How to make Ash more interesting/Badass ????

[Famon]

Well , The title explain everything !
BW Series took Ash to a new level of Lameness .
So , Is there anyway he could ever redeem himself ????

 

[ilias_]

First of all I don't think that Ash was lame in the BW series. I don't think they need to change him in X&Y. He made it to the Top. 8 in the Unova League and that means he is strong. There are other trainers that are stronger than him and this is interesting cause I wouldn't like to see Ash winning every tournament and League. He is not a Pokemon Master yet and that keeps the anime alive.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Yeah, after they reset him at the start of Best Wishes.

Anyway...
1. MAKE HIM GROW UP!!!
2. Make him evolve his Pokemon (except for Pikachu, Bulbasaur and maybe Oshawott)
3. No longer make him lose to a beginning trainer with a level 5 Snivy
4. Give him a girlfriend or two (advancepearlshipping pls)
5. Make him win a League.

However, knowing them it'd probably never happen.

 

[Famon]

First of all I don't think that Ash was lame in the BW series. I don't think they need to change him in X&Y. He made it to the Top. 8 in the Unova League and that means he is strong. There are other trainers that are stronger than him and this is interesting cause I wouldn't like to see Ash winning every tournament and League. He is not a Pokemon Master yet and that keeps the anime alive.

Lets See-

-He lose to a complete Rookie 3 time in a Row !

-Failed to win every single Tournament in Unova .

-Forgets every important detail .

-Lose to a complete idiot who didn't even brought a 6th Pokemon !

This ain't fine !
This is LAME !
THIS ARE HUMILIATING !
Saying those aren't lame is same as showing a ''Rat'' and trying to convince people that this is an ''Elephant'' !!!!
You're talking about being Top 8 in Unova !
Ash reach Top 4 in sinnoh League and he was the only trainer to beat Darkrai !
Compare to that , This Stinking Top 8 in Unova League is just LAMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
Unova League didn't even had strong rival like Sinnoh yet Ash suffer worst possible Defect .
Even Trip's first round defect was more dignifying then this !
Nope ,This Ash has to change no matter what !!!

 

[ilias_]

Lets See-

-He lose to a complete Rookie 3 time in a Row !

-Failed to win every single Tournament in Unova .

-Forgets every important detail .

-Lose to a complete idiot who didn't even brought a 6th Pokemon !

This ain't fine !
This is LAME !
THIS ARE HUMILIATING !
Saying those aren't lame is same as showing a ''Rat'' and trying to convince people that this is an ''Elephant'' !!!!
You're talking about being Top 8 in Unova !
Ash reach Top 4 in sinnoh League and he was the only trainer to beat Darkrai !
Compare to that , This Stinking Top 8 in Unova League is just LAMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
Unova League didn't even had strong rival like Sinnoh yet Ash suffer worst possible Defect .
Even Trip's first round defect was more dignifying then this !
Nope ,This Ash has to change no matter what !!!

- There are other trainers out there too, apparently stronger than Ash. Just because he has a history doesn't mean he is too strong. And he began his journey in BW with Pikachu, which he is not too strong imo either.

- The writers wanted to make some other trainers look good too. By letting Ash win every tournament, they had to make him win the league too , which is something that won't happen.

- Ash makes mistakes. He is not perfect. Of course he knows stuff but there are not only types advantages in the anime like the game(if you're talking about that mistakes he does)

- Cameron is not an idiot. He was so funny when he forgot to register and didn't bring a 6th Pokemon with him lol I enjoyed it. And please, Cameron and Riolu were so close to each other just like Ash and Pika and evolving into Lucario was just because he didn't want his trainer to lose. Pikachu did its best but Lucario was stronger.

- Every region is different. Just because he did better at a previous League doesn't mean he has to win everytime. You can't compare the Sinnoh League with Unova's 'cause he didn't use the same Pokemon.

They can't change Ash personality or spirit. If he wants to win the next League he has to train harder and stay focus. :)

 

[Famon]

- There are other trainers out there too, apparently stronger than Ash. Just because he has a history doesn't mean he is too strong. And he began his journey in BW with Pikachu, which he is not too strong imo either.
:)

Really
Ya There other strong trainer too But it doesn't mean Ash had to lose a complete rookie 3 time in a row ! if he has to lose then there are other better choice !
Pikachu is Ash's longest partner and Ash has 5 year experience.
That all anyone need to beat a Complete rookie .
ASH SHOULDN'T EVEN NEED TO BRING HIS OAK POKEMON JUST SO HE COUBLE BEAT A ROOKIE !

- The writers wanted to make some other trainers look good too. By letting Ash win every tournament, they had to make him win the league too , which is something that won't happen.

SO DOES THAT MEAN ASH SHOULDN'T WIN A SINGLE LONG TERM INDIVIDUAL TOURNAMENT !
While someone like Trip win something like Junior Cup without getting touch just because some Love-story he has with Alder !
Thats Your idea of Fairness ????
If Writer was Fair then he would make Trip lose that Junior Cup so he can learn that there are other strong trainer for he to deal with before he can face Alder .
If Writer were fair then they would make Cameron lose because its his fault for not bring a 6th pokemon ! Why should Ash pay for it ?? Just to be funny ??? This worst sense of Humor Ruined Pokemon .
Ya , Ash shouldn't win all Tournament but that doesn't mean he shouldn't win any Tournament .
You talking about Writer wanting to make other trainer look good !
Well , But doesn't mean Writer has to make Ash a Punching Bag for them .
Pokemon isn't Your slice of Life Drama show like ''One Tree hill'' Or ''Honey & Clover'' that focus on All character's life ! Its a simple Kids Anime about A Boy reaching his Goal !!!
In Here , Friend exist only to support the Boy and rival exist to drive the Boy toward his Goal .
They doesn't exist to fulfill their Own goal .
That how Original Kento Series Worked and its still the most popular Pokemon Series !

- Ash makes mistakes. He is not perfect. Of course he knows stuff but there are not only types advantages in the anime like the game(if you're talking about that mistakes he does)

Ya , Everybody make Mistake but they learn from it and doesn't make the same mistake twice!
But BW Ash doesn't Learn anything from his Mistake ! He just kept making it Over & Over !

- Cameron is not an idiot. He was so funny when he forgot to register and didn't bring a 6th Pokemon with him lol I enjoyed it. And please, Cameron and Riolu were so close to each other just like Ash and Pika and evolving into Lucario was just because he didn't want his trainer to lose. Pikachu did its best but Lucario was stronger.

Oh , Someone who doesn't even know that Full battle is a 6 vs 6 battle isn't an idiot !
So , Should we call him a genius ?????
Sometime I wonder if Cameron was rookie like Trip Which would mean Ash lose the league to another newbie !!!!
And Ya , Cameron has great bond with his Pokemon .
But same goes for Ash too ,
It totally unacceptable that Ash isn't even capable of beating Cameron with 6 Vs 5 advantage ! FORGOT ABOUT FAIR MATCH !
That is LAME !
This prove BW Ash is so lame that even a idiot is capable of beating him without using his full power and full Team !
Forget about Ash being a match for Virgil .
Writer just indirectly shown that Virgil would have take Ash down with 2 Pokemon .
FYI : Don't even dare to put Virgil same page as Trobias .

- Every region is different. Just because he did better at a previous League doesn't mean he has to win everytime. You can't compare the Sinnoh League with Unova's 'cause he didn't use the same Pokemon.

Expect , Unova League didn't had strong competitor like Sinnoh !
If Ash capable of dealing with them then he should been good enough to be Top 4 with or without Oaked Pokemon !

They can't change Ash personality or spirit. If he wants to win the next League he has to train harder and stay focus.

Oh Please ,
If It was original Ash then he would so ashamed losing the Unova League like this that he would start serious Training rather then going on another fan Vacation !
Its a good thing to accept defect but that doesn't does mean Ash should lose his Self-respect Because there are nothing to be proud of in his Defect in Unova League .
Thats what Original Ash & DP would Do .
This BW Ash dosn't seem to have any winning spirit.
It feel like that he just talk Big about Reaching his Goal but he not really Serious about reaching his Goal !

I prefer Original Ash over it who can't accept being defected and always come back for a rematch !

 

[Aquacorde]

For god's sake, please stop shouting and automatically disregarding any opinions that differ from yours without a thought.

Ash certainly stagnated a bit in BW, but then again so did everyone else. He needs his creativity and spontaneity back, and we need on-screen development of him, his Pokémon, and his relationships with them.

In similar news, the sky is blue.

 

[ZeroX5]

I don't really know what more they can do with Ash to be honest. I mean, he's not allowed to win a real regional league (I don't count Orange Islands sorry), so if BW is any indication he's just gonna keep fluctuating in ranks in the leagues. Sometimes he'll place higher, other times he'll place lower. And depending on what the group dynamics, will effect his perceived growth in maturity as well.

It's looking over it like this that makes you realize that Ash really isn't ever going to accomplish anything really significant. Poor guy, just a slave to marketing. :P

 

[Alloute]

It would be awesome if Ash actually remembered things. I hated that he forgot the basics when the current saga started. It would also be cool if he evolved more of his Pokemon, not all of them because I get that some un evolved Pokemon can be cute, but does he really need a Scraggy on his team? No thanks he should have evolved into an awesome Scrafty a long time ago. I also wish his English voice actress would work harder to not sound so robotic but that's prolly a whole other issue lol.

 

[Satoshi Ookami]

Saying those aren't lame is same as showing a ''Rat'' and trying to convince people that this is an ''Elephant'' !!!!

By using specific suggestion you can hypnotize anyone to think that rat is elephant.
Or you can just change information in sympathetic nerves.
Changing the perspective isn't that hard.

On-topic... you know that nothing you say or do affect anime anyhow and you still feel the need to keep repeating the same... this is seriously obsession...

 

[Famon]

-AG Ash was too Adult-like , Hot-tempered and too Overconfident !

-DP Ash was strong & Competent But he was too Formal & too Gentle .

-BW Ash doesn't even act like a 10 year old boy , He act like 4 year little girl ! Not to mention he kept all his bad side while losing all his good side .

We need An Ash ketchum who act like a Real playful Young Boy that act childish but seem more wiser then other character !!!
Furthermore , His Ego has to be as Big as his actual skill .
Example : This guy-

https://shokugekinosoma.wikia.com/wiki/Sōma_Yukihira

 

[Orifiel]

That would be easy in my opinion.
He should stop being too nice, have a sense of fashion
and have a better purpose than being a Pokemon Master.

 

[Famon]

I Believe The Anime should fix Ash's expression first !
With right expression at right time , Ash wouldn't need to be incompetent to be hilarious !
Example-

-1) When Ash Will act oblivious Or Clueless :

Spoiler:

-2) When Ash will be annoyed or scolding someone-

Spoiler:

-3) When Ash will be Serious Or he's being challenge :

Spoiler:

-4) When Ash will be sarcastic and teasing Someone :

Spoiler:

5)When Ash be will Angry :

Spoiler:

-6) When Ash will be excited :

Spoiler:

There no point If Ash just some random funny face like in BW Series !
Ash has to show right expression at right time

 

[ZeroX5]

@ EternallyAnna

What steps do you think the writers could take to make Ash a more interesting character? Knowing that, 1. He'll never age, 2. He's not allowed to win Pokemon League's, given there no longer seems to be a pattern of his placement anymore as seem in Best Wishes, and 3. He's probably not ever going to get written off.

Other than putting him in mentor roles until the series ends, I can't think of anything. Because even then the writers will come up with some road-block from him to lose the league, and have him spew that he's "going to get even stronger" for the billionth time lol.

 

[Aquacorde]

Well first I really think his goal should transition from "becoming a Pokémon Master/winning a league for god's sake" and just straight up admit that he wants to explore the world and meet all the Pokémon he can. He's not going to be cut out for research, but he's the perfect one for rugged exploration. And he really really loves Pokémon. He'd still try to be the best trainer he can be and compete in the leagues, but that goal would be more acceptable to people as a reason why he keeps going. And it kind of frees the writers from the pressure of figuring out what they should do about him in leagues. This would allow for more fluctuation- he's a wonderful trainer, but there will just be people better than him sometimes.

I'd also like a better rotation of Ash's Pokémon. Pikachu really should hang back for a season or two- he'll be there, but less of a battler. It seems like Pika's been getting a hell of a lot of screentime, but I think I get that impression because Ash's other 'mon aren't. And when you see more of Ash's 'mon, you see more of Ash. You see more of his training styles and his ever-growing relationship with his Pokémon. A lot of what makes a character appealing and interesting is their relationships to others. I feel like BW has treated Pokémon more like battle-tools rather than intelligent beings with personalities and feelings of their own.

Both of these can easily coincide with Ash returning to his AG-style mentor role. He may be forced to be constantly the same age as the people he will be mentoring (unless we have another Max), but he will still retain his experience and wisdom of previous sagas and be more adept than the rookies. I do imagine it will be easier for the writers to disregard BW001 and simply reinstate the implicit ageing if that's the direction they choose to go in.

 

[ZeroX5]

This would allow for more fluctuation- he's a wonderful trainer, but there will just be people better than him sometimes.

In terms of the fluctuation aspect. I feel the writers should keep his rivals as having the same experience as him. One of my biggest problems with BW was Trip, and how he was always one-step of Ash despite Ash having vastly more worldly knowledge. With Paul it made sense, given that he had been through the same amount of regions Ash had at the time. The same applies to Cameron as well, because it was his first league, yet he defeated Ash while only using 5 Pokemon and being more of a scatterbrain than Ash is.

It seems that in BW he was, in a sense "sidelined" to show of other characters in big settings, i.e the Don Tournaments/Junior Cups. Through those he was put in situations where he couldn't realistically win (Pikachu vs Excadrill, and Scraggy vs Montgomery's Troh), or instances where they OP'd Pokemon (Pignite vs Serperior in the Junior Cup). They also had his last gym battle, for the first time, being a 6 vs 3, in which he barely won. Some people attribute this to "trying new things, outcomes, or circumstances", but I don't think it was wise to do these at the expense of Ash.

Both of these can easily coincide with Ash returning to his AG-style mentor role.

Thing is though, I don't know how long that they'd continue him in that role. BW seemed to return to a psuedo-Kanto dynamic with Ash, and Cilan playing the fools...while Iris played the straight-man, much like the Ash/Misty/Brock dynamic was. In this kind of dynamic, Ash doesn't seem like he is truly allowed to show what makes him unique, at least IMO. Whereas in a dynamic like Ash/May/Max, or even Ash/Dawn/Brock, it's clearly shown. In that sense, who Ash is, really depends on the group make-up. If the writers get bored of his mentor role, they could easily just switch it back to the "two gym leaders from games" traveling with him, in which he kinda comes across as a scatter-brain.

 

[Aquacorde]

In terms of the fluctuation aspect. I feel the writers should keep his rivals as having the same experience as him. One of my biggest problems with BW was Trip, and how he was always one-step of Ash despite Ash having vastly more worldly knowledge. With Paul it made sense, given that he had been through the same amount of regions Ash had at the time. The same applies to Cameron as well, because it was his first league, yet he defeated Ash while only using 5 Pokemon and being more of a scatterbrain than Ash is.

Agreed. When Gary was focused on as a rival, he seemed way too far ahead of Ash to make it a fair competition (despite also being an apparent beginner). But he began with the advantage of growing up as Professor Oak's grandson and had a head start- it became clear later that Ash has an untapped talent. Indigo saw Ash become indirectly better than Gary and by the end of their time, Ash proved he had advanced far enough to be on Gary's level and better him in a direct match. They were essentially equal in terms of experience the whole way through. That was like.. the first key rivalry. They grew up together and advanced to a point where they noticeably matured from being complete rookies. No other character will be able to have this dynamic with Ash.

With Paul, they didn't begin together. They were both in the position of fairly experienced but nowhere near fully fledged. And that dynamic was interesting because they hardly understood each other for a long time and were stubbornly set in their own ways. This dynamic could be re-used in a way- semi-experienced trainers who butt heads over something or another. The specific amount of experience wouldn't need to be stated; if Ash is held in after-Johto limbo, that's fine to create a fairly equal rivalry.

But they can't try to completely re-use Paul. That's what I think they were going for with Trip, but realized it and went "whoa whoa wait we can't do that; it doesn't work in this version". And then they were at a loss as to what to do with him and he just kind of... melted away into a level even below the friendly rivals. He (more so than a typical BW character) was severely shafted in terms of any kind of development. His history and obsession with Alder is reminiscent of Cheren's, and with Cheren not being around he could have taken that storyline and ran with it. Imagine a Cheren-type rival in relation to Ash: analytical, serious, obsession with power due to believing the meaning of training Pokémon is to be the very best. (Like Alder said: and then what? This is a question Ash should have explored more fully). Pitting that type of person- with natural ability and striving for power- against an OS-BW Ash could have created an interesting dynamic removed enough from that of his with Paul's. And they would have been closer to the same level- Ash at his post-Johto level and Trip as a fast-paced power pursuer. Ash has the initial advantage, sure, but it's not impossible for Trip to catch up.

Cameron was Unova's Ritchie. Energetic boy introduced late in the saga who makes friends with Ash and subsequently defeats him in tournament. This is not an interesting dynamic. Their battle did not showcase what they had leaned about or from each other. It was not an epic rival confrontation- it was a standard tournament battle. And I feel like that's because the characters did not get enough significant interaction time.

It seems that in BW he was, in a sense "sidelined" to show of other characters in big settings, i.e the Don Tournaments/Junior Cups. Through those he was put in situations where he couldn't realistically win (Pikachu vs Excadrill, and Scraggy vs Montgomery's Troh), or instances where they OP'd Pokemon (Pignite vs Serperior in the Junior Cup). They also had his last gym battle, for the first time, being a 6 vs 3, in which he barely won. Some people attribute this to "trying new things, outcomes, or circumstances", but I don't think it was wise to do these at the expense of Ash.

Also agreed. While it would be nice for the writers to tone down Ash's involvement and spotlighting, it has to be when he is in position to let others take the stage. OS-BW Ash is far to "fresh" and developing to be able to step back. AG-DP Ash is experienced enough for it to be fine for May/Dawn to come forward with her story, goals, and characterization. He doesn't need as much focus to progress in those arcs.
But a second thing is that there needs to be a character that can handle the spotlight. In BW, the characters they tried to spotlight were 4-7 friendly rivals plus the main cast. That's spreading the focus pretty thin, and while characters can be significantly developed that way, it's really hard. Lots and lots of characters all rotating through the spotlight leaves so little time for major developments. The best way to do that is probably focus on like... four maximum and develop the rest on the side, through the catalyst of the mains.

The battles are a big problem as well. The skill of Ash's 'mon seems very inconsistent, reflecting their trainer. The skill of his opponents are incredibly varied. We should have seen significant advance by the time of the final gym, but we saw instead Ash battling with essentially the same methods he used in the first tournament. The lack of creativity and spontaneity in battle greatly reduced Ash's character, because those really are the things he's known for.

Thing is though, I don't know how long that they'd continue him in that role. BW seemed to return to a psuedo-Kanto dynamic with Ash, and Cilan playing the fools...while Iris played the straight-man, much like the Ash/Misty/Brock dynamic was. In this kind of dynamic, Ash doesn't seem like he is truly allowed to show what makes him unique, at least IMO. Whereas in a dynamic like Ash/May/Max, or even Ash/Dawn/Brock, it's clearly shown. In that sense, who Ash is, really depends on the group make-up. If the writers get bored of his mentor role, they could easily just switch it back to the "two gym leaders from games" traveling with him, in which he kinda comes across as a scatter-brain.

I feel like Kanto showed us more of who Ash is than BW. Ash was the innovative rookie, trying things out and falling on his face and trying something else. Misty kept his antics in check by straight up yelling at him that things were dumb and explaining why. Brock played mama and mediator. In this way, the focus was on Ash's development and those around him were encouraging it (in different ways).
Unova had Ash as the naiive rookie who started on vacation rather than an intentional journey. Iris as the "straight man" who hypocritically criticized Ash's ideas and actions without offering much constructive feedback; later this went on to discouraging Cilan's playfulness as well. Cilan himself offered little in the way of developmental assistance, preferring to observe rather than interfere. like a time lord That's- I mean that's his job, but still, it doesn't make for incredible character dynamics.

I feel like the writers just didn't leave room for expansion. They got Ash's reverted character down and then never let him learn or grow. It's fine to do a reset, it really is, but it needs to be more subtle than complete erasure. I feel like the "Ash and two gym leaders" thing could work well again on day, but the way Cilan and Iris were written, they were not the best companions to bring out Ash's innovation and talent. Ash could flourish in pretty much any kind of group dynamic, but he has to be allowed to do so rather than suppressed due to writers being afraid to advance him further.

**** this is meant to be about ash oh well

 

[Famon]

Writer should try to make Ash look like this !!!!
I mean , Black didn't act like a genius .
He also act like Scatter-brain , Sometime he act like bigger scatter-brain by shouting aloud that he will be a champion in random place's !
Yet , He shown be much more competent & Badass then Ash.
This lazy writer of Pokemon Anime should just go and learn to handle a protagonist from Hidenori Yamamoto (PokeSpe's Arthur)

 

[AzuGazer]

Writer should try to make Ash look like this !!!!
I mean , Black didn't act like a genius .
He also act like Scatter-brain , Sometime he act like bigger scatter-brain by shouting aloud that he will be a champion in random place's !
Yet , He shown be much more competent & Badass then Ash.
This lazy writer of Pokemon Anime should just go and learn to handle a protagonist from Hidenori Yamamoto (PokeSpe's Arthur)

i have to say, being the only person here that likes the series almost completely(except for a few things here and there in BW that i understand now) i like Ash almost just the ways he is.

Hes a kid who never give up and is way smart when it comes to battling (he keeps using tactics like they r going out of style, only losing to lenora :U)

his un-evolved Pokemon are super strong (look at what snivy does like all the time... u just know major damage is gonna happen when it comes out)

He is always concentrated on winning(he REALLY is always on the Gym shiz... or food)

He also can do Park-our anytime, anywhere :O (i don't really need to cite this... but the example is in the example cited below)

He has also had many times of being Awesome in the show and Movies (Example from a Movie: Pokemon Ranger and the Temple of the Sea, go to 1:25:00 forward and u should see em there. -3- i didn't even realize this scene till someone pointed it out., and the best part-- it's the same ash as always)

the way he is now, kids can still learn from him :U which is always a plus.

i guess an improvement to make him seem more Awesome would be to put him in more situation like the one i cited.

also, i don't know about Black. plz tell me his highlights (i don't read the manga)

(also i had to take out picture because of 15 post things)

 

[Dragon]

Hm, you know, I've been thinking about something for a while, but gathering from the mini rival discussion, I'll say this: do you know why I loved DP!Ash? It was mostly because of Paul. I mean, just look at Paul; he was the opposite of Ash in any way, and from this whole rivalry, I really loved the way Ash interacted with him. Like, honestly, when was the last time we've seen Ash Ketchum that emotional?

I mean, that's why I'd arguably say that Paul was Ash's best rival in the anime. Gary and Trip were fine, but, with Paul, it really seemed like Ash had something to more to prove... As has years of pokemon battling experience, but with Paul, it's like... he had a number of questions that needed answering, and only he could answer: how will he defeat Paul with his own style? Does he really understand pokemon strategies the way Paul does? That sort of thing. Being the other side of the same coin is a weird thing, and how you cope with that is tough. I think that's what Ash was going through, being so emotional when it came to Paul.

Here's another thought, I remember from watching the Hoenn arc during the livestream, Ash was pretty emotional after he first lost to Brawly; the Dewford gym leader. Ash lost to him. It made Ash rethink his stance with strategy, and how he understood his pokemon... I guess. But right after the battle, he told his friends to shut up; which was.. really unlike him to be so angry! But, then comes the question of.. why was Ash so angry when he lost to Brawly? I think what made Ash 'tick' was when he thought that Brawly was this really lazy, non-nonchalant guy, and wham, he underestimated him, and lost.

Hm, from that comes this conclusion of this ramble of mine... I think what makes Ash so interesting are the interesting people he encounters. It's like a synchronize effect with Ash, imo. The more interesting and deep people Ash meets, the more interesting Ash gets to cope with them. So, again, how can Ash become more interesting? He should battle more interesting people. And by 'interesting', I mean the people in the anime who have something deep within themselves. Maybe they don't have to be necessarily like Paul, but, maybe someone who rubs-Ash-the wrong way so to speak, and generally... steps outside Ash's general beliefs, putting Ash in some uncomfortable situations, so he has to prove himself.

Eh, sorry if this doesn't make sense. XD My wording isn't the beeest~