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Serious Defending My Stance: Why Trump Needs to Go

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Maedar

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    Everyone keeps saying that the Democrats are "a mess", and that "it's all about the economy", and how Democrats represent socialism, give out "free stuff", how they impose a new form of slavery on minorities, and all that junk. They claim Democrats who post online are "paid Soros shills" or "anti-American haters."

    Now, it's rare that I find a supporter of Trump who tries to be civil online (a sad situation, I admit) who actually listens to my opinions; most of them are outright trolls make claims that I'm "brainwashed by the PC leftist media", and often cling to the fallacy (I assure you) that Democrats are a bunch of sore losers who seek retribution for the Election of 2016 (not true at all). The few decent Trump voters who I encounter claim I'm "close-minded, unwilling to accept an alternate view."

    Now, my first impulse is usually to say I'm trying to oppose things that I once hoped were considered unthinkable, indefensible, and inexcusable, things that most of civilized society considered "wrong". But it seems that must be expanded upon.

    So, rather than make some snarky comment that will get us nowhere, I am just going to honestly and clearly state my reasons here why I - and most Democrats overall - simply cannot accept Trump. So here goes:

    He has caused thousands of children to be interned in inhumane conditions, often for months, resulting in deaths, injuries and traumatic separations from families, and without access to even rudimentary schooling

    He has insulted and alienated the nation's friends and allies, rendering the democratic world leaderless.

    He flirted with repudiating NATO, a mutual defense commitment that has kept the planet free from worldwide war and destruction since the end of World War II, and has done so at a time when Russia exhibited increasing aggression by occupying territory of neighboring Ukraine, interfering in elections in the United States and Europe, and sending assassins to Britain to poison a former Russian spy.

    He has cozied up to right-wing nationalist dictators and autocrats at a moment when citizens of faltering democracies and the many peoples around the world aspiring to freedom most need an advocate on the international stage.

    He has rejected the honorable American presidential tradition of seeking unity and instead has indulged in the politics of division, willfully alienating a large segment of the American electorate while among his own supporters drumming up hatred for and suspicion of others.

    He has transformed the White House, which should promote policies based on reality, into the world capital of ignorance, dishonesty and misinformation by reciting verifiable falsehoods, from the size of his inauguration crowd to the direction of a hurricane to the (unproven) prevalence of election fraud.

    He has been a particular antagonist to California, seeking to undermine this state's forward-looking policies on auto emissions and environmental preservation, spreading falsehoods about the causes of its deadly wildfires, disparaging its rational and humane approach to immigration challenges, demeaning it for its struggles to deal with homelessness, and offering instead purported solutions that are unworkable, nonsensical or cruel.

    He has denied the existential challenge of climate change and has promulgated policies that weaken the nation's role in fighting it and scuttle the nation's ability to take economic leadership in low-emission and carbon-capturing technology.

    He has made the United States unreliable, erratic and foolish in international affairs by disparaging its diplomatic corps, engaging in frequent and jarring changes in foreign affairs and defense advisers and repudiating international allies and partners.

    He has made light of verified Russian assaults on U.S. elections, and at his notorious and shameful Helsinki news conference last year said he believed Russian President Vladimir Putin over his own nation's intelligence agencies. He failed to elicit from the Russian leader an apology for past intervention or a promise not to intervene in other elections. In so doing, he invited further, more comprehensive attacks — and failed in the most basic duty of any U.S. president, which is to protect and defend the United States.

    He has reduced or eliminated independent science advisory panels in a quest to remove fact from policy-making when it collides with damaging policies he wishes to pursue.

    He has demeaned the presidency with foul, angry language hurled at his political adversaries, replacing fireside chats and presidential addresses with cable-TV-fueled, stream-of-consciousness tweets that attack his critics and stoke fear and outrage in his supporters.

    He has undercut the nation's moral standing by his shrugging response to the murder of Jamal Khashoggi at the hands of Saudi operatives.

    He has sullied the office of the presidency by using it to express his personal contempt for people he does not like or who do not support him. The most egregious example may be his treatment of Sen. John McCain, a much-decorated former Vietnam War prisoner whose honor Trump questioned even after McCain's passing.

    He has appealed to the basest part of our culture, lifting into the mainstream chords and currents of racism that had long been left to fester in only our darkest corners. He commented on the deadly white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Va., with an equivocating speech that shrank from condemning violent racism and promoted false equivalency among demonstrators for and against white supremacy. He put in place a program to deny visas to visitors from majority Muslim nations. He disparaged Latinos, called Haiti, El Salvador and African nations "mukhole countries" and expressed his preference for immigrants from Norway. He promoted the notion that one's American-ness is a function of descent and not birth or naturalization, by saying U.S.-born members of Congress should "go back" to the countries "from which they came." He has issued statements that in the aggregate define an America united not by law, the Constitution, liberty or justice but by racial heritage.

    And for the record, his tweets give me a headache every morning.

    More than any president in living memory, Trump has cheapened his office, instilled distrust in essential institutions of justice and democracy and replaced knowledge and professionalism with ignorance and amateurism. This partial list represents a mere slice of what makes Donald Trump unacceptable as president of the United States and what makes it of utmost importance that Americans of all political parties and positions reject and replace him.

    I'd like to add, by the way, that I do not necessarily support impeachment, and have no desire for retribution; frankly, it is not my concern whether Trump is arrested or whether he retires to a villa in France, so long as he ceases being President.

    That is all I have to say. I welcome opposing opinions, or anyone with anything else to add., but please refrain from comparing what I said to any hypothetical scenarios.
     
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    I don't think you have to accept Trump or the Republicans to be aware of the Democratic party's faults. Trump is a terrible president and an even worse person and the majority of Republican politicians are relics of the past in their policy, regardless of how old they are.

    But the Republicans being terrible doesn't change the fact that there's a fair few democrats who aren't much better - looking at you Biden and co. People should stop identifying so much with a specific party and start identifying more with the policies and ideals they believe in. They should also remember that the Democrats are, mostly, not that far left. Most Democrats are slightly left of Centre and only seem to be very left because most Republicans are quite far right by comparison.
     
    But the Republicans being terrible doesn't change the fact that there's a fair few democrats who aren't much better - looking at you Biden and co. People should stop identifying so much with a specific party and start identifying more with the policies and ideals they believe in. They should also remember that the Democrats are, mostly, not that far left. Most Democrats are slightly left of Centre and only seem to be very left because most Republicans are quite far right by comparison.

    Can you define "too far left"?

    IMOHO, the Democrats want to provide affordable food, healthcare, and schooling, protect the environment, maintain civil rights for everyone, and require the richest citizens to pay a larger percentage of taxes, all things I consider noble goals.
     
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    Can you define "too far left"?

    IMOHO, the Democrats want to provide affordable food, healthcare, and schooling, protect the environment, maintain civil rights for everyone, and require the richest citizens to pay a larger percentage of taxes, all things I consider noble goals.

    You misunderstand me. I'm saying that most democrats are very centrist and only look distinctly left-wing because the Republican opposition is very far right by comparison. I'd prefer them to be more left than they are.
     
    So, you think Democrats aren't left leaning enough?

    Possibly. But that's not exactly a bad thing.

    IMOHO, I am identifying mostly with the ideals and policies I believe in, and again, I oppose Trump because he promotes policies and ideals that, to a civilized man, should be considered unthinkable.

    I should note that I doubt Trump could truly be called "Republican" or "Conservative" at the moment. He's in a class of his own.
     
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    Ughhh wall of text is well a wall of text

    I honestly like a lot of what Trump has done, but there are some things I disagree with and wish he would have reframed from doing or would stop doing.

    Thing is the Democrats have gone so far left in their policies this debate that it makes it hard to vote for anyone but Trump.

    When Bill Maher is the voice of reason for Democratic candidates it's kind of sad.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...your_most_divisive_issues_on_your_sleeve.html

    Edit: also not to derail the topic but while you bring up some good points, some of the things like Trump's response to Charlottesville or the travel ban have been so twisted it gets away from what was said or the original purpose/reasoning. The response to Charlottesville has gotten to the point of so many people denying or editing out what Trump has said that it's really gotten annoying.
     
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    Thing is the Democrats have gone so far left in their policies this debate that it makes it hard to vote for anyone but Trump.

    Like I said earlier, while some democrats like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, are definitely quite far left, most of the democrats are only a little left of Centre. The polarized party politics in the US have really distorted perceptions of how far left or right people are I feel. People see left and right as synonymous with democrat and republican respectively and this doesn't paint the most accurate picture.

    For example, Trump being so far right means people like the Clintons, DeLaney's, Bidens etc etc look really left comparatively but they're really very close to the centre. Castro and Buttigieg are a bit further out still. It's only people like Warren and Sanders who are extremely left of centre.
     
    I honestly like a lot of what Trump has done,

    Such as?

    Edit: also not to derail the topic but while you bring up some good points, some of the things like Trump's response to Charlottesville or the travel ban have been so twisted it gets away from what was said or the original purpose/reasoning. The response to Charlottesville has gotten to the point of so many people denying or editing out what Trump has said that it's really gotten annoying.

    He called a group of neo-Nazis "fine people". And never apologized for doing so, even after one of them killed a woman. Like I said, many things Trump does should be considered unthinkable and unforgivable, and IMOHO, claiming Nazis are "fine people" is one such thing. Believe me when I say this, it will mark Trump as "the neo-Nazi sympathizer President" among his detractors for a very long time.
     
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    In my opinion you have his work on the economy, thawing relations with North Korea, his work to stop illegal immigration, the First Step law, the elimination of kangaroo courts at colleges and universities, and two good Supreme Court justices.



    Maedar said:
    He called a group of neo-Nazis "fine people". And never apologized for doing so, even after one of them killed a woman. Like I said, many things Trump does should be considered unthinkable and unforgivable, and IMOHO, claiming Nazis are "fine people" is one such thing. Believe me when I say this, it will mark Trump as "the neo-Nazi sympathizer President" among his detractors for a very long time.

    Here are his remarks

    You had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. ... I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name. ... So you know what, it's fine. You're changing history. You're changing culture. And you had people — and I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the White nationalists, because they should be condemned totally — but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and White nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people. But you also had troublemakers, and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group."

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/3588970002

    Saying he was talking about Neo Nazis is false.

    gimmiepie said:
    Like I said earlier, while some democrats like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, are definitely quite far left, most of the democrats are only a little left of Centre. The polarized party politics in the US have really distorted perceptions of how far left or right people are I feel. People see left and right as synonymous with democrat and republican respectively and this doesn't paint the most accurate picture.

    For example, Trump being so far right means people like the Clintons, DeLaney's, Bidens etc etc look really left comparatively but they're really very close to the centre. Castro and Buttigieg are a bit further out still. It's only people like Warren and Sanders who are extremely left of centre.

    That is one view to hold, but I would counter by noting that the Democrats recent use of attacking former President Barack Obama for his policies shows a considerable shift to the left compared to where the party was at 5 or 10 years ago. Many polices exposed by even Castro or Buttigieg would be considered unthinkable to utter back in say 2008.
     
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    I don't really think that the democratic party has significantly shifted more to the left, just given the appearance that they have. Sure, the majority of the candidates have voiced some degree of support for ideas and policies more left than has been typical of the DNC for the past decade, have taken stabs at moderate/centrist things, but how many of them truly believe in these things and would be willing to pursue them if they became president, and aren't just saying it to get elected? I have a hard time believing that the known moderates genuinely wish to pursue a quality healthcare system, or tackle the U.S.'s issues with the ultra-rich, and so on. On top of that, the right would probably actually prefer it if the left as a whole gets painted as super far left.
     
    In my opinion you have his work on the economy

    A common view by his constituents which is an exaggerated view of the facts, as this article shows:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/08/20/trump-v-obama-economy-charts/

    ...thawing relations with North Korea...

    He's made them worse, quickly forgiving Kim Jong Un for the murder of Otto Warmbier and turning a blind eye to their renewed missile testing.

    ...the elimination of kangaroo courts at colleges and universities...

    Define "kangaroo courts". I should add he famously claimed he "loves the poorly educated" and appointed a Sec. of Education who claimed grizzly bear attacks on schools made it necessary to arm teachers.

    ...his work to stop illegal immigration...

    Spreading blatant lies from the start, including conspiracy theories of Mexican "invasion" and immigrants spreading smallpox and other diseases, trying to deny visas to everyone, wasting money on his dreams of a Wall which he has yet to lay the foundation for, suggesting ICE shoot immigrants trying to enter (a war crime, btw), making ludicrous suggestions about building moats full of snakes and alligators, tearing families apart, and again, jailing children, a crime which, again, should be seen as unthinkable.

    As for your final comment:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmaZR8E12bs

    Are you seriously trying to ask us to deny the evidence of our eyes and ears? Trump was defending a group of neo-Nazis. James Alex Fields Jr. (who plead guilty to avoid the death penalty) was an admitted white supremacist. They were chanting "Blood and Soil", a well-known slogan of actual Nazis.

    There are never "fine people" in such groups. Any "fine people" would not join such groups intentionally (except police with the intent to work undercover), and those who do so by accident leave at the first opportunity.

    If I'm not mistaken, you live in Japan, a nation who regards its alliance with Germany during World War II to be a shameful and regretful part of their history; try this: Ask anyone you associate with what their views would be on such a group called "fine people". Show them the quote you showed me. I doubt anyone there would side with you on it.

    Edit: Anther thing, ALT, if I may be blunt, you're showing something I regard as the biggest fault of Trump's supporters and Trump himself. Trump's greatest fault is his inability to apologize and his absolute refusal to acknowledge that anything he did was wrong. Regrettably, his supporters follow suit, unable to admit that anything he does falls short of perfect.
     
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    Edit: Anther thing, ALT, if I may be blunt, you're showing something I regard as the biggest fault of Trump's supporters and Trump himself. Trump's greatest fault is his inability to apologize and his absolute refusal to acknowledge that anything he did was wrong. Regrettably, his supporters follow suit, unable to admit that anything he does falls short of perfect. And I find it kind of sad, really.
    While it's fine to claim that you see that as a flaw of Trump and his supporters, it is best to avoid trying to use emotional arguments like these towards other users here.
     
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