California teen boycotts Girl scout cookies over inclusion of trans child

[Bluerang1]

Dumb motive. I just don't get how a 7 year old is transgender. Goodness gracious let tem grow a little more -_-

 

[Livewire]

Dumb motive. I just don't get how a 7 year old is transgender. Goodness gracious let tem grow a little more -_-

I doubt that's something someone would voluntarily make up.

 

[doesn't matter]

Article: female-to-male transsexuals have the physical brain of a male

Study: male-to-female transsexuals found to have the size of their BSTc more closely match females than males (Old I know, but these aren't like social statistics in that they change over time)

Another study showing that transsexuals have brains more closely relating to the opposite gender (this is the actual study, so the summary is at the bottom under Discussion where it's easier to understand)

You may not understand transsexualism, but it goes beyond the wish to pretend to be a girl. People who are transsexual honestly are women in men's bodies, or vice versa. It's not something they can control and to force a little boy who claims s/he's transgendered into joining the boy scouts instead of the girl scouts, where s/he wouldn't feel like s/he belonged since s/he feels like a girl, is pretty terrible. To you it may be just 'pretending' and no different from faking being a chicken, but it's not to people that actually understand it.

If the mom is pushing it and the child really doesn't feel that way, it's another matter altogether, something that would certainly be good to investigate because these things happen. But even if this specific case is the case of an overzealous mother (who knows, maybe she assumed transgender because he wore her shoes once, we can't tell from the articles), that doesn't change the point that transgenders should be allowed to join the scout group that they identify with, not be force to align with their biological sex.

Also, feeling fully like you are an animal is called clinical lycanthropy. As of now it has no protections like transgenders, but maybe you should be the ones to fight for them so you can be a chicken whenever you'd like? :P

Yet you still failed to address the biological reality of the presence of the Y chromosome in each and every cell of his. Really, all you've demonstrated is that their brains are wired up differently - doesn't mean that they're a girl though. I do agree though that it is a mental condition ;).

The Girl Scouts were formed for girls in response to their rejection from the boy scouts. It is made for girls only, and I stand by the position that this person, not being a girl, should not be allowed in. They may act like a girl, think like a girl, even look like a girl, but the biological reality is that their sex is male.

Do you really think I would do that? :P Besides, a transracialist is what I am, lol.

 

[Oryx]

Yet you still failed to address the biological reality of the presence of the Y chromosome in each and every cell of his. Really, all you've demonstrated is that their brains are wired up differently - doesn't mean that they're a girl though. I do agree though that it is a mental condition ;).

The Girl Scouts were formed for girls in response to their rejection from the boy scouts. It is made for girls only, and I stand by the position that this person, not being a girl, should not be allowed in. They may act like a girl, think like a girl, even look like a girl, but the biological reality is that their sex is male.

Do you really think I would do that? :P Besides, a transracialist is what I am, lol.

The reason I didn't address that is because it's irrelevant to the situation. The mission of girl scouts is to "build girls of courage, confidence, and character", not to define what a girl is. That's left up to the state, and Colorado defines transgender as protected under anti-discrimination laws, whether or not the person goes through with an operation to give them the "proper parts". In addition, the Girl Scout didn't reject her because of her Y chromosome; they rejected her because she had "boy parts", according to the mother. So the chromosomes don't factor into the Girl Scout's decision, they don't factor into the state's decision, why should they be considered whatsoever? And where does Girl Scouts note that they are specifically referring to the sex "girl" and not the gender "girl"?

Side note: Here's a video of the original story, that a boy who identifies as a girl wanted to join the Girl Scouts and they said no. Bobby (the child in question) does in fact want to join them and was upset when she couldn't, which rules out the theory that the mother was pushing it and the child was uninterested.

As far as transgendered being a "mental condition": it's a mental condition in the same way that your dislike for certain foods is a mental condition. Yes, it's rooted in the brain. Just like everything else, all your thoughts and actions outside of the most basic living reflexes. Yes, it is a mental condition, but not a mental defect.

Another interesting point: it's questionable whether the Boy Scouts would allow Bobby to join at all. They've been known to kick out gay kids and feel that "alternative lifestyles" are a threat to morals and therefore not allowed in the scouts.

I do think that the girl is more than welcome to state her own opinion but I think this backfired on her based on the people that are pledging to buy cookies just because of the action.

 

[Shining Raichu]

Dumb motive. I just don't get how a 7 year old is transgender. Goodness gracious let tem grow a little more -_-

Gender and sexuality are two different things. While it usually takes until at least the early teen years for someone to discover they are gay, bisexual or whatever sexuality they may be, if someone is transgender it is entirely possible that they would know this from a far earlier age. This little girl does not need to "grow a little more" before she is equipped to make this judgment about the way she feels in her own body and mind.

 

[Mr. X]

I doubt that's something someone would voluntarily make up.

When I was 7, I always said I was a robot. Am I? No. You know what that claim was from? A overactive imagination, which almost all young children at that age have.

Still, we have the technology to create a test that can determine if your trans. As Toujours said, Trans have brain differences that ARE findable. Test them. You claim to be Trans? You should be treated like your birth gender until you can give proof that you are trans, instead of just saying "I'm trans and as long as I say it, thats all that matters.'

 

[Shining Raichu]

To be honest, I wouldn't put that theory about you being a robot to sleep quite yet.

Gender is something that is ingrained into us from birth. We know that blue is a boy's colour and pink is a girl's colour; that boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls. The idea of being separate from your physical gender is also something discouraged from birth and those who find themselves to be that way suffer from intense ridicule. So no child is going to "imagine" and publicise the fact that they are not their biological gender unless they truly feel that way. Additionally, there would be behavioural signs apart from the things that they say which would be indicative that they are telling the truth.

This is not something entered into lightly or on a whim, and frankly your ignorance on the subject shines as brightly as the polished metal where your skin should be.

 

[Calipornia]

Forgive me if this is off-topic, but am I the only one disturbed about the trans child?

 

[twocows]

7-year-old transgender child

These exist? My head is full of ****. Jeez.

 

[Esper]

When I was 7, I always said I was a robot. Am I? No. You know what that claim was from? A overactive imagination, which almost all young children at that age have.

Still, we have the technology to create a test that can determine if your trans. As Toujours said, Trans have brain differences that ARE findable. Test them. You claim to be Trans? You should be treated like your birth gender until you can give proof that you are trans, instead of just saying "I'm trans and as long as I say it, thats all that matters.'

So you would say that someone who is trans should have to wait until their family can afford to pay for whatever procedure is supposed to be able to prove that they're trans before they can say that they're trans? I see a lot of problems with this suggestion.

First, there's the technology. Is it reliable? How often does it make mistakes and give false positives? Is it expensive? How many insurance companies cover the cost of the test? Is it readily available in most areas? Is it a painful procedure?

Second, the assumption. This suggestion assumes that either a person can't really know they are trans or that they are likely to make it up. If we switched things around and said that someone who claimed to be gay couldn't be gay until they proved it, would that also be okay? No. When someone knows something like this about themselves we don't say: "Oh, yeah? Prove it." The proof is in the person telling you who they are.

Forgive me if this is off-topic, but am I the only one disturbed about the trans child?

What about this is disturbing you?

 

[Rogue planet]

And to those people who do say this child isn't "truly trans", so what if they aren't? So what if this child is just naive, confused, or whatever other explanation you want to give. Yes, people might change their mind when their older, but what matters is the here and the now. A 7 year old boy says he wants to be a girl, feels like a girl, wants to act like a girl, whatever it is; what harm does that do? What harm is a 7 year old child committing upon anyone? What harm is any transexual, transgender, transanything bringing upon anyone, regardless of their age? The only harm comes from society's prejudice and intolerance.

There's only one thing to be afraid of, and that's people being different/things changing from how they were traditionally. You're just afraid of progress.

"I'm a ****ing unicorn"

 

[Sydian]

A 7 year old boy says he wants to be a girl, feels like a girl, wants to act like a girl, whatever it is; what harm does that do? What harm is a 7 year old child committing upon anyone? What harm is any transexual, transgender, transanything bringing upon anyone, regardless of their age?

This really. Like I said, the kid isn't doing anyone harm. There's no one dying or getting AIDS because this child is in Girl Scouts despite physically being a boy.

To be honest, I wouldn't put that theory about you being a robot to sleep quite yet.

This too, really.

 

[Gamzee]

And another loss for the LGBT community and progression towards equality. Lovely.

Not surprising, of course. What more can you expect from the conservative USA and society this young transgendered is growing up in. It's unfortunate that we do not have the proper education in place to teach the population about transgenderism. It wasn't something I was even aware of until I met a transgendered in real life two years ago.

To close, I'm going to post a quote from a friend of mine on another forum (Zelda Universe) that really sums up the whole transgender issue rather well.

long****ingliberalpost

Gender is a primary way that humans organize their lives. K this is super general and all that but when somebody meets another person, they use certain constructed indicators, most primarily gender/ethnicity/class and in some cases sexuality (there are millions of others) to make guesses and judgments as to how that person should behave, things that person should like, certain standards that person should conform to.

For this reason people that, intentionally or unintentionally, **** with the gender system can cause some major distress for people who have never experienced life narratives that exist outside of the binary. I don't think transphobia is really indicative that a person is terrible or anything. I would say that most (though we cant be sure given people's lack of willingness to readily identify) people have lived their lives and gone about their business under the premise that there is just two genders, and don't know how to treat or act when exposed to anything outside it.

long story short, people aren't sure how to act when they meet a chick with a dick. It's weird and it grosses them out and it's not "right" becuase I mean what the **** is a chick doing with a dick? Do they menstruate? Are they supposed to be naturally good mothers? How does this **** work?!


No but really we should have a better educational system to at least teach our children that biology is not destiny and that gender is complex. In the (admittedly conservative) education system that I've been through, we were never even educated about condoms or sex, let alone LGBT.

 

[Mr. X]

So you would say that someone who is trans should have to wait until their family can afford to pay for whatever procedure is supposed to be able to prove that they're trans before they can say that they're trans? I see a lot of problems with this suggestion.

Ideally it would be covered under insurance. But no, you can say your trans all you want. Until you provide scientific proof that backs up that claim you shouldn't be entitled to special treatment.

First, there's the technology. Is it reliable? How often does it make mistakes and give false positives? Is it expensive? How many insurance companies cover the cost of the test? Is it readily available in most areas? Is it a painful procedure?

It's reliable in testing adult brains, and painless. But then again, children's brains are not fully developed which is really all the more reason why most claims of children shouldn't be taken at face value.

Second, the assumption. This suggestion assumes that either a person can't really know they are trans or that they are likely to make it up. If we switched things around and said that someone who claimed to be gay couldn't be gay until they proved it, would that also be okay? No. When someone knows something like this about themselves we don't say: "Oh, yeah? Prove it." The proof is in the person telling you who they are.

Gays are not saying that they are trapped in the wrong body. They are male, and they like other males.

Still, you ever hear of the joke about the gay guy? I can't remember the joke, just a somewhat butchered version of the punchline but it kinda applies. Heres the punchline. I only said I was gay so you wouldn't care about me closing the door when I bring girls into my room. (Your a adult, so you should hopefully know why the door is closed.)

The punchline is relevant because you say that they know the meaning of their words. If they are smart enough to know the meaning of those particular words, then its very probable that they know what special treatment that those words can garner them.

Also, I am god. According to you, the proof is that I am saying it. Therefor, I am God. Bow down to me. NOW MORTAL!!!

Also, proof in saying? My arm's broke. I said it, according to you its true, but it doesn't matter because no matter what I say, how much I cry out in pain, or the fact that my arm is bent at a weird angle, I'd still have to get a xray to show that it is, in fact, broken.

 

[Calipornia]

What about this is disturbing you?

A better question would be what is not disturbing you with that.
I admit that as a child I wanted to be a girl. More specifically, wanted my own breasts. But I definitely wanted to be a girl. It eventually passed. I suppose it was like that because everyone around me at the time was just girls.

 

[Mr. X]

A better question would be what is not disturbing you with that.
I admit that as a child I wanted to be a girl. More specifically, wanted my own breasts. But I definitely wanted to be a girl. It eventually passed. I suppose it was like that because everyone around me at the time was just girls.

Eat your words Scarf and Shining Raichu. Proof, right here, that some cases ARE just childhood fantasy which the child grows out of when they grow older. And that was my entire point. Some/most cases at that age are just that. Childhood fantasy.

 

[jpp8]

ITT: Trans-erasure.

The difference between transsexuals and the arguments you bring up are that they are different states of mind. Transsexuals are BORN with that state of mind. They truly ARE mismatched in body and mind. Believing that you are a god or a robot are due to CONCEPTS that you have OBSERVED. There's a difference between a child who is all "Mommy! Mommy! I want to be a pretty girl and play with barbies!" then get bored with it and goes back to doing boy things and a child who is truly conflicted in their gender identity.

And your "transsexuals need proof" is showing your cis-privelege. Why should cis-gendered persons be able to not worry others accepting their gender identity, while transsexuals need to be patronized for their gender identity? Don't forget that the T in LGBTQIA exists.


Also, I'm going to picking up a few of those shortbread cookies this year for a change.
>2012
>Not supportive of equal rights for marginalized persons
I seriously hope you guys don't do this.

 

[Mr. X]

And unless you test for it, how can you tell the difference between those born trans and those who just say the words as a result of a over active imagination?

I'm not denying that they exist. I'm just saying that not every boy who says 'I'm a girl." and every girl that says 'I'm a boy." is really trans.

We have enough people getting special treatment based upon lies already. We don't need to accidentally create another group. Good intentions causing the creation? Yes. Still a group of people getting special treatment based upon a lie? Yes.

And on the flip side, Trans are discriminated against. That is just a product of people's feelings, nothing can change that except time. But to subject a person to hatred and discrimination just because of a few words that they said but never understood? No. While trans are the victims in this case, at the very least we CAN act to prevent discrimination against the... well... (for lack of a better term) innocent victims.

 

[Esper]

Alright. It's on like Donkey Kong.

Ideally it would be covered under insurance. But no, you can say your trans all you want. Until you provide scientific proof that backs up that claim you shouldn't be entitled to special treatment.

Trans people are not asking for "special treatment" unless you think that wanting people to accept your gender is special, in which case non-trans people (a.k.a. cisgendered people) should also need to prove they are cisgendered in order to receive this "privilege."

Also, you did not address the issue of cost. Not that I'm expecting you to be an expect or anything - I'm not. Bottom line of this issue is that it's something you'd most likely have to pay for. When you have to pay to have the same rights as someone else that's not right.

It's reliable in testing adult brains, and painless. But then again, children's brains are not fully developed which is really all the more reason why most claims of children shouldn't be taken at face value.

And with trans kids they aren't. When there are kids who say they're a boy or a girl the parents don't just accept it at face value. In this very story you have a parent saying she's still not completely used to the idea and is using the wrong words sometimes. If a kid shows persistently that they're trans through their words and actions that says a lot about what you can trust from them. Kids of who are just playing around will eventually stop, get bored, change their minds, and so on. Others will be persistent.

Gays are not saying that they are trapped in the wrong body. They are male, and they like other males.

The point of the comparison is that you have to rely on a gay person to tell you they are gay to know they are gay. We accept that in the overwhelming majority of cases a person who says they are gay is going to be gay. We should do similar to trans people.

The punchline is relevant because you say that they know the meaning of their words. If they are smart enough to know the meaning of those particular words, then its very probable that they know what special treatment that those words can garner them.

Again, I'm not convinced there is any kind of "special privilege" stuff going on here. Wanting people to treat you as your gender isn't (or shouldn't be) a privilege.

Also, I am god. According to you, the proof is that I am saying it. Therefor, I am God. Bow down to me. NOW MORTAL!!!

Don't be an ass. You know very well what I meant within the context of my post. I don't ask you to prove how you feel about your own self.

A better question would be what is not disturbing you with that.

Nothing is disturbing me. That's why I asked you.

I admit that as a child I wanted to be a girl. More specifically, wanted my own breasts. But I definitely wanted to be a girl. It eventually passed. I suppose it was like that because everyone around me at the time was just girls.

Eat your words Scarf and Shining Raichu. Proof, right here, that some cases ARE just childhood fantasy which the child grows out of when they grow older. And that was my entire point. Some/most cases at that age are just that. Childhood fantasy.

You're then saying that because there could be cases of a kid having an overacting imagination that everyone else has to prove they aren't just imagining it? That puts an undue burden on trans people. Plus, as I've brought up, with trans kids they are going to be persistent in a lot of cases.

If I haven't convinced you I'll just borrow what Vendak said: what harm is there is letting kids who say they're trans act as if they are trans whether they are or not?

 

[-ty-]

Agree 100% with Scarf. Indeed, it's on like DK :)

Testing for any psychological (for lack of a better word) abnormalities, cannot always be done through a quantitative test, like a blood test or MRI.

People who have anxiety, add, adhd, depression, bipolar disorder, any antisocial disorders, or any other psychological in the vast majority of cases are diagnosed by a psychologist/psychiatrist who applies the patient's actions and sentiments to a condition. Diagnosing a patient with anxiety is not fool-proof, but that doesn't mean that medication and therapies should not be provided for the vast majority who do have the condition. Like with diagnosing other psychological conditions, Diagnosing Gender Identity Disorder may vary on the patient's age. There are varying symptoms among different age groups, but that doesn't mean that a child is incapable of having a psychological disorder, and that child should not be left untreated with a mental condition or mental ailment.

With that being said, if a child is diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder, legally, the child should be treated as the gender that the child identifies with after the child's birth certificate is amended. The girl scouts must allow the child to partake in the group or face civil litigation for violating the Americans with Disabilities Act that declares that citizens cannot be discriminated against because of any psychological or cognitive conditions.