Garchomp is broken ?

[Anti]

Swampert hasn't been discussed much. How would a Swampert with Avalanche do. It can take a hit and has a high attack.

2HKOed by CB Outrage. LO Dragon Claws are no pal either.

Lol is the Mod thing an April Fools trick? ^_^

Anyway, mostly, this guy is ranting about how Garchomp can't be countered because of Sand Veil. Well, compare: You can't really say Cross Chop doesn't counter Blissey because it has 80 accuracy, so that doesn't really make sense.

P.S. Love the George Bush comment :P

No, it is your logic that makes no sense because you're only taking one part from his argument. That's essentially saying that he's saying everything with Sand Veil is uber. Think of that, except now the fighters have to invest a lot of EVs to OHKO blissey to counter it. THEN give Blissey a movepool that would allow it to defeat every single one of its counters. NOW imagine countering blissey. that's what it's like to counter Garchomp.

There are pokemon that are 100% surefire counters for Blissey, where even if their attacks had 80% accuracy they would still easily laugh at blissey. Garchomp has nothing even CLOSE to that.

Honestly, I don't know why people keep bringing Blissey into the discussion, it doesn't have much relevance to this as far as its dominance over OUs is concerned (which neither post I quoted mentioned but other people have).

 

[Xairmo]

What if you switched in Forretress to a Garchomp that has started Outrage and then explode?
And I agree about Swampert being a good counter. With Avalanche it seems to be able to OHKO Garchomp. And also Focus Sach Weavile, couldnt that be a revenge killer?

 

[Anti]

What if you switched in Forretress to a Garchomp that has started Outrage and then explode?
And I agree about Swampert being a good counter. With Avalanche it seems to be able to OHKO Garchomp. And also Focus Sach Weavile, couldnt that be a revenge killer?

That's usually how I deal with the choice variants, but you'll be blowing up your physical wall (and using forry just to counter Garchomp defines overcentralization). Swampert taking 60% damage from an Outrage means it is about useless too, so you'd lose two pokemon to deal with Garchomp, and it might even be able to switch out. if Outrage is two turns.

The annoying thing with Garchomp is that the steels that only fear one of two moves from it can't really hurt it much besides blowing up. If that's the best way to counter Garchomp...

I'm about 60/40 right now, 60 being with the uber party. There just...aren't solid counters like other pokemon have. That and the lack of valid argument against it being uber, while the party of for it being uber has a good argument.

 

[Xairmo]

What about Counter Blissey? That will OHKO Garchomp. Or Metagross with Ice Punch (Emerald move tutor move)?

 

[shedinjask]

Bliss can't switch in, Metagross does not like EQ. Not a counter.

 

[sims796]

But you see, this is the thing, the reason why you are at an impass, the reason why there is even a debate in the first place. As far as theorymon goes, we've all taken down our far share of Chomp. So it is hard to honestly say that it goes into uber without serious consideration.

However, these therories are all pretty true. I predict that in the near future, it will be a beast of unimaginable power. I am for it uber, but I will miss my Chomp "counter". But thefact that it has no counter, the fact that it overcentralizes the game is what makes it so hard to keep.

And it doesn't overcentralize like Blissey. Having a counter is one thing, as all teams must be prepared for Bliss. However, Chomp has no reliable counters, and in order to have a glimpse of beating him, we must use such a few selection of "counters" it's not even funny.


EDIT:Xarmio, listen to yourself. How good is a counter Blissey? It's awful. But for it to be used on just this one poke, wasting a perfectly good Blissey on one poke with a set that is fail otherwise, is the very definition of overcentralization. You are further proving the reasons why he should be uber.

 

[Xairmo]

Metagross could hold Shuca Berry to weaken the EQ. Blissey would switch in after a poke is KOed and then use counter

EDIT: Okay well my Blissey's ice beam has OHKOed Garchomp. I personally have never had that big a deal with Garchomp. Sure its one of the better pokemon you'll see but it doesnt seem to be of "Uber" status IMO. Its not unstoppable in any way.

 

[sims796]

Look at my edit. Meta sucks with Shucca. Blissey can't beat anything else with Counter. But for it to be used on just this one pokemon, is the definition of overcentralization. Along with that flawed strategy, it would be a waste of a Bliss, since it cannot work anywhere else in the game.

 

[Gengarchomp]

What if just certain movesets are banned instead? The pokemon and stats are not Uber, but it is the variety of moves are what is killing everyone. What about Lucario's diversity, you ask? Well Lucario is not the one pokemon that every competative team needs to have and counter, and It's stats aren't as high as Garchomp's. Maybe if SD or CB were banned from some tournaments, the metagame would become more balanced and Garchomp would not be held back by it too much.

 

[sims796]

Then everything else would be weakened. To a serious degree.

 

[Anti]

What if just certain movesets are banned instead? The pokemon and stats are not Uber, but it is the variety of moves are what is killing everyone. What about Lucario's diversity, you ask? Well Lucario is not the one pokemon that every competative team needs to have and counter, and It's stats aren't as high as Garchomp's. Maybe if SD or CB were banned from some tournaments, the metagame would become more balanced and Garchomp would not be held back by it too much.

The would be pseudo-banning it. You'd basically be nerfing it (not to mention a whole lot of other sweepers) to the point where this would become GSC again and sweepers would lose enough power that an epic stall war would begin.

Also Xairmo, I'm pretty sure it takes a TON of SAtk EVs to OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam. Even then, switching in on it simply will not be happening.

EDIT: By epic stall war I mean sweepers wouldn't be able to sweep, and his would turn into GSC (or possibly Advance) with more pokemon. Banning strategic items like CB and Specs really won't help.

 

[Xairmo]

Uber

This section is for Pokemon with insanly high stats that can't normally be defeated by a normal Tier Pokemon or they have a combination of huge movepools and gigantic overall stats.

Just quoting the tier resource. So after reading the above quote, does Garchomp really have that insanely high stats? And is it no0t normally beaten by normal tier pokemon?

 

[sims796]

Just quoting the tier resource. So after reading the above quote, does Garchomp really have that insanely high stats? And is it no0t normally beaten by normal tier pokemon?

No. How a pokemon performs in the uber tier is not the only regard whether or not it belongs there. If a pokemon is deemed too broken for OU, up to uber it goes. Wobbuffet is a perfect example. He sucks in uber, but is too broken for OU.

 

[Cloud_85]

I agree that Chomp should be banned, but if him is to weak to Uber (There are really good walls there) and to broken to OU, we're just saying that he will be useless. Maybe people will play with him on Uber, but he won't like Lugia after one reflect or Deoxys-A kill him with Ice beam, or Kyogre doing Ice Beam... He will be excelent with Groudon but....

 

[Leevis96]

Counter Bliss always takes down a non brick break Garchomp easy

 

[Cloud_85]

Actually he get OHKO by a CB Outrage... I guess he will die even with an EQ (I guess), so really sucks...

 

[Hadim Sinan Pasha]

well apart from the fact it pwned all my lvl 6's in my team during the Pokemon League Champion Fight, i found it weak. so it used EQ to own my Luxray. Big deal. it ain't broken, it's just a bit strong. it's like saying Salamence is broken. Both pokemon have x4 weaknesses to Ice so a good weavile (with the extra speed) could take it down in 1-2 hits. i used Palkia and used water pulse, it did more damage than my other moves, even spacial rend which has been replaced with earth power. anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber. if EV trained and has max IV's, then ye, maybe, but if it's up against EV trained, IV bred Ice type, well, you're, uhm...screwed? ye ye, screwed, forget about it, you might as well weep in a corner against ice types, especially if you bring him out last.

 

[Dark Azelf]

well apart from the fact it pwned all my lvl 6's in my team during the Pokemon League Champion Fight, i found it weak. so it used EQ to own my Luxray. Big deal. it ain't broken, it's just a bit strong. it's like saying Salamence is broken. Both pokemon have x4 weaknesses to Ice so a good weavile (with the extra speed) could take it down in 1-2 hits. i used Palkia and used water pulse, it did more damage than my other moves, even spacial rend which has been replaced with earth power. anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber. if EV trained and has max IV's, then ye, maybe, but if it's up against EV trained, IV bred Ice type, well, you're, uhm...screwed? ye ye, screwed, forget about it, you might as well weep in a corner against ice types, especially if you bring him out last.

lolluxraylol

This is just a thought, a hunch maybe, but you didnt read any of the frst post did you ?

anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber

So what relevance does this have, it doesnt have to be "good" to be in Ubers or even as good as other ubers, but if it is too broken for the ou metagame, it will be banned.

Salamence is easy to counter, physical is loled at by Hippowdon, Donphan, Bronzong, Slowbro, frkiin anything, Specsmence gets loled at by cressy Blissey etc, Calm Max sp.def milotics etc, Mix mence with BB/DM/FB/Filler Cressy, sp.defensive Zapdos etc.

Difference here, is that none of the above pokemon, infact nothing in the entire metagame can safely switch into a CB Garchomp, or any garchomp set really. The counters for mence were from the top of my head, i can name umteennmillion more, however, I CANNOT do the same for chomp, it has no counter.

I may consider using a CB Chomp on Wifi in the next couple of weeks to test it, that or try out my Bright Powder Garchomp as apart of a sandstorm team, then tell me which is more broken Mence or Chomp =)

i used Palkia and used water pulse, it did more damage than my other moves, even spacial rend which has been replaced with earth power. anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber. if EV trained and has max IV's, then ye, maybe, but if it's up against EV trained, IV bred Ice type, well, you're, uhm...screwed? ye ye, screwed, forget about it, you might as well weep in a corner against ice types, especially if you bring him out last

Im not even gonna say anything....... Apart from maybe........... sigged ?

Any ice type stupid enough to switch into chomp dies (also its guaranteed not to last long anyways, Stealth Rock says hi), apart from them not even being common pokemon. Ice MOVES are however common, still chomp outspeeds most with a Scarf on it, Also have you ever heard of the item "Yache Berry"....



Im not trying to be an ass here, this applies to everyone : - if you post without reading, your going to make yourself look a fool, apart from it being incredibly annoying and ignorant. I read all of your threads before posting, so can i just ask for the same respect, thanks. Ive even wrote it in huge Blue size 5 letters on the front page and still no one sees it apparently,so ima go and make it size 8.

 

[Ársa]

What about Counter Blissey? That will OHKO Garchomp. Or Metagross with Ice Punch (Emerald move tutor move)?

But the problem is, Blissey cannot switch in safely. Secondly, running a Counter Blissey for the sole point of taking out Garchomp is null. If Garchomp has run through your team, taking out your special wall leaves you vulnerable. Garchomp has no real counter with it's ability. Unfortunately, Gamefreak only gave it one ability. If it had two, we could simply add another clause. "No Sand Veil Garchomp". (But that cannot happen) Without Sand Veil, CB Ice Shard Weavile is a great revenge kill, but it still cannot switch into anything. This is a mixed bag in my books. I need to run some calcs later on.

EDIT:

Garchomp@Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 240 Spd, 16 HP (Min)
Sand Veil

Outrage
Earthquake
Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
Fire Blast / Fire Fang / Dragon Claw

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Physical Walls:

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Hippowdon = 49.76% - 58.57%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Weezing = 61.98% - 72.75%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Skarmory = 27.84% - 32.63%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Forretress = 26.27% - 30.79%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Donphan = 53.91% - 63.28%

"Supposed Counters"

Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Weavile = 163.12% - 191.84%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Mamoswine = 107.73% - 126.80%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252HP/6Spd +Spd Mamoswine = 91.98% - 108.25%

"Other"

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Blissey = 82.21% - 96.64%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Swampert = 62.13% - 73.02%
Outrage vs 252HP/8Def +Def Bronzong = 38.17% - 44.97%
Outrage vs 252Def/4HP +Def Wobbuffet = 62.07% - 73.18%

Not everything I wanted to do, but I'm being rushed to log off. Basically, there are some of the main pokemon. I will update later.

~T_S

 

[Dark Azelf]

But the problem is, Blissey cannot switch in safely. Secondly, running a Counter Blissey for the sole point of taking out Garchomp is null. If Garchomp has run through your team, taking out your special wall leaves you vulnerable. Garchomp has no real counter with it's ability. Unfortunately, Gamefreak only gave it one ability. If it had two, we could simply add another clause. "No Sand Veil Garchomp". (But that cannot happen) Without Sand Veil, CB Ice Shard Weavile is a great revenge kill, but it still cannot switch into anything. This is a mixed bag in my books. I need to run some calcs later on.

EDIT:

Garchomp@Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 240 Spd, 16 HP (Min)
Sand Veil

Outrage
Earthquake
Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
Fire Blast / Fire Fang / Dragon Claw

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Physical Walls:

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Hippowdon = 49.76% - 58.57%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Weezing = 61.98% - 72.75%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Skarmory = 27.84% - 32.63%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Forretress = 26.27% - 30.79%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Donphan = 53.91% - 63.28%

"Supposed Counters"

Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Weavile = 163.12% - 191.84%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Mamoswine = 107.73% - 126.80%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252HP/6Spd +Spd Mamoswine = 91.98% - 108.25%

"Other"

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Blissey = 82.21% - 96.64%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Swampert = 62.13% - 73.02%
Outrage vs 252HP/8Def +Def Bronzong = 38.17% - 44.97%
Outrage vs 252Def/4HP +Def Wobbuffet = 62.07% - 73.18%

Not everything I wanted to do, but I'm being rushed to log off. Basically, there are some of the main pokemon. I will update later.

~T_S

Thanks T_S, ;), Ice Shard revenge killing is actually harder than it sounds, firstly you have to get the poke in there w/Ice Shard, via sacrificing something on your team so you get a free switch in and hope to god its still locked into Outrage or its gonna switch out and come back later and then your gonna have to make another sacrifice.