High defense pokemon- Are they any good?

[Acewolf]

We all know the ones I'm talking about: Golem, Steelix, Rhyperior, Aggron, Torkoal, Cloyster, etc. They all share a few things with each other; massive defense stat, decent attack and low hp/special defense.

So my question is, are any of them any good? A lot of them have terrible weaknesses; golem and rhyperior take 4x damage from grass and water, aggron and bastiodon take 4x damage from ground and fighting. They also have low hp and special defense. I just don't see the point in having 450 defense when something as weak as Girafarig can take you down with one psychic. I know a lot of physical attackers use all physical moves, but you can't really rely on that. I guess if you know what you're fighting and it only has physical moves (maybe in the elite four) but I'm talking about online battles with other people, where you can't predict their movesets. Won't they just get knocked out by one special move when you send them out? Am I missing something that makes them all worthwhile?

Then there are the ones with huge defense AND special defense, same low hp, but without the high attack (bastiodon, dusknoir, shuckle, etc.) These ones, albeit having unfavorable hp, can take hits, but they aren't the best when it comes to offense. Actually, they're the very worst when it comes to offense. Shuckle has massive numbers in both defenses, but can it attack? I've never used shuckle, but it doesn't seem like it could do any damage with such an abysmal attack stat. It has toxic, but that's not enough to carry it. Maybe power trick, but that would leave you in the same situation as the others except worse. 200 hp and 30 defense.

Here are shuckles stats:

What's the point of surviving forever if you can't do anything to the opponent that's trying to kill you? Maybe I'm missing something.

Anybody ever used one of these in a battle (if yes, how did they perform?) ? I'm really curious about this; I want to use Aggron and Steelix (both look awesome) but I don't know if I should go through the trouble of IV breeding/EV training them if they can't take a hit and deal mediocre damage


Note: I'm not saying defense is bad. Defense/hp is usually the first thing I EV train on my pokemon, and I do understand the importance of taking hits in different situations. But how much is too much? Isn't it better to be balanced? Imagine attack form deoxys without the speed. Sure, it can kill all but extreme tanks in a single hit, but without speed (and without defense) it will get hit first and lose all its hp. This is why you need balance (you don't need it, but blah). Here are deoxys's stats that I'm referring to:

Thanks in advance for any insight into how this is supposed to work- I really just do not understand :)

 

[PlatinumDude]

To build on what colours said, there are more physical walls out there than just Shuckle. You've got Ferrothorn and Toxapex, which have good defensive typings to back up their solid bulk. The former isn't that passive because it gets high base power STABs in Power Whip and Gyro Ball. The latter is extremely passive because of its pre-evolution level offenses, but can deter physical attackers with Scald burns and learns Haze to discourage setup attackers from setting up on it.

 

[gimmepie]

If you think there's no point to high defense/special defense mon you've never had the misfortune of battling a stall team. From a competitive standpoint, you use these mon to block your opponent's momentum and weaken them with status afflictions - usually toxic. A great deal of these bulky defensive Pokemon also have recovery moves which grant them longevity that offensive mo typically don't have. You've gone and listed primarily some of the worst of the defensive mon. Clefable, Chansey, Skarmory, Celesteela, Toxapex, Mandibuzz, Tangrowth, Zapdos, Tapu Fini and Ferrothorn are all great defensively-oriented Pokemon viable in OU (well not so much Mandibuzz any more but eh).

You shouldn't just sit there and sponge attacks with these mon either, you need to play them strategically. Make use of your opponent's switches to inflict poison on the incoming mon or to recover lost HP. Then switch to something better equipped to handle the check or counter yourself.

In the case of Shuckle, you don't want to try something silly like Power Trick because that's signing its death warrant without it having a hope of ever doing anything good. You want to use it to set up Sticky Web and Stealth Rock and incapacitate the opponent with Encore and Toxic. It's a decent suicide lead and could function as a defensive pivot (meaning you don't leave it in long but use it to stop momentum then switch out) I guess.

tl;dr if you play strategically defensive Pokemon are extremely problematic for your opponent. Not always the most fun for the user though.

 

[Nah]

Just to touch on this bit:

Isn't it better to be balanced?

Any of the three general archetypes (hyper offensive, hyper defensive, balanced) are all fine. The more important thing is that the 'mon or team has the tools needed to fulfill its job. The Pokemon listed in the OP, as has been explained, lack the stuff needed to properly function as defensive Pokemon.

For hyper offensive characters or teams, the sheer speed and power usually makes up for the lack of defenses and staying power. On the other extreme, the stalwart defenses and longevity of hyper defensive characters or teams usually makes up for the lack of immediate power and low speed.

Balance is sometimes incorrectly thought of being the clear best because of the lack of highly obvious weaknesses. The lack of easily exploitable weaknesses is balance's strength, but it does actually have a weakness in that it usually does not have any immense strengths either. Sometimes you need the extremes in order to handle something, and vice-versa.

Depends a bit on the game and even certain situations within a game though, but this is just a general idea is all.

 

[wolf]

Anybody ever used one of these in a battle (if yes, how did they perform?) ? I'm really curious about this; I want to use Aggron and Steelix (both look awesome) but I don't know if I should go through the trouble of IV breeding/EV training them if they can't take a hit and deal mediocre damage

Aggron and Steelix definitely don't deal mediocre damage. Choice Band Aggron is incredibly strong with Head Smash and Heavy Slam. However, both are only viable in the lower tiers. Mega Aggron is maybe usable in SM OU, but other Steel-types generally outclass it, such as Skarmory, Celesteela, Mega Scizor, Magearna, and Ferrothorn.

Anyway, high defenses are great, but useful typing, reliable recovery (e.g. Recover, Roost, Soft-Boiled, Slack Off, Wish + Protect, and Regenerator), and utility (e.g. status, Stealth Rock, (Toxic) Spikes, Defog, U-turn, Volt Switch, Heal Bell, Aromatherapy, Haze, Roar, and Whirlwind) are usually more important. Even Infernape, a Pokemon with low defenses, was a viable wall last generation because it had all three of those things and was one of the few Pokemon that could check Bisharp, Scizor, Weavile, Mega Charizard Y, etc. all in one team slot.

 

[Somewhere_]

My most successful teams have lacked any kind of pure wall, whether physical, special, or both. I prefer bulky attackers that can tank some hits, but can also dish out good damage. In my opinion, while walls can stop an opponent's momentum, they dont to a great job of actually putting your own team ahead. Bulky attackers can both stop a sweeper, but also put immediate pressure on the enemy team. Examples include Slowking and Snorlax. Both have high HP and special defense stats, and combined with an assault vest, they can be very hard to take down.

Bulky attackers also dont get "stuck" as easy. There is only so much you can do with a Shuckle.

 

[gimmepie]

My most successful teams have lacked any kind of pure wall, whether physical, special, or both. I prefer bulky attackers that can tank some hits, but can also dish out good damage. In my opinion, while walls can stop an opponent's momentum, they dont to a great job of actually putting your own team ahead. Bulky attackers can both stop a sweeper, but also put immediate pressure on the enemy team. Examples include Slowking and Snorlax. Both have high HP and special defense stats, and combined with an assault vest, they can be very hard to take down.

Bulky attackers also dont get "stuck" as easy. There is only so much you can do with a Shuckle.

Knock Off.
That's all I have to say to Slowking. :P

 

[Somewhere_]

Knock Off.
That's all I have to say to Slowking. :P

Yea thats pretty problematic lol

 

[Zeffy]

Everyone has already said pretty much everything I want to say, so I just wanted to touch up on this:

Defense/hp is usually the first thing I EV train on my pokemon

Unless the Pokemon itself inherently is defensive, I would opt to EV train their best stats instead. Having balanced stats (or at least, trying to achieve it) on a very offensively-statted Pokemon only hurts its performance in the long run.

 

[takeKopter]

Not to mention trapping move like Infestation. Paired with toxic, it could be deadly.

 

[tricksbite]

I have good experience with them