Gay Rights Debate

[John Denver]

...the bible.
You can't use that as 'proof' of what a marriage should or should not be.

Yes I can, actually...

Marriage comes from the Bible. That's where it was created. Having marriage without the Bible is like having e=mc^2 without Albert Einstein...

 

[Chibi-chan]

Marriage comes from the Bible. That's where it was created. Having marriage without the Bible is like having e=mc^2 with no Albert Einstein...

...
So are you saying that people didn't get married before the Bible?

 

[Kura]

Yes I can, actually...

Marriage comes from the Bible. That's where it was created. Having marriage without the Bible is like having e=mc^2 without Albert Einstein...

Not really~ The actual Bible doesn't justify anything. It was written over 2000 years ago. We don't even know if the people who wrote it were just mental or what.
e=mc^2 has proof to it because it has been tested and is a true statement.

You can't say that the bible is a true statement because you can't prove that the person who claimed to say something in it actually did say it.

Also, people who believe in other religions believe in marriage, and they don't follow the bible.
If it were only created by the bible, many other parts of the world wouldn't have the concept of marriage.

Yet they do.

Marriage is a concept. An idea. People wanted to feel bonded with one another, so they made up this idea of marriage.

 

[LosPokeHuevosMas]

You all are debating this issue on two different levels. There are the political and the moral issues here and some of you seem to think they are the same thing.

John Denver (My New Hero) is arguing on a moral issue of faith. He is saying that the bible establishes marriage. Which it does. However that is not the point. I was more looking to entice discussion about the legality not the morality of it. Legally the reasons for seeking marriage are numerous and the reasons that civil unions will not suffice obvious.

P.S. Yeah, I am not Mexican.

 

[Cherrim]

o_o Regardless of whether the bible started it or not, the fact that marriage is now accepted broadly as the step a couple takes toward their own mutual unison as people makes it rather irrelevant in the discussion of the political and legal implications of gay marriage. Tons of people get married everyday without so much as a care as to whether it was originally started by Christianity or not since they don't follow the religion in the least. Why should an entire nation follow the rules of a book that not everyone in said nation believes in?

A little irrelevant, perhaps, but I know many churches dislike the fact that marriage is being taken from them and instead now also represents the unholy wedlock of two same-sex lovers. Thus one option is to simply rename it such that instead of being in a "marriage" they're in a "union" of sorts. But considering the fact that marriage, as a whole, no longer specifically means that of a Christian faith, I don't think it's a good idea. :\ For most people, it's more so the idea of being married (and literally using this term) to the one they love that iniciates the ceremony...not the legal implications of marriage. (Since by "chaning the name" they would get all the legal benefits of marriage but just not the title.)

I believe everyone has the right to be married if they so desire. Legally, in many countries, all citizens are equal. If they are equal, each and every single one should have the same rights as everyone else. So why deny some people the right to marry? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Chibi-chan]

You all are debating this issue on two different levels. There are the political and the moral issues here and some of you seem to think they are the same thing.

John Denver (My New Hero) is arguing on a moral issue of faith. He is saying that the bible establishes marriage. Which it does. However that is not the point. I was more looking to entice discussion about the legality not the morality of it. Legally the reasons for seeking marriage are numerous and the reasons that civil unions will not suffice obvious.

P.S. Yeah, I am not Mexican.

Well first of all, if you're looking for intense debating, I'd look somewhere else o.0; We're not going to fight like dogs if that's what you're expecting.

What's up with the Mexican...?

Gay love (maybe not marriage) has been going on since the Romans and was thought of then as the purest love of all really. Yes, there were gays when Jesus was around. He didn't smite them, heck Jesus didn't even get married or so we think. I don't mind gay marriage much, it's just putting Parent A and Parent B on a birth certificate...that just bothers me :S

So why deny some people the right to marry?

Catholic Church does that all the time, same sex marriage or not. -o- But I'd not get into that...

EDIT: LMAO. 'Is Gay Marriage Wrong' Banner ontop of this thread XDDDDDD

 

[Ryoutarou]

What's up with the Mexican...?

...did you even read the first post? The thread was about the Mexican president granting gay rights. Unless you're talking about the user title, then hell if I know.


I myself don't mind gay marriages, as long as it's only the legal act. A full blown church gay marriage is just something I wouldn't agree to, there's no reason for a religion to change it's ways now all of a sudden. If people want to get married, fine, let them, just don't let it be a church marriage. I think people prefer calling it a 'union' because the marriage terms did start with Christianity and Judaism. Before then, there really wasn't an established practice for marriage. Most of the time you'd have a daughter being sold or traded off for money or land or cattle. So in that sense, I can see why some people would rather call it a union. I really couldn't care what they called it, it's the same thing.

 

[Guest123_x1]

A full blown church gay marriage is just something I wouldn't agree to, there's no reason for a religion to change it's ways now all of a sudden.

I woudn't even call gay marriage "marriage" at all. Totally demeaning to the definition.

 

[Cherrim]

mar·riage
1.

• The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.
• The state of being married; wedlock.
• A common-law marriage.
• A union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage: a same-sex marriage.

2. A wedding.
3. A close union: "the most successful marriage of beauty and blood in mainstream comics" (Lloyd Rose).
4. Games. The combination of the king and queen of the same suit, as in pinochle.

Source: Dictionary.com​

Marriage is no longer solely a Christian or religious term. Thus saying gay-marriage is contradictory to the word "marriage" is not a valid point. <_<

I agree with Jorge. Legally, I think it should be allowed. But I certainly don't think churches should be forced to perform ceremonies for couples that do not bide by their religious doctrines and faith. (So a Catholic church should not be forced to marry two women or two men because such a marriage is not condoned by its laws, etc.)

 

[Alpham-A-Epsilons]

What :( He's granting gay marriage in Mexico man thats wrong on so many levels no I dont that should be marriage is only for Men & Women Man I'm so pissed about it It's where I was born In mexico hell now I dont want it to happen especially in my country

 

[Avenging Angel]

My opinon on gay marriage? Well, I consider it as a sin, but thats my belief.

 

[Alpham-A-Epsilons]

Right on Avenging Angel so youre Christian anyways why are the gay people and bisexuals its just wrong

 

[Cherrim]

Right on Avenging Angel so youre Christian anyways why are the gay people and bisexuals its just wrong

...you can't choose your orientation. It just happens that way, for lack of a better term--so why should something be instantaneously labeled "wrong" if the people in question can't even help it? The fact that they like people of the same gender comes naturally to them. I mean, with murderers and the like, they choose their actions. They have the choice as to how to shape their lives and that's how they breech the laws of both nations and religions. However, it hardly seems fair for someone to be "wrong" for something they have no say in. That's like saying people are wrong if they're of a different race--it's how they were born and they can't change it. They don't have that choice.

 

[Hitokiri]

Ooh, I don't like threads like these. They're always so tense o.o...but I'll try and keep myself civil o_o

...you can't choose your orientation. It just happens that way, for lack of a better term--so why should something be instantaneously labeled "wrong" if the people in question can't even help it? The fact that they like people of the same gender comes naturally to them. I mean, with murderers and the like, they choose their actions. They have the choice as to how to shape their lives and that's how they breech the laws of both nations and religions. However, it hardly seems fair for someone to be "wrong" for something they have no say in. That's like saying people are wrong if they're of a different race--it's how they were born and they can't change it. They don't have that choice.

Well, that's up to be debated o.o;; Though a lot of people say that people are "born gay," I just don't believe this is true. I think people choose to be gay or straight. I don't think there's some "gay gene" that decides your gender. Then why couldn't there be a "murderer gene" or "geek gene" or "athletic gene." I think it also has a lot to do with culture and the changing times. If people were born gay, then why is it that there are suddenly a huge mass of gay people now, unlike 1000 years ago. Shouldn't there have always been this amount of gay people all throughout history?

But, this is just my opnion ^.^;; please don't lock this or ban me or anything T_T

 

[Cherrim]

If you look back to more ancient civilisations like the Greeks, you'd note that homosexuality was widely accepted at the time. But then, I believe, as the Catholic church later gained power, it was suppressed and condemned, so now society's ideals as a whole are anti-gay. I believe there have always been gay people, the problem is they've just been too scared or too intimidated to be able to come out and admit it. (Note: I'm just going by what I remember here...haven't actually read the facts in a few years so they're probably a little off or something. :x)

As for the born with it thing, well...I still don't believe people choose it because honestly: why would someone choose to be that which society condemns? (The conditions are improving, so I can see some people doing it for attention--I think I know someone claiming to be bi just so that people will think she's cool. <_<) Part of it could be determined just how someone's raised. But then, even that has its decrepancies since people who come from strict Christian families can turn out to be gay too...and growing up as they did, it doesn't seem to make sense. o_O It could be a combination of nature and nurtute, but I truly don't believe that it's purely based on choice. But then, this is kind of a whole other debate, isn't it? XD

 

[Allstories]

I don't necessarily think that people are born gay, but I don't think that makes it particularly wrong. I think it's like acquiring a taste for a certain food. It's just a preference. You still can't really do anything about it.

 

[Pokedragonfire]

If you look back to more ancient civilisations like the Greeks, you'd note that homosexuality was widely accepted at the time. But then, I believe, as the Catholic church later gained power, it was suppressed and condemned, so now society's ideals as a whole are anti-gay. I believe there have always been gay people, the problem is they've just been too scared or too intimidated to be able to come out and admit it. (Note: I'm just going by what I remember here...haven't actually read the facts in a few years so they're probably a little off or something. :x)

As for the born with it thing, well...I still don't believe people choose it because honestly: why would someone choose to be that which society condemns? (The conditions are improving, so I can see some people doing it for attention--I think I know someone claiming to be bi just so that people will think she's cool. <_<) Part of it could be determined just how someone's raised. But then, even that has its decrepancies since people who come from strict Christian families can turn out to be gay too...and growing up as they did, it doesn't seem to make sense. o_O It could be a combination of nature and nurtute, but I truly don't believe that it's purely based on choice. But then, this is kind of a whole other debate, isn't it? XD

I don't care how it happens, but people can do whatever makes them happy without doing harm to others. Isn't that in the US constitution or something like that? (I don't know about Mexico.) That's my philosophy. The might be a gene that makes you more likely to be homosexual, even with the brain chemistry aspect, I think probably some of it is being raised or a choice. But I don't know, I'm just guessing, I don't think I know anyone who is homosexual or bisexual. Which I have no problem with, if that's what people want to do. I agree that probably it's coming up more because we have got pretty much all other types of people's rights in the US (again I don't know about Mexico) so now groups who have previously been hiding are coming out more to fight for their beliefs. I figure once we get all the human rights I'm hoping for an animal rights movement that might actually get something done. P:

 

[Kylie-chan]

Right on Avenging Angel so youre Christian anyways why are the gay people and bisexuals its just wrong

No offence, but nothing there supports your argument against same-sex marriage. o_O

 

[Hitokiri]

No offence, but nothing there supports your argument against same-sex marriage. o_O

Yes huh! The bible says a ton of times that a man must marry a wife. It says husbands and wifes many times in the bible. It not once says husband and husband or wife and wife. It also says that a man must not lie with a man as he does with a woman! o.o;;

 

[Pokedragonfire]

Right on Avenging Angel so youre Christian anyways why are the gay people and bisexuals its just wrong

Why do some people apply their beliefs to everyone? O_o You don't have to be gay if it's against what your beliefs are, but you shouldn't stop other people from doing it as long as it's not doing harm to others. You're not going to change these people's minds and stop them from being gay by being against them so you're not actually saving them from whatever fate the bible has planed for them.