Ladies First????

[LegendChu]

In today's modern world, where women are considered equal to men & Gender Equality is a seriously debated issue, does the term "Ladies First", still hold merit?

Should women be given preferential treatment, just because of their gender or should they be given an opportunity to first prove their worth & earn their place?

Pika Pika :chu:

 

[Nah]

Since the world is trying to move towards total (gender) equality, no, no one should be given any sort of preferential treatment because of their sex or gender, and that includes stuff like "ladies first".

 

[Her]

I'm more concerned with the notion that a person has to 'prove their worth' in order to have any sort of respect, or 'earn their place' for reasons other than their own existence.

 

[Nakuzami]

I agree with what Harley just said, lol. That was worded rather poorly in the original question.

And, I mean, "Ladies First" tends to refer to going through a door or to a chair in a social outing, because, y'know, it's not like women tend to get much preferential treatment elsewhere, hence the "it's about time we had this little thing called 'equality'" fuss that people seem to be making.

I don't really think the phrase is a bad thing. It's about being courteous, and courtesy is a-okay in my book. But people should be courteous to people in general, so the term is rather pointless. And if a guy says that to a girl that doesn't like it, she may as well just respond with "well, head in first then" bc sassiness is a-okay in my book too.

 

[gimmepie]

Nobody should receive preferential treatment over another human based on factors like gender or race and to promote such things is working backwards. If you want to be polite, hold the door for anyone. Be compassionate to humanity as a whole, not just one group of people.

 

[zakisrage]

I don't believe that women should be given preferential treatment since it undermines the whole concept of equality. We shouldn't favour one group over another. Remember, just because discrimination is positive doesn't mean it's okay.

Still, if a man holds a door for a woman or offers to help her with something, she shouldn't get offended.

 

[LegendChu]

I'm more concerned with the notion that a person has to 'prove their worth' in order to have any sort of respect, or 'earn their place' for reasons other than their own existence.

I agree with what Harley just said, lol. That was worded rather poorly in the original question.
And, I mean, "Ladies First" tends to refer to going through a door or to a chair in a social outing, because, y'know, it's not like women tend to get much preferential treatment elsewhere, hence the "it's about time we had this little thing called 'equality'" fuss that people seem to be making.

Ya, I understand what you mean, that phrase was actually just meant as a reference to the actual topic. What to do, I've never ventured into off-topic discussions before on this forum :P.

On a serious note though, what you guys are talking about is chivalry. Of course, that's not a bad thing at all.

But tell me, as a woman, have you ever offered a seat or opened the door for a man (not necessarily your bf/husband)? Or do you think, its always a man's duty to do that. And be honest!

And as a man, will you be offended if a lady does that? Will that hurt your male ego?

Pika Pika :chu:

 

[Sean]

I don't really care about ladies first anymore, neither does any sane human being similar to my age. It's a very outdated tradition that is probably going to die with the older generation.

What I expect is politeness. I'll hold the door for anyone after me if they need it or so on

 

[Exodrake]

"women are considered equal to men"

aha

ahahaha

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You should try being a woman sometime. Oh wait you can't (technically you can but that's a can of worms for a different topic), so you can't possibly fathom the sheer amount of sexism women still deal with today. The only women that don't get constant abuse from society are ones who conform to the VERY SPECIFIC MOLD that women are expected to fit. Sure laws have gotten far better, but we still get horribly mistreated if we aren't delicate, beautiful, super girly eye candy for men.

I cannot stand when men try to help me do anything. It is patronizing and insulting as hell.

 

[HamtaroTumin]

"women are considered equal to men"

aha

ahahaha

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You should try being a woman sometime. Oh wait you can't (technically you can but that's a can of worms for a different topic), so you can't possibly fathom the sheer amount of sexism women still deal with today. The only women that don't get constant abuse from society are ones who conform to the VERY SPECIFIC MOLD that women are expected to fit. Sure laws have gotten far better, but we still get horribly mistreated if we aren't delicate, beautiful, super girly eye candy for men.

I cannot stand when men try to help me do anything. It is patronizing and insulting as hell.

You need everyone's blessing. {:3}

 

[gimmepie]

I cannot stand when men try to help me do anything. It is patronizing and insulting as hell.

Ignoring all the other stuff that I blatantly disagree with (since that doesn't really belong in this thread), I really do have to say my piece here. A man offering to help you if you seem to be struggling, or hell, just to be nice, does not automatically mean we're assuming you can't do anything because you're female. Sometimes it might be patronising sure, but you're generalising way, way too much. A lot of the time we're just being nice. I'd gladly offer to help anyone, man or woman, if they looked like they needed a hand. It's not because I'm patronising, it's because I'm not an asshole.

 

[Kostas]

"women are considered equal to men"

aha

ahahaha

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You should try being a woman sometime. Oh wait you can't (technically you can but that's a can of worms for a different topic), so you can't possibly fathom the sheer amount of sexism women still deal with today. The only women that don't get constant abuse from society are ones who conform to the VERY SPECIFIC MOLD that women are expected to fit. Sure laws have gotten far better, but we still get horribly mistreated if we aren't delicate, beautiful, super girly eye candy for men.

I cannot stand when men try to help me do anything. It is patronizing and insulting as hell.

Women are treated wayyyy better than men. Also In my country all men MUST go to the army for 1 year. Women doesn't need to go to the army, why? That's right, the 2 gender are not equal.
Have a look at this.
https://thoughtcatalog.com/janet-bloomfield/2014/08/5-legal-rights-women-have-that-men-dont/

Spoiler:

 

[Exodrake]

You need everyone's blessing. {:3}

Perhaps my perception is skewed by what I put up with as a child. I wouldn't have the mental health problems that I have, if the world was truly egalitarian and no one expected anything different out of women and men. And I am definitely not alone. However, I see youths from your generation suffering from the same issues I did, except this generation has a platform of free speech to rant about it, and I did not as I did not have high speed internet as a child.

The problem is this: society likes men and women who behave exactly as society expects them to. As soon as anybody breaks this mold, they get lashed out at horribly. This problem occurs both for men and women, but this just means that gender inequality goes both ways. If the world was egalitarian, I would never get mocked because I like cologne, nor would men who like perfume.

I will reiterate that inequality goes both ways depending on the subject. Men suffer from discrimination too, on different fronts than women. None of this should happen.

I misspoke when I said I can't stand being helped by men at all. I should have stated that I hate when they rush to help me when I am capable of doing the task. When this happens, it is patronizing. If I need help I will seek it out. It's a different matter if it's a skilled task and I seek help from someone more skilled than me, female or male.

Perhaps my whole argument is moot though, because I am complaining about stereotypes, which I think every intelligent person agrees are terrible. I am just of the opinion that all people, regardless of [insert inherent trait they have no control over here], should be free to live their life in the way that makes them the happiest, so long as it is not destructive to others. Anyone who says to someone "you shouldn't be doing that, because you're [insert inherent trait they have no control over here]!" needs to stop. Please.

 

[Her]

Women are treated wayyyy better than men. Also In my country all men MUST go to the army for 1 year. Women doesn't need to go to the army, why? That's right, the 2 gender are not equal.
Have a look at this.
https://thoughtcatalog.com/janet-bloomfield/2014/08/5-legal-rights-women-have-that-men-dont/

Spoiler:

Certainly not picking on you, I just figured I'd respond to the first person who inevitably brought up the 'women have more privilege' line.

I can't explain away the suicide & homicide statistics, but I assume they're American statistics and I'll leave those two points to someone who wishes to answer them. I think all the aspects of your post are based on American sources, aside for your thoughts about the Greek military.

Most of it can be explained rather easily. Industrial accidents are naturally going to be heavily unbalanced in terms of gender because the sort of jobs that 'industrial accidents' apply to are going to be heavily populated by men. Women are generally shunned from those jobs because they're seen as manly positions. Combat deaths are the same kinda thing - women are seen as physically weaker and less capable, let alone the repugnant attitude of many a military man towards women in general. There are physiological differences in the genders that do mean most women aren't going to match up to most men at their respective physical peaks, but I think it'd be foolish to think that these differences are considered or even known by most people who call women weak or unfit for the army. It's got a lot more to do with the age-old stereotype of women being unfit for any physical labour other than childbirth or the like. Anyway, there's going to be far, far less women in a military than men. That's just how it is. In regards to your point about the Greek military, that's not women having a 'right', that's your country having a more negative view of women. I wouldn't want conscription for anyone, but that's beside the point.
Custody agreements are easily the most famous example that is brought up when people say Women Have More Rights and it's generally the easiest to disprove in terms of feminist theory. It's simple - women have long been stereotyped into the role of the caregiver, the mother. Longstanding gender roles are going to damage all involved on a societal basis, even though it often results in a win for the female parent. Wildly disproportionate custody rates are due to gender roles backfiring on men. Not much more to it than that.

As for the link you posted, I'll be brief as I can't reeeaallllyyy be bothered typing out much more on my phone.
1. I don't believe in circumcision either, but to compare it to female genital mutilation is a big no-no. Circumcision is an outdated practice in my eyes, but it at least has some health benefits and if not that, doesn't really have any adverse effects aside from possible social issues or whatever. When it comes to FGM, there are absolutely zero health benefits and the whole practice roots in outdated ideas about the female sexuality. More often than not, it's very damaging to a woman's physical health and can result in extreme damage to the genital area and various other health issues. Infections, cysts, menstrual issues, a possibility inability to get pregnant, chronic pain, etc. People are a lot more up in arms about FGM as while it is a forced procedure like circumcision, it is far, far more dangerous to a woman than circumcision is to a guy.
2. I don't know much about this as I haven't heard anything about it before, as I'm guessing it's an American issue. Obviously I don't agree with it but I can't say much more than that due to lack of knowledge. Over here in New Zealand, all you have to do to vote is get enrolled. That's it.
3. Again, an Americancentric point that I don't know much about. But that falls back on gender roles backfiring on men, rather than an explicit right afforded to women.
4. Already talked about.
5. I have no interest in entertaining horribly misguided thoughts about how women are treated in regards to rape. They are treated absolutely awfully on a societal scale and that's a fact. Men are also treated harshly by societal attitudes in regards to rape, but that comes down to gender roles and femininity again. The inability to see men as rape victims comes from people thinking only women can be raped, no man would ever be so weak to be in the place of a woman. It assigns the feminine position with inherent weakness. I might not be saying it right, but it is the general idea of feminine weakness and how people refuse to believe that a guy could be subjected to that.

I just thought it easier to take down the inevitable arguments early in the thread.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

There's trying to be polite to others and there's giving a specific gender preferential treatment, and letting women go first is not equality. The same applies to not hitting a woman when you're attempting self-defense from a female aggressor.

 

[Elysieum]

I must admit I find myself offering priority to women in small ways quite often. It makes me uncomfortable to be seated while a woman must stand nearby, for example.

Holding the door, falling behind at the escalator forms part of this as well. A part of me thinks this behaviour is incorrect, but it seems to be so ingrained that I usually don't even notice doing it immediately. I see now that treating women with an extra layer of care was a firm part of my upbringing. It may be a regional culture thing as well.

 

[LegendChu]

I guess this debate is getting really interesting, with equal inputs & arguments from both sides.

Funny part though is that I just noticed something, everyone who's replying, guys & ladies alike, conveniently sidestepped something I asked.

What you guys are talking about is chivalry. Of course, that's not a bad thing at all.
But tell me, as a woman, have you ever offered a seat or opened the door for a man (not necessarily your bf/husband)? Or do you think, its always a man's duty to do that. And be honest!
And as a man, will you be offended if a lady does that? Will that hurt your male ego?

So do I take it that everyone here believes in pre-defined gender roles or maybe doesn't want to admit it?

Pika Pika :chu:

 

[Her]

So do I take it that everyone here believes in pre-defined gender roles or maybe doesn't want to admit it?

I believe they exist, I don't believe in them.

 

[ShinyUmbreon189]

There's trying to be polite to others and there's giving a specific gender preferential treatment, and letting women go first is not equality. The same applies to not hitting a woman when you're attempting self-defense from a female aggressor.

That's how I am. I usually hold the door open if I see anyone coming in from where I was coming out. It's polite and if someone bitched about it I'd just think "fuck them" and slam the door in their face (male or female) in the future since they wanted to be an asshole about it.

On the 2nd note. I'd never hit a female but it's stupid that they have the advantage over men when it comes to this. I mean, some females are crazy and can fight better than men. I hate the idea that a female can beat down a man and the man can't defend himself because "you can't hit a lady".

 

[gimmepie]

So do I take it that everyone here believes in pre-defined gender roles or maybe doesn't want to admit it?

Baseless assumptions a good debate does not make. Don't put words into peoples' mouths.

To answer your question, if a woman offers to help me and I don't need it I politely decline. If a woman offers me help and I need it, I accept it. I don't follow stupid stereotypes, so no a woman offering her assistance or holding a door for me or whatever does not offend my "male ego".