6th Gen History Repeating?

[Pinkie-Dawn]

As the captain of PC Water-type club myself, I say the amount of Water-type in Hoenn is more than enough. :)

The lack of Ice-type is understandable considering Hoenn's a tropical region. It's just weird to see the likes of Dewgong, Sneasel, Cloyster, etc. getting stuffed in that Shoal Cave. Fire-types were on the right amount.

Then what was Game Freak thinking when they made one of the Elite 4 members an Ice Specialist despite Hoenn only having the Spheal line and Snorunt line (Regice is a legendary)? There's a reason why type diversity is the most important aspect of the games. They could easily made her into a Grass specialist with Roselia, Bellossom, Tropius, Ludicolo, and Breloom in the originals (with Roselia becoming a Roserade for ORAS), since there's plenty of Grass types in Hoenn.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Then what was Game Freak thinking when they made one of the Elite 4 members an Ice Specialist despite Hoenn only having the Spheal line and Snorunt line (Regice is a legendary)? There's a reason why type diversity is the most important aspect of the games. They could easily made her into a Grass specialist with Roselia, Bellossom, Tropius, Ludicolo, and Breloom in the originals (with Roselia becoming a Roserade for ORAS), since there's plenty of Grass types in Hoenn.

Yeah...GF made lots of dumb mistakes...like they should've made Agatha a Poison specialist over a ghost specialist. Also Lance should've been a Flying over a Dragon specialist...thing is that their original teams would have been 100 percent of those specialties...

 

[PlayRoughh]

yeah i honestly find it so weird that they removed customization?!? it better be back in the next games lol

 

[BettyNewbie]

Then what was Game Freak thinking when they made one of the Elite 4 members an Ice Specialist despite Hoenn only having the Spheal line and Snorunt line (Regice is a legendary)? There's a reason why type diversity is the most important aspect of the games. They could easily made her into a Grass specialist with Roselia, Bellossom, Tropius, Ludicolo, and Breloom in the originals (with Roselia becoming a Roserade for ORAS), since there's plenty of Grass types in Hoenn.

GF hasn't always thought things through the best when it comes to type specialists, especially E4 members. (Got a region that only has two fully-evolved Fire types? Let's have a Fire E4 member!) It wasn't until the Unova games (particularly, B2W2) that we even got a Dex that represented all types relatively equally, after all, and Gym Leaders and E4 members have always been an area where the "story" aspect was prioritized over gameplay, for better or worse.

(That is how we ended up with so many Dragon specialists that didn't have full teams or even actual Dragon types, for example. Storywise, Dragons are supposed to be rare, so there are fewer of them, but gameplay-wise, that leads to things like Lance having to fill space with dupe Dragonairs... Or, with dupe Dragonites.)

Everything about the Hoenn E4, in general, was poorly thought-out, though. They were our first non-Indigo E4, and yet, they all used types that Indigo Elites had previously used, as if they were meant to be substitutes for them in the same way that Beautifly was meant to be a substitute for Butterfree. (Drake was even the 4th one, just like Lance!)

Oh, why couldn't have Glacia been a Grass specialist, instead? We also had enough for a Ground E4 as well. Even better, why not have the Hoenn E4 do something else, like have color-based teams or dual-specialities (possibly even in double battle form)? Since they were the first non-Indigo E4, the Hoenn Elites would've been a perfect opportunity to mix things up and do something a little different with the League.

 

[Cerberus87]

Yeah...GF made lots of dumb mistakes...like they should've made Agatha a Poison specialist over a ghost specialist. Also Lance should've been a Flying over a Dragon specialist...thing is that their original teams would have been 100 percent of those specialties...

Two Gengars are harder than everything Poison-type you could throw at the player in RBY, plus Koga was that gen's Poison specialist.

Of course, in GSC you have dupes, but GSC has more specialists than types, and no Ground-type specialist. In general the games without two regions don't have dupes (which is somewhat of a drawback of GSC).

 

[adameastment]

I don't like threads like this, RSE and now ORAS are quite honestly - my favourite games to date. I love everything about them, even when I sold my Gameboy Advance and games, I kept the Pokemon Games just to continue playing them. I was literally in it for a generation (picking up Gold at one point) then leaving the Pokéfandom :P.

When playing XY/ORAS for the first time, being able to use an EXP share that will apply to all members rather than just the first was a massive improvement. For the first time playing a Pokemon game I was able to built an entirely balanced team and actually properly get to know lots of different Pokemon. In that respect, I think that ORAS (and by extension XY) have done a great deal to improve the enjoyment of the game for those players who either don't have a huge amount of time or (like me) find it a monotonous task and would rather just be able to switch between different pokes. I loaded my original Ruby game the other day and attempted Norman's gym, couldn't beat him with my Combusken and that was my only real choice to use - frustrating.

I do agree that occasionally Game Freak can make things a little odd, like has been mentioned the E4 was almost exactly the same in terms of typings and that kinda thing. Which I agree was a bit odd considering the Pokes available within game, and it seemed to be overlooked when you actually stop and think about it.

But, I do think that both times the games have been released, they've added elements that allow for people to enjoy the game more. RSE had it in better colour than the GBC, it introduced new stuff like better berries, contests, different elements like the Pokemon being able to look cool and that kind of thing. In ORAS, we've got the DexNav allowing the playing to gain egg moves on Pokemon and being able to find Pokes with their hidden ability, ultimately allowing more variation within teams, and once the players knew what they were doing allow them to build more complex and diverse teams.

The biggest issue I have, is that you effectively need 2 games of the 4 currently released this generation and then trade to get the Pokemon you need. I know this has basically been the case since DPPl, but when every generation's box legends and side legends can be obtained with 2 games (using the GTS to get their opposites) or using Bank and owning both games it does make it a bit easier to complete the pokedex. It makes you question Game Freak's reasoning for it, I know for some who don't have the cash to spend on the games it's more difficult, but modern technology makes everything so much easier and less social (although, internet use isn't Game Freaks fault - everyone uses it).

The whole Lati@s argument though, making it so it joins your team and you don't have to chase it to capture it (imo) is great. The entire faff of having to chase it down around the map is ridiculous, I'd had enough of it in GSC/HGSS when I replayed those games and had to catch Entei and Raikou. The idea of getting the other one through an event/streetpass is also great. Then having an actual battle, also great. Also being able to fly from a city to a specific route is amazing, a definitely improvement. Ultimately, ORAS was a massive improvement upon RSE and arguably it's also an improvement (graphically) on XY.

Overall, if you look at ORAS compared to RSE it is a vast improvement, I don't miss the Battle Frontier in all honesty, I still replay Emerald and I still don't get very far within the Frontier - it doesn't interest me hugely. Although, it would have been nice to see, but personally I don't think we're missing a great deal. Alternatively, you can compare XY to ORAS, which you do see some differences, ORAS losing the ability to customise clothing. But the things that annoy me most about XY? The constant "update your PSS profile" "check out wondertrade!", that was stopped in ORAS. The movement, in XY you could move in a defined grid - ORAS you don't! I love that.

I just feel that people are dismissing or unhappy with things in ORAS that doesn't really improve your gameplay, yes you were able to customise your player or do nice graphical things. But ORAS refined everything in terms of gameplay and made it much more fluid and nicer. It introduced Hoenn to an entirely new Generation and improved all of my favourite Pokemon.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

I don't like threads like this, RSE and now ORAS are quite honestly - my favourite games to date. I love everything about them, even when I sold my Gameboy Advance and games, I kept the Pokemon Games just to continue playing them. I was literally in it for a generation (picking up Gold at one point) then leaving the Pokéfandom :P.

When playing XY/ORAS for the first time, being able to use an EXP share that will apply to all members rather than just the first was a massive improvement. For the first time playing a Pokemon game I was able to built an entirely balanced team and actually properly get to know lots of different Pokemon. In that respect, I think that ORAS (and by extension XY) have done a great deal to improve the enjoyment of the game for those players who either don't have a huge amount of time or (like me) find it a monotonous task and would rather just be able to switch between different pokes. I loaded my original Ruby game the other day and attempted Norman's gym, couldn't beat him with my Combusken and that was my only real choice to use - frustrating.

I do agree that occasionally Game Freak can make things a little odd, like has been mentioned the E4 was almost exactly the same in terms of typings and that kinda thing. Which I agree was a bit odd considering the Pokes available within game, and it seemed to be overlooked when you actually stop and think about it.

But, I do think that both times the games have been released, they've added elements that allow for people to enjoy the game more. RSE had it in better colour than the GBC, it introduced new stuff like better berries, contests, different elements like the Pokemon being able to look cool and that kind of thing. In ORAS, we've got the DexNav allowing the playing to gain egg moves on Pokemon and being able to find Pokes with their hidden ability, ultimately allowing more variation within teams, and once the players knew what they were doing allow them to build more complex and diverse teams.

The biggest issue I have, is that you effectively need 2 games of the 4 currently released this generation and then trade to get the Pokemon you need. I know this has basically been the case since DPPl, but when every generation's box legends and side legends can be obtained with 2 games (using the GTS to get their opposites) or using Bank and owning both games it does make it a bit easier to complete the pokedex. It makes you question Game Freak's reasoning for it, I know for some who don't have the cash to spend on the games it's more difficult, but modern technology makes everything so much easier and less social (although, internet use isn't Game Freaks fault - everyone uses it).

The whole Lati@s argument though, making it so it joins your team and you don't have to chase it to capture it (imo) is great. The entire faff of having to chase it down around the map is ridiculous, I'd had enough of it in GSC/HGSS when I replayed those games and had to catch Entei and Raikou. The idea of getting the other one through an event/streetpass is also great. Then having an actual battle, also great. Also being able to fly from a city to a specific route is amazing, a definitely improvement. Ultimately, ORAS was a massive improvement upon RSE and arguably it's also an improvement (graphically) on XY.

Overall, if you look at ORAS compared to RSE it is a vast improvement, I don't miss the Battle Frontier in all honesty, I still replay Emerald and I still don't get very far within the Frontier - it doesn't interest me hugely. Although, it would have been nice to see, but personally I don't think we're missing a great deal. Alternatively, you can compare XY to ORAS, which you do see some differences, ORAS losing the ability to customise clothing. But the things that annoy me most about XY? The constant "update your PSS profile" "check out wondertrade!", that was stopped in ORAS. The movement, in XY you could move in a defined grid - ORAS you don't! I love that.

I just feel that people are dismissing or unhappy with things in ORAS that doesn't really improve your gameplay, yes you were able to customise your player or do nice graphical things. But ORAS refined everything in terms of gameplay and made it much more fluid and nicer. It introduced Hoenn to an entirely new Generation and improved all of my favourite Pokemon.

That's true, they did improve upon the old things in the games. It just doesn't have much replay-ability unlike FrLG and HgSs did...well this whole gen thus far has lacked that...

 

[BettyNewbie]

Two Gengars are harder than everything Poison-type you could throw at the player in RBY, plus Koga was that gen's Poison specialist.

Gengar may be a strong Pokémon, but fighting them over and over again is simply boring and doesn't reflect all that well on Agatha as a trainer, to be honest.

While she didn't have a great selection of Pokémon to work with, they could've done better than give her an awful-mono-Poison team. Ninetales has always been able to learn Ghost moves, and it's based on a legend associated with ghosts and witches, so why couldn't she have had one? And, in the games, themselves, Marowak is closely associated with the dead, and it's pre-evo can even be found in Pokémon Tower, so why not also give her one of those? I'd also throw in a Hypno, as it's a hypnotizer (an ability associated with ghosts back then) and is kind of creepy, in general. Now, her team would be Ninetales/Golbat/Marowak/Hypno/Gengar, which still keeps the "Ghost" theme and isn't nearly as boring or painfully easy to fight.

Of course, in GSC you have dupes, but GSC has more specialists than types, and no Ground-type specialist.

Yeah, that was sadly unavoidable, especially since they refused to give us a Ground E4 for whatever reason. Plus, GSC's E4 was one of the worst ever. Will was a horrid excuse for a Psychic trainer and E4 member in general, Bruno was as pointless and weak as ever, and Lance, bless him, was just a Poor Predictable Rock (a Kadabra with Ice/Thunderpunch could nuke him). Only Koga and Karen were any decent and even they had flaws (such as using weak, underpowered Pokémon like Ariados and Murkrow).

In general the games without two regions don't have dupes

But, at the cost of having more limited postgames.

When playing XY/ORAS for the first time, being able to use an EXP share that will apply to all members rather than just the first was a massive improvement. For the first time playing a Pokemon game I was able to built an entirely balanced team and actually properly get to know lots of different Pokemon. In that respect, I think that ORAS (and by extension XY) have done a great deal to improve the enjoyment of the game for those players who either don't have a huge amount of time or (like me) find it a monotonous task and would rather just be able to switch between different pokes. I loaded my original Ruby game the other day and attempted Norman's gym, couldn't beat him with my Combusken and that was my only real choice to use - frustrating.

Well, that's a big reason why remakes exist in the first place, to fix the flaws of the originals. ORAS did a decent enough job of that, although they could've stood to include more Emerald features (such as the stronger Gym Leader teams and Gym Leader rematches).

I do agree that occasionally Game Freak can make things a little odd, like has been mentioned the E4 was almost exactly the same in terms of typings and that kinda thing. Which I agree was a bit odd considering the Pokes available within game, and it seemed to be overlooked when you actually stop and think about it.

As I said, the Hoenn E4 just wasn't thought out well at all. I guess since they were the first non-Indigo E4, it's not too surprising, but they could've been better. Of all the types that were available, why use ones that had already been used by E4 members in RBY/GSC? Especially, when said type had next-to-no representation in Hoenn? (*cough*Glacia*cough*)

I don't miss the Battle Frontier in all honesty, I still replay Emerald and I still don't get very far within the Frontier - it doesn't interest me hugely.

I find it to be overrated, myself. The AI cheats, it's hard to beat without "good" (read. bred and EV-d) Pokémon, and it (along with the other battle facilities) just doesn't offer much at all for people who aren't into competitive battling. I would've much rather gotten some actual exploration areas instead of XY's battle facility, though.

 

[Cerberus87]

Gengar may be a strong Pokémon, but fighting them over and over again is simply boring and doesn't reflect all that well on Agatha as a trainer, to be honest.

It depends. If they have different movesets, they can serve different purposes. Lance's three Dragonites in GSC each had a different elemental move, and the L50 one was the only one of them to have Outrage.

While she didn't have a great selection of Pokémon to work with, they could've done better than give her an awful-mono-Poison team. Ninetales has always been able to learn Ghost moves, and it's based on a legend associated with ghosts and witches, so why couldn't she have had one? And, in the games, themselves, Marowak is closely associated with the dead, and it's pre-evo can even be found in Pokémon Tower, so why not also give her one of those? I'd also throw in a Hypno, as it's a hypnotizer (an ability associated with ghosts back then) and is kind of creepy, in general. Now, her team would be Ninetales/Golbat/Marowak/Hypno/Gengar, which still keeps the "Ghost" theme and isn't nearly as boring or painfully easy to fight.

Yeah but then you complain about Flint despite all of his Pokémon knowing Fire moves... Ideally their teams would be monotype, but Flint's non-Fire Pokémon at least know Fire moves.

That's too varied for an E4 member, BTW. Hypno has no relation to ghosts in Pokémon lore, and Marowak doesn't have any ghostly moves.

Yeah, that was sadly unavoidable, especially since they refused to give us a Ground E4 for whatever reason. Plus, GSC's E4 was one of the worst ever. Will was a horrid excuse for a Psychic trainer and E4 member in general, Bruno was as pointless and weak as ever, and Lance, bless him, was just a Poor Predictable Rock (a Kadabra with Ice/Thunderpunch could nuke him). Only Koga and Karen were any decent and even they had flaws (such as using weak, underpowered Pokémon like Ariados and Murkrow).

Will has more personality than all of the Hoenn E4! He uses unusual, out of the box Psychic-types. He isn't too strong, but his teams have character.

But, at the cost of having more limited postgames.

I'd argue there's more to do in B2W2's postgame than in GSC Kanto.

 

[BettyNewbie]

It depends. If they have different movesets, they can serve different purposes. Lance's three Dragonites in GSC each had a different elemental move, and the L50 one was the only one of them to have Outrage.

Big whoop. Doesn't matter when they're all outsped and KO-ed with Ice Punch. :rolleyes2:

Yeah but then you complain about Flint despite all of his Pokémon knowing Fire moves... Ideally their teams would be monotype, but Flint's non-Fire Pokémon at least know Fire moves.

As bad as Flint's DP team was, giving him non-Fire types was still better than giving him something like Ponyta/Ponyta/Rapidash/Rapidash/Infernape (which is what he undoubtedly would've had if DP had been an earlier Generation).

That's too varied for an E4 member, BTW. Hypno has no relation to ghosts in Pokémon lore, and Marowak doesn't have any ghostly moves.

Both things are also true for Arbok, you know.

If you're not going to put enough Ghosts in the game for a Ghost E4 member to use, nor are you going to allow her to have a varied "spooky-themed" team, then... Just don't have a Ghost E4 member to begin with? It's pretty simple. :rolleyes2:

Will has more personality than all of the Hoenn E4! He uses unusual, out of the box Psychic-types. He isn't too strong, but his teams have character.

What personality? All I saw was this clown in a silly mask who used a bunch of weak Pokémon that I flattened in no time. (I was actually surprised that he wasn't packing the powerhouses known as Unown and Girafarig. :rolleyes2:) Just pitiful, especially coming off of Clair and her Kingdra.

Having more personality than the Hoenn E4 doesn't mean much as they're all just a bunch of cardboard cut-outs.

I'd argue there's more to do in B2W2's postgame than in GSC Kanto.

If you're a competitive battler, sure.

 

[mew_nani]

Betty, concerning you saying that Lance is easy is very subjective. He may be easy to you because you took the time to grind levels and make a counter for him, but when I fought him I barely freaking made it through. Of course that's because my team was in the late 30s-mid 40s level wise and I didn't take the time to grind, but still I barely made it through with the skin of my teeth! It's easy if you meticulously plan around defeating him but if your team isn't overused Pokemon and you don't have a designed counter you're still gonna have some problems. I'm not saying he's easy OR hard; just saying that difficulty is high subjective and dependent on what team you have and what levels your team is at. Obviously it's gonna be a lot harder when your team consists of lesser mons. Come to think of it I don't really see you arguing much about Wallace or Steven despite them specializing in Water and Rock respectively. Sure it's not 3 mons of the same species but their team has shared weaknesses between Pokemon that can easily be exploited.

With that said however this gen is VERY similar to Gen III, and I've noticed Pokemon tends to be quite cyclical. There's an advancement phase where they're testing out new concepts, a more polished phase where they improve upon things and introduce good concepts, and a phase where they leave some previously liked things out and everything goes stale. The first have of Gen IV is very similar to Gen I, where they're testing out new concepts and basically designing an entire engine from scratch, and it tended to be bare bones and have an entire assortment from glitches much like the first gen Pokemon games did. The later half of Gen IV and Gen V is a lot like Gen II where they're taking everything good from the previous games and building up on it, and adding things that generally improve the franchise as a whole, like day/night for Gen II and seasons for Gen V. Gen VI is similar to Gen III in that even though it's polished they removed some things from the previous games while adding nothing in return, and in general it feels stale. Pokemon X and Y didn't have seasons or anything to really make the game immersive, and while they had models the models are lifeless compared to the vibrant animated sprites of Gen V. It's very similar to Gen III where the day/night cycle was cut and Pokemon weren't animated for the most part, where in Crystal they were animated, and until Emerald came along there wasn't really much added to the games even though they were 16-bit and colorful. Pokemon X and Y are a very good example of this, as even though they're pretty, that's all they are; they're pretty stale in comparison to Pokemon Heartgold or Pokemon Black. ORAS I think is like this too; it's a remake but for me it's inadequate due to them leaving things out that should have been there, and having no endgame besides a tiny little island and a small quest to justify you getting Deoxys, and it has similar problems to X/Y in terms of framerate and not properly utilizing the 3D feature.

 

[Cerberus87]

Big whoop. Doesn't matter when they're all outsped and KO-ed with Ice Punch. :rolleyes2:

It would be the same if he had Salamence, Garchomp and Dragonite, like he does in the remakes.

Both things are also true for Arbok, you know.

Arbok feels random, I agree.

If you're not going to put enough Ghosts in the game for a Ghost E4 member to use, nor are you going to allow her to have a varied "spooky-themed" team, then... Just don't have a Ghost E4 member to begin with? It's pretty simple. :rolleyes2:

Would you rather repeat types? Maybe have a Bug-type E4 with the amazing Beedrill, Butterfree, Parasect, Venomoth, non-STAB Scyther and Pinsir... All of them roasted by Flamethrower. That's no challenge at all. :rolleyes2:

Morty's team in GSC was less varied than Agatha's, but it served its purpose. Even with just the Gastly line, Ghost is a tricky type to get rid of at that point in the game. Alakazam is a double-edged sword because Gengar can fight you back (you don't have access to Psychic early on).

What personality? All I saw was this clown in a silly mask who used a bunch of weak Pokémon that I flattened in no time. (I was actually surprised that he wasn't packing the powerhouses known as Unown and Girafarig. :rolleyes2:) Just pitiful, especially coming off of Clair and her Kingdra.

Having more personality than the Hoenn E4 doesn't mean much as they're all just a bunch of cardboard cut-outs.

Of course you did, he's supposed to be the easiest of the bunch. I also zapped Lorelei to oblivion with Electric-type Pokémon, doesn't make her bad as her roster gives her personality, she's a beefier Misty like Bruno is a beefier Brock.

I like Will's roster because he deviates from the Psychic-type specialist paradigm that dictates he/she must have Alakazam or something like that. As much as I love Alakazam, it gets boring if all specialists use it (Sabrina and Lucian, for example).

Kingdra is pretty much the only strong Pokémon Clair has, too. Dragonair is decent but more because of its type than its power.

If you're a competitive battler, sure.

The N quest was pretty significant storywise. You can go to the BW early routes, battle the Striaton Trio, explore the water routes west of Nuvema, find the Magma Stone for Heatran, battle Colress one last time, challenge Alder, explore Twist Mountain, capture countless legendaries... This link shows there's far more to do besides PWT and Battle Subway. GSC only had the badges and a silly Rocket quest. HGSS compares far more favorably to B2W2, but still, B2W2 didn't need a second region to have lots of things to do in the postgame.

 

[BettyNewbie]

Betty, concerning you saying that Lance is easy is very subjective. He may be easy to you because you took the time to grind levels and make a counter for him, but when I fought him I barely freaking made it through. Of course that's because my team was in the late 30s-mid 40s level wise and I didn't take the time to grind, but still I barely made it through with the skin of my teeth! It's easy if you meticulously plan around defeating him but if your team isn't overused Pokemon and you don't have a designed counter you're still gonna have some problems. I'm not saying he's easy OR hard; just saying that difficulty is high subjective and dependent on what team you have and what levels your team is at. Obviously it's gonna be a lot harder when your team consists of lesser mons.

Well, that's simply what you get for going in underleveled. :P Even the weakest trainers can easily cream you if they're 10 levels ahead of you.

(What team were you using against him, BTW?)

Come to think of it I don't really see you arguing much about Wallace or Steven despite them specializing in Water and Rock respectively. Sure it's not 3 mons of the same species but their team has shared weaknesses between Pokemon that can easily be exploited.

Wallace was a Water specialist and his team was mono-Water, so he was exactly what you'd expect him to be. Some of them mix things up a little with their secondary typings (Ludicolo isn't weak to any of Water's weaknesses), but no, he's not terribly difficult.

As for Steven, his team isn't actually mono-Steel, but he does, at least, have three unique fully-evolved Steel types, and you actually can't sweep his entire team with only one or two moves. (The non-Steel types and Aggron aren't weak to Fire, the non-Steel types and Skarmory aren't weak to Ground, Skarmory, Claydol, and Metagross aren't weak to Fighting, and so on).

But, Lance? First of all, despite supposedly being a Dragon trainer, his team is actually mono-Flying. Yeah, I know that GSC didn't have many Dragons, but seriously? Couldn't they have found some non-Flying "pseudo-Dragons" to give him? And, what about Kingdra?

Even worse, his entire team is weak to Rock (Charizard 4x), as well as the popular BoltBeam combo (with Gyarados and the Dragonites being 4x weak). The only thing that kept him from being a total pushover was Rock Slide, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt not being readily-available TMs. (And, I say this as someone who otherwise loves his character.)

With that said however this gen is VERY similar to Gen III, and I've noticed Pokemon tends to be quite cyclical. There's an advancement phase where they're testing out new concepts, a more polished phase where they improve upon things and introduce good concepts, and a phase where they leave some previously liked things out and everything goes stale. The first have of Gen IV is very similar to Gen I, where they're testing out new concepts and basically designing an entire engine from scratch, and it tended to be bare bones and have an entire assortment from glitches much like the first gen Pokemon games did. The later half of Gen IV and Gen V is a lot like Gen II where they're taking everything good from the previous games and building up on it, and adding things that generally improve the franchise as a whole, like day/night for Gen II and seasons for Gen V. Gen VI is similar to Gen III in that even though it's polished they removed some things from the previous games while adding nothing in return, and in general it feels stale. Pokemon X and Y didn't have seasons or anything to really make the game immersive, and while they had models the models are lifeless compared to the vibrant animated sprites of Gen V. It's very similar to Gen III where the day/night cycle was cut and Pokemon weren't animated for the most part, where in Crystal they were animated, and until Emerald came along there wasn't really much added to the games even though they were 16-bit and colorful. Pokemon X and Y are a very good example of this, as even though they're pretty, that's all they are; they're pretty stale in comparison to Pokemon Heartgold or Pokemon Black. ORAS I think is like this too; it's a remake but for me it's inadequate due to them leaving things out that should have been there, and having no endgame besides a tiny little island and a small quest to justify you getting Deoxys, and it has similar problems to X/Y in terms of framerate and not properly utilizing the 3D feature.

Yeah, I've noticed that, too. Very fitting that Gens 2 and 3 were remade when they were, huh? ;)

 

[mew_nani]

Well, that's simply what you get for going in underleveled. :P Even the weakest trainers can easily cream you if they're 10 levels ahead of you.

(What team were you using against him, BTW?)

A Lugia, an Ampharos, a Typhlosion, a Gyrados (I think, I can't remember since the battery died some years ago, it might have been a Pidgeot instead), a Togetic, and Rocky the Onix. (Yes, that Onix you get near the start of the game for trading in a Bellsprout.) All from level 35 to 45. In spite of nearly being defeated and having to rely on Lugia most of the time he was defeated and presumably very humiliated. This is for the original Silver by the way; I used a similar team with SoulSilver and didn't have as much trouble. Can't remember if Rocky was still part of the team though.

Wallace was a Water specialist and his team was mono-Water, so he was exactly what you'd expect him to be. Some of them mix things up a little with their secondary typings (Ludicolo isn't weak to any of Water's weaknesses), but no, he's not terribly difficult.

As for Steven, his team isn't actually mono-Steel, but he does, at least, have three unique fully-evolved Steel types, and you actually can't sweep his entire team with only one or two moves. (The non-Steel types and Aggron aren't weak to Fire, the non-Steel types and Skarmory aren't weak to Ground, Skarmory, Claydol, and Metagross aren't weak to Fighting, and so on).

But, Lance? First of all, despite supposedly being a Dragon trainer, his team is actually mono-Flying. Yeah, I know that GSC didn't have many Dragons, but seriously? Couldn't they have found some non-Flying "pseudo-Dragons" to give him? And, what about Kingdra?

Even worse, his entire team is weak to Rock (Charizard 4x), as well as the popular BoltBeam combo (with Gyarados and the Dragonites being 4x weak). The only thing that kept him from being a total pushover was Rock Slide, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt not being readily-available TMs. (And, I say this as someone who otherwise loves his character.)

Lance's team I think weren't designed around Flying types, but rather around things that were designed around dragons. Gyrados is based off the legend of a carp swimming up a waterfall and becoming a dragon, so he gets one. Charizard looks like a dragon and breathes fire like one, so bam, instant team member. Aerodactyl is based off of a pterodactyl, which looks similar to a wyvern, so he gets one. They didn't bother making several different dragons like they should have (Charizard and Gyrados should have been part Dragon from the start) so instead they give him things that look like dragons and say "welp, we're done here." The reason they gave him several different Dragonites was because other than Kingdra (which, come to think of it, really should have been in his roster. Maybe they didn't add it because it looked like a seahorse?) he didn't have access to any other Dragon typed Pokemon. Even so, he's not got a monotype team, which while making it more difficult than him just having all Dragons still makes his Aerodactyl and Charizard stand out like sore thumbs.

Yeah, I've noticed that, too. Very fitting that Gens 2 and 3 were remade when they were, huh? ;)

I'm glad they were; if they were done during Gen VI they would have ruined them. HeartGold and SoulSilver did NOT need to revolve around mega evolution and have their main bad guys changed.

 

[BettyNewbie]

A Lugia, an Ampharos, a Typhlosion, a Gyrados (I think, I can't remember since the battery died some years ago, it might have been a Pidgeot instead), a Togetic, and Rocky the Onix. (Yes, that Onix you get near the start of the game for trading in a Bellsprout.) All from level 35 to 45. In spite of nearly being defeated and having to rely on Lugia most of the time he was defeated and presumably very humiliated. This is for the original Silver by the way; I used a similar team with SoulSilver and didn't have as much trouble. Can't remember if Rocky was still part of the team though.

Yeah... This is where the lack of Ice Beam/Thunderbolt TMs hurt you. Lugia can learn both moves, which would've made it perfect against Lance, but they're only available as a postgame Move Tutor in Crystal. Blizzard and Thunder are available in GS, but they're expensive and very unreliable.

As for the others, Ampharos is good against half of his team, but Typhlosion can't really do anything to his Pokémon, and neither Gyarados or Togetic were good in Gen 2 (the former lacked the P/S Split and the latter lacked its evolution). Rocky might have worked if you had access to Steelix (and a RBY game where it could learn Rock Slide as an Onix).

Lance's team I think weren't designed around Flying types, but rather around things that were designed around dragons. Gyrados is based off the legend of a carp swimming up a waterfall and becoming a dragon, so he gets one. Charizard looks like a dragon and breathes fire like one, so bam, instant team member. Aerodactyl is based off of a pterodactyl, which looks similar to a wyvern, so he gets one. They didn't bother making several different dragons like they should have (Charizard and Gyrados should have been part Dragon from the start) so instead they give him things that look like dragons and say "welp, we're done here." The reason they gave him several different Dragonites was because other than Kingdra (which, come to think of it, really should have been in his roster. Maybe they didn't add it because it looked like a seahorse?) he didn't have access to any other Dragon typed Pokemon. Even so, he's not got a monotype team, which while making it more difficult than him just having all Dragons still makes his Aerodactyl and Charizard stand out like sore thumbs.

Oh, Lance's Pokémon were definitely meant to be dragons, but GF inadvertently ended up giving him a mono-Flying team. (And, one that was all Gen 1 Pokémon at that, despite him being one of the few E4 members/Champions to be canonically from Johto.) So what, if Kingdra's a seahorse, it's still a Dragon type. And, what about Ampharos (Japanese name means "electric dragon," and Lance had one in the TCG) or Steelix (giant snake, could always learn Dragonbreath, and Lance had one in Stadium 2)? They could've done way better.

I'm glad they were; if they were done during Gen VI they would have ruined them. HeartGold and SoulSilver did NOT need to revolve around mega evolution and have their main bad guys changed.

I take it you're not a fan of those changes? :P (Trust me, I'm a little iffy about Hoenn's plot being altered to revolve around Mega Evolution, myself.)

 

[mew_nani]

Yeah... This is where the lack of Ice Beam/Thunderbolt TMs hurt you. Lugia can learn both moves, which would've made it perfect against Lance, but they're only available as a postgame Move Tutor in Crystal. Blizzard and Thunder are available in GS, but they're expensive and very unreliable.

As for the others, Ampharos is good against half of his team, but Typhlosion can't really do anything to his Pokémon, and neither Gyarados or Togetic were good in Gen 2 (the former lacked the P/S Split and the latter lacked its evolution). Rocky might have worked if you had access to Steelix (and a RBY game where it could learn Rock Slide as an Onix).

I can't really remember their movesets well, but I don't think any of them had an Ice type move (I could be wrong, it was years ago.) I was still outleveled and outsped badly, even with the aid of Lugia. The battle amounted to "use revive, use Sandstorm, use revive, use Recover, hope for an opening and take advantage of it." I did eventually win though, and it was awesome. It was funny, as my Ampharos still wasn't over level 40 at the end of it.

As for using the Pokemon I did, I just liked them and used them because of that. I always liked Togetic, and even beat the Elite Four with one playing SoulSilver even though I didn't have access to its evolution yet (thanks Extrasensory!) Rocky though was stuck as an Onix the whole time because while I have Red and Blue in addition to Silver I lacked two Game Boys and a Link Cable for said Game Boys, making his evolution impossible. Still he wasn't too bad, as he was a very good wall and had Sandstorm to boot.

As for unfavorable matchups, it's not the worst one ever. Heck I almost soloed Giovanni with a Butterfree once. I regret nothing. I really should train Venomoth more though. I've only used it once, and it's a decent enough Pokemon that learns Psychic naturally despite being a Poison type.

Oh, Lance's Pokémon were definitely meant to be dragons, but GF inadvertently ended up giving him a mono-Flying team. (And, one that was all Gen 1 Pokémon at that, despite him being one of the few E4 members/Champions to be canonically from Johto.) So what, if Kingdra's a seahorse, it's still a Dragon type. And, what about Ampharos (Japanese name means "electric dragon," and Lance had one in the TCG) or Steelix (giant snake, could always learn Dragonbreath, and Lance had one in Stadium 2)? They could've done way better.

That actually would have been a good curveball if he had an Ampharos. Your ice and lightning attacks aren't gonna do much to that thing. Oh the missed opportunities... I dunno about him having a Steelix though. Thing doesn't exactly scream "dragon", and it's not too hard to take down if you have Surf, which you probably would have on you at that point. Either way he could have subbed at least one Dragonite out for another Pokemon. At least they each had different movesets.

I take it you're not a fan of those changes? :P (Trust me, I'm a little iffy about Hoenn's plot being altered to revolve around Mega Evolution, myself.)

That's a very lengthy conversation for another thread. I'll just leave it at I didn't even play the demo they handed out. I can't even bear to watch a walkthrough. They changed too many things. :(

 

[minecraftprosick]

Well, I guess it can be said this because after a while the same formula DOES get old, even if ORAS specifically wasn't designed to bring many new things to the table. At its core, the game is basically is the same as every other Pokemon game, with some shiny new features. I really like several of the ORAS-specific features, such as the DexNav and Soaring, but given Nintendo's pattern of keeping larger features specific to the game they were introduced in (such as walking Pokemon in HGSS, character customization in XY, with the exception of Pokemon Amie), it's likely that these features won't be in the next Pokemon game. I mean, even if these WERE in the next game, it would just become repetitive and everything would be the same except for a few small characters, plot, and location.

Don't get me wrong, I love ORAS. But maybe the sales are just falling because the basics are the same: 8 gyms, elite four, only some post game. In the end, though, Pokemon will still get money regardless of how "good" the games actually are.

I do think it just repeats. Every Pokemon game is the same, but in a different region and the same storyline but with a different enemy name.

 

[BettyNewbie]

I can't really remember their movesets well, but I don't think any of them had an Ice type move (I could be wrong, it was years ago.) I was still outleveled and outsped badly, even with the aid of Lugia. The battle amounted to "use revive, use Sandstorm, use revive, use Recover, hope for an opening and take advantage of it." I did eventually win though, and it was awesome. It was funny, as my Ampharos still wasn't over level 40 at the end of it.

As for using the Pokemon I did, I just liked them and used them because of that. I always liked Togetic, and even beat the Elite Four with one playing SoulSilver even though I didn't have access to its evolution yet (thanks Extrasensory!) Rocky though was stuck as an Onix the whole time because while I have Red and Blue in addition to Silver I lacked two Game Boys and a Link Cable for said Game Boys, making his evolution impossible. Still he wasn't too bad, as he was a very good wall and had Sandstorm to boot.

Yeah, you could've stood to do more grinding. Ampharos shouldn't have had a hard time with Gyarados, Aerodactyl, and Charizard at all.

As I said, it's a shame that Ice Beam wasn't a TM in this Gen, because that really put a crimp on what you could use as an Ice attacker. (It actually forced you to use *gasp* actual Ice types!) Assuming that you had no trading access, Ice Punch was a TM (and still a Special move), so Kadabra and Slowbro made good use of it. You could've also tried a Nidoroyal or Golduck for something a little less conventional. Jynx got it naturally and off of a solid 115 Special Attack if you wanted to go that way.

As for Ice Beam, your only options without RBY tradebacks or Crystal were Dewgong (L43), Lapras (L36), and Octillery (L54). Dewgong is pretty awful, and Remoraid isn't exactly the easiest Pokémon to find, so Lapras is probably the best one (although Octillery does have a better Sp. Attack and wider natural movepool).

As for unfavorable matchups, it's not the worst one ever. Heck I almost soloed Giovanni with a Butterfree once. I regret nothing. I really should train Venomoth more though. I've only used it once, and it's a decent enough Pokemon that learns Psychic naturally despite being a Poison type.

Yeah, Venomoth has always been one of those Pokémon that most people overlook. Bug and Poison types have never had a good reputation, and unlike Butterfree and friends, you usually don't get Venomoth until you already have access to a bunch of stronger things.

That actually would have been a good curveball if he had an Ampharos. Your ice and lightning attacks aren't gonna do much to that thing. Oh the missed opportunities...

Exactly. His team would've improved tenfold if he ditched the dupe Dragonites for Kingdra and Ampharos.

That's a very lengthy conversation for another thread. I'll just leave it at I didn't even play the demo they handed out. I can't even bear to watch a walkthrough. They changed too many things. :(

While the last thing I would've wanted was for ORAS to be a glorified enhanced port like FRLG was, I don't think that retconning Hoenn's story to revolve around Mega Evolution was the smartest move on GF's part. (Really, I hope the story part of Mega Evolution is downplayed a lot next Gen. I don't think Megas aren't the worst thing ever, but c'mon, this isn't Digimon.)

I do think it just repeats. Every Pokemon game is the same, but in a different region and the same storyline but with a different enemy name.

I long for nothing more than for GF to throw a curveball. Just about every non-remake game released since RS has followed that same formula, with only BW/2 shaking it up a little. It's gotten very stale and tiring, IMO.

 

[Nah]

While the last thing I would've wanted was for ORAS to be a glorified enhanced port like FRLG was, I don't think that retconning Hoenn's story to revolve around Mega Evolution was the smartest move on GF's part. (Really, I hope the story part of Mega Evolution is downplayed a lot next Gen. I don't think Megas aren't the worst thing ever, but c'mon, this isn't Digimon.)

Funny thing is that they didn't have to make Mega Evolution a main story point in ORAS if they didn't write themselves into a corner by making Mega Evolution seem to be a Kalos-only thing in X/Y. But apparently they weren't really thinking ahead. Clearly it's a feature that's here to stay in Pokemon, but when you introduce it as something only happening in one region, but then include it in another....woops.

 

[BettyNewbie]

Funny thing is that they didn't have to make Mega Evolution a main story point in ORAS if they didn't write themselves into a corner by making Mega Evolution seem to be a Kalos-only thing in X/Y. But apparently they weren't really thinking ahead. Clearly it's a feature that's here to stay in Pokemon, but when you introduce it as something only happening in one region, but then include it in another....woops.

Yet again, poor writing in XY is the culprit. :rolleyes2:

A part of me feels like GF used ORAS as a substitute for a XY Third Version or prequel/sequel, because the entire point of making Mega Evolution such a huge part of Hoenn's story (especially in the Delta Episode) seems to serve no other purpose than to tie up loose ends in XY and patch up any poor, inconsistent writing (aka. what Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and B2W2 did). I hope this doesn't mean that Gen 6 will end with just XY and ORAS, but this, combined with Masuda's comments about doing a XY Third Version or sequel, makes it seem likely. :sideways: