage to Amoonguss, but the shroom hasn't caused me too many problems yet.
    • Flutter Mane (couldn't think of a nickname in time) - chose Dazzling Gleam. Happy with it, I often Tera and its insanely powerful.
    • Palafin "Pal-El" - Chose Tera Fighting, Smogon's 252 HP / 236 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 14 Spe. I think I chose wrong in both occasions. I can't see how the extra point each in defences will help, although it has proved very bulky with Bulk Up. Tera Water probably more useful as other than that Chi-Yu's Tera Blast I've only seen Grass as a hat on Arcanine.
    • Dragonite "Fírnen" - 212 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 40 Spe. Happy with this choice. I often don't pick it due to fear of being up against Flutter Mane without time to DD, or falling prey to Iron Bundle's speed control. But it performs well, Multiscale plus the HP investment means the first hit barely counts. Considering Leftovers. Only had 3 Spe so I thought about switching out DD and using it in Trick Room, but figured I can breed a 0 Spe one. Still, speed control hasn't been necessary in 13/16 battles (I lost the only one I didn't bring it to but needed it, that Chi-Yu Tera Blast).
    • Amoonguss "Subbuteo" - Kept all recommendations except 0 Atk IV. Its 31, I was in a rush hatched a 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 28 Egg and Hyper Trained its Speed. Is brilliant!

    Still don't know my best team. One strategy I like is leading with Pal-El and Subbuteo, then dropping a Rage Powder to switch in Skeet Surfin' or Flutter Mane. I tend not to use Taxi Mordor for speed control there, and a couple of times I have felt like I would've needed it. But didn't like the idea of relying on only 2 heavy hitters.
    They're maybe not Meta, but I have noticed I don't have any way of hitting bulky Waters, which seems an oversight. I lost to a Dondozo in the Rain and I doubt Kilowattrel's Thunder is doing much at +2 SpD, but I did think of it. Gholdengo's +2 Shadow Ball couldn't OHKO an Azumarill I encountered either. Palafin isn't too much of an issue as I can get in a slug-fest with my own, which won 2 such fights through a Burn thanks to Bulk Up and Drain Punch. But it wouldn't be able to compete with Dondozo's Unaware power, and fears Play Rough from Azu if it has to Tera.
     
    Amore said:
    Well, I've done my 15 (16 actually) battles! 9 Wins, a Win that didn't count due to a disconnect (2nd time this has happened to me in SV - I get the notification that clearly means the other player disconnected rather than bailing, then it says I've lost Communication, yet I don't have to reconnect to continue, the battle just doesn't count) and 6 Losses. Finished at Rankt 3178

    Some notes on the battles below:
    Spoiler:


    I deviated from Serenity's suggestions a touch - mainly on EV spreads:
    • Gholdengo "[URL="https://youtu.be/8WFHnHYmmsY"]Skeet Surfin[/URL]" - kept Smogon's 196 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 52 Spe
    • Talonflame "Taxi Mordor" - again kept Smogon's 204 HP / 20 atk / 4 Def / 30 SpD / 252 Spe. Tera Flying as I'm running Brave Bird (plus a lot more Water out there than Rock / Electric). Happy with it, it takes quite a few un-boosted hits although I could choose better with my moves other than Tailwind. Maybe could do with doing more damage to Amoonguss, but the shroom hasn't caused me too many problems yet.
    • Flutter Mane (couldn't think of a nickname in time) - chose Dazzling Gleam. Happy with it, I often Tera and its insanely powerful.
    • Palafin "Pal-El" - Chose Tera Fighting, Smogon's 252 HP / 236 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 14 Spe. I think I chose wrong in both occasions. I can't see how the extra point each in defences will help, although it has proved very bulky with Bulk Up. Tera Water probably more useful as other than that Chi-Yu's Tera Blast I've only seen Grass as a hat on Arcanine.
    • Dragonite "Fírnen" - 212 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 40 Spe. Happy with this choice. I often don't pick it due to fear of being up against Flutter Mane without time to DD, or falling prey to Iron Bundle's speed control. But it performs well, Multiscale plus the HP investment means the first hit barely counts. Considering Leftovers. Only had 3 Spe so I thought about switching out DD and using it in Trick Room, but figured I can breed a 0 Spe one. Still, speed control hasn't been necessary in 13/16 battles (I lost the only one I didn't bring it to but needed it, that Chi-Yu Tera Blast).
    • Amoonguss "Subbuteo" - Kept all recommendations except 0 Atk IV. Its 31, I was in a rush hatched a 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 28 Egg and Hyper Trained its Speed. Is brilliant!

    Still don't know my best team. One strategy I like is leading with Pal-El and Subbuteo, then dropping a Rage Powder to switch in Skeet Surfin' or Flutter Mane. I tend not to use Taxi Mordor for speed control there, and a couple of times I have felt like I would've needed it. But didn't like the idea of relying on only 2 heavy hitters.
    They're maybe not Meta, but I have noticed I don't have any way of hitting bulky Waters, which seems an oversight. I lost to a Dondozo in the Rain and I doubt Kilowattrel's Thunder is doing much at +2 SpD, but I did think of it. Gholdengo's +2 Shadow Ball couldn't OHKO an Azumarill I encountered either. Palafin isn't too much of an issue as I can get in a slug-fest with my own, which won 2 such fights through a Burn thanks to Bulk Up and Drain Punch. But it wouldn't be able to compete with Dondozo's Unaware power, and fears Play Rough from Azu if it has to Tera.
    Click to expand...
     
    Amore said:
    Well, I've done my 15 (16 actually) battles! 9 Wins, a Win that didn't count due to a disconnect (2nd time this has happened to me in SV - I get the notification that clearly means the other player disconnected rather than bailing, then it says I've lost Communication, yet I don't have to reconnect to continue, the battle just doesn't count) and 6 Losses. Finished at Rankt 3178
    Click to expand...

    I think the site is glitched or something. Whenever I try to quote a post with a lot of words, it gets messed up. Thus, you might see two replies here.

    You won exactly 62% of your battles. That's pretty good. 😊 By the way, when your opponent ragequits, that's a win, point blank period regardless of what the results on screen show. The thing is, sometimes, players know how to cheat in a way where they can disconnect and make the win not count. This was a problem on Sword and Shield and is a problem in Scarlet and Violet too. In fact, sometimes, players can somehow force hard crashes too. I made a thread about this a while ago. The thing about Smogon though, is that I don't believe that they really handle Doubles too well. Smogon appears to be primarily a resource for Singles. That's why I usually think of my own EV spreads for Doubles, mainly depending on how I want to use my team. Nonetheless, if you found success with Smogon's suggestions, then that's a great thing! I'm proud of you. EV spreads are such a huge difference-maker, which is the beauty of competitive Pokémon, in my opinion. I'm happy that you actually used the team that I built for you and that you won the majority of your battles with it. I tried my best with the team, by the way. I took notes regarding the meta by taking into account the most common threats in the meta and attempted to build a team around the Pokémon you wanted the most, Gholdengo. I didn't really take Dondozo into consideration, mainly because it wasn't too high on the usage list like it used to be, but maybe I should have. I was more worried about Treasures of Ruin, to be honest. The thing is, I have my own personal way of dealing with Dondozo, which is to use Amoonguss to hit it with Clear Smog to reset its stats and then put it to sleep with Spore. When it is sleeping without its stat boosts, it is mainly alone on the field as a sitting duck. As for Azumarill, I don't think it was even on the list. Then again, that's something else to consider when going against the metagame, in which not every player would be running the popular stuff. I, of all people, should know that because I hardly ever use the meta myself.
     
    Sweet Serenity said:
    I think the site is glitched or something. Whenever I try to quote a post with a lot of words, it gets messed up. Thus, you might see two replies here.
    Click to expand...

    It appears to have escaped from PMs and is now running wild!

    Sweet Serenity said:
    You won exactly 62% of your battles. That's pretty good. 😊 By the way, when your opponent ragequits, that's a win, point blank period regardless of what the results on screen show. The thing is, sometimes, players know how to cheat in a way where they can disconnect and make the win not count. This was a problem on Sword and Shield and is a problem in Scarlet and Violet too. In fact, sometimes, players can somehow force hard crashes too. I made a thread about this a while ago.
    Click to expand...

    Glad to know I'm not going crazy. At least its in a mini-tournament, rather than the last battle before Master Rank or something.

    Sweet Serenity said:
    The thing about Smogon though, is that I don't believe that they really handle Doubles too well. Smogon appears to be primarily a resource for Singles. That's why I usually think of my own EV spreads for Doubles, mainly depending on how I want to use my team. Nonetheless, if you found success with Smogon's suggestions, then that's a great thing! I'm proud of you. EV spreads are such a huge difference-maker, which is the beauty of competitive Pokémon, in my opinion. I'm happy that you actually used the team that I built for you and that you won the majority of your battles with it. I tried my best with the team, by the way. I took notes regarding the meta by taking into account the most common threats in the meta and attempted to build a team around the Pokémon you wanted the most, Gholdengo. I didn't really take Dondozo into consideration, mainly because it wasn't too high on the usage list like it used to be, but maybe I should have. I was more worried about Treasures of Ruin, to be honest. The thing is, I have my own personal way of dealing with Dondozo, which is to use Amoonguss to hit it with Clear Smog to reset its stats and then put it to sleep with Spore. When it is sleeping without its stat boosts, it is mainly alone on the field as a sitting duck. As for Azumarill, I don't think it was even on the list. Then again, that's something else to consider when going against the metagame, in which not every player would be running the popular stuff. I, of all people, should know that because I hardly ever use the meta myself.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah, I've definitely noticed with the constantly evolving VGC format they can't keep up. They don't even have dedicated threads in their forums. I dunno if I should be looking on Reddit or elsewhere to talk about it. I found towards the end of SwSh that I do like their bulkier sets though, things like not running 252 Atk / 252 Spe Zacian because it was too fragile once all the legends came back were helpful (also I spent the last series running Magearna Trick Room where everything was bulky).
    It was a well thought-out team! I didn't pack Amoonguss in that Dondozo battle for…some reason. I think I didn't spot the Tatsugiri and figured I could just Bulk Up against it. That was actually the only one I've seen, but I imagine when I get into Ranked proper I'll see some more, at least at Poké and Great tiers. Amoonguss is probably the best counter for Azumarill. IIRC I used Spore on it, but Amoonguss was taken off the field by Arcanine by the time it woke up and I hadn't realised it would tank the hit for Gholdengo. So I definitely have a way around it. They were the only ones where I really went "well, this is a problematic opponent" rather than "I should have acted differently". Plus the nature of this tournament means it'll draw in a slightly different player base, which sees more variation. The team I faced in my official 14th battle was bizarre, I don't think they had a sweeper - Gyarados' Ice Fang was super weak.

    How have you done in the tournament so far?
     
    Amore said:
    .
    Click to expand...

    Smogon is really a great place for competitive Pokémon, but I really do wish they gave Doubles more attention, especially considering that the VGC is Doubles format. Bulkier sets are pretty good though, especially in Doubles. However, personally, I prefer to rely on sleep using Spore, redirection with moves such as Follow Me and Rage Powder, and setting screens such as Reflect and Light Screen to make up for the lack of bulk. I prefer my sweepers to hit hard as possible. As for that last one with the Gyarados, I'm not sure what that player was thinking. Me personally, I prefer to run my Gyarados with Dragon Dance, Outrage, and Waterfall with Dragon Tera and a Lum Berry.

    As for how I'd done thus far, I haven't started yet, but I'm going to start tonight. I was busy for much of the day, but I have time now.
     
    Today was…worse. W7 L8, final rank 5230 or 5320 idk

    Highlights:
    - Beat a Rank Master team (Dragonite, Chien Pao, Great Tusk, Flutter Mane). By which I mean they quit at 3-on-1.
    - Finally faced a Maushold! It did as promised and KO'd itself using Population Bomb on Amoonguss (that battle was won by Rocky Helmet - a burned Ape using Drain Punch did more damage to itself from RH than it could recover)
    - 1st battle of the day quit at 4-on-2, last quit at 4-on-3! Chien-Pao leads versus Gholdengo and Talonflame both times, so just set up as the other 'mon wasn't a threat.
    - 4-0 win where Gholdengo killed the entire team with Make It Rain
    - Sequence was WLLLWLLLWWWLLWW. Very streaky!
    - Lost to a Murkrow team as Taunt doesn't get priority from Gale Wings.
    - Realised that with this bulkier Talonflame - who is generally great, its really helpful that he can survive Flutter Mane's +1 Shadow Ball and hit back - I have no way of really taking down opposing Amoonguss without stacking the boosts on Gholdengo, or inflicting Burn
    - Starting to realise generally I'm best-off with Gholdengo, both supports, and Palafin / Flutter Mane. Dragonite doesn't get much play due to the abundance of Ghosts.
    - This isn't meta. So much randomness, reminds me of in SwSh where I struggled to break into the last stage of Great Ball tier but actually felt more confident beyond that, as variations decreased. I lost to a Bellibolt at one point!
     
    …and finally, even worse. W4 L11. Rank 28670

    - Garganacl seems like a direct insult to whoever design Gholdengo. Like "Congrats, your 1,000th Pokémon is pretty awesome! Here's one with a signature ability that is the same but with an added resistance to its STAB, a signature move that inflicts extra chip damage on its other typing, and a better stat distribution. Oh and it gets a priority move that shuts down Gholdengo's signature move"
    - Screw stall. Took like 20 minutes to lose to a guy who had bulky Gyarados using T-Wave and Whirlpool, Wo-Chien (Leech Seed), Ting-Lu (Sand Tomb), and Glimmora.
    - I do like the sheer variety of team options made available by the Tera gimmick. My last match of the day I got wiped out by Rain Dance + Tera Blast Tera-Water Magnezone.
    - A couple of Ls were because I forgot when you press 'B' on a move, you have to re-press 'R' to Tera agin.
    - I kept forgetting that Taunt didn't have priority, or that rival Pokémon even had Prankster (Klefki, although I managed to beat it despite getting both screens up).
    - One point of pride - faced a gimmick 'yellow' team: Pika + Shiny Dondozo lead, Shiny Lucario, and Shiny Flamigo. Wiped it out with only 1 casualty. Pride because I remember from my Gen IV shoddybattle days that gimmicks like that were basically a flex, so at least I showed I wasn't incompetent.

    Final record: W21 L25

    I do think I'll persevere with this team, just to help get more familiar with the meta (assuming there actually is one when I go for Ranked once my team unlocks). Might need to look at a couple of changes.
    - Although Talonflame did some damage against the Klefki team because they had Meowscarada and T-Grass Ceruledge (which couldn't be hit with Fire), I often found myself wanting to hit something with T-Steel and having to switch. Then again, Flare Blitz won't get priority. I did like the bulky set I used though, it kept surviving weak priority that my opponent obviously expected it wouldn't, and throwing out an extra burn.
    - Quite a few times Palafin ended up getting hit with Will-o-Wisp. About half, I was actually able to Bulk Up out of it, but I think a Lum Berry might be better than Life Orb. Especially how I use it, I want more longevity and Life Orb undoing the Drain Punch recovery hurts that. Or maybe T-Grass and Leftovers, freeing up a Lum Berry on Dragonite.
     
    Amore said:
    …and finally, even worse. W4 L11. Rank 28670

    - Garganacl seems like a direct insult to whoever design Gholdengo. Like "Congrats, your 1,000th Pokémon is pretty awesome! Here's one with a signature ability that is the same but with an added resistance to its STAB, a signature move that inflicts extra chip damage on its other typing, and a better stat distribution. Oh and it gets a priority move that shuts down Gholdengo's signature move"
    - Screw stall. Took like 20 minutes to lose to a guy who had bulky Gyarados using T-Wave and Whirlpool, Wo-Chien (Leech Seed), Ting-Lu (Sand Tomb), and Glimmora.
    - I do like the sheer variety of team options made available by the Tera gimmick. My last match of the day I got wiped out by Rain Dance + Tera Blast Tera-Water Magnezone.
    - A couple of Ls were because I forgot when you press 'B' on a move, you have to re-press 'R' to Tera agin.
    - I kept forgetting that Taunt didn't have priority, or that rival Pokémon even had Prankster (Klefki, although I managed to beat it despite getting both screens up).
    - One point of pride - faced a gimmick 'yellow' team: Pika + Shiny Dondozo lead, Shiny Lucario, and Shiny Flamigo. Wiped it out with only 1 casualty. Pride because I remember from my Gen IV shoddybattle days that gimmicks like that were basically a flex, so at least I showed I wasn't incompetent.

    Final record: W21 L25

    I do think I'll persevere with this team, just to help get more familiar with the meta (assuming there actually is one when I go for Ranked once my team unlocks). Might need to look at a couple of changes.
    - Although Talonflame did some damage against the Klefki team because they had Meowscarada and T-Grass Ceruledge (which couldn't be hit with Fire), I often found myself wanting to hit something with T-Steel and having to switch. Then again, Flare Blitz won't get priority. I did like the bulky set I used though, it kept surviving weak priority that my opponent obviously expected it wouldn't, and throwing out an extra burn.
    - Quite a few times Palafin ended up getting hit with Will-o-Wisp. About half, I was actually able to Bulk Up out of it, but I think a Lum Berry might be better than Life Orb. Especially how I use it, I want more longevity and Life Orb undoing the Drain Punch recovery hurts that. Or maybe T-Grass and Leftovers, freeing up a Lum Berry on Dragonite.
    Click to expand...

    Are you taking on ranked battles with the same team?

    As for me, I did pretty bad this time around in the online competition. I didn't tally my wins and losses this time, but I definitely lost more times than I won. The thing is I played using just a team of favorites without even taking notes like I did when building your team. I didn't so well because Treasures of Ruin ruined everything. They made it much more difficult to win. My losses were bad and my wins were hard fought. Either way, I still enjoyed it a lot. Next time, I'm going to build a more serious team for myself though and maybe get some VGC Showdown practice in until then.
     
    Sweet Serenity said:
    Are you taking on ranked battles with the same team?

    As for me, I did pretty bad this time around in the online competition. I didn't tally my wins and losses this time, but I definitely lost more times than I won. The thing is I played using just a team of favorites without even taking notes like I did when building your team. I didn't so well because Treasures of Ruin ruined everything. They made it much more difficult to win. My losses were bad and my wins were hard fought. Either way, I still enjoyed it a lot. Next time, I'm going to build a more serious team for myself though and maybe get some VGC Showdown practice in until then.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah! I already had one win down from my gimmick Pika + Gastro + Ditto team, but I won 4 in a row then lost because an Azumarill used Quick Claw to smash Talonflame with Liquidation before I could burn it. Then back to winning ways with a match where Gholdengo survived a Rage Fist (1 hit power increase) with exactly 1 HP on the first turn, and KO'd the entire opposite team!

    Saw more Dondozo in those 5 battles than in the whole tournament, and I can see why - Clear Smog + Rage Powder makes it complete setup fodder.

    Those treasures truly do ruin everything, those abilities are horrible. Ugly-ass designs too, except Chien-Pao
     
    God I love my Gholdengo!

    Got another one of those annoying PerishTag teams, but beat it as Gholdengo a) is immune to Perish Song and b) my specific Gholdengo, "Skeet Surfin'" can survive a Flare Blitz from your standard Arcanine set at full health! (It also survives Chien-Pao's Sucker Punch, but iirc Flutter Mane's Shadow Ball is too powerful).

    Weirdly by base stats its actually bulkier than Magnezone which going by their designs and reputations you would not think would be the case.
     
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