[News] Indie game banned from Twitch a year ago, dev still can't get a response

[Juno]

The developer of Yandere Simulator came out with another video yesterday on this topic, and the gist of it is that Twitch banned his game with no explanation, and a year later he still can't get a response from them. It's a pretty lengthy video, but he talks of the situation in a lot more depth (and tbh he's kind of funny in the really deadpan yet sarcastic kind of way, my kind of humor - I'd listen to him talk about bread for 20 minutes):

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At first glance, it may be 'obvious' to many as to why his game would be deemed inappropriate (if you haven't heard of Yandere Sim, the premise of it is you're this crazy girl with a crush on her "senpai", and the objective is to remove any other girls in his life that try to make a move on him), but he breaks it down with various other examples in his video, combing through Twitch's policies, and saying that his game, by their own written rules, does not violate their terms any more than many of the other games allowed on their platform.

Aside from demanding a response from Twitch and just hoping to talk with them on their issue with his game, the take home message of his video is that it's very easy for Twitch to shut down small games and devs without clearly communicating what they don't like about it, so even if you don't care about Yandere Sim, you should care if you're a fan or even a developer of indie games like it.

What do you think about his situation? Do you think Twitch is right to ban this game, or do you see the double standards he mentions - that it's okay for AAA games to feature nudity and violence, but smaller games with similar themes will be banned without question? Should they at least give him a formal explanation and work through any issues they have with his game (he has expressed that he's more than willing to change elements of his game if it would help him get unbanned, as long as it's not a crucial feature), or do they not owe this kind of response to anyone?

 

[yrmrku]

I haven't watched the video and will watch it later, but in regards to if Twitch has the right to ban games and not give responses, the answer is yes. Twitch is a private company, they can do whatever they want. Same with Valve, same with Youtube, same with any website.

Now, this doesn't mean I support Twitch's decision to arbitrarily ban games, nor do I think it's ok to lack transparency about decisions. But that's simply the reality of the situation. And it'll never change, because Twitch loses no money on these decisions to ban the occasional indie game.

My thoughts as to why it's banned is that Twitch probably thinks it'd get an AO rating if it got put up for evaluation. That might be Twitch's thought process, while other AAA games clearly have a M rating. And if that's the case, he needs to talk to someone who can evaluate the potential rating of his game, not Twitch. And it's possible simply the overall theme of the game is what makes it AO so it can't be bumped down, I'd believe that readily. (Like I said, didn't watch the video yet so he may have already speculated on this and had a response.)

 

[Arsenic]

I mean I would immediately ban it just on the principle the game is fully about assassinating minors. I would also ban any other game where the gameplay is solely about assassinating children or teens. And to boot I would ban any game that has even partial child or teenage nudity.

Why? Because these are not things a professional company should allow. I don't care if it's said to be "art" or whatever.

That's of course just my opinion. Dont unban that game, ban more games that prominently feature similar content.

 

[yrmrku]

I mean I would immediately ban it just on the principle the game is fully about assassinating minors. I would also ban any other game where the gameplay is solely about assassinating children or teens. And to boot I would ban any game that has even partial child or teenage nudity.

Why? Because these are not things a professional company should allow. I don't care if it's said to be "art" or whatever.

That's of course just my opinion. Dont unban that game, ban more games that prominently feature similar content.

I'm curious, do you believe the same about books, movies, etc? Or is it something specific about games that you believe there are things that shouldn't be displayed?

 

[Juno]

I haven't watched the video and will watch it later, but in regards to if Twitch has the right to ban games and not give responses, the answer is yes. Twitch is a private company, they can do whatever they want. Same with Valve, same with Youtube, same with any website.

Now, this doesn't mean I support Twitch's decision to arbitrarily ban games, nor do I think it's ok to lack transparency about decisions. But that's simply the reality of the situation. And it'll never change, because Twitch loses no money on these decisions to ban the occasional indie game.

My thoughts as to why it's banned is that Twitch probably thinks it'd get an AO rating if it got put up for evaluation. That might be Twitch's thought process, while other AAA games clearly have a M rating. And if that's the case, he needs to talk to someone who can evaluate the potential rating of his game, not Twitch. And it's possible simply the overall theme of the game is what makes it AO so it can't be bumped down, I'd believe that readily. (Like I said, didn't watch the video yet so he may have already speculated on this and had a response.)

On the same page as you, more or less - they definitely have no obligation to anyone if they choose to ban a game without a proper response, but yeah, I just don't like how this situation was handled, especially after seeing the dev's videos.

I knew of the game before and I thought it was amusing - wasn't a particularly huge fan of it, nor did I dislike it at all, but after watching this video and just looking at the dev's channel overall, it's so clear that he poured his heart and soul and all his free time into this game, and he's just so frustrated that he can't even talk to an employee at Twitch on working towards unbanning his game/clearing up misunderstandings.

Of course, at this point we only have one side of the story and I'm inclined to side with him until/if Twitch actually gives him a response. It's only been about a day and this video has gotten over a million views, so maybe he'll be heard this time.

I mean I would immediately ban it just on the principle the game is fully about assassinating minors. I would also ban any other game where the gameplay is solely about assassinating children or teens. And to boot I would ban any game that has even partial child or teenage nudity.

Why? Because these are not things a professional company should allow. I don't care if it's said to be "art" or whatever.

That's of course just my opinion. Dont unban that game, ban more games that prominently feature similar content.

Fair enough, and I think that's how Twitch should be if they're going to set rules on what content should be allowed - either ban all of the games that feature potentially offensive content or don't pick and choose what to ban. And I say "potentially" because, minor nitpick, but Yandere Sim is not actually solely about killing - murder is an option in "eliminating" your rivals, but there are also other options like getting them expelled from school, ruining their reputation with rumors or even just setting them up with a different boy so they leave yours alone. So in perspective I really don't think it's as "bad" as a lot of games that are allowed on Twitch - I can definitely understand the dev's frustration when games like South Park: Stick of Truth is allowed, where children are being anally probed - and despite the funny and lighthearted way they're presented, there are far darker and more mature themes in it; Danganronpa is a game where killing teenagers is the focal point, yet these high profile games are not banned. So their rules just seem to be applied quite subjectively.

 

[Aeroblast]

That's of course just my opinion. Dont unban that game, ban more games that prominently feature similar content.

Fat chance.

Why? $$$$$. YandereDev even said it in his video.

 

[Aisu]

I don't think a company should ban a game without warning or reason, honestly. Because a developer puts a lot of time into crafting it for the express purpose of others' enjoyment, so if it gets denied that, I believe that said developer is owed reason. That being said, there is something a little off about child nudity in a game as Arsenic said, but still I don't think they should've shut the creator down as they did.

 

[Captain Fabio]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh. Welcome to ethics and politics for the gaming industry...

I get why it would be banned and I understand the POSSIBLE implications it could have on a warped person watching it, but my question is, how is it different to them if they were playing it? Watching = Playing?
I realise that the biggest difference is it's free to watch someone play it on Twitch.tv (Ignoring usual costs of Internet, devices and so on), but still doesn't make that much of a difference in my opinion.​

 

[Hands]

I mean I would immediately ban it just on the principle the game is fully about assassinating minors. I would also ban any other game where the gameplay is solely about assassinating children or teens. And to boot I would ban any game that has even partial child or teenage nudity.

Why? Because these are not things a professional company should allow. I don't care if it's said to be "art" or whatever.

That's of course just my opinion. Dont unban that game, ban more games that prominently feature similar content.

Yeah 100% this. Anything that simulates violence against children for sexual pursuits should absolutely be banned.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Yeah 100% this. Anything that simulates violence against children for sexual pursuits should absolutely be banned.

So are you in agreement that South Park: Stick of Truth (plus its upcoming sequel) and the Danganronpa series should also be banned because they involve violence towards minors too? That's the double standards Yandere Dev was pointing out in his video, follow by your group as one of the possible reasons why his game got banned. He even explained that there are different alternatives to remove the competition other than violence, so you aren't forced to kill someone in-game (I mean, I thought options were suppose to be what everyone wants if they don't like motion controls *coughstarfoxzerocough*). Besides, he's willing to change his game in order to get it unbanned from Twitch so long it's not a key-important feature, so Twitch's lack of response sounds like a bad business tactic.

 

[Hands]

So are you in agreement that South Park: Stick of Truth (plus its upcoming sequel) and the Danganronpa series should also be banned because they involve violence towards minors too? That's the double standards Yandere Dev was pointing out in his video, follow by your group as one of the possible reasons why his game got banned. He even explained that there are different alternatives to remove the competition other than violence, so you aren't forced to kill someone in-game (I mean, I thought options were suppose to be what everyone wants if they don't like motion controls *coughstarfoxzerocough*). Besides, he's willing to change his game in order to get it unbanned from Twitch so long it's not a key-important feature, so Twitch's lack of response sounds like a bad business tactic.

I specifically said "for sexual motive" but we'll ignore that for now.

South Park is a terrible example, the children are not designed to represent or resemble real world children in any way shape or form. Nor are their literally thousands of would be paedophiles obsessed with South Park in the same way they are with loli and any anime based material that puts children in sexual, violent, or a mix of both, contexts and situations.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

South Park is a terrible example, the children are not designed to represent or resemble real world children in any way shape or form. Nor are their literally thousands of would be paedophiles obsessed with South Park in the same way they are with loli and any anime based material that puts children in sexual, violent, or a mix of both, contexts and situations.

Have you not heard about the controversy surrounding South Park requesting fan artists to draw yaoi fanart of two children for one of their episodes? Also, I would say the same thing with Pokémon, but no one at the Pokémon subforums are bothered by it despite my warnings about how creepy it is, which I find hypocritical.

 

[Hands]

Have you not heard about the controversy surrounding South Park requesting fan artists to draw yaoi fanart of two children for one of their episodes? Also, I would say the same thing with Pokémon, but no one at the Pokémon subforums are bothered by it despite my warnings about how creepy it is, which I find hypocritical.

It is creepy and if I was staff on the websites you listed there I would be cracking down on it, so please do not call me a hypocrite based on that.

South park had one weird fan who they openly rejected, there are a LOT of Anime that play up to paedophiles and the sexualisation of children. Obviously this game isn;t enjoyed only by paedophiles, and them enjoying it at all is only really a moral problem. It's the danger it'll push them further into acting on their urges because their core fantasies are being at least partly realised.

 

[Arsenic]

I'm curious, do you believe the same about books, movies, etc? Or is it something specific about games that you believe there are things that shouldn't be displayed?

Yes, I do believe so about books and movies as well. Again I will state its when things are solely about say killing or sexualizing children or what not. So if some children die during some horrible attack on a town in a book, that's perfectly ok with me. If the book on the other hand is about Herbert the middleschooler assassin, where the book revolves around him killing children, that is _not_ ok.

That works into my opinion on the game of subject in this thread. The game is about murdering highschoolers because some deranged weeaboo though that is a cute way to show your affection. It should be and rightfully is banned from Twitch. Hopefully Steam and all the other major websites too.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

It is creepy and if I was staff on the websites you listed there I would be cracking down on it, so please do not call me a hypocrite based on that.

South park had one weird fan who they openly rejected, there are a LOT of Anime that play up to paedophiles and the sexualisation of children. Obviously this game isn;t enjoyed only by paedophiles, and them enjoying it at all is only really a moral problem. It's the danger it'll push them further into acting on their urges because their core fantasies are being at least partly realised.

Then where were you when these two threads exist and people were voting for minors such as Lillie and Misty on the polls?

 

[Hands]

Then where were you when these two threads exist and people were voting for minors such as Lillie and Misty on the polls?

1) I'm a Discord mod, I'm not forum staff. I don't have any jurisdiction on the forums. As such, I have zero legitimacy in throwing my weight around in the forums.

2) If you see something like that that you perceive to be a problem you should use the report function or message a member of staff in private to highlight your concerns.

Either way, asking me why I did not act in a capacity I am unable to on a different section of the forum isn't really super relevant to the topic at hand, if you'd like to ask me about matters pertaining me and the forum my inbox is always open. I'd rather we didn't fully derail a thread over this.

 

[yrmrku]

So are you in agreement that South Park: Stick of Truth (plus its upcoming sequel) and the Danganronpa series should also be banned because they involve violence towards minors too? That's the double standards Yandere Dev was pointing out in his video, follow by your group as one of the possible reasons why his game got banned. He even explained that there are different alternatives to remove the competition other than violence, so you aren't forced to kill someone in-game (I mean, I thought options were suppose to be what everyone wants if they don't like motion controls *coughstarfoxzerocough*). Besides, he's willing to change his game in order to get it unbanned from Twitch so long it's not a key-important feature, so Twitch's lack of response sounds like a bad business tactic.

You're conveniently forgetting Danganronpa and South Park have been formally rated as M. Yet I doubt Yandere Sim could skimp down to an M rating. The more I think about it, the more I think Yandere Sim would be rated AO, just like all the other games Twitch has banned.

As Incineroar said, it's pretty clear Yandere Sim is an adult-oriented game because of it's gameplay combined with its cast of minors and adult-oriented games do not belong on Twitch as clearly stated by their ban on AO games. If you have a problem with Daganronpa and South Park being allowed on Twitch, you have a problem with the ESRB, not with Twitch.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

You're conveniently forgetting Danganronpa and South Park have been formally rated as M. Yet I doubt Yandere Sim could skimp down to an M rating. The more I think about it, the more I think Yandere Sim would be rated AO, just like all the other games Twitch has banned.

As Incineroar said, it's pretty clear Yandere Sim is an adult-oriented game because of it's gameplay combined with its cast of minors and adult-oriented games do not belong on Twitch as clearly stated by their ban on AO games. If you have a problem with Daganronpa and South Park being allowed on Twitch, you have a problem with the ESRB, not with Twitch.

Were you able to watch the whole video as you've mentioned in your previous post? The game's creator said he's aiming for an M-rated version and is willing to change things to get that rating, as long as it's not a key-important feature.

 

[Aeroblast]

You're conveniently forgetting Danganronpa and South Park have been formally rated as M. Yet I doubt Yandere Sim could skimp down to an M rating. The more I think about it, the more I think Yandere Sim would be rated AO, just like all the other games Twitch has banned.

As Incineroar said, it's pretty clear Yandere Sim is an adult-oriented game because of it's gameplay combined with its cast of minors and adult-oriented games do not belong on Twitch as clearly stated by their ban on AO games. If you have a problem with Daganronpa and South Park being allowed on Twitch, you have a problem with the ESRB, not with Twitch.

I don't see anything in the game that's explicit enough to give Yandere Simulator an AO rating as of yet. Games rarely get given an AO rating based on violence.

But that's not even the point that YandereDev is trying to make - that twitch didn't tell him why they banned the game so he's left guessing as to what to fix to get his game to be allowed to be streamed again (if possible), which is basically what he tried to do in the entire video.

 

[Juno]

I think it's the idea that these are teenagers in a school setting that upsets people, even though the violence isn't graphic and there is no sexual content. The only times you can see a "naked" character is during character creation and when your character goes to take a shower, and even then it's all obscured with steam and bubbles. From my understanding of it, to get an AO rating, the game would have to be very pornographic in nature, and it's certainly not that.

But as a couple others said, with kids/teens it's always a touchy subject - Twitch probably just wants to be more safe than sorry with this and preemptively banned it based on what it looks like. Do they have the right to do that? Absolutely. But I definitely see why it's upsetting for YandereDev and fans of the game if Twitch won't communicate with him about how he could go about fixing his game so it could be unbanned. I honestly don't think the premise of the game is bad enough to get it an AO rating - there's no sexual content, no violence more graphic than literally any other game, and killing children is not the focal point of the game. Even if it is, it's already been established by Danganronpa that a game that is all about murdering school teens inside a school does not warrant an AO rating.

Like yrmrku said, it's probably best if he just submits the game for an ESRB rating when it's done. I doubt they evaluate debug builds, lol.