[CRITICSM] Past and present of ROM hacking

[Zanacross]

I'm currently a trainee ROM hacker,and Ive never played a ROM hack in my life.

As long as i see it in advance map I'm fine.

thats what i did with quartz, shiny gold, and others.

i like to know about what scripts are in games but its not something i care about,
thats probably why I'm not a good ROMHacker
i like changing the looks of games not the scripts (mainly cos its hard and i cant be bother to learn)
i will learn how to script
I could've posted so many crap hacks Ive made, but learned that if its not good and something i would want to see don't post it, i don't wanna see a hack from some little kid that cant make a error free map, that wont even check it again.
When i map i will check maps over 3 times in some cases 4 thats a goal i set myself when i map
I don't make a map like the crap hackers do and go "omg i cant see an errors" and theres like 12 errors in one part.
Check your god dam map's you noobie hackers
it might mean you wont get flamed.
Spell check
Check your spellings please we don't wanna see a hack like "he PLAYER Hew r Jou TOW da"

meh

thats just what i think

 

[johnlycett]

Well really we where once n00bs. But the one thing that annoys me about the newbies that they expect a beta, and just map and not willing to learn more aspects to rom-hacking.

Also the other n00bs don't care About scripts all they care is there are new tiles and maps which dissapoints me because scripts are the main point of a hack.

E.g quartz all it had was new maps and sprites
It semmed to impress newbies didn't it?

But really i should have learn't more before starting my rom hack.

 

[Coolboyman]

Well really we where once n00bs. But the one thing that annoys me about the newbies that they expect a beta, and just map and not willing to learn more aspects to rom-hacking.

Also the other n00bs don't care About scripts all they care is there are new tiles and maps which dissapoints me because scripts are the main point of a hack.

E.g quartz all it had was new maps and sprites
It semmed to impress newbies didn't it?

But really i should have learn't more before starting my rom hack.

Well most ROM hacks are actually "Map Mods", where the main maps looks almost exactly like the ones in the original games. I've said this a million times: "CLEAR OUT THE ORIGINAL MAP BEFORE MAKING YOUR OWN OR ELSE IT'LL LOOK LIKE THE ORIGINAL!" Millions of hacks don't do that, and this advice (and my number 1 rule) I feel should be basic logic, but so many people don't do it I find it ridiculous.

 

[johnlycett]

Yeah because you can tell its only just been edited lightly and you can see bits and peices of the map that was there orginaly (yep i always clear my map before i start :))

The main point on a hack is to make it look like a brand new game no little bit where you can tell its a hack.

 

[destinedjagold]

well, I could map everything to the map I picture in my mind, but I don't want to destroy the scripts in a certain map. It happened to me before when I really changed Rustboro City to half of what I desire, and the script won't work anymore.

That's one factor I try to evade. Oh well...

 

[Alistair]

Okay, well, here is my little rant.

Pokemon Hacks and Hacking Overall
The value of hacks have overall decreased. With the amount of easy to use hacking tools comes an ever expanding hacking pool and good hacks, with many of them being newbs and noobs. I say newbs and noobs because they are two completely different types of hackers. there are some people who are trying the best he/she can, while taking his/her peer's thoughts into consideration. These are the newbs, mainly because they try and are "new." Then there are people who do it just for self gratification. These are (usually) the noobs, and the hacks are usually bad, mainly because the creator just does not care about his/her hack. The noobs usually out weigh the newbs, and encourage newbs to be just like them, noobs (this is mainly done when noobs compliment newbs, rather than give construcive criticism). Basically, as I said before, hacking has overall declined.

Graphics
Overall, this area has somewhat improved. It is nice to see that people are changing the palettes of hacks, along with the overworlds and tiles. It is very nice seeing fake Pokemon, line in Battle Fire and Marble. What is not nice, though, is when people use the same ROM base or sprites over and over. For example, when Treecko originally released the Kyledove ROM Base, that is all people would use. Every hack had the same excellent graphics, and they quickly did not become so excellent, they became ordinary. Now, that is happening with Xiros' DP trees. This is something that the negatives greatly drag down the postives, but not far enough for it to become a bad thing. Conclusion: try some palettes and sprites no one else is using.

Mapping
This has always been an issue. Even with the release of a mapping tutorial, people manage to skip over it and create some bad maps. A lot of people just barely edit the already existing maps, and completely destroy them. A lot of maps in hacks are way too square, have very little tile variety, have very many obvious errors, and overall, do not look good. People should practice mapping for extended periods of time before editing the maps in a ROM.

Scripts
This is an area that has vastly improved. Before, people had to use hex, and/or script using unstable scripting tools. Many hackers could not be bothered with this daunting task, so every hack was bascially the same with different maps. Now, there are stable and easy to use tools, along with the fact that there are many premade scripts. There is still the fact that some people do not bother trying to make his/her scripts more efficient, but at least they are altering the gameplay even more.

Storyline
With the introduction of Noob Hacks, this area has decreased. There are many hacks that have the storyline remain the same, and there are even some that dull it down more than it was before. Sure, there are some great storylines like Orange's and Shiny Gold's, but there are about 3 hacks for each of the said above that have a really dull, boring, and not-even-a-complete-thought-injected storyline. This area needs vastly improved.

Media
This is a serious issue. Many good hacks are overshadowed by the popular hacks (I am not saying they are bad) and bad hacks that noobs promote. This is mainly due to the fact that noobs like to release demos left, right, up, and down. Most of these hacks barely go to the first gym (if they even do). A lot of the noobs want to play and have no patience, so they pay attention to the hacks that release a demo once every week or so, rather than the hacks that deserve it. This promotes the noob issue, too. Instead of quality, they would rather choose playing right off the bat. A lot of people need to realize that hacks take time. Before, when there was about 2 new hacks a month, this was not an issue at all.

Tools
This area has vastly improved, with one downside (that being that it attracts noobs). Even the most daunting task is done with incredible ease, now that the Advance generation of games practically all the data to them in a tool or another.

Consistancy
Another thing that has declined is the amount of time put into one hack. I can understand when the ROM becomes corrupted beyond repair and when people need to put other priorities first such as school, but many hacks are getting canceled because of a lack of interest, a lack of attention, or lack of knowledge of hacking along with the lack of desire to learn. People need to stick with their hacks (But they do not need to make it their life). People are also beginning to make many hacks at once, which leads to overlap, and overload. This also leads to people quitting from hacking. This needs to be fixed desperately.

Music
This has been improved, but marginally. This is due to the fact that the MID2AGB program is so elusive, to the fact that composing music (not remixing music that was previously composed by someone else) is very difficult and would require amounts of time that very few people would want to invest on a hack. This is not an area that really needs much improvement, though.

In conlcusion, the quality of hacks has marginally gotten better, when you average in newb and noob hacks.

 

[Hiidoran]

I completely agree with Martin Yiu's first statement. When I saw this I thought to myself, "Finally someone is speaking up!" Most of us don't want to offend fellow hackers (or lack thereof) by stating that their hacks are just... horrible! Many think that by slightly changing the maps they've created some-sort of wonder. But when trees don't have tops, fences have no curves, and path's do not blend together, you've got a grade "A" piece of... well you know. Scripting is by far the most import part of hacking anything. Without it, you have nothing but a simple alteration which makes people, like me, bleed from the eyes. Now I am not trying to anger all new hackers, or anyone for that matter, I'm simply stating a fact. It takes dedication to make a hack, if you're not serious about an idea, don't do it. I think I've made at least 100 hack attempts and if you will notice I have posted none of them. There is a reason behind my madness; they were not to my standard. When I first started hacking, I could not get scripting (wow, that was a long time ago), but because I was dedicated, I learned to hex-edit quite well. I now understand that it's incredibly difficult to make great scripts completely in hex, but I did learn things. And in the end that's what this is about. These new hackers need practice, and it's good that more hackers are joining the circuit. But, practice is not pretty. I've heard many wise hackers and even a few staff members tell new hackers to simply "play-around" with hacking until they get a feel for it; then, and only then, should they attempt to make a project. I understand that people are at different skill levels, and many people will never (more than likely including myself) be able to make hacks half as well as hackers like Zel, Serg!o, and Teh Baro.

Also, it really ticks me off when people refuse to play hacks just because they are in a different language. The words aren't the only important thing in a game! How's the game play? Is it fun? Does it look good? Is it different?. These are what I look for. In my experience the vast majority of great hacks, was in a different language, or was made by people whose first language was not English. Sure, the grammar might have been off at certain points and some things might have been misspelled, but the game play was solid and better than most of these new hacks already in English. There have been many times I have helped translate games from one language to another; it gives me a lot of joy! I like the feeling of making what was once confusing and un-comprehendible to most and making perfect sense out of it. Why don't some of the rest of you "English is the supreme language hackers" try that?

As the rest of the posters here have said, I hope I didn't offend anyone. I am not targeting anyone in particular. But like I said, practices is good, but let's not flaunt every hack where we made a slight map hack, or edited the starter Pokémon in Ruby. Peace Out!

-Hiidoran

 

[El Diabeetus]

It's time for my point of view on this.

Yes, even though theres always been bad hacks, even some of the "Bad" hacks had some good ideas in them, and if executed better, could turn into a better hack.

Nowdays, I'm seeing too much of the same thing over and over again. With ROM hacking, you want to be as original as you can, and realize that if you try hard enough, you could put what you want into the game. You just have to try.

I'm barely seeing anyone try these days, most of these are "G/S" remakes by some newbies who are desperate to become the next Zel, and you all know who you are, with the only excuse is "OMG THERES GONNA BE NEW TRAINERS AND TWO HYBRIDS AND A NEW TREE IN CHERRYGROVE CITY. It's okay to be motivated by someone, but making the same damn thing is not original.

Others are just kids making hacks that are barely 1% done and posting incomplete screen shots, and saying this and that will be in their hack by people who have no idea what the hell they're doing. The thing is, when they promise something, they usually have no idea how to input it into the game. It's easy to say "Hey I'm going to add a day/night system to Fire Red", but very difficult to actually DO it. And when these "features" are not in the beta, they get all pissed off and say "ITS JUST A BETA". In beta's, you are supposed to give a very small sample of what the final product could be like. "I'll do it later" is just a lazy excuse and it'll probably never get done. The thing with talking about features, anyone can say it, but to really prove you are actually doing something, is to SHOWpeople. Also Newbies who get pissed off when you help them and they keep doing a crappy job when in their view they're doing a great job, are downright pathetic. IF you are new, you should expect to screw up and not be a "pro" the moment you touch Advance map.

I never talked about any of my projects unless they were at least 10% done, because I've worked on other projects (even a Pokemon hack idea I had involving time travel and Rijon), that never made it that far. Usually if it's at at least 10%, it's most likely going to get done. Just because you're working on a hack for one hour doesn't mean you need to post about it.

Now I can understand "practice hacks" because I've done several myself, but thinking the first thing you do is going to get you popular is NOT good at all. If the only reason you're making a hack is to make yourself more popular and trying to become "The next best ROM hacker", I want you to delete all your hacking tools and your "Great" hack and never attempt to hack again. I never had that intention in Brown, that it would make me popular and viewed as a great pokemon hacker, I just thought that some people might find it cool and fun and it would eventually fade away, but it didn't. This is why I make hacks: for people to have fun playing them, and enjoying them, not to become more popular. Recently another G/S re-maker who has no idea what the **** he's doing is trying to become the "Next Zel", and I'm all sure you know who he is. I'm pretty damn sure the only reason he's making this hack is to become viewed as a great pokemon hacker, and I think that's downright pathetic.

As for different language hacks, people should really give them a try, although I agree with Zel that sometimes the person doesn't know whats going on, still people should try it out, and maybe the poster should attempt to translate it. For Prism I could of done it in another language (since English isn't my first language), but I decided to do it in English because most Pokemon hackers speak English (from what I know). When Prism's done I'm going to get translators to translate it into other languages for other people to enjoy.

==This might make you mad==
Another thing that really bugs me is Pokecommunity is WAY too accepting of crappy hacks. Seriously, I've seen crappy hacks with 2 pages worth of "looks great, this is going to be cool etc.", and it shocks me that I'm the only one who thinks this hack is bad! I can understand beginner hacks, but jesus christ, if you keep saying that making a crappy hack (in their view is a great hack) is GOOD, then they won't even bother to improve! Seriously, this pisses me off more than anything on this site, and I'm simply tired of it.

If you think a hack sucks, I want you to give constructive criticism, and let them know your views on making a good Pokemon hack. Don't be afraid if the author gets pissed off, because if they can't handle good criticism, then they shouldn't be posting their work in the first place. Don't just say "this is good bla bla". If your hacks sucks and I want to comment about it, I'll say it sucks and give a damn good reason why and ideas on how to improve.
===

Pokemon Brown was popular because it was the first of it's kind - a game featuring a whole new region, and basically a whole new game. It's a simple premise, but back then most hacks were just simple crap like "turning all the houses into caves" or "new starters with a different hero sprite". It's kind of shocking, but from what I believe Pokemon Brown was the first "Brand new region/game" hack there was. However, I decided to go in a different direction and make my OWN world with my OWN ideas, where I had basically no influences to go by. And it became popular. Why? Because I tried doing something different. I took a chance, and it worked. I'm not saying using the "new world" style in a hack is bad, because it's very vague and you can literally do anything you want to your world, and I encourage all hackers to do it.

Also, newbies are ****faced if they don't have a program to help them edit even the simplest things. Pokemon Red has very few and simple tools, such as a starter changer, so I modified program of Gold map named "Red Map", which was made by me just so I could edit all the maps in the game. The stuff I couldn't put into red map or a program I learned how the game's memory structure and worked from there. So most of the stuff you're seeing in Brown except for maps was flat out done with hex, and it wasn't easy at all.

Now I'm trying to do a much better job with Prism with trying out SEVERAL new things that has never been in a Pokemon game before, not to brag, but the stuff in beta was only a small fraction of the new features, and all I have to go by is my Hex Editor, a few documents (especially the script document), Gold map (which I helped make), and my imagination.

So if you want to make a good hack and be popular by that, do something DIFFERENT and try to think of stuff you could put in a pokemon game. Don't just stop at "Oh it can't be done" (because I said that in 2006 with the clothes changing, and wow it got in!), try to figure out a way to execute it, do experiments (which could even give you a new idea), and just keep trying. Hell, I thought of two new ideas for Prism three hours ago by just brainstorming. They might get in, they might not, but I'll try to get them in, and if they do, then it'll be awesome.

Also Pokecommunity isn't the worst Pokemon hacking site. I went to a ****ty Italian Pokemon hacking site and posted Prism, and all they said "why isn't this a GBA hack?", and didn't even attempt to play it. **** them

You're right, I'm probably one of the hackers you hate, I'm cool with that but Unlike most people's remakes I'm not trying to copy zel, I'm trying to completely change parts of the Johto and like adding in Hoenn (Even though most people think it's a **** Region I thought it was the coolest one, although some of the Pokemon could have used more work), Team Galactic and ways to get the Legendaries you had to have a damn ticket for to get. Well if I ever finish this remake, which I probably won't (Cause I have never finished a hack, usually cause somewhere along the way Hundreds of Glitches appear.) Well If I finish the Remake or if I don't I'm going to start a new hack with All new maps, map connections, sprites, text etc. To tell you the truth I'm not good at scripting or Hex Editing, but over this weekend I'm going to read up on some tutorials and get better at it, Really the thing I'm best at hacking is Music and Sprites.

CBM, others posting here, If you get pissed at me I'm cool with it I'm not going to go all Emo on everybody, as long as people tell me what I need to change or work on, I try to Improve on it, Hell it might take awhile but I'll take a shot at ASM hacking too. I seriously hate being called a n00b (Noob) but if you consider me a noob your entitled to that opinion. Just saying what I think about this.

Also, I hate how every person who joins here after sometime in September last year (2006) the only hack they care about is "Shiny Gold" no offense to you zel.

There are other hacks, people like Twilight Illusion, Prism, Colbat Blue/Plasma Red etc.

 

[Coolboyman]

You're right, I'm probably one of the hackers you hate

I don't hate anybody, but I do hate the hacks they make and their decisions. I even don't hate the people who cry when I make a negative comment on their hack.

Hating someone because they make a hack is stupid, but its alright to hate the hacks they made.

 

[Green Charizard]

It's right in saying hacking standard has decreased. After skimming through the topic that seems to be everyones opinion. I've been a member here for quite a few years, not an active poster, but I've read through the majority of hacks that have passed through here. My first hacks were dreadful, it was my 5th or 6th that I posted here a few years ago. And that was bad. But what you've got to remember is they're new, they don't know how to do everything. The only way they are going to learn is by hacking more and more. But by making a dreadful hack they'll learn other skills and they'll get better. When we all started were all horrific hackers, some worse than others through computer skills. I think they should post them, it'll encourage them to do better and try other things.

But there is MORE of these bad hacks than before, you're right. But the hacking phenomenon has spread and more people are trying it AND PC has grown MASSIVE so you are bound to get more hacks of lesser quality until they all learn.

BUT they could at least flick through some other hacks on a similar level as theres and read comments so they know what to improve on before it is posted. Mapping is the biggest issue here and a lot of it is lazy mapping.

 

[El Diabeetus]

Yeah, your right When I tried something Original people hated it cause it didn't follow the traditional Pokemon Game graphics. it was the Pokemon South Park one, yeah I know the sprites/graphics sucked balls, but mainly people hated it cause it was too random or had too much swearing, oh well, I'll try again with both ways, the South Park and the Regular Pokemon Styles.
Also I couldn't script at all then it was a poorly edited kanto game, now I'm going to re-attempt it with a new region.

Oh, CBM thanks for clearing that up, Before I misunderstood what you said about what you hated "the hack or the hacker". Hey, your one of the reasons I even got into hacking.

 

[94dan]

Umm...

Well, I'm kinda busy, so I'll make this quick.

I know I can't hex edit, so I'm not going to bother to make a hack. It'd be crap. I'd probably try to fix each little thing as I went along, screwing myself up one way or another. I don't want to be part of the problem.

Also, I... Just can't read Spanish. I dunno, I guess dialog is important to me.

And, I'm sorry I can't read all of this topic, but walls of text get me discouraged. I mean, I eventually read them, but they're just discouraging. I at least read the first few posts, and agree with you wholeheartedly. That's why I'm not going to hack a game.

 

[♠εx]

Here some from me, though i've been a bit stupid aswell.

Hack Quality
----------------------------
Not many people bother adding a few completely new features into there game, everyone promises new trainer battles but not many actually happen. Alot of people are too worked up with how the thread will look like and not many care about how the game will look like. The point of hacking is too add something completely new to Pokemon. But some people get too many ideas from other hacks. A few reasons there are remakes are because other people have gotten theres to look good and everyone else thinks if they make a remake that theres will be as good as ShinyGold or Crystal Shards. The owners of these hacks put alot of time and effot into them, thats why people like them.

Graphics
----------------------------
I see some people adding new graphics but not many, people just can't be bothered. Alot of tiles are someone elses or they're just from other games changed a little. I like how people are adding some new palettes, but only one or two. Such as the ground and trees. If you make them too different the buildings and other tiles will stand out too much. You need to change all the palettes or most. Some people are only block editting there tiles, not actually changing them. A few hacks that look completely unique are Harmony Version, ShinyGold and GreenForest (even though it's a RomBase, it's been converted and changed..) If you like the current palettes, cant you just add new tiles with them? It will look nice and original.

Scripting
----------------------------
Alot of people cant be bothered with scripting anymore, even if there are premades for people. Some ROM's having different scripting ways, you might need to change them a little. I'm currently learning to script myself, and beleive me, one you read a few tutorials it comes right off the top of your head. The movements and all the hex numbers aren't that hard to memorise. If they are, write them down. It's not that big of a deal. Without alot of new scripts, the game will basically be the same.

Mapping
----------------------------
As many people have said before, completely erase your map before remapping. It's not that hard to make a decent map, Marz has made an easy to learn tutorial telling you about all these features a map should have. They should never be square, use one of the tree tiles and model your map and then use the rest to save time. If you need to adjust it you can do that easily. A map should have some features in it, especially routes, they should have some hard to get around trees or a maze of some sort. The grass should be messed up!

General Statement
----------------------------
I've been accused of this myself, keep to a hack! Don't give up on it. Though sometimes it is not the hackers fault always. When they finally decide to keep on a hack, something bad happens. Which is unlucky.

Thats all I have to say.

 

[Martin Yiu]

Umm...

Well, I'm kinda busy, so I'll make this quick.

I know I can't hex edit, so I'm not going to bother to make a hack. It'd be crap. I'd probably try to fix each little thing as I went along, screwing myself up one way or another. I don't want to be part of the problem.

Also, I... Just can't read Spanish. I dunno, I guess dialog is important to me.

And, I'm sorry I can't read all of this topic, but walls of text get me discouraged. I mean, I eventually read them, but they're just discouraging. I at least read the first few posts, and agree with you wholeheartedly. That's why I'm not going to hack a game.

You took it very personally. That's bad. It's not all about hex editing. YOu just need to script for start, you will learn other things later. Don't be discouraged. Try! But only when your hack gets to higher quality than all newbie hacks you see, we strongly ENCOURAGE you to post.

 

[94dan]

Well, I can't script, either.

The only thing I ever did that I impressed myself with was an RPG Maker game. I mapped it so well... For a typical RPG, of course. Then it was deleted when my old computer decided to erase itself.

I never did finish it... There's no way I'm paying $60 for that.

Besides, nobody likes RPG Maker games.

 

[~Areku-San]

Well, I have seen some of the views made here ...
And since the vast majority is right, and I would like to give my point of view about it.

The first HACKROM I played, it was the Pokemon QUARTZ, and I seemed incredible the amount of things that could be done in the ROM POKEMON RUBY of GBA.

That's what inspired me to the almost two years I have in the ROMHACKING, especially those dialogues as only she had.

And it's true, many people just make a HACKROM by becoming popular even admit that I was a person so long ago.

It is a war, NEWBIES VS PRO's
Which ever think that end, and I think that if we make a NEWBIE ceases to be, not trying to destroy it, on the contrary, to show that a mistake ^ ^

 

[Blazichu]

Most of the time newer people are becoming too lazy to learn basic stuff. It took me a year and a bit to learn the more difficult stuff, but it was worth it.

@Lex_14: How to newbies become pros?...it is called "practice".

The main point of this thread is people are just jumping in and thinking hacking anything is cool, when it is not! Most of the better hacks show that people have learnt what to do via tutorials etc. People just need to take the time to learn how to do complex stuff and make something completely original in there hack, it isn't hard you just need to think!

 

[zel 2.0]

I'll just quote a pair of things :)

Besides, nobody likes RPG Maker games.

In fact, it wouldn't hurt if you understand a bit how RPG Maker works, as it uses a lot of terms that will surely help in the transition from RPG Maker to hacks (this is from someone who had some experience with RPGM before hacking ;))

It is a war, NEWBIES VS PRO's

I don't like the term "war", it always makes me think you people are going too far with it and forget about the enjoyment of hacking. As Green Charizard said, all of us sucked when we started, and probably we didn't post anything till we really feel confident about our work. Now that seems to be a missing characteristic on the new hackers, and that's when we must give them pointers about the lot of documents on the Documents/Tutorial section, along with sincere comments about problems with their work.
(In reality, it'd be best if they could manage to judge their work better before posting it, but it depends on people's personalities, so we can't do much there)

The main point of this thread is people are just jumping in and thinking hacking anything is cool, when it is not!

Ehhhmmm... Well, hacking anything IS cool, Blazichu (if not, why are we all hacking?). But that doesn't mean it'll be easy, you'll have to probably be many hours with the try/error method, and that's when the hacker's patience is put on test (I just disagree with the word you picked, mind you ;))

 

[Ooka]

The only problem I have about all of the hacker with hardly any experience is when they post their hacks, all they did was use A-Text and someone says something different, or they used advancemap and now their is a house where there wasn't before. I like seeing aspiring hackers, but not when so many post new hacks that all the good hack threads die......

 

[Quilava's Master]

The words posted in this thread really spoke to me and as one of the newbie hackers i say I'm am in no way insulted. some people would be but why? If you're not good constructive critism is what you need so that you know what to do right nxt time.

Now on to the hacks. I wasnt here a long time so I really don't know about the classics. The 2 hacks that got me here was Shiny Gold & Naranja. Shiny Gold is the light for most newbies, but it should'nt be the only hack you play. Within my time here i've played:
Legend of the Dragons (TheX4)
Crystal Shards
Quartz
Naranja
Chaos Black
Shiny Gold
Blue Sea
SO before actually hacking for my self i tried other peoples so that my hack would not be mediocre. Mapping out a new map doesnt make it a hack. especially if the storyline is the same (essetially). I think that we should try harder to make decent hacks with an interesting plot and good sidequest. Me personally hated to script and only did it once.after that i became hooked and it became my favorite part of the game a good script itself can mae or breake the story of a hack. Some people don't try to script at all and spends all there free time in the scripts request discussion thread.I even go there on occasion but only for simple 'yes' 'no' answers, and scripts that have to do with movement (still terribly difficult ^_^) so yea i think that a newbie hacker should release a hack until its decent. My hack has been done since September 12th but im still trying to make it better.