[Discussion] How could the Pokémon battle system be improved?

[AlexTCGPro]

I don't know if I'm the only one, but lately while I was testing my project I thought to myself:

"wow, this sure is boring"

And indeed, the pokémon battle system is extremely basic and boooooring even to this day.

Let me explain:

While final fantasy has a timer (that make your enemies attack you if you don't act quickly), super mario rpg has timed hits (where yours attacks will do more damage if you press the attack button at the right time) and golden sun has very fast paced battles (where you can beat an entire horde of enemies in less that a minute), pokemon is just: press A and wait for your next turn... And repeat!

The MegaEvolutions are nice and stuff, but they don't make the battles more exciting, they make them longer...

It's nitpicking, and I know there's lot of rpgs like that, but I want to make a more unique and fun pokémon game and the first thing that needs to be changed or improved is the battle system.

I was thinking of making the text and animations faster, so battles don't last very long, or maybe add a timer like in final fantasy games: if you don't act quickly your turn will be skipped and the opossing pokemon will attack, or maybe... I don't really know.

Basically: I want to know if you ever have thought of this before and if you have any idea of how could the battle system be improved.

Greetings and thank you for reading.

 

[Radical Raptr]

The only thing I could think of to make the battle more interesting is to make it in real time, where speed makes more of a difference than "who attacks first" and instead fills up your initiative bar, as it would be an improvement to the current system without changing the whole scheme of the pokemon system

 

[AlexTCGPro]

The only thing I could think of to make the battle more interesting is to make it in real time, where speed makes more of a difference than "who attacks first" and instead fills up your initiative bar, as it would be an improvement to the current system without changing the whole scheme of the pokemon system

Yeah! Adding a new bar in the battle scene, the bar will deplete when you choose a move and it will gradually fill up, the fastest your pokemon the fastest it fills, of course this will make moves like curse hurt, and a lot.

Sounds great but it also sound hard to implement...

Thank you for replying ;)

 

[Pumone]

Good thread

You are right, Pokémon style is getting slower with every new generation with bulky monsters and stuff.

My idea is totally different from yours (still good ideas):

I imagine to play with POINTS, so you start the battle with a specific amount of points, let's take 100 points for example.

Well you need points to do everything, so if you decide to attack with earthquake you'll pay 100 points, if you want to switch pokémon 10 points etc etc...

Every HP of damage to your enemy will give you the same quantity of points, so if you kill a rayquaza with 400 HP you get 400 points and so on...

That's just an idea but I think it would be more challenging.

Another funny way can be play like the card game, so if you want to attack you need to pay with energy.

 

[AlexTCGPro]

Good thread

You are right, Pokémon style is getting slower with every new generation with bulky monsters and stuff.

My idea is totally different from yours (still good ideas):

I imagine to play with POINTS, so you start the battle with a specific amount of points, let's take 100 points for example.

Well you need points to do everything, so if you decide to attack with earthquake you'll pay 100 points, if you want to switch pokémon 10 points etc etc...

Every HP of damage to your enemy will give you the same quantity of points, so if you kill a rayquaza with 400 HP you get 400 points and so on...

That's just an idea but I think it would be more challenging.

Sounds good, like a stamina meter, the more your pokemon does the more tired it gets, that way you won't be able to use the same pokemon for the whole fight, instead or earning stamina fighting what about only refilling if the pokemon is not the active battler, that way you will be forced to use another pokemon until the one you want is no longer tired, I think it would be easier to script that the real time battle system.

 

[Pumone]

Yes! This is a great idea.

I think Pokémon essentials has a lot of potential and the best way to do is to make a step forward from the original games.

The biggest error we still do is "copy and paste" the original games mechanics.

Pokèmon essentials can do a better job!

Stop copying, let's start making new rules!

 

[AlexTCGPro]

Yes! This is a great idea.

I think Pokémon essentials has a lot of potential and the best way to do is to make a step forward from the original games.

The biggest error we still do is "copy and paste" the original games mechanics.

Pokèmon essentials can do a better job!

Stop copying, let's start making new rules!

Agree, although I won't say we have to completely create a new battle system for pokemon essentials but I think it will be nice to have an alternative one.

 

[Worldslayer608]

Smarter AI or more rounded multiplayer support seems like all the poke battle system really needs. If you have ever played a competitive Wi-Fi battle, they are dynamic enough because things like types, stats, and move specs become far more relevant.

Perhaps I am just one of those people that thinks that different battle systems break tradition for this game, and makes it less appealing. I play Pokemon because I want to play Pokemon. If it is about the battle system, I play a different game.

 

[AlexTCGPro]

Smarter AI or more rounded multiplayer support seems like all the poke battle system really needs. If you have ever played a competitive Wi-Fi battle, they are dynamic enough because things like types, stats, and move specs become far more relevant.

Perhaps I am just one of those people that thinks that different battle systems break tradition for this game, and makes it less appealing. I play Pokemon because I want to play Pokemon. If it is about the battle system, I play a different game.

You are right, that way essentials will play like the official games, but essentials is about creating your own pokemon game, so having different gameplay styles will help make each game more unique.

Thank you all for replying ;)

 

[KillerMapper]

I'm happy with the classic battle system. But it could be better. Right now it's slow because:
-> Text says "POKEMON used MOVE"
-> then the move animation is played
-> the HP bar animation is played only when the move is finished
-> and eventually some texts appear (It's not / super effective....)

All of this could be played - almost - at the same time : the move animation could start when the "X used MOVE" text appears and the HP bar animation could be played when the pokémon is actually hurt by the move, even if the animation isn't finished...

The problem is with the full 3D battle scene (since gen 6), it's slow as hell because of the random camera views and the game itself is slow actually (even slower with 3D activated).

Gen 5 battles were good, I loved the ambiance (the damage sounds, the low-HP theme, the dynamic camera which was fast at least... even those animated pokémon sprites were great).

Also we could have some little details, like some burn marks on the floor after a fire attack, or cracks when thunder hits the floor. Imagine how could be the area after a huge battle :p

 

[Worldslayer608]

You are right, that way essentials will play like the official games, but essentials is about creating your own pokemon game, so having different gameplay styles will help make each game more unique.

Thank you all for replying ;)

Pokémon Essentials is about providing the core attributes of a Pokémon game to the RMXP engine, not about allowing you to get creative with your battle system.

Digimon World is a great example of what happens when you take a franchise game worthy of flagship, and drastically change core components. Digimon World 2 and 3 may be follow ups to Digimon World, but playing them is a completely different experience. Many of the people I know who have actually played those games, will agree that the formula should have continued from the first installment for the simple reason that the core elements are something people expect when buying a derivative product.

Different battle systems are cool, and I play a variety of games that have different combat mechanics, but the bottom line is that drastic changes to the battle system for a Pokémon fan-game, is incredibly hard to pull off for the simple fact that people are expecting it to be linear to the official games they know and love.

If you are going to change the battle system, you pretty much need to change everything else too, including how the player plays in the overworld.

 

[FL]

I'm happy with the classic battle system. But it could be better. Right now it's slow because:
-> Text says "POKEMON used MOVE"
-> then the move animation is played
-> the HP bar animation is played only when the move is finished
-> and eventually some texts appear (It's not / super effective....)

All of this could be played - almost - at the same time : the move animation could start when the "X used MOVE" text appears and the HP bar animation could be played when the pokémon is actually hurt by the move, even if the animation isn't finished...

The problem is with the full 3D battle scene (since gen 6), it's slow as hell because of the random camera views and the game itself is slow actually (even slower with 3D activated).

Gen 5 battles were good, I loved the ambiance (the damage sounds, the low-HP theme, the dynamic camera which was fast at least... even those animated pokémon sprites were great).

Also we could have some little details, like some burn marks on the floor after a fire attack, or cracks when thunder hits the floor. Imagine how could be the area after a huge battle :p

Totally agree.

For core mechanics, I wish equippable move and, maybe a PP bar system.

 

[viperk1]

Totally agree.

For core mechanics, I wish equippable move and, maybe a PP bar system.

I've had a read through that and wanted to reply, then saw it would be reviving a 2 year old thread so posted here instead.

One way I've seen PP bar systems implemented (not necessarily in an RPGXP game but actually in a text-based RPG) is through "energy". However, energy would not be the same for all Pokémon (imagine a newly born Level 1 being able to last as long as a fully grown Level 100 Pokémon, that'd be ridiculous). A basic way of doing it (which is the method I've seen...hell, with this one I helped develop it for the site) is to have a certain amount of energy when a Pokémon hatches at Level 1 then for the amount to rise as the Pokémon Levels up - with each move requiring a certain amount of energy (the most reasonable method would be based on base power of moves (e.g. Base Power/10) with status moves having a particular amount of energy depending on what they do (e.g. Howl, Charm etc. requiring 3 energy). Of course, when a Pokémon runs out of energy they wouldn't rely on 'Struggle' - they'd just faint what with being too tired to continue.

An example would be: Total Energy = (Level x 3) + 30.
Meaning a Level 1 Poochyena has 33 Energy, whilst a Level 18 Mightyena would have 84.

It's simplified (some Pokémon may have more energy than others) but that'd make most sense in terms of a PP bar system - altering energy formulae for every Pokémon would lead to...well, a lot of bias and would negatively impact those powerhouse single stage Pokémon (e.g. every Legendary in existence).

 

[TBM_Christopher]

So let's talk for a moment about why alternative battle systems are not necessary for Essentials, yet necessary for a lot of fangames.

Essentials has a name which explains what it's for in no uncertain terms - the essential components of a Pokemon game. The overworld functionality, basic menus and layouts, and battle system. It's made such that you can emulate a 3rd generation Pokemon game with it without any difficulty(indeed, barring graphics, you can emulate up to 5th gen with no issue whatsoever, and the lack of 6th gen Pokemon is merely an issue of convenience in implementing the additional 72-73(?) Pokemon, new moves, and Fairy type). It's not, however, meant to deviate from this, no matter how intuitive the "fix" may seem. That's why you don't see features such as directly viewing IVs and EVs, or a turn system on timers, or any numerous other suggestions that have almost certainly been put forth.

This is a great setup - it saves developers a LOT of time in their creation of a game. After all, the math is right for a Pokemon game, so all you have to do is slap your own maps and story (and sometimes some fakemon or a title legendary, some spiffy graphics you found with no usage restrictions on DeviantArt, or even some new moves or abilities you've come up with) into a convenient engine. This is great, except your game is just like everyone else's. You SHOULD at that point have freed up time to innovate and experiment, and change fundamental features of the engine to suit your needs. Instead we see a half dozen games churned out with the exact same gameplay. Some of that is limitations of the engine, but most of it, in my opinion, is limitations of the designer's creativity.

 

[Radical Raptr]

So let's talk for a moment about why alternative battle systems are not necessary for Essentials, yet necessary for a lot of fangames.

He's talking about the pokemon battle system in general, not about essentials

 

[TBM_Christopher]

He's talking about the pokemon battle system in general, not about essentials

Yes, but a lot of response seems to be "Essentials NEEDS different battle styles" so I thought it'd be helpful to explain(at least, as far as I was aware) why that shouldn't be the case.

 

[Maruno]

This is great, except your game is just like everyone else's. You SHOULD at that point have freed up time to innovate and experiment, and change fundamental features of the engine to suit your needs. Instead we see a half dozen games churned out with the exact same gameplay. Some of that is limitations of the engine, but most of it, in my opinion, is limitations of the designer's creativity.

You seem to be missing the fact that almost no games have ever been completed. I think that simply completing a game will make it stand out from the rest as much as it needs to, even without sweeping changes to the core mechanics.

But this is getting off-topic.

 

[Luka S.J.]

I don't know about you guys, but the reason I stick with playing the official Pokemon franchise is because of it's formula. The battle system in Pokemon is unique in the fact that Pokemon games have it only. I play the games because I like to battle the way that only Pokemon does it. I was never very fond of the spin-off games. I have played many of them, but I just can't appreciate them as much as HG/SS (for instance).

Changing the core mechanics of the battle system, wouldn't make it feel like a classic Pokemon battle anymore. The current formula works, and I think that's apparent by the multitude of FAN-games we have around here.

Spoiler:

I'm calling dibs on overhauling the visuals of the battle sys. It will take a while to complete and get right, but when I'm done, I'll post the stuff for you guys to try out, and hopefully use.

 

[Rayquaza.]

I don't know about you guys, but the reason I stick with playing the official Pokemon franchise is because of it's formula. The battle system in Pokemon is unique in the fact that Pokemon games have it only. I play the games because I like to battle the way that only Pokemon does it. I was never very fond of the spin-off games. I have played many of them, but I just can't appreciate them as much as HG/SS (for instance).

Changing the core mechanics of the battle system, wouldn't make it feel like a classic Pokemon battle anymore. The current formula works, and I think that's apparent by the multitude of FAN-games we have around here.

Spoiler:

I'm calling dibs on overhauling the visuals of the battle sys. It will take a while to complete and get right, but when I'm done, I'll post the stuff for you guys to try out, and hopefully use.

I agree, the battle system Pokémon games have is unique to Pokémon. Also that battle system your developing looks awesome and I can't wait to see it in full.

 

[Badhaas]

I feel that the different Pokémon, with all their moves and abilities, form the core of the battle system. The core games have shown that the original battle system works great and it's something a lot of people like about the game. When people play a fan game they most likely still expect the core battle system, yet because it's a fan game there is also the possibility to try something else.

With regards to the battle system in essentials, we can look for ways to streamline it more. Examples of this are not showing a message for the weather every turn (as they do in the 6th gen games), or KillerMapper's suggestion; playing an attack animation and the hp lost animation during the time the text appears. The intend is to still give players the same information, but in a shorter time span. Players already don't have to bash 'A' after selecting a move as text progresses automatically, thus setting the text speed to fast already speeds up this process.

With regards to altering the battle system, I feel it should still include the core of the Pokémon battle system; the Pokémon, their attacks, and their abilities. I believe that is the basis of what people expect from a Pokémon game. This leaves room for changing how turns work, how pp works, how switching works, the amount of Pokémon you can send out, positioning in battle, and possibly other mechanics you'd like to add. It's possible to add a second battle system to still give players the original one as well, however implementing both should also make sense within your game. Modifying the way the battle system works sets your game apart from other fan games (even if completing it sets it apart from most to begin with).

To give an example; I've got the design for a 'full scale' battle system finished for the game I'm working on. The system is intended to be implemented next to the original battle system, whereas the original battle system are dubbed as "official battles". The idea behind it is that in official battles trainers follow the rules while with the full scale battle system trainers can send out more Pokémon and fight without restraint. The 'full scale' battle system is more real time with things being determined by speed and priority (somewhat similar to child of light); it allows players to send out up to six Pokémon per side (meaning 1v1, 6v6, and 1v6 are all possible), where positioning also influences the battle; and allows for changing of the positioning with some added effects. (note: I am currently working on other stuff first, so it probably will be a while before I start working on implementing this. If anyone is interested in working with me on this pm me.)

The battle system in the core games has proven itself to be fun and successful. When making alterations to this you have to find a way to still keep it fun and engaging, as that's the most important part.