How could we possibly make the Grass/Dark typing work?

[PageEmp]

Or any bad typing similar to it work even?

So this is a revival of a previous thread. I feel that the last thread… could have been handled much better, so let's strive to be much more mature in this thread.

Now, I didn't explain why I despise the Grass/Dark typing so much last time, so here I shall: I used a particularly abysmal Shiftry in one of my old playthroughs, it never had a particular role or niche and it was weak to practically everything, and I constantly switched up my team just to make it function, and then I gave up the run entirely just because of it.

I really don't want to experience that again, and with all the reliable leakers claiming the starter I plan to pick is going to be Grass/Dark, I have an issue with that.

I am aware that back then, I probably wasn't trying too hard, but that said, how do you guys think we could make the Grass/Dark typing more manageable? Let's strive to be more mature than the last thread.

 

[Squirtkipfan01]

Well define more manageable. Better move pool? Better stats? Because it honestly sounds like the problem is that Dark/Grass exists, and much to be done about that. Some typings just get omega screwed over, just look at Grass/ice and grass/psychic

 

[Sweet Serenity]

I agree. I believe that discussion in the last thread could have been handled much better. To be honest however, I didn't believe that the other thread was serious enough to close though, but it was what it was. Nevertheless, I figured that this topic would come around again. This time, I made two blog posts about the Grass/Dark typing, one about the positive aspects each of the two types and the perks that you get when you combine them and even another blog entry about how to build a team around them and make them work. The first blog was actually what I wanted to post right before the other thread was closed. Because of procrastination and not knowing that this site had a blog feature, I just recently put the information in a blog. Check them out, give them a read, and tell me what you think.

Everything About the Grass/Dark-Type Combination
Building a Competitive Singles Team Around the Grass/Dark Type Combination

I plan on writing about building a competitive Doubles team around this subject as well at a later date, but because of my tendency to procrastinate and the high likelihood of me being busy next week, who knows when that would be. I should also mention that the new "Terastal phenomenon" feature, which changes types, could also help mend the Grass/Dark-type combination's seven weaknesses. I didn't mention that in either blog post because I technically wrote those entries during the time the other thread was open, but only posted them recently.

 

[ReKoil]

Wouldn't the new gimmick help it out already?
Supposedly it makes you a pure type of the type you terrastalize into defensively, but you keep the STAB from your original types offensively. Plus STAB from the new type you changed into.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncvv_GqkOw0

Though time will tell if that's really accurate. Judging from the official Scarlet/Violet site though:

Terastallizing a Pokémon allows you to enhance your battle strategies by increasing the power of any moves that have the same type as your Pokémon's Tera Type or by changing your Pokémon's weaknesses.

Just changing into a beneficial single type should help this typing a lot defensively. If it can have an Electric Tera type it now should have only 1 weakness defensively.


Gimmick aside, a good defensive ability would improve it's ability to stay alive. Thick Fat would for example help with two of it's weaknesses: Fire and Ice.
Which still leaves 5 other weaknesses, but it would help nonetheless.

 

[Amore]

Perhaps Grass should resist Fairy? Being new to that type in Gen VIII, when I found out my Cinderace resisted it, I figured as an opposite to Dragon (which resists all starters) that Grass and Water would likewise resist. I was wrong (thankfully, because Gastrodon resisting Fairy is even more OP hah).

 

[Devalue]

Argues this to be more of a Pokemon problem than a type problem. Deals with 6 weaknesses and 1 double weakness, but also 6 resistances and 1 immunity. Is not very impressed on the offensive side. Hits with unresisted STAB, as pointed out by Sweet Serenity. Would benefit from one or two more super-effective attacks, however. Perhaps against Steel, Fairy, or Dragon? (Supplies no good flavor reasons on any of those.)

By contrast, look at Weavile (Dark/Ice). Suffers 5 weaknesses and 1 double-weakness, with only 3 resistances and 1 immunity. Views dropping 1 weakness at the cost of 3 resistances terrible. Manages pretty well for itself, despite that.

Agrees on Shiftry and Cacturne being underwhelming, but more due to stats. Wastes stat points on high mixed offenses. Fares better by investing in one attacking stat, not both. Rarely pays off to use both, especially when already not having high stats.

Quick comparison of base stat totals:

• Thwackey: 70 HP, 85 Atk, 70 Def, 55 SpAtk, 60 SpDef, 80 Speed
• Shiftry: 90 HP, 100 Atk, 60 Def, 90 SpAtk, 60 SpDef, 80 Speed

Only performs a little better than a middle evolution, after taking away the worst offensive stat.

Views Grass/Dark as a good switch-in or revenge killer type, much like Dark/Ice. Switches into the right attack/Pokemon really well with all of its resistances. Ideally delivers one or two strong attacks, then bails before the inevitable super-effective response.

Goes back to base stat totals again.

• Cacturne: 70 HP, 115 Atk, 60 Def, 115 SpAtk, 60 SpDef, 55 Speed
• Shiftry: 90 HP, 100 Atk, 60 Def, 90 SpAtk, 60 SpDef, 80 Speed
• Weavile: 70 HP, 120 Atk, 65 Def, 45 SpAtk, 85 SpDef, 125 Speed

Optimized one of these Pokemon far better than the others for this role. Holds Shiftry and Cacturne back more than typing. Helped Shiftry a bit on the Speed front with Chlorophyll (plus Solar Blade). Feels tough to set up Sun outside of a constructed team and/or Dynamax, given the number of Drought users. And who wants to use Sunny Day?

(Rest in peace to Cacturne. Too slow for battles, but also kind of fast for Trick Room.)

Understands if you feel unconvinced. Prefers sturdy Pokemon, personally. Never plans around Pokemon fainting in a playthrough. Devalues the revenge killing role a bit. Sounds like similar for you in Nuzlockes too.

 

[Sweet Serenity]

Would benefit from one or two more super-effective attacks, however. Perhaps against Steel, Fairy, or Dragon? (Supplies no good flavor reasons on any of those.)

As long as it has teammates that can resist Grass/Dark weaknesses and hit those Pokémon super-effectively, then it would be perfectly fine. That's why Victini and Nihilego would be great teammates for it.

Quick comparison of base stat totals:

• Thwackey: 70 HP, 85 Atk, 70 Def, 55 SpAtk, 60 SpDef, 80 Speed
• Shiftry: 90 HP, 100 Atk, 60 Def, 90 SpAtk, 60 SpDef, 80 Speed

Only performs a little better than a middle evolution, after taking away the worst offensive stat.

Shifty is a dangerous sweeper in the Sun. Thus, I would say that, because of that, it performs better than your typical middle evolution. Performance depends on more than just base stats. You have to consider abilities and moves too. Shiftry has good abilities and a vast movepool. Also consider that starter middle Pokémon tend to have better stats than non-starter middle evolution Pokémon, so it might not be the most fair comparison. Shiftry might not be the best competitive Pokémon, but it is great for a playthrough if you didn't choose the Grass-type starter.

Goes back to base stat totals again.

• Cacturne: 70 HP, 115 Atk, 60 Def, 115 SpAtk, 60 SpDef, 55 Speed
• Shiftry: 90 HP, 100 Atk, 60 Def, 90 SpAtk, 60 SpDef, 80 Speed
• Weavile: 70 HP, 120 Atk, 65 Def, 45 SpAtk, 85 SpDef, 125 Speed

Helped Shiftry a bit on the Speed front with Chlorophyll (plus Solar Blade). Feels tough to set up Sun outside of a constructed team and/or Dynamax, given the number of Drought users. And who wants to use Sunny Day?

Not necessarily. In Singles, you can open with a Pokémon like Groudon or Torkoal holding a Heat Rock and switch in to Shiftry when it's safe to do so. Regular Ninetales can have Drought as well, but I personally wouldn't recommend it because Ninetales is better for setting her own Sun if that makes sense due to it being more of a sweeper than anything. Torkoal is perhaps the best since it's possible Groudon be banned depending on the rules and Torkoal can also learn the move "Yawn," which puts the target Pokémon to sleep at the end of their next turn. This either forces the trainer to let their Pokémon sleep or switch out. This allows you to safely switch in to Shiftry. Not much is outspeeding a Chlorophyll Shiftry in the Sun unboosted in some way except for Regieleki. In Doubles, you can just open with a Groudon or Torkoal with Shiftry as its partner right next to it.

(Rest in peace to Cacturne. Too slow for battles, but also kind of fast for Trick Room.)

Cacturne is actually very good in Trick Room, but as a sweeper/revenge killer with a Focus Sash. In fact, it's the only way to use Cacturne, really. I've made Pokémon like Groudon and Kyogre work in Trick Room and they both have a base Speed stat of 90. Then again, that's more because of who their typical opponents are. In the meta game, Pokémon are typically much faster than the average Speed stat of 78. Even though 90 is not bad at all for Speed, many of the top-tier meta Pokémon are typically faster, allowing Pokémon with lower Speed such as Groudon and Kyogre to thrive in Trick Room against them. Thus, you can't really say for certain what Pokémon are too fast for Trick Room unless you know your typical competition. However, Cacturne would always be great in Trick Room because 55 base Speed is always slow. (Keep in mind, the average base Speed stat for all fully-evolved Pokémon is 78). I would argue that, on average when not considering the meta game or anything while playing under limited rules, you should really start worrying about being outsped in Trick Room if your base Speed is around 70+.

Devalues the revenge killing role a bit.

Lol, you managed to throw your username in there. Very cute. ☺️

 

[Devalue]

Shifty is a dangerous sweeper in the Sun. Thus, I would say that, because of that, it performs better than your typical middle evolution. Performance depends on more than just base stats. You have to consider abilities and moves too. Shiftry has good abilities and a vast movepool. Also consider that starter middle Pokémon tend to have better stats than non-starter middle evolution Pokémon, so it might not be the most fair comparison. Shiftry might not be the best competitive Pokémon, but it is great for a playthrough if you didn't choose the Grass-type starter.

Agrees on abilities and moves mattering. Hinges on making them matter. How often does Sun make sense for a team in a playthrough setting? Maybe in certain monotypes.

Certainly could make it work. Picks up all the necessary moves to sweep (Sunny Day + Swords Dance/Nasty Plot), given the right setup opponent. Requires foreknowledge. Would still be leery of the all-in-one setup. Faces probably two unresisted (Normal) attacks with iffy bulk. Prefers softening up with some Charms/Eerie Impulses + status.

Also agrees on Shiftry being a decent substitute for the Grass starter. Probably wants a Grass-type to handle Water, Ground, and Rock. Compromises none of those type match-ups with its Dark typing. (Honestly disliked Empoleon's typing for doing that. Netted it tons of resistances at the cost of being worse against Fire, Ground, and usually Rock. Became a good Steel Pokemon, but a rough Water Pokemon, if that makes sense.)

Sidenote: Could dominate the early-game in Shield with this thing. Acquires a Leaf Stone in Turffield. Fully evolves before the first gym. Visit the Pokemon Center for free Leaf Blade, Sucker Punch, and Sunny Day. No grinding necessary, unlike with TRs.

Not necessarily. In Singles, you can open with a Pokémon like Groudon or Torkoal holding a Heat Rock and switch in to Shiftry when it's safe to do so. Regular Ninetales can have Drought as well, but I personally wouldn't recommend it because Ninetales is better for setting her own Sun if that makes sense due to it being more of a sweeper than anything. Torkoal is perhaps the best since it's possible Groudon be banned depending on the rules and Torkoal can also learn the move "Yawn," which puts the target Pokémon to sleep at the end of their next turn. This either forces the trainer to let their Pokémon sleep or switch out. This allows you to safely switch in to Shiftry. Not much is outspeeding a Chlorophyll Shiftry in the Sun unboosted in some way except for Regieleki. In Doubles, you can just open with a Groudon or Torkoal with Shiftry as its partner right next to it.

Specified "outside of constructed teams and Dynamax" for that reason. Would not count on getting Groudon or Hidden Ability Ninetales in a normal playthrough. (Admittedly switched between thinking in terms of regular playthroughs and constructed teams a few times.) Leaves just Torkoal. Hopes you have access to it.

Faces a lot of competition for Sun sweeper. Sits about on par with Victreebel. (Slightly higher offenses, lower speed, smaller movepool, but also Weather Ball.) Says nothing about the higher regarded Chlorophyll sweepers (Venusaur, as you mentioned).

Cacturne is actually very good in Trick Room, but as a sweeper/revenge killer with a Focus Sash. In fact, it's the only way to use Cacturne, really. I've made Pokémon like Groudon and Kyogre work in Trick Room and they both have a base Speed stat of 90. Then again, that's more because of who their typical opponents are. In the meta game, Pokémon are typically much faster than the average Speed stat of 78. Even though 90 is not bad at all for Speed, many of the top-tier meta Pokémon are typically faster, allowing Pokémon with lower Speed such as Groudon and Kyogre to thrive in Trick Room against them. Thus, you can't really say for certain what Pokémon are too fast for Trick Room unless you know your typical competition. However, Cacturne would always be great in Trick Room because 55 base Speed is always slow. (Keep in mind, the average base Speed stat for all fully-evolved Pokémon is 78). I would argue that, on average when not considering the meta game or anything while playing under limited rules, you should really start worrying about being outsped in Trick Room if your base Speed is around 70+.

Stands corrected on acceptable Trick Room speed. Misremembered them as being slower. Happens to be even with Machamp. Was definitely slow enough, particularly with an appropriate nature and IVs.

Concurs with Cacturne having few options. Is that enough offense for a Trick Room team, though? Considers 115 offenses without an offensive item OR offensive ability underwhelming next to other Pokemon.

___________________

Wants to bring this back to Dark/Grass a bit more. Which gyms and major fights would Dark/Grass be good or at least decent?

• Grass: Fine. Resists Grass. Only deals with Normal attacks otherwise. Trades neutral attacks.
• Water: Dominant. Handles Water and Dark well. Prepares for mainly Normal attacks again.
• Fire: Big no, for obvious reasons.
• Ghost: Mostly good. Dislikes Gengar at the end. Could set up easy-peasy against Yamask, however.
• Fairy: Terrible. Faces a super-effective move on every Pokemon.
• Ice: Poor. Hits the Grass side hard. Might be able to pop in against Lapras with a good switch. Dukes it out with super-effective STABs on both sides.
• Dark: Alright. Receives not very effective damage against everyone except the lead (Scrafty).
• "Dragon": Not great. Hits Gigalith and Sandaconda hard at the cost of being hit hard back.
• Oleana: Mostly bad. Rips the Grass side apart. Deals with Milotic easily, if needed. May be able to smash Froslass too.
• Rose: Mixed. Stay away from Escavalier and Ferrothorn. Swaps into a Shadow Claw, Throat Chop, Wild Charge, High Horsepower, and Zen Headbutt well. Battles it out with neutral attacks on both sides.
• Leon: Mixed. Not unsurprising, given the coverage of Leon's team. Switches in well in some situations. Requires more finesse here.
  - Dragapult: Switches into Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt fine. Follow up with a STAB Sucker Punch.
  - Mr. Rime/Seismitoad/Rhyperior: Comes into a resisted (or immune) attack, potentially, on all of them. Nails two of them on a double weakness.
  - Inteleon/Rillaboom: Resists everything they have.

Handles itself decently. Naturally becomes less straightforward "good" or "bad" as coverage grows. Comes down to combat ability at times. Can you defeat [X] with equally effective attacks before fainting? Also helps to have foreknowledge. Becomes scarier if you cannot guess what move your opponent will use.


(Typed a lot more text than planned.)

 

[Palamon]

Make a new Pokemon that has an ability that makes it immune to one of its weaknesses, maybe? Honestly, considering it has so many weaknesses, that's really hard. The only thing I can really think of is making a Pokemon with some new ability that gives it an immunity to one of its type weaknesses, like Poison, or something, or give it some sort of move pool to make it viable.

I don't know, we'll have to see if we get any new Grass/Dark types in gen 9.

 

[Sweet Serenity]

Now, I didn't explain why I despise the Grass/Dark typing so much last time, so here I shall: I used a particularly abysmal Shiftry in one of my old playthroughs, it never had a particular role or niche and it was weak to practically everything, and I constantly switched up my team just to make it function, and then I gave up the run entirely just because of it.

With that being said however, it sounds more like a Shiftry problem than Dark/Grass type combination problem.

 

[PageEmp]

Wouldn't the new gimmick help it out already?
Supposedly it makes you a pure type of the type you terrastalize into defensively, but you keep the STAB from your original types offensively. Plus STAB from the new type you changed into.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncvv_GqkOw0

I really hope it actually works that way then.

Perhaps Grass should resist Fairy? Being new to that type in Gen VIII, when I found out my Cinderace resisted it, I figured as an opposite to Dragon (which resists all starters) that Grass and Water would likewise resist. I was wrong (thankfully, because Gastrodon resisting Fairy is even more OP hah).

I actually do think Dark should not have been weak to Fairy in the first place. The other two types weak to Fairy were at least somewhat overpowered beforehand, never did I consider Dark overpowered beforehand.
A bit off topic, but I think part of the reason why Dark got a new weakness was to ensure all type combinations can have a weakness without the use of an ability, and Ghost/Dark had no weaknesses beforehand. I have a solution: make Ghost no longer resist Bug. Seriously, Ghost resisting Bug might possibly be the most obscure type matchup in existence. What logic does that even make? Probably none! If that happens then Ghost/Dark can be weak to Bug which I am fine with.

With that being said however, it sounds more like a Shiftry problem than Dark/Grass type combination problem.

Yeah… it probably was. But, constantly having to take super effective coverage just wasn't fun to deal with.

Now to add another thing to discuss since nobody brought it up: what possible teammate typings could be used to help protect Grass/Dark weaknesses? I have personally thought of Poison mons since those resist, well, all of Dark's weaknesses.

 

[Amore]

I actually do think Dark should not have been weak to Fairy in the first place. The other two types weak to Fairy were at least somewhat overpowered beforehand, never did I consider Dark overpowered beforehand.
A bit off topic, but I think part of the reason why Dark got a new weakness was to ensure all type combinations can have a weakness without the use of an ability, and Ghost/Dark had no weaknesses beforehand. I have a solution: make Ghost no longer resist Bug. Seriously, Ghost resisting Bug might possibly be the most obscure type matchup in existence. What logic does that even make? Probably none! If that happens then Ghost/Dark can be weak to Bug which I am fine with.

I think part of it is to do with the fact that they introduced Yveltal in that generation, which would be neutral to both of Dark's existing weaknesses (although gaining all of Flying-type's ones).

Ghost resisting Bug is clearly a holdover from Gen I when they messed up the type chart - Bug, Ghosts > Psychic because people are scared of those, but Ghost resists Bug as ghosts aren't scared of anything?

Now to add another thing to discuss since nobody brought it up: what possible teammate typings could be used to help protect Grass/Dark weaknesses? I have personally thought of Poison mons since those resist, well, all of Dark's weaknesses.

Eternatus and Zacian (they're so OP haha but about time something could be as defining as Groudon and Kyogew).

Eternatus resists Fighting, Poison, Bug, and Fire whilst only being weak to Ice or that bunch. Poison coverage gets the Bugs and Fairies out of the way (with Flamethrower for Zacian), Dragon hits everything else for neutral.

Zacian meanwhile is immune to Poison, resists Bug and Flying, and hits Ice and Fairy super-effectively with STAB. It does share the Fire weakness however.

Grass / Dark resists both of the above's Ground weakness too.

Galarian Slowbro / Slowking (Poison-Psychic) have great offensive and defensive synergy - Dark-Grass absorbs their Dark, Fairy, Ghost, and Ground weaknesses whilst the Slow's STAB hit Bug, Fairy, Fighting, and Poison super effectively. Their insane coverage takes care of Fire, Flying, and Ice easily (although not necessarily all at one - I'd ignore Ice).

 

[Sweet Serenity]

Agrees on abilities and moves mattering. Hinges on making them matter. How often does Sun make sense for a team in a playthrough setting? Maybe in certain monotypes.

It can work in a playthrough setting quite well depending on what team you have. Type wise, Fire-type and Grass-type Pokémon benefit the most from Sunny Day/harsh sunlight. Sunny Day powers up Fire-type moves by 50% and activates many abilities that Grass-type Pokémon often have such as Chlorophyll, Leaf Guard, Flower Gift, and so on, as well allowing Solar Beam and Solar Blade to hit on the first turn. Thus, if your team has a Fire-type and Grass-type Pokémon, then Sunny Day can be very useful. However, Sunny Day also reduces the power of Water-type moves by 50%, which can be bad if you have Water-type Pokémon, but good if you're facing a trainer with Water-type Pokémon. If you must switch into that Water-type Pokemon, I recommend a Pokémon that it is fast and can learn Rain Dance, have the ability Drizzle, or perhaps a secondary typing that can be effective in the situation without using Water-type moves.

(Honestly disliked Empoleon's typing for doing that. Netted it tons of resistances at the cost of being worse against Fire, Ground, and usually Rock. Became a good Steel Pokemon, but a rough Water Pokemon, if that makes sense.)

Wouldn't you say that Empoleon's typing makes it better against Rock-type Pokémon? Both Water-type and Steel-type are super effective against Rock-type and Steel-type gives Empoleon a resistance to Rock-type attacks.

Specified "outside of constructed teams and Dynamax" for that reason.

Yes, you did. Sorry about that. I either misread or skimmed through it too quickly.

Faces a lot of competition for Sun sweeper. Sits about on par with Victreebel. (Slightly higher offenses, lower speed, smaller movepool, but also Weather Ball.) Says nothing about the higher regarded Chlorophyll sweepers (Venusaur, as you mentioned).

Victreebel is good too depending on the role that you want. Victreebel is just completely outclassed by Venusaur, but it can do everything that Venusaur can do as a physical attacker rather than a special attacker. It would be good for taking down those Fairy types just like Venusaur. (Personally, I hope Victreebel returns in Pokémon Scarlet and Violet. I would love to use one of my very old, long-time favorites again). Shiftry would be good at taking down those Ghost and Psychic types. Either way, Venusaur is ultimately the best sun sweeper to use, as we both agree on.

Stands corrected on acceptable Trick Room speed. Misremembered them as being slower. Happens to be even with Machamp. Was definitely slow enough, particularly with an appropriate nature and IVs.

Yep, and to make the most of it, you can breed one with 0 Speed IVs and don't give it any Speed EVs as well.

Concurs with Cacturne having few options. Is that enough offense for a Trick Room team, though? Considers 115 offenses without an offensive item OR offensive ability underwhelming next to other Pokemon.

Yes it is. The average Attack stat for a fully-evolved Pokémon is 90 and 83 for Special Attack. 115 is definitely enough to sweep. Sure, there are better options out there, but it can definitely do some damage. For reference, Zarude is a great physical sweeper with 120 Attack, especially after a Bulk Up boost. If that's true for Zarude, then imagine a sweep from Cacturne with 115 Attack after Swords Dance. However, it's always wise to boost before a sweep no matter what, whether with an ability, item, status move, move effect, weather, terrain, and so on.

(Typed a lot more text than planned.)

One thing that I love about your posts is that you put a lot of effort and thought into them. 😊