Foul language and censorship

[Nick]

Moved this to Other Chat for a more extensive discussion!

 

[Bluerang1]

Well yes. Modern vocabulary is bad enough as it is. Let them find other ways to express their feelings than been exposed to swears everywhere. The internet is also meant to educate, I remember the grammar police phase most of us went through. Broaden their mnids, don't fill it with things they've already heard shortening their intelligence.

 

[Ayutac]

I have different points of view about this topic.
First I'm against censorship in general right after being against insulting on purpose. In addition I think the words a person choose tells us something about that person. On the other hand, can I agree to this:

I think censors for some words are fine in a hi-I'm-your-censor-here-reminding-you-to-be-civil sort of way. You know, so if you find yourself getting censored all the time you might want to tone it down a little.

I already noticed myself tending to use slang and course words, especially I don't really mind because it's not soo bad with English as foreign language for me, than actually speaking like that in German. But with PC's soft censorship I think a moment about what I want to say and try to say it on another way (e.g. "get something done" instead of "get **** done" (is that actually censored? EDIT: Yes, it is :D)). Sounds nicer. More friendly. Creates a better atmosphere. And you can still be mean evil with reason sarcastic and/or constructive, even without these words.

So, regarding PC, since I trust the administration (for no reason, because I don't know them), I support the censorship.
In the general Internet, the same pros and contras apply. But I wouldn't like the thought of censorship in the whole Internet D: You know, because of possible abuse. Just let this censorship to sites, who specially invite minors.

I mean, I don't personally see why someone would be against censorship, especially if it's public places of the internet

nice phrase

it depends. i think that, for sites that are open to the general public (and thus can be accessed by children), profanity should be censored.

And with that I mean almost the whole Internet is public. For every site with locked content there will be a open accessable site with very similiar content. And a "Yes I agree I'm over 18"-Button doesn't lock a site.
And as said, where one thing is censored, other things will follow. Just too much abuse in general. Have a look at Russia, the media didn't told anything about the demonstrations. Have a look at Germany from before 70 years. When there is a possibility to censor for leaders, they will eventually abuse it.
For example, the PC admins can't actually proof which words are censored, because for a real proof you should check the actual implementation of the list with the word into the system and that the board is running with this implementation. If you could actually check that, that would just proof it for this instant, they may change it afterwards.

 

[Phantom1]

I'm under the common theory that if kids are on the internet that swearing is a part of it. I'm all for kid friendly sites, but parents letting their kids on the internet should talk to them about language because sooner or later they are going to run into foul language, censorship or not.

But I think it should depend on the general age of the users of the site. Actually, this is the only pokeforum I know of that has censors.

 

[Jack O'Neill]

False. Always is a bold claim to make that can be disproved with a single example.

Example: Two 10 year olds having a discussion on their favorite character in a show.

When I was 10, I was already cursing profusely. Hey, I can use anecdotes too.

That said, I never really understood why profanity in these parts is considered as bad as, if not worse than, dishonesty or ignorance. Censorship is just one way of sheltering trolls, liars, and demagogues by allowing them to disguise their venom under a false veneer of civility.

 

[Rogue planet]

Profanity ceases to be profanity once the majority of those in society begin to accept it.

If a small child goes around saying poop all the time some people would probably think it's cute, but if they're saying crap it's obscene. One of the reasons youngsters use curses so often is because society says it should be forbidden. If the stigma disappears, so does the usage. ****, crap, everything else used to describe a stinking turd are just words with a stigma attached to it centuries ago. It's likely the only reason sh*t is still used to this day is because of the stigma attached to it, otherwise it would have faded away like the rest of Old English.

Who decided these words should be "bad" anyway? One day I'm going to try and make fragglerump a curse word.

 

[Ghost]

Of course! If you don't censor it then young kids will view it and think it's okay. It's not something that should be blurted out and used by young kids. By censoring the words their minds can still be innocent and clean.

 

[Phantom1]

But then again, aren't words just words? We make them into what they are. I mean... **** is effectively another word for poo. The fact is I remember being a little kid and when I did swear, it was like it was fun, getting a rush like you stole from the cookie jar. (lol)

Maybe teaching these kids these words and teaching them what they mean and why we don't use them all the time would be better than covering them up, or just telling them, "DO NOT WANT". Educate rather than punish.

 

[Mr. X]

The words are not offensive. People have just been taught to believe they are.

 

[Ayutac]

Profanity ceases to be profanity once the majority of those in society begin to accept it.

If a small child goes around saying poop all the time some people would probably think it's cute, but if they're saying crap it's obscene. One of the reasons youngsters use curses so often is because society says it should be forbidden. If the stigma disappears, so does the usage. ****, crap, everything else used to describe a stinking turd are just words with a stigma attached to it centuries ago. It's likely the only reason sh*t is still used to this day is because of the stigma attached to it, otherwise it would have faded away like the rest of Old English.

Who decided these words should be "bad" anyway? One day I'm going to try and make fragglerump a curse word.

Totally forgot the society aspect, thanks for reminding me.
This whole thinking is a legacy of the aristocratic times, when a bunch of people saw themselves much higher than everyone else and were it materially. We have these people today too, I know. But the people from the past were used to show it off as much as they could. When the people had dark skin from all the dust and what-know-I-what from work, the "better ones" (short: the bos) made their skin pale. When the common people had brown or grey clothes, because everything else washed out, the bos where as colorful as possible. And when the easy folk used word to describe something as bad, the bos thought that would be naughty and so these words became "bad" themselves. But the common people also had some proud in being what they were, and so were they proud of their skin coming from hard work, their washed-out clothes from working in the rain and their words the bos were too fine to say them (a nice reference would be the first pirates of the carrabian movie). Even the common people somehow envied the bos, they had their proud. But of course there were exceptions.
But let the common people be the youth (besides the youth doesn't work so much in general) and the bos be the upper-class society, (and the middle-class, which was good as missing in the past, these, who admire the upper-class), then you see not so much has changed.
And so it comes, as Vendak already said, that the youth use "bad" words (with proud) because the society claims they would be "bad". (I think the best example in the world today is the censoring in American TV when it comes to the f-word. As a child, I just would be curious why there's a beep.)

Of course! If you don't censor it then young kids will view it and think it's okay. It's not something that should be blurted out and used by young kids. By censoring the words their minds can still be innocent and clean.

Btw, @Mr. X: Nice Morphing Jar

 

[Esper]

The words are not offensive. People have just been taught to believe they are.

I must respectfully disagree. There are many offensive words. For example, I'm thinking of one that rhymes with maggot.

But it's funny, with words like those. Usually two things can happen to them. Either we get people to stop using them offensively, or we appropriate them and change their connotations. It's kind of sad that the former doesn't happen more often and that we basically have to grow thick skins all because offensive people can't learn to be decent to other human beings.

 

[Oryx]

When I was 10, I was already cursing profusely. Hey, I can use anecdotes too.

That said, I never really understood why profanity in these parts is considered as bad as, if not worse than, dishonesty or ignorance. Censorship is just one way of sheltering trolls, liars, and demagogues by allowing them to disguise their venom under a false veneer of civility.

You can use them but to no effect. See, for something to be disproven when you use a word like "always", all you have to do is find one measly example that disproves your statement, no matter how farfetched and unlikely it is to happen. It still could, therefore it's no longer "always". However, to prove an always, you can give all the anecdotes you'd like and you won't prove anything since anecdotes can't show that something is true (or false) all the time, only that something is the way it is in that one point in time.

I did not say that no one swears at 10, I said that there is no reason to use profanity in a friendly discussion between two 10 year olds about their favorite character. Unless you can think up a reason why they should be using profanity, then that immediately disproves what you said. Which is why I recommended you don't use the term "always"; there are very few cases in which something is "always" true (excepting mathematics), so using it will almost always leave you disproven. All you have to do to avoid it is to switch over to "almost always" and no one can disprove you like that.

 

[twocows]

Not if it makes sense within the context of the topic and it's not directed at any of the participants. I think as long as people are just advocating and discussing things, it should be anything goes.

I think if people start attacking each other or getting off topic, then moderation needs to happen.

 

[Oryx]

I can concede that they can swear for no reason, but that doesn't mean that there is a reason why they're swearing. Which was the point. Of course, I don't really think there is a reason to swear in most cases, there are some where there is a reason (getting hurt and it just being the first thing that comes out, certain phrases which don't sound nearly the same without the swear) but in the vast majority of case there's really no reason to swear.

 

[Ephemeral Euphoria]

I would have to say that I'm against it despite the possibility that people who may not know of such words at a time may end up discovering them online but most of the online population would already know of such words for the most part due by the time they were on sites like 4chan or Encyclopedia Dramatica on a daily basis, then again though a 7 year old may end up discovering words online so horrific if he ever said them out loud everyone nearby would drop their jaws in shock but cases like that shouldn't be that common now to warrant that much attention but that's just my opinion on the matter.

And also what Twocows said in his last post.

 

[Ivysaur]

Here in Spain, swearing is not inherently considered offensive or negative for children, so we tend to naturally resort to that when we want to strongly express our emotions over something. Obviously, more educated people shouldn't resort to that, but when you see politicians using swear words in the Congress, you tend to accept them more easily

In English though, the same swear words are seen in a completely rougher light, being the equivalent of verbally punching someone, so only uneducated or "rogue" people use them frequently, and most people, if any, use them privately. Pretty much like being naked.

I'm going to give an example: in a Spanish forum I frequent, everybody, from the admin to the newest member, uses swear words frequently, even if only to say "****, that was a good joke". Here though, I have sent a good hundred infractions for swearing. So where is the difference? Well, I'm going to echo someone:

The words are not offensive. People have just been taught to believe they are.

Words themselves don't mean anything. The meaning is given by the people who pronounce those words. And, if the (stereotypically more puritan) English world considers swearing to be incredibly offensive, well, so be it. But that doesn't mean that other groups may find those words acceptable at least.

 

[Ghost]

Ayutac[/URL]

Nice post, even though it's so irrelevant. This is our opinions and you had no feedback to my regards. A waste of time!

Swearing is bad regardless of the location your in. Yes, it may be okay to use for yourself but not to others. For instance, when you use profanity around church members or community members you will just look down right stupid. There is no positive side of profanity! Young kids shouldn't be exposed to it or explained the definition of the bad words. Wouldn't it simply be easier to grow up and understand the meaning of these words and not use them publicly. Profanity is used excessively and it's annoying. No matter what is discussed everyone uses it and they sound ridiculous. Just depends how you want to be thought of.

 

[Oryx]

Nice post, even though it's so irrelevant. This is our opinions and you had no feedback to my regards. A waste of time!

Swearing is bad regardless of the location your in. Yes, it may be okay to use for yourself but not to others. For instance, when you use profanity around church members or community members you will just look down right stupid. There is no positive side of profanity! Young kids shouldn't be exposed to it or explained the definition of the bad words. Wouldn't it simply be easier to grow up and understand the meaning of these words and not use them publicly. Profanity is used excessively and it's annoying. No matter what is discussed everyone uses it and they sound ridiculous. Just depends how you want to be thought of.

Just like I disagreed with "there is always a reason for swearing", I also disagree with "you should never swear". Swearing, just like any other word, holds a connotation as well as a denotation. While it's very easy to find a word that's a synonym (the same denotation), it's much harder to find the connotation you want. No two words share them, especially the "safe" alternatives to swearing. There's also the matter of stress relief; swearing, due to its nature, is good at releasing stress that would otherwise have to be released in another, possibly harder and/or less effective way. Hurting yourself is the first example that springs to mind. I'm not one to swear, but if I hurt myself badly, I always feel better after a few swear words. There's your positive side of profanity. It may not hold true for everyone, but it only has to hold true for me for your "there is no positive side" absolute statement to be wrong.

I also have to add that it would be "easier" if no one did anything at all and just let nature take its course, instead of trying to stop anyone from saying anything. It would be 'easier' not to parent children at all, but we're not going for easy here so I don't think the easiest solution is necessarily the best one.

 

[Ghost]

Just like I disagreed with "there is always a reason for swearing", I also disagree with "you should never swear". Swearing, just like any other word, holds a connotation as well as a denotation. While it's very easy to find a word that's a synonym (the same denotation), it's much harder to find the connotation you want. No two words share them, especially the "safe" alternatives to swearing. There's also the matter of stress relief; swearing, due to its nature, is good at releasing stress that would otherwise have to be released in another, possibly harder and/or less effective way. Hurting yourself is the first example that springs to mind. I'm not one to swear, but if I hurt myself badly, I always feel better after a few swear words. There's your positive side of profanity. It may not hold true for everyone, but it only has to hold true for me for your "there is no positive side" absolute statement to be wrong.

I also have to add that it would be "easier" if no one did anything at all and just let nature take its course, instead of trying to stop anyone from saying anything. It would be 'easier' not to parent children at all, but we're not going for easy here so I don't think the easiest solution is necessarily the best one.

I do agree, it is a common stress reliever. The only bad side to that is some people can't handle it and go a bit on edge. They can become dangerous as the stress keeps building or it may fade away. Depends on the person.

 

[Ayutac]

My, my, the first real discussion I'm part of on this board. I like it :D

Words themselves don't mean anything. The meaning is given by the people who pronounce those words. And, if the (stereotypically more puritan) English world considers swearing to be incredibly offensive, well, so be it. But that doesn't mean that other groups may find those words acceptable at least.

But it's funny, with words like those. Usually two things can happen to them. Either we get people to stop using them offensively, or we appropriate them and change their connotations. It's kind of sad that the former doesn't happen more often and that we basically have to grow thick skins all because offensive people can't learn to be decent to other human beings.

Let's take a look on these offensive words. [some philosophy about the gay's f-word isn't directed toward gays in general today] They were "created" to describe a certain group of people with downgrading them as humans the same time.

Spoiler:

For me, "ignorant" is such a word and yes, I'm downgrading ignorant people as human beings because they freakin' don't use their unholy brains! (A good example how cursing could have been stress releaving but wasn't, because I didn't cursed.)

The problem for people is when the word targets a ethnic or religios (or sexual) group. Then it's racist/facistic and that's right. So (implying there's no one of them amoung us) we are the good ones, so we know we shouldn't use this words because of their meaning. If someone does it nevertheless, then there are (as I'm aware) only two options.
1. The person in question doesn't knows the meaning. (I think that goes e.g. for some /b/tards, wo never saw a ray of sunlight.) Then you can explain them, what they just said. Then they will probably apologize or
2. the person in question knowing the meaning stands to it. That gives us a good sign how the person thinks (as I said before) and we can deal with it. So not censoring these will be better for education.


About kids and the internet (because that somehow became part of this thread):

Of course! If you don't censor it then young kids will view it and think it's okay. It's not something that should be blurted out and used by young kids. By censoring the words their minds can still be innocent and clean.

[insert 4chan-joke here]

Nice post, even though it's so irrelevant.

The picture just seemed fitting (and funny, as least for me). I could have also said that it's nearly impossible to keep childrens minds "clean" in the Internet. Because even if you are an innocent child (like I was) you may will discover the dark side of the Internet sooner or later.
In my case (for example), I was just looking for some cool/sweet Yu-Gi-Oh!-Pics with the help of Internet (in today's terms: Yami and Tea/Anzu are soo kawaii!!1!). And then some unexspected Pics showed up and so on.
So, relevant to your point: Children's minds will not stay "clean" trough censoring words in the Internet. To believe that is naive. I would just expect a point of view like that from people, who are new to the Internet. That reasons the picture.
Besides:

Spoiler:

I even dare to say that it's a foolish idea to try to have the childs minds "clear" as long as possible. In general the Internet is a bad place and so is the world. Children should at least be aware of this fact, even if you can comfort them with the thought that they had luck being born were they were born and not in D.R.Kongo or something. (There are kids who kill people, because they are taught to.) If you give our kids the illusion of everything would be fine (maybe except for some bad guys, which are somewhere, but not here, and will go to hell anyway), they will be disappointed or worse. That would be a shame.
To make the world a better place, we first have to see and accept how corrupted it is now.

But since that doesn't support the discussion and is a little bit too subjective, I've put it in spoilers :D

And when I'm already at it:

I would have to say that I'm against it despite the possibility that people who may not know of such words at a time may end up discovering them online but most of the online population would already know of such words for the most part due by the time they were on sites like 4chan or Encyclopedia Dramatica on a daily basis, then again though a 7 year old may end up discovering words online so horrific if he ever said them out loud everyone nearby would drop their jaws in shock but cases like that shouldn't be that common now to warrant that much attention but that's just my opinion on the matter.

Besides the Internet offers much more horrific things than words (what have been seen, cannot be unseen and OH GOD THE PICTURES CAME BACK TO MIND!), as I stated just now, it's kind of foolish to think you can have a 7-years-old alone in the Internet without something bad about to happen. If you have the (as I would say, not so good) idea (but Pedobear would like the thought) to let your preteen surf the net, you should be at least be there and watch your child. When it get's older (10-12 years) explain things to it (as I mentioned before). Create a Internet white list for your child (or use an existing one), after you two agreed that would be the better for it, but be always ready to extend that list, if the new sites are "good". Else it will get this experience of getting the Internet cut down.
For personal example, my stepfather (a really useless one), cut YouTube and a browsergame out for me. Because I spent to much time on it. When I started watching porn, he cut down my whole Internet, because it was a "bad" thing. Never really tried to speak with me, never really tried to understand me. Never even tried to think about my freaking reasoning! I began to dislike him very much because of his ignorance.

Spoiler:

If you're interested: Turns out at some point I disliked so much for all of his foolish and good-for-nothing doing, that I left him and my mother with 17. Never regreted that decision, in fact it was and is one of the best in my life. Now I'm 20, studying math and stand on my own feet. Don't have much contact with him now (and don't want to), but with my mother and my real/biological father. He is the first very ignorant person I met, but as the Internet has shown me, all people (including me) are ignorant to some degree. And that there are a lot of very (like him) ignorant people (here I exclude me).

To unite part one and two from my post: When speaking about the bads in the world one should explain there are words, that are very, very, very offensive and if you use them, the ground will open and you will fall into hell you should explain on a good example how the other one will feel, when you do something like that. And this point, yes, I would generally explain a child how to humanilate other childs, but childs are cruel by themselves and I would tend to teach my kid the good old phrase "Was du nicht willst was man dir tu, das füg auch keinem andren zu." (Freely translated: "Don't do things to others if you won't want these things to happen to yourself.", it just rhymes.)