Game Development: Quality vs. Quantity

[Hall Of Famer]

I never said "you're not making a custom game". I'm saying is that moose thinks that quality of the game takes a big huge team of game developers and it not true. he even went as far as to say why spend time making custom stuff? well I ask why spend all that time redoing all the stuff that we've already seen and played. What I'm trying to say is everyone working on one game doesnt make a game good at all if anything it creates a bunch of havok IMO

No you said it, check your previous post and I hope you're not blind. Besides, I'm telling you again that you may have conflict with Moose, but you needn't have to be OFFENSIVE towards Pokemon HOF because of him or his idea.

 

[▲]

After being a PokéCommunity member for a year and a half, the thing that most bugs me about game development and game developers is that everyone has to have everything his/her own way Go complain somewhere OFFLINE.. As a result, you have an ever-expanding list of mediocre games in the Plot and Story Idea Space and Games Showcase. Right, everyone thinks they are leader material...not the case. If you have no skills, you're wasting your time. Especially the people who look for others to praise them in order for them to continue their projects...

And they usually have the same basic ideas Why do you think I do what I do?: you're a 10-15 year old boy or girl in a region in the starter town getting one of three starter Pokémon Yeah? Then slay the cliches...it's all you can do.. The Professor is a tree and you have no father Trees are fine, but the parents being special cliche is annoying beyond words.... You go on a journey and the route names start at 1, 101, 201, etc.. There are a bunch of towns and some of them have badges. You beat all 8 badges to challenge the local Pokémon League That's not how a serious plot goes. That's how a stolen plot goes; all they do is take it from the existing games without using their thinking caps at all....

Sadly, only a small number of games can claim to have 100% completed the region In terms of maps?. Instead of making a completely playable game, people instead focus nearly all their energy on features Features are lame.. Features are nice, but what's the point of making all those custom tiles, 100 fakemon (plus all the old ones Now that's fail, and anyone who's halfway intelligent knows so.), and all those minigames if no one will ever be able to play them You obviously have no sense of adventure.? By that, I mean 99.99% of all Pokémon fangames don't have a demo out with a lot of hours of gameplay (with the number of bugs at a tolerable level) and 0.00% of the games have ever been finished. Games take a while; if you know anything about the industry, you know that some American developers (I don't know about the Japanese) have to cut certain features to meet deadlines (release, E3, etc.) on time. We don't have deadlines. You can see the issue, I think. Besides, we don't want hours of mindless gameplay...quality, not quantity matters. 20 hours is what I call a 'good game'. Though I shoot for more, 12 hours of a pkmn fangame to completion would be pretty filling.

Because of the ambitiousness and sheer impracticality of the projects, most people will work on them for a few weeks or a few months (some maybe a year or two) and then just... give up You had to make a topic for us to know this fact?. There are lots of highly talented game developers here, but this is how most of them end up You're right, but not all projects stop so quickly....

I think we would do a whole lot better as a community if we were willing to pool our ideas and compromise each other's goals into a smaller number of games And who is to make the concessions? Huh? This has got to be the lamest idea yet.. That way we would be able to put our heads together and work as true teams (instead of as one person is the supreme creator of the game and the rest have to obey exactly what the creator says Welcome to the real world, kiddos. You have authority figures.). If we do that more often, then the quality of the games will skyrocket No, arguing and politics will characterise the forum.... Yes, that means you would have to sacrifice a lot of ideas that you would like to be put into the game, but the best things happen when you work together These assertions are crap. Projects are driven by motivation, SELF-motivation. If you cannot make your vision a reality, then what's the point of making a game? I would never, ever work on a game where Team Lolrokkzors is awakening Terasupera; similarly, a very self-involved plot where you know the region's inhabitants by name that would attract me would turn off MANY people here. Artists? They've all got different styles, and don't go claiming otherwise....

That's how all the truly great games are made. ...back up your claim, or you cannot make it. You can't make a game by yourself, but, without money involved, the gigantic project you speak of is unrealistic.

I accidentally voted for Quantity, by the way. I meant to vote for Quality I voted for quality, too however, obviously we have very different approaches. I think you're missing the vision+initiative aspect--the most important piece..

I hate comlaint topics...instead of complaining, prove me wrong by acting and doing your said project. Make something I'd approve of--that'd be something.

 

[Ninja Tree]

I think we would do a whole lot better as a community if we were willing to pool our ideas and compromise each other's goals into a smaller number of games. That way we would be able to put our heads together and work as true teams (instead of as one person is the supreme creator of the game and the rest have to obey exactly what the creator says). If we do that more often, then the quality of the games will skyrocket. Yes, that means you would have to sacrifice a lot of ideas that you would like to be put into the game, but the best things happen when you work together.

I actually suggested this years back and got a lot of negative feedback. If we were to this, only the most respected people on these boards should be allowed to work on it.

 

[Neo-Dragon]

While I don't agree with InMooseWeTrust's post, I don't think people should bash him.
He has an opinion, and he is voicing it on a MESSAGE BOARD. Isn't that the point of this place?
There seems to be a lot of tension around here in the game dev section. Maybe we should have a voice podcast and all have a chat or something </joke>.

 

[Ninja Tree]

Maybe we should have a voice podcast and all have a chat or something </joke>.

That's seriously not a bad idea.

 

[Kyledove]

In response to the first post, I think that it's not really a question of quality vs quantity. What we need is quality AND quantity working together. The important thing is to have a balance. You should only make achievable goals (putting every region in is a bad goal)

With my mmo, the game is already playable, so you can just add the quality first, and whilst people play add more and more maps to the game raising the quantity.

Apologies if I misunderstood your point, I wasnt sure if you meant qual/tinty in one sole game, or between all games being made together on the forums.

 

[~JV~]

A chat for gd isn't really an bad idea, if hacking section has one why we can't!!! =0

 

[Neo-Dragon]

Maybe I wasn't joking (*winks*).
Ha, ah, it (the podcast) is an interesting concept, and it could be part of the news letter idea that someone else is working on.

 

[Ninja Tree]

Maybe I wasn't joking (*winks*).
Ha, ah, it (the podcast) is an interesting concept, and it could be part of the news letter idea that someone else is working on.

No. The podcast should be a separate thing from the newsletter with another purpose.

 

[h POKE]

No community project. Like kyledove said, we should have a balance between quality and quantity.

Moose, if you're doing this because you hate how volatile the industry is, cry yourself a river, but go somewhere else. For the newsletter, and even the forum, to be interesting, we need to have a variety of games. Besides, who wants to work together on a game with somebody they hate?

If I learned anything from AZ (delta), it's that a team project is bad.

 

[Maruno]

A community project would be a bad idea, in all likelihood. Chances are, all a community project would get is lots of people arguing about the plot and which legendary/legendary fakemon should be the star of the game.

I exaggerate, but that's symbolic of the problem. As mentioned earlier, people have their own art styles, so unless the game is going to be one of those weird arty ones where different art styles is acceptable (incredibly unlikely), it'd be best to stick with just a few who can make similar-looking artwork. And other problems arise, such as the scripters and others who do the proper technical work would just be put off by the hordes of people who only joined the project because they wanted a character named after them (or they'd be put off by the plot wars as dozen of people can't decide what the game should do).

No, I don't think that's the way to go. It's a nice idea, but unless everyone's going to work together properly (which they almost certainly won't) and share all their best ideas and artwork and what have you (which they'd rather keep aside for their own game so theirs can be better), it's just not going to result in anything good.

Instead, the bar should be raised for new project announcements. Proclaiming a new game that will have "all four regions plus two new ones", but you're "looking for people to fill every conceivable job" shouldn't happen. Instead, wait until you've got an interesting amount of work already done on it before showcasing anything. Also, the project leaders should be happy with handing over the project to someone else if/when they get bored of making it themselves. There's nothing worse than an otherwise promising game crumbling to dust because the original creator doesn't want anyone else working on their precious, but they don't feel like continuing it themselves.

But then, I know practically nothing about game development and what games are showcased/announced/etc. here, so I'm mostly just making up my opinion based on nothing here.

 

[▲]

This post looked fun to mark up...

A community project would be a bad idea, in all likelihood Good.. Chances are, all a community project would get is lots of people arguing about the plot Of course, because h POKE and I don't agree on anything let alone people who settle for mediocrity and less-than... and which legendary/legendary fakemon Or lack thereof... should be the star of the game That indicates that I wouldn't agree with you; if the star is a legendary pkmn, it obviously detracts from the protagonist(s)..

I exaggerate That was litotes if you ask me..., but that's symbolic of the problem. As mentioned earlier Thanks., people have their own art styles, so unless the game is going to be one of those weird arty ones where different art styles is acceptable (incredibly unlikely I actually wanna see one of those...no art style is an art style if you're postmodern.), it'd be best to stick with just a few who can make similar-looking artwork. And other problems arise, such as the scripters and others who do the proper technical work would just be put off by the hordes of people who only joined the project because they wanted a character named after them That's just lame... (or they'd be put off by the plot wars as dozen of people can't decide what the game should do Take the larger picture (which you're missing): nobody would be willing to make the necessary concessions. I, for example, would not defer to really anyone else in terms of the plot 'cause, usually, that means dilution. Similarly, other people won't let me fly away with it, either.).

No, I don't think that's the way to go. It's a nice idea No, it isn't..., but unless everyone's going to work together properly (which they almost certainly won't) Not possible...again, it has the same core issue as Marxism--incentives. and share all their best ideas and artwork and what have you (which they'd rather keep aside for their own game I think the diea is to clean the boards of Malachite, Moonlight, Acanthite, Carbon, Uranium, etc...until we all join Hall of Fame. Then we'd all be working on 'our' game...of course, it'd never go. The fact that Moose hasn't followed up verifies that. so theirs can be better), it's just not going to result in anything good.

Instead, the bar should be raised for new project announcements. Proclaiming a new game that will have "all four regions plus two new ones Gag me.", but you're "looking for people to fill every conceivable job" shouldn't happen No offense to some people here, but more games are like that than meet the eye 'cause several people don't know a thing about computers and just rely on Essentials.... Instead, wait until you've got an interesting amount Interesting amount? To some people, their awesome idea that I shoot down not even an hour after they post it is an interesting amount 'cause it's one thing to GET the idea. of work already done on it before showcasing anything. Also, the project leaders should be happy with handing over the project to someone else if/when they get bored of making it themselves They shouldn't be leaders to begin with if that's their 'plan'. You don't plan to fail; you fail to plan.. There's nothing worse than an otherwise promising game crumbling to dust because the original creator doesn't want anyone else working on their precious, but they don't feel like continuing it themselves. Got any examples of this? I'd like to see one...I don't know any offhand. Whoever they are, I certainly won't like them...

But then, I know practically nothing about game development and what games are showcased/announced/etc. here, so I'm mostly just making up my opinion based on nothing here I support about half of it, so it's not a bad start if you ask me....

 

[PokemonOI]

I think the diea is to clean the boards of Malachite, Moonlight, Acanthite, Carbon, Uranium, etc...until we all join Hall of Fame. Then we'd all be working on 'our' game...of course, it'd never go. The fact that Moose hasn't followed up verifies that.

OMG than you!.......I didnt wanna say it but um yes. I totally agree....This is my thought exactly...

 

[h POKE]

IT WAS AN EVIL PLOT ALL ALONG!

Moose, you should be ashamed of yourself, as usual. Also, that means I'm never going to do a review of HoF now... just because of these shenanigans.

 

[Tocs1001]

There's no such thing as unique ideas anymore, game making has been around for such a long time that most of the really cool ideas have already been used in most commercial games, it's just a matter of getting someone to implement them.

That is completely untrue, there are always new ideas to be had, Game making hasnt been around a long time, the earliest video games are like tennis for two and spacewar developed in 1959 and 1961 respectively. thats what 50 years? Other arts have been around hundreds of years and new stuff always shows up. Music thats been around longer than we can figure out, theres new peices composed and created every year.

The only shortage of new idea's comes from those who can't create them.

The problem of quality lies in two factors present on PC.

1) Developers are inexperienced, when someone first starts creating programs they create clones of existing games. Everyone starts small, creating Pong and Break Out and Space Invaders. Like those games Pokemon is remade.

2) RMXP-watcha-ma-call-it No one is actually developing a game, they are just plugging crap into an engine. This allows the masses of inexperienced to create a look-a-like game with no effort, but they have no ability to expand it into something new. I haven't used it, nor do I want to, but it looks like a hard environment to expand on.

 

[Hall Of Famer]

A community project would be a bad idea, in all likelihood Good.. Chances are, all a community project would get is lots of people arguing about the plot Of course, because h POKE and I don't agree on anything let alone people who settle for mediocrity and less-than... and which legendary/legendary fakemon Or lack thereof... should be the star of the game That indicates that I wouldn't agree with you; if the star is a legendary pkmn, it obviously detracts from the protagonist(s)..

I exaggerate That was litotes if you ask me..., but that's symbolic of the problem. As mentioned earlier Thanks., people have their own art styles, so unless the game is going to be one of those weird arty ones where different art styles is acceptable (incredibly unlikely I actually wanna see one of those...no art style is an art style if you're postmodern.), it'd be best to stick with just a few who can make similar-looking artwork. And other problems arise, such as the scripters and others who do the proper technical work would just be put off by the hordes of people who only joined the project because they wanted a character named after them That's just lame... (or they'd be put off by the plot wars as dozen of people can't decide what the game should do Take the larger picture (which you're missing): nobody would be willing to make the necessary concessions. I, for example, would not defer to really anyone else in terms of the plot 'cause, usually, that means dilution. Similarly, other people won't let me fly away with it, either.).

No, I don't think that's the way to go. It's a nice idea No, it isn't..., but unless everyone's going to work together properly (which they almost certainly won't) Not possible...again, it has the same core issue as Marxism--incentives. and share all their best ideas and artwork and what have you (which they'd rather keep aside for their own game I think the diea is to clean the boards of Malachite, Moonlight, Acanthite, Carbon, Uranium, etc...until we all join Hall of Fame. Then we'd all be working on 'our' game...of course, it'd never go. The fact that Moose hasn't followed up verifies that. so theirs can be better), it's just not going to result in anything good.

Instead, the bar should be raised for new project announcements. Proclaiming a new game that will have "all four regions plus two new ones Gag me.", but you're "looking for people to fill every conceivable job" shouldn't happen No offense to some people here, but more games are like that than meet the eye 'cause several people don't know a thing about computers and just rely on Essentials.... Instead, wait until you've got an interesting amount Interesting amount? To some people, their awesome idea that I shoot down not even an hour after they post it is an interesting amount 'cause it's one thing to GET the idea. of work already done on it before showcasing anything. Also, the project leaders should be happy with handing over the project to someone else if/when they get bored of making it themselves They shouldn't be leaders to begin with if that's their 'plan'. You don't plan to fail; you fail to plan.. There's nothing worse than an otherwise promising game crumbling to dust because the original creator doesn't want anyone else working on their precious, but they don't feel like continuing it themselves. Got any examples of this? I'd like to see one...I don't know any offhand. Whoever they are, I certainly won't like them...

But then, I know practically nothing about game development and what games are showcased/announced/etc. here, so I'm mostly just making up my opinion based on nothing here I support about half of it, so it's not a bad start if you ask me....

Lol guess I must say something about this since Moose is a very important staff of my Pokemon HOF team. He was having the idea of creating a community project for a long time even before he joins Pokemon HOF. I personally don't see anything wrong with it, and please be nice to him no matter if you like the idea or not. It's nothing about intention, it's just an opinion that most people may not like.

Besides, I have to point out that I have no intention in collecting everyone's work into Pokemon HOF, and some fakemon created in games like Acanthite and Malachite won't fit in Pokemon HOF at all. I'm also pretty sure that Moose didn't mean to "steal" everyone's work. He just wished you guys to contribute to a community no matter the quantity and quality. According to his opinion, every little help is appreciated. Maybe it's an unrealistic or naive project, but there's simply no reason to bash on it.

I agree with the point Maruno made that people have different styles in making their own fan games. I'm also sure that people should appreciate the diversity of each pokemon fan game. You guys may not be interested in the idea of fusion, which is completely fine, but it's simply no need for you to bash on this idea, and even Pokemon HOF.

What I have to pointed out is that ▲ is completely exaggerating both Moose and Maruno's points. If there's someone who has an intention, then it's gotta be ▲ who wish to see more chaos on this board, not Moose or Maruno. Please think rationally, everyone. Sometimes fights occur simply because of misunderstanding, which is usually caused by someone's malignant intention. It's great fun to see this thread developing into another fight like what happened between Waudby/Kyledove, right ▲?

IT WAS AN EVIL PLOT ALL ALONG!

Moose, you should be ashamed of yourself, as usual. Also, that means I'm never going to do a review of HoF now... just because of these shenanigans.

Lol, I never realize Moose has become this popular among this board...

But please don't make a judgment based on someone who's simply trying to cause troubles. This thread, no matter good or bad, is simply an opinion, not intention.

 

[Maruno]

This post looked fun to mark up...

I do wish you wouldn't. It makes it difficult to respond to whatever you said, and it's simply not what quote boxes are for - quote boxes contain what other people say, not your comments as well.

Not that I'd try responding to this particular post of yours anyway, because I can't really tell what you're talking about.

 

[Fraot]

...

Yes, you're right. The people doesn't seem to want to be different or originals. BUT there also "rules" or "traditions" on a game. You'll see, on Banjo series, RARE released Nuts & Bolts and, for me, it was ugly; I don't like the vehicle idea there (I hope all of you have played Banjo Kazooie), indeed I hate it.
What I meant is that some guys want to be original but they go too far of the game purpose. I have seen many hacks and games here and some have kids-like ideas and plot.
*You start with a lv. 50 pokémon and on the E4 you fight against a lv. 99 Rayquaza!!!* <- That's bad, that has not realism and even a strong structure. Also the features are very important but some people focuses only on features and that's the detail that usually make the... reputation? to go by the ground.

In my case, I'm trying to be original on my pokémon game and I wanna get out of the Nintendo's stuff but too out. A different game is needed but not too different because it would go by a road that not everybody follows (another example: Perfect Dark Zero).

In resume: The quality is better than quantity.

 

[Hall Of Famer]

I do wish you wouldn't. It makes it difficult to respond to whatever you said, and it's simply not what quote boxes are for - quote boxes contain what other people say, not your comments as well.

Not that I'd try responding to this particular post of yours anyway, because I can't really tell what you're talking about.

Glad to see someone who can respond rationally. I believe Moose made a bad thread and the idea is quite unrealistic, but it's nothing related to malignant intention.

I wish a mod would lock this thread soon, before small conflicts develop into chaos...

 

[PokemonOI]

Ok lemme propose something to everyone....for anyone that agrees with moose and HOF I'd like to see you all make a game together and let us who want to have smaller teams make our games. But anyway....Hows about you and anyone else that think that doing this will make a better quality game than smaller teams like myself,~JV~,NEO-DRAGON....etc. You guys should get together and make yourselves a community game and practice what you preach. The best way to prove to all of us that this could even have a chance to work is to lead by example. It couldnt hurt even though I dont think it'll work out at all. Putting down this proposal will only pretty much prove what we've been saying this whole time.