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For me there is no proof that Red (or Blue) are great pokemon trainers

  • 112
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    Red doesn't exist in Pokemon Red rather some imposter who has some other name exists. Red is such a non-person that no one even his mother doesn't know even if he is a boy or a girl. let alone his name nor Blue's name Everyone maybe thinks he got to be the champion. Is there cannon proof?
     
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    Went into Crystal. Talked to Red's mother.
    "I worry about RED getting hurt or sick, but he's a boy. I'm proud that he is doing what he wants to do."

    Gave Red the strongest Pokemon in the game often. Shows up in Silver Cave in Gold/Silver/Crystal, the Battle Tree in Sun/Moon, the World Tournament in Black 2/White 2, Let's Go, and Stadium 2.

    Spoke with Daisy at Blue's House.
    "Hi! My kid brother is the GYM LEADER in VIRIDIAN CITY."

    Considers gym leaders generally strong trainers. Also sometimes appears alongside Red, such as at the Battle Tree.
     

    Sweet Serenity

    Advocate of Truth
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    Red doesn't exist in Pokemon Red rather some imposter who has some other name exists. Red is such a non-person that no one even his mother doesn't know even if he is a boy or a girl. let alone his name nor Blue's name Everyone maybe thinks he got to be the champion. Is there cannon proof?

    Is this post a joke or not?
     
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    Is any proof that he is anything but a grinder pokemon trainer- one that never plays or never treats pokemon with any respect?
     
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    No not a joke. I saw a What if Red trained Ash on Youtube and I thought that rubbish- Red doesn't speak and I think he doesn't speak because he despises pokemon (that don't help him win very fast) and the pokecommunity.
     
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    Im pretty sure in gold/silver/crystal you can go to pallet town and talk to both RED and BLUES mom/sister respectively who mentions both by name. Red is also the protagonist from the prior game who became a champion and blue is now a gym leader. So yeah both exist and are pretty strong
     

    Sweet Serenity

    Advocate of Truth
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    No not a joke. I saw a What if Red trained Ash on Youtube and I thought that rubbish- Red doesn't speak and I think he doesn't speak because he despises pokemon (that don't help him win very fast) and the pokecommunity.

    Literally nothing you said makes any sense. If you're not joking, what exactly are you getting at here?
     
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    Do you agree or disagree that Red has all of 2 lines other than Yes or No in Pokemon Red and Pokemon Fire Red? Or the Pokemon games have no nearly no friendly interaction options with Pokemon- hence it says something about Red too ?
     
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    I just read Red's first words "Words are unnecessary Let the Pokemon do the talking" - confirming to me that he is piece of work. Pokemon are for battling with. He never said anything nice to Pokemon.
     

    Palamon

    Silence is Purple
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    Just because Red doesn't speak doesn't mean he's not a person. People with mutism are still people.

    & There is proof.

    Blue became a gym leader and is in the Kanto PWT tournament. Red is in the champion bracket of it. If they weren't great, neither of them would be in this tournament.

    & They wouldn't be in the battle tree, either.
     
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    Red became champion because he can grind through battles and everything is handed to him. Red is not mute- he chooses not speak because his words would be offensive to Pokemon and the Pokemon community- he is product of the community- it is totally natural for him to despise Pokemon and Pokedex and Pokemon Professors- they level slowly, he gets a Pokedex which actually contains all details of nearly Pokemon but he can't see it when he needs it- Pokemon Prof is BS. Having powerful pokemon is not proof of being a great pokemon trainer. Red is a monster.

    Ash never had the choice to grind. He is product of the Pokemon community but never has everything handed to him. He is not great but not awful.
     
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    Technically no, there is no actual in-game proof that Red is a great trainer if that's what you mean. In fact the same applies to other characters... do we actually have any proof that Steven, Cynthia, Lance, or whatever champion are the strongest trainers in their respective regions? No, they just have better mons and higher levels, and that's it.

    Red is not even an actual character, "Red" was originally the player, so he was as good or bad trainer as the player was. He became a character in Gen 2, and then again, his team is nothing extraordinary, it's just the game giving his team insanely high levels to illustrate how "strong" he supposedly is.
     

    Duck

    🦆 quack quack
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    Just a reminder that being non-verbal / low-verbal does not imply being a cold or bad person (or any other kind of negative attribute, for that matter).

    Implying that is the case without any other kind of supporting evidence is ableist.
     

    Duck

    🦆 quack quack
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    Now for some of the points raised by cloa.

    Red is such a non-person that no one even his mother doesn't know even if he is a boy or a girl
    You're thinking of Professor Oak, not Ash's mother, plus the intro section isn't really meant to be taken as happening in universe.
    But if you really want an in-universe explanation for that, it's either because he's old or it's implied to be an unfunny grandpa joke (if we extrapolate what Blue says about Oak in LGPE at least).

    Is any proof that he is anything but a grinder pokemon trainer- one that never plays or never treats pokemon with any respect?
    Grinding isn't really a thing within the Pokemon universe.
    It's a game mechanic that's there because it's a game, it's never been a part of any non-game representation of the Pokemon universe.

    Plus, this isn't how the burden of proof work, if you want to make an allegation you have to bring proof yourself (in this case, you need to prove Red's a grinder) instead of asking people to prove the opposite.

    I think he doesn't speak because he despises pokemon (that don't help him win very fast)
    I've already addressed the ableism but the reason he doesn't speak is because he's a character from a JRPG in the 90s that's supposed to be a character surrogate.
    It's not deeper than that. Further depictions didn't have him speaking or have shown him to have a distate of speaking because RBY set the tradition that the character was silent.

    If you really want an in-universe reason that are plenty that are more likely than "he hates Pokemon" (which doesn't even make sense because Pokemon can't talk, he'd be not talking to people), such as: disability (talking might hurt or be uncomfortable), social anxiety, neurodivergence, etc.

    That being said, "Red is silent" is revisionism. Red did talk in the original games, the game just didn't show it to you. The proof of that is that Copycat "copies" what Red (or Gold or any other protagonist for that matter) is saying and the game shows that and Copycat does say she's copying the player.

    But Red being silent stuck in the general mind despite it just being a game limitation of the time / a character surrogate thing so TPC went with it.

    Also, Red has an Espeon in GSC. That's a friendship evolution and the designated "I despise Pokemon that don't help me win very fast" character of those games explicitly could not get a friendship evolution until he discovered that was wrong, actually, so your theory doesn't carry a lot of weight.

    Or the Pokemon games have no nearly no friendly interaction options with Pokemon- hence it says something about Red too ?
    Early Pokemon games have nearly to no friendly interaction options because they were made for hardware that has less memory than a toaster.
    It says absolutely nothing about the characters.

    I just read Red's first words "Words are unnecessary Let the Pokemon do the talking" - confirming to me that he is piece of work. Pokemon are for battling with.
    Those are two separate lines, and you're not taking the context of either in consideration. Not to mention the two whole other lines / scenes in between those.

    Flint asks "How do you give commands to your Pokemon in battle without talking?"
    The Masters player says "Maybe they understand each other without words?"
    Red looks at Charizard, then jokingly say "Words are unnecessary."

    Red's saying "I'm so close to my Pokemon that I don't need to say words, they just know me that well."

    I can't find the exact context of that second line you mentioned of "Let the Pokemon do the talking." anywhere in an easily searchable format right now, but if I had to guess, the context is that it's being said right before a battle.

    It's basically the Pokemon version of "Let the ball do the talking" or "Let's talk with our fists." that shows up occasionally in shounen manga / anime or cheesy sports stories.

    Red became champion because he can grind through battles and everything is handed to him.
    Again, grinding isn't really a thing outside of actual games. There's no reason to believe he did any grinding or that grinding or levels are a thing outside of the videogame representation of Pokemon.

    Even if they are things, grinding's basically training, and from a game perspective, it increases the Pokemon's bond with the trainer. That wouldn't even be a bad thing.

    Plus, Red got pretty much nothing handed to him in the games outside of a few gift Pokemon? Red's final team is widely inspired by Ash and not actually representative of a team he could feasibly get before like LGPE, (in which he could feasibly capture all of those Pokémon by himself).
     
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    No reason they couldn't have had a very basic interaction scene such as Pokemon shown and Pokemon cries and even food shown. It just in their nature to consider Pokemon as anything other battle things. I accept that I metagamed to say grinding but the fact that Red has to do repetitive battles which mostly do the same attack sequence over and over. Saying batttles are training is like saying tests teach you things other than how to do tests.

    No reason Red couldn't have said I owe it all my Pokemon. They are my friends.
     

    Duck

    🦆 quack quack
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    No reason they couldn't have had a very basic interaction scene such as Pokemon shown and Pokemon cries and even food shown.

    I don't think you understand the situation here. Pokemon Red / Blue was made for a chipset whose best known use nowadays (after the Game Boy, of course) are calculators.
    Pokemon Red itself fits in 512 KB of data. To put it in perspective, of how little that is, that's only barely enough for 64 copies of your (compressed) avatar.

    Music, images, making the scene, etc. all take up a lot of space in the cartridge. There was no space to do this kind of thing.
    They also didn't really have the time or money since GameFreak was a poor studio making games for a handheld that was nearing its end of life.

    And we know this because they did eventually include these kind of systems when they had more resources.

    Yellow had a precursor to friendship and interaction,
    GSC introduced friendship,
    Platinum had the Amity Square,
    HGSS had Pokémon following you / being able to interact with you,
    XY introduced affection.

    It just in their nature to consider Pokemon as anything other battle things.
    I'm sorry but unless you have some evidence to back this up, this is just your headcanon. Not only that but I've already mentioned evidence against this in my last post.

    If you still want to headcanon that Red is a jerk for whatever reason, that's fine (as long as it's not for ableist reasons). But that'd be a headcanon and you'd still need to understand that this is simply not how he's written in the pieces of media he shows up.

    I accept that I metagamed to say grinding but the fact that Red has to do repetitive battles which mostly do the same attack sequence over and over. Saying batttles are training is like saying tests teach you things other than how to do tests.
    He's a Pokemon trainer, that means that he trains Pokemon to battle other Pokémon.
    Therefore battling other Pokémon is training to battle other Pokémon.

    Whether it's the same attack sequence or not is irrelevant, it just means he and his Pokémon are strong enough that they can use the same sequences over and over because knowing what's coming doesn't mean you can stop what's coming.

    And off-topic but the whole point of tests is that they don't teach, they evaluate what you've already (supposedly) been taught. If they're a good evaluation method or not is a different conversation altogether, but you might want to rethink your metaphors because they're just kinda broken.

    No reason Red couldn't have said I owe it all my Pokemon. They are my friends.
    The first and the only necessary reason is that he's low verbal and avoid speaking in general. Period.
    If someone doesn't want to talk for whatever reason, they don't have to.

    But even then there are still many other reasons such as the fact that he has been characterized as being very close to his Pokemon.
    There are many ways to express love and affection and as the saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

    Or the fact that very few (if any at all) other important characters in the main series games have ever said something to the tune of this in the games.
    It's just not something that people usually say in Pokemon games, probably because it pretty much goes without saying since the games characterize everybody as "loving Pokemon trainers that love Pokemon" until otherwise stated.

    Based on this, I think you just have very different expectations than what the games were made for. You seem to want anime level "the power of friendship" speeches, which makes sense in the anime because that's how shounen anime works, but would not make in the games because it's not really a trope used in JRPGs / monster catching games.
     
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    "characterized as being very close to his Pokemon"- do you have evidence of this?

    "Music, images, making the scene, etc. all take up a lot of space in the cartridge. "- reuse of images that they already have is supposed to take up space.

    "actions speak louder than words." yes his actions speak loudly that he doesn't care about Pokemon at all.


    Character surrogate- yeah they they sure think that way when they force you to things. Forced walk, forced battles.. no reason they can't put a couple of words in your mouth.

    Red never got anything for free except for a potion at home and then a hundred items all over the place.
     

    Duck

    🦆 quack quack
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    "characterized as being very close to his Pokemon"- do you have evidence of this?
    Yes, the scene I have already mentioned before in the context of "Words are unnecessary".
    This video has a supercut of times Red (the character) talked in the games, there are many others on YouTube.
    The beginning is RB/FRLG stuff where, like I said before, he wasn't silent, the game just didn't show it to you.
    4:31 begins with Masters stuff and the relevant scene is from 4:31 to 4:54

    As a description:
    Flint asks "How do you give commands to your Pokemon in battle without talking?"
    The Masters player says "Maybe they understand each other without words?"
    Red and Charizard look at each other, then Red says "Words are unnecessary."

    Red's saying "I'm so close to my Pokemon that I don't need to say words, they just know me that well."

    Plus, like I also mentioned before, the Espeon in GSC.
    Friendship evolutions need you to be close to the Pokemon. When someone doesn't care about Pokémon (like Silver) they can't friendship evolve their Pokémon.

    "Music, images, making the scene, etc. all take up a lot of space in the cartridge. "- reuse of images that they already have is supposed to take up space.
    Yes, because code also occupies that space. And some of the ideas that you've suggested (like food) weren't in the game to begin with.
    Assets take the bulk of the space of course, but even setting up an interaction takes a lot of man hours and a non neglible amount of space in the cartridge.
    They were programming in the early 90s, in Assembly and racing against time.
    This isn't the kind of thing where you can just drag and drop some widgets and use a nice UI like modern games.

    "actions speak louder than words." yes his actions speak loudly that he doesn't care about Pokemon at all.
    No more than any other character in the games, and like I mentioned before, this goes against established characterization.
    Like I said, you seem to want anime style of characterization for a character that fundamentally exists in another medium.

    Red never got anything for free except for a potion at home and then a hundred items all over the place.
    There are some items he gets from people (notably TM29 Psychic and TM31 Copycat) but it's far less than "a hundred items all over place" and more often than not they're the kind of relatively cheap thing you can just give away to children for free (Tea, Old Rod) or are only given after they complete some task or otherwise time investment (HM04 for finding the Teeth).

    As for items he finds on the ground, those are a game mechanics to incentivize exploration.
    Much like levels, they seem to not be a thing in the Pokémon Universe outside of the games (and a few anime spin-offs that are heavily based on the games like the Mystery Dungeon anime and the Origins anime).
    They're there because it's a trope in JRPGs that you'll find items around when exploring the world.

    Character surrogate- yeah they they sure think that way when they force you to things. Forced walk, forced battles.. no reason they can't put a couple of words in your mouth.
    I'm sorry, but it seems like you don't understand the concept of character surrogates.
    Of course they could put words in your mouth, and I mentioned before, in RBY it was implied that they did, they just didn't show it to you.

    They avoid doing that because the whole point of a character surrogate is so the player feels immersed in the world as if they're the character. It's the reason why say, Link from Zelda, only started to have dialog trees 25 years after his debut.

    JRPG protagonists from that era just don't talk as a rule, and they want to give the character the bare minimum characterization needed to move the plot forwards because saying the character is anything could break the immersion.

    The games weren't made for modern audiences with modern sensibilities. Attempting to judge them by this metric is a fool's errand.

    Either way, by this point in time, I'm convinced you're not really arguing in good faith and is most likely not even reading the posts I'm writing, so consider this my final response.

    I'll be watching in case you bring up any ableist talking points again though.
     
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