Suggestion: Community League

[Fayble]

This is something I've seen pop up on various forums and Pokemon community sites - something I think a lot of people are interested in - but that I've rarely seen get off the ground or be successful. I did an advanced search on these forums and after browsing through a few of the threads, I see this idea isn't foreign to this community... but the ideas are never really well thought out, they have little to no support (from staff or other members, just someone with a dream).

Rather than try to muster support from like-minded individuals, I just wanted to put it out there and pitch it. See if anyone 'higher up' wants to take it and run with it. Understand that I'm just spit balling here and hoping something sticks.

Rather than create a long and cluttered OP, you can read about my PokeCommunity Pokemon League (PCPL) idea from this Google Doc here.

If any members have any questions, or staff have anything to say, let me know and I'll get back to you ASAP. Even if it's just "We tried this already, didn't work".

Thanks!

Edit: To help any newcomers join the discussion... the following things are key points that have been addressed.

1. WiFi vs Showdown - The general consensus is that Showdown would be easier for everyone to access and use. You can find the PC Showdown site here.
2. Smogon OU - Once again, the consensus seems to be to follow Smogon OU rules and tiers. However, it's my understanding that recently things like Mega Gengar and Mega Kengaskhan have been banned for OU. Is it best to follow this, even though their may be some community split on it?
3. Scale - Should we stick to a 1-4-8 ratio for Champ:Elite:Gym Leaders, or should it be altered? Perhaps a 1-2-4 ratio that could grow as the league does?
4. Initial Spots - How should the initial leaders be chosen? By a tournament or staff pick from applicants? If a tournament, how should it be structured to ensure it's the fairest it can be?

 

[Nihilego]

This is so cool. @__@

I love it. I just don't know if we have a sizeable enough battling community to have it run properly, but if we do (wolf / battle regulars?) then I'd really like it. Looks like fun!
edit: for this community, our Showdown server would be preferable to using 3DS consoles so that everyone can join in and so that the server gets more activity.

 

[Nolafus]

This idea has been tried before like you said, but I think the main reason it failed was because it was a wifi league. If something like this is going to take off, it has to be on the showdown server. You know, something that's available to everyone. I don't have wifi at my house, but I would love to be a gym leader, hence why I haven't been a part of any previous league.

I was an online gym leader before for another league, so I know how this works, and it definitely can work. If the interest is there, that is.

 

[wolf]

First off, I like your presentation; it's a lot better than many of the leagues that normally get posted. An official league is certainly a possibility, and I've thought about reviving the idea sometime. However, to make something like this successful would take a lot effort, advertisement, and incentives for participation. Problem is, events and battling groups have always had problems with incentives here at PC. The only things we have to offer are emblems (profile icons) and ideal Pokemon (only possible for Wi-Fi battlers). Regardless, I'll be willing to help out with this, but I'd like to offer some criticism for your concept.

1) Our Wi-Fi battling community is very small and only battles occasionally. Heck, I don't even Wi-Fi battle simply because I don't have the time or patience anymore. By doing this, we would essentially have to build a new Wi-Fi battling community from the ground up. However, the Wi-Fi battlers we do have can be found over at the Trade Corner chatroom, but I don't know if they would be willing to participate in something that requires consistent activity. Best person to talk to about this and PC's Wi-Fi battling scene would most likely be Griffinbane. I'll also note that they usually follow the VGC rules.

On the other hand, it would be significantly easier to pull this off if the battling were to be held on the PC Battle Server. We don't have a super large amount of simulator battlers, but there's more than enough to run a small event or group. Speaking of that, 16 league members plus multiple challengers is a lot for a small community such as ours. We would only be able to muster roughly 16-25 participants for the entire thing. It would be more realistic if you didn't strictly follow the in-game format, and change it up a bit (i.e. 5 Gym Leaders, 1 Champion (like this: https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=302109)), or two teams of 4 Gym Leaders). Additionally, majority, if not all, of our battle server community plays Smogon's OU metagame and treats it as the official standard metagame here. It would be wise to follow the same rules, as most people would prefer that anyway.

2) I don't like the restrictions set on the league members (see: only able to use 10 registered Pokemon). This heavily restricts creativity and enjoyment for the league members for absolutely no valid reason. Something simple like "you must use 4 Pokemon of the same typing with 2 wildcards" would be much better. Or you could allow people to expand on their gym themes by letting them focus on different playstyles and the like (i.e. weather, Sticky Web, Trick Room, Gravity, etc.).

edit: We also have a battling group found here (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=313392) that could be implemented with this.

 

[champagnepapi]

i agree with wolflare, i think this would be a very good experiment to try and run on our server with smogon's tier list

my only quip is the title matches to decide the gym leaders, and the tournament that initially decides the gym leaders. luck is a huge factor in pokemon; i've beaten people better than me because of luck factors and lost to people worse than me because of luck as well. it just wouldn't be right for one of the better players to lose out on a gym leader spot because they got haxed in the initial tourney. i think it would be better if the heads of the league personally picked them

 

[Squirrel]

I don't care how the initial choices are supposed to work I have dibs on Flying gym leader. (I love the idea and really want to see it put in place, but I am slightly worried about the size of the active battling community compared to how many people are needed just as leaders/E4, let alone the challengers... I think it'd work a heck of a lot better using an online simulator for this reason haha.)

 

[Nihilego]

I suppose the demand isn't that high... I mean, yeah the 8 gym leaders + the E4 makes up 12 people which we need for sure but from then on out there's no actual limit to the number of challengers which we have. If we keep advertising it, they'll keep coming. It's just having the people to get the whole thing started.

 

[wolf]

Ohh my bad, I thought the league member total would be 16 for some reason. 12 + 1 (Champion) is still quite a lot, though. I think 8 is the perfect number for something like this. It's just enough to do different types of league layouts and still has plenty of player diversity, while keeping it low enough to have semi-high standards for their battling skill. Plus, you want to make sure there's loads of challengers. Something like 5 Gym Leaders, 2 Elite "Four", and 1 Champion would work out just fine. Adding onto my suggestion of using two teams of 4 Gym Leaders, they could have a clan aspect to them by being rivals. So, they could have wars and competitions between each other to promote some healthy competition within the league, and would still allow other people to challenge them like any other league. Our previous PC League had problems keeping the league members interested and active, so I think this would help.

edit: 10 would be okay too.

 

[Synerjee]

This should be fun! It would be great to see this up and running at some point. And yes, I agree with the others that this should be conducted on the battle server instead on 3DS'es as not everyone who wants to participate has a 3DS whereas the server is online for everyone. Also, the server gets more activity, which we are aiming for haha. :P

 

[curiousnathan]

This sounds like good fun; you can count me in!

 

[Griffinbane]

Wolf is half right, we actually do have people who play singles along with VGC. It's just that our VCG people tend to be very outspoken because we're actively planning on where we're meeting up and how to grab who from where in order to get to here (I'm actually talking about RL meetups). Our wifi battlers over at TC is actually a LOT smaller than what Wolfy thinks. The only reason there's so many of us is because I (and NecrumWarrior) have to do a lot of recruiting and give a lot of incentives. Le sigh.

As long as we do NOT have a repeat of last time, I'm all up for it. But I honestly don't think you'll find enough people on the wifi-side of things to join in. Most on TC definitely won't. We have probably 5 active battlers, the rest are casual battlers, battling when they're bored or when I string a cupcake in front of their noses. As for non-TC wifi battlers, there's probably 10-15 but they're pretty casual as well, and most new battlers leave PC after a few weeks (days, most of the time) after registering for a tournament.

The last time we've had a successful league was back in 2008 - early 2009. No one's been able to create a successful league since. (Then again, no one's created a well formated, well thought-out league since. /shrug)

You're probably the first person to have an actual shot at making this work. Make it for sims. You can /try/ making a separate one for Wifi, but don't get too down if it doesn't work out.

 

[Fayble]

I work a 3rd shift so I totally passed out after posting this thread for a few hours, but I just got done reading through all the replies. First, thanks everyone for taking the time to read this and giving your input - a lot of my ideas like this (I did something awhile back for another competitive game scene) tend to be long-winded and, therefore, lose a lot of people's interest.

I'm not going to take the time to quote everyone who said what, a lot of people brought up the same points, so I'll just make a few notes here.

1. WiFi vs Battle Simulator
My reason for WiFi over simulator was for a few reasons. First, I just like the 3D battles. If anything brought me back to Pokemon, it was the death of sprites. Second, personally, I use a Mac. While I vaguely remember... I think it was called Pokemon Online... had a Mac version, I haven't kept up with simulators since. I wanted it to be accessible and I think most of us here actually play the games and presumably have WiFi (although someone above mentioned they didn't)...

Also, the in-game teams would simulate a more... real experience. You actually have to invest a solid chunk of time in breeding and raising your Pokemon, but the reward is obviously enormous. I feel it's more fulfilling. In all honesty, you should be able to just breed for nature, EV train (with Hordes, this takes maybe 15 minutes), and you're set. IVs would be something you should only concern yourself with if you have the time and desire to devote to it.

That all said... I understand why most of you suggest Showdown and I, personally, want to do what most people think is best.

2. Rules / Tiers
While most everyone is familiar with the OU metagame, I don't think it's right to just... blindly follow Smogon. While they may have tested everything and obviously have the experience to make such decisions, I have seen people in that position be wrong before against community opinion. While obvious Pokemon (Mewtwo, Yveltal, Deoxys, etc) should be banned from the start, I don't think it's right to ban individual Pokemon like Blaziken right out of the gate. And while certain rules (like sleep cause) and items (like quick claw) should also be banned, I don't think strictly following their meta should be the way to go.

If an issue arises where 'everyone is doing it' (like 'Sand Rush' Excadrill from GenV), it should be addressed by the team in charge.

3. Scale
I can completely agree with scaling the number of gyms and elite four based on population of the actual group. That ratio should obviously be decided after a list of people has been obtained so we can see actual numbers. Then, as the league grows (or, please no, shrinks) then positions can be added/removed.


Did I miss anything that was also repeatedly mentioned...?

 

[champagnepapi]

1. WiFi vs Battle Simulator
My reason for WiFi over simulator was for a few reasons. First, I just like the 3D battles. If anything brought me back to Pokemon, it was the death of sprites. Second, personally, I use a Mac. While I vaguely remember... I think it was called Pokemon Online... had a Mac version, I haven't kept up with simulators since. I wanted it to be accessible and I think most of us here actually play the games and presumably have WiFi (although someone above mentioned they didn't)...

I think wifi looks better as well but playing on simulators really does make it easier. Simulators allow us to start the league faster and have it flow a lot quicker, as you can get teams and try out a ton of strategies much faster on them. Also, to address the point about the mac, there's a new simulator called pokemon showdown, it's browser based, so your OS isn't a concern. Here's PC's server

https://pokecommunity.psim.us/

2. Rules / Tiers
While most everyone is familiar with the OU metagame, I don't think it's right to just... blindly follow Smogon. While they may have tested everything and obviously have the experience to make such decisions, I have seen people in that position be wrong before against community opinion.

Your language here shows a bit of a misconception you have. Smogon is an OPTION rather than a competitive pokemon aristocracy and we aren't 'blindly' following them. We've chosen to follow their tiers because their site is home to the most informed players of competitive pokemon that are capable of making the best decisions on what to ban and what to keep with a tiering process that's far from arbitrary. Additionally it brings the highest amount of credibility to our league and site.

I'm not in favor of any type of scale but if its necessary then its necessary, i think with proper advertisement the desired numbers could be reached

 

[Fayble]

Your language here shows a bit of a misconception you have. Smogon is an OPTION rather than a competitive pokemon aristocracy and we aren't 'blindly' following them. We've chosen to follow their tiers because their site is home to the most informed players of competitive pokemon that are capable of making the best decisions on what to ban and what to keep with a tiering process that's far from arbitrary. Additionally it brings the highest amount of credibility to our league and site.

No, there's no misconception. As I said, I've belonged to competitive communities where there was a group (comprised of former national event winners, well respected and knowledgeable community members, and even game developers) that created the rules and settings for competitive matches. Initially, they were the best and most competitive that still utilized the majority of the game's features. They were voted upon regularly, feedback was ongoing, on they were the majority winner. However, as time went on, the general consensus of the community changed. We wanted changes, some that seemed radical, because from our personal experience over an extended period, we decided that different variations needed to be tested.

Tiers shouldn't matter in this discussion, except when it comes to what is 'Uber' or otherwise 'Banned'. I don't think anyone here would want to unleash some Mewtwos into an otherwise OU metagame and presume only a handful will use it. I'm also not saying that basic rules (like sleep clause, evasion/accuracy stuff, etc) should be removed.

All I'm really saying is that unless their are specific complaints, no single Pokemon or variant of a Pokemon (Mega Evolution or otherwise) should be banned at the creation. If enough people say "Mega Blaziken and even Blaziken are OP" then the people in charge should address it.

tl;dr - While knowledgable and experience, the people we put in charge can often be blinded to the popular opinion of a community at a whole.

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

This is definitely an excellent idea. I definitely think it would be best to have a tournament to decide the gym leaders though, for instance for a Flying-type gym all of the people competing for the spot would battle each other with only Flying-types.

One thing that is definitely a bad idea is having the staff cherry-pick all of the gym leaders and the Elite Four. Not only is that unfair to those who are good but aren't necessarily "popular" among the regulars and staff, but it eliminates the factor of only the best getting through. We could very well have a Fire-type gym leader that sucks balls at battling but got his/her position because of a status he or she held (Tier 6 supporter, mod/s-mod, etc).

Besides, if we have a tourney for leaders and Elite Four, it could open up possibilites of becoming popular through the league. :D

 

[Nolafus]

This is definitely an excellent idea. I definitely think it would be best to have a tournament to decide the gym leaders though, for instance for a Flying-type gym all of the people competing for the spot would battle each other with only Flying-types.

I've seen this before, but there's a major problem with this. You're only testing the teams that are best angled to beat their own type. The team could suck, but be able to beat it's own type, and BAM, you're a gym leader. I've seen it several times before, and I don't think it's the best way. In my opinion, the best way is to go through and test battle each applicant. That way, you get to see what kinds of tricks each team possesses first hand and then pick the person that stood out the most. Of course, multiple rounds of this could be held eliminating teams, having more test battles, etc. until one remained. But, that's time consuming.

I'm still saying it needs to be on a simulator. The fact is, people don't want to put in the time and effort to train their pokemon. I mean, what if you want to make some changes? Then you have to go through the hassle of raising completely new pokemon. Plus, the majority of competitive battlers here use the simulator. It doesn't mattered what worked at other forums, because this isn't those other forums. If this league is going to take off, I still think it's going to have to use simulators. Plus, there's people like me that don't have wifi, so that's not even an option for us. You'll be losing out on potential members, that's for sure.

 

[champagnepapi]

One thing that is definitely a bad idea is having the staff cherry-pick all of the gym leaders and the Elite Four. Not only is that unfair to those who are good but aren't necessarily "popular" among the regulars and staff, but it eliminates the factor of only the best getting through. We could very well have a Fire-type gym leader that sucks balls at battling but got his/her position because of a status he or she held (Tier 6 supporter, mod/s-mod, etc).

Cherry picking is the most ideal method since it ensures the highest quality of the gym leaders. The heads of the league would simply hold a tryout period. Someone who doesn't hold a huge presence on this site can get in by showing that they're a good battler in the tryouts.

tl;dr - While knowledgable and experience, the people we put in charge can often be blinded to the popular opinion of a community at a whole.

Deoxys-S and Gengar where banned after a massive community discussion where anyone could post and sway the council's final decision. Pretty much every other Pokemon was banned [aside from the 'obvious ubers' that you mention, and Deoxys-N and Blaziken this generation] after voters who qualified with a rating high enough [this could be anyone as long as they get the rating] voted on whether to ban a Pokemon or not alongside a massive discussion thread to sway anyone who may be attempting to qualify to vote.[/QUOTE]

As I said, I've belonged to competitive communities where there was a group (comprised of former national event winners, well respected and knowledgeable community members, and even game developers) that created the rules and settings for competitive matches.

Which community are you referencing?

 

[wolf]

PC's standard metagame is Smogon's XY OU and...that's that. Our battling community primarily plays it, and our official league should reflect that. For the league to go against this would make it much less accessible and significantly hamper interest in it. Not to mention there are numerous problems in attempting to make a balanced metagame within such a small community, but I'd rather not get into an argument about that. If you want to make a league with your own custom metagame, then more power to you. However, complications arise once you intend to label it as PC's official league, as there are expectations that must be met. I personally recommend to avoid making it official, since it would limit the creative control you have over your league. In addition to that, there are no other differences between an official and unofficial league, aside from having different names.

 

[Fayble]

While 'cherry-picking' would be faster, I agree that this could lead to possible bias and also auto-eliminate some lesser known, but still good, battlers. While the tournament method I described is a bit unfair (random pool, into bracket) the system was actually what was used during the Kanto League PLC in the anime. Random pool into bracket. Obviously, there are dozens of ways to organize a tournament and this was just a rip... if people would rather do pool play into bracket, at least for this opening event to decide positions, I'm all for it.

Six to one, half a dozen to the other.

Deoxys-S and Gengar where banned after a massive community discussion where anyone could post and sway the council's final decision. Pretty much every other Pokemon was banned [aside from the 'obvious ubers' that you mention, and Deoxys-N and Blaziken this generation] after voters who qualified with a rating high enough [this could be anyone as long as they get the rating] voted on whether to ban a Pokemon or not alongside a massive discussion thread to sway anyone who may be attempting to qualify to vote.

I think this issue is also something that could be put to a vote here. Honestly, I don't care either way that much... I just don't feel comfortable creating a league for this community without having our own variation, even if it is similar. It'd be different if PC had a large sway in Smogon's community, but I won't pretend to know the extent of any relationship there.

Which community are you referencing?

The Halo community, now long dead... but that's entirely because the developer failed to support their game and our primary organizer (AGL) failed to pay out on multiple tournaments and cancelled events last minute.

Edit:
@Wolf - Like I said in this post, it's up to the community. I have no desire to come in and dictate things. People should take my OP as just a framework and go from there. There is not a single part of that google doc that is set in stone.

As far as 'official vs unofficial'... while I'm more than willing to invest the time to take the idea and run with it with this sort of community feedback, I'd rather PC pick it up as well. At that point, I don't need to even be remotely involved if it'd be better handled by all staff. My suggestion would be to have a handful of members (volunteers with time on their hands) who can run things with a sprinkling of staff support/endorsement to ensure everything is run within PC's best interest and standards.

 

[wolf]

Ahhh, so you don't plan on making the league then. If that's the case, I'll be willing to pick it up and make it happen. I have some ideas on how to go about doing this, and I may post a thread for feedback in the Battle Center sometime soon. However, I can't guarantee it'll be similar to your idea, but it will retain the basic concept of a league.